[Kulong]

urofpersia, on Jan 2 2006, 11:16 AM, said:

I dont speak Vietnamese but the Thai language in both grammar and sounds is similar to Chinese family of languages. If you speak the southern Chinese languages it should be quite easy for you to pick up the language.

I was only talking about the superficial sounding of Thai, which is similar to Vietnamese, to untrained ears of course. I wasn't talking about anything deep and meaningful like grammar structure.

But of course, prior to me picking up a little Cantonese, I thought it, too, sounded like Vietnamese.

This post has been edited by Kulong: 03 January 2006 - 12:25 PM

[xng]

Jae, on Jan 3 2006, 10:48 AM, said:

And your mention of not able to speak Cantonese. Of course they can't. First of all, Cantonese is only a minority, whereas Teochews and Hakka are the majority. They all speak Thai and some of them, especially the eldest can speak their dialects. So far, I only came across one lady in her 60s, working in the sharksfin store, speaking Cantonese to a Malaysian and a Hong Kong customer while she also speak Teochew. She's just a minority I guess.
When I mean it looks like Hong Kong doesn't mean it looks exactly like Hong Kong and Cantonese-speaking. I think I used the wrong example to be referred to. Sorry about that. What I wanna mean is that Yaowarat area looks rather Chinese.

Regarding having been to KL. Yes, I have been there and I think it's a nice city. I haven't spent enough time there but I will next time.

Thanks xng for your understanding. Cheers

No problem ! From what I heard, most chinese in thailand cannot speak chinese in a conversation (in whatever dialect) unlike their counterparts in singapore/malaysia. It is just like most indonesian chinese, only a small minority can speak chinese dialects properly.

I haven't been to bangkok so I won't know how true it is. But one thing I like about thailand is that they don't face racial discrimination unlike indonesia/malaysia.

Jae,

Are you a thai chinese ? I know from discussion and history that the pure thais in northern thailand have fairer skin than the middle thailand (around bangkok area). Is it true ?

The southern thais (around pattani) are mostly malays and not ethnic tai.

This post has been edited by xng: 04 January 2006 - 08:06 PM

[xng]

urofpersia, on Jan 2 2006, 11:16 AM, said:

I dont speak Vietnamese but the Thai language in both grammar and sounds is similar to Chinese family of languages. If you speak the southern Chinese languages it should be quite easy for you to pick up the language.

The thai language is placed as one of the 3 branches of the sino-tibetan language family by some linguist ie.

1. Sino
2. Tibetan-myanmar
3. Tai

Yes, thai is similar to the southern chinese language as I have a thai friend who came to cantonese speaking area and in one year he could speak quite fluent but basic cantonese.

Thai language is

1. Tonal (as many tones as the southern chinese languages)
2. Richer set of endings (similar to southern chinese languages)
3. Mostly monotonic
4. Basic grammar is the same as sino except that the adjective come after the noun eg. chicken male (as in cantonese) instead of male chicken.
5. Numbering system from 0-9 is the same and sound similar to southern chinese dialects.

Vietnamese has been placed under mon-khmer by some linguist although it sounds quite close to the thai language to the untrained ear with similar grammar ie. adjective after noun. Han-viet part of vietnamese language would certainly belong to the tai branch if we ignore the basic khmer words.

This post has been edited by xng: 06 January 2006 - 10:52 AM

[Choco]

Quote

5. Numbering system from 0-9 is the same and sound similar to chinese especially cantonese.

I don't see how thai numerals are especially similar to cantonese..

Thai: nueng, song, sam, si, ha, hok, jed, bad, gau, sip

Cantonese: yat, yi, sam, sei, ng, lok, chat, pat, gau, sap
Hakka: ngit, ngi, sam, si, ng, liuk, chit, pat, giu, sip
Minnan: chit, ji, san, si, go, lak, chit, pat, gau, chap

[xng]

Choco, on Jan 5 2006, 11:00 AM, said:

I don't see how thai numerals are especially similar to cantonese..

Thai: nueng, song, sam, si, ha, hok, jed, bad, gau, sip

Cantonese: yat, yi, sam, sei, ng, lok, chat, pat, gau, sap
Hakka: ngit, ngi, sam, si, ng, liuk, chit, pat, giu, sip
Minnan: chit, ji, san, si, go, lak, chit, pat, gau, chap

If you write in pinyin, of course it look very different from a non-lingust point of view but when you speak it, it is very similar.

song in thai is just the character for siong in cantonese (meaning double).

Most similar are sam, si, huk, chet, bat, gau, sip.

The d final ending and t final ending are similar. if it is indeed d and not some pinyin error.

[urofpersia]

xng, on Jan 6 2006, 06:17 AM, said:

If you write in pinyin, of course it look very different from a non-lingust point of view but when you speak it, it is very similar.

song in thai is just the character for siong in cantonese (meaning double).

Most similar are sam, si, huk, chet, bat, gau, sip.

The d final ending and t final ending are similar. if it is indeed d and not some pinyin error.

I wasn't going to get into this but I must say I don't especially see Thai as being more similar to Cantonese compared to the other Southern langauges even when spoken.

Choco didnt exactly write in Hanyu Pinyin either, I am sure you can tell.

Let's go over it:

One 一 doesn't particularly correspond to any of the southern languages that I can see. If anything Minnan is closer.

Two 二 Again no particular similarity.

Quote

song in thai is just the character for siong in cantonese (meaning double).

Your basis for this? Spoken Thai may be very similar to Southern Chinese languages but its script certainly is not.

Three 三 If you know Hakka the tone and pronunciation in Thai is just about exactly like Hakka. The tone in Cantonese is different.

Four 四 Most similar to Minnan in tone and pronunciation, followed by Hakka where the tone is different. In Cantonese the pronunciation is distinctively different

Five 五No relation that I see.

Six 六 Different from all

Seven 七 In Thai its pronounce more like Jiet with short vowels and 't' so again I dont see how the Cantonese 'Chat' is any closer than the others.

Eight 八 again no particular similarity to Cantonese compared to the others

Nine 九 Minnan is closest followed by Cantonese which differs in tone.

Ten 十 Again no particular similarity among the three.

Cheers

[xng]

urofpersia, on Jan 5 2006, 09:50 PM, said:

I wasn't going to get into this but I must say I don't especially see Thai as being more similar to Cantonese compared to the other Southern langauges even when spoken.

Choco didnt exactly write in Hanyu Pinyin either, I am sure you can tell.

Let's go over it:

One 一 doesn't particularly correspond to any of the southern languages that I can see. If anything Minnan is closer.

Two 二 Again no particular similarity.
Your basis for this? Spoken Thai may be very similar to Southern Chinese languages but its script certainly is not.

Three 三 If you know Hakka the tone and pronunciation in Thai is just about exactly like Hakka. The tone in Cantonese is different.

Four 四 Most similar to Minnan in tone and pronunciation, followed by Hakka where the tone is different. In Cantonese the pronunciation is distinctively different

Five 五No relation that I see.

Six 六 Different from all

Seven 七 In Thai its pronounce more like Jiet with short vowels and 't' so again I dont see how the Cantonese 'Chat' is any closer than the others.

Eight 八 again no particular similarity to Cantonese compared to the others

Nine 九 Minnan is closest followed by Cantonese which differs in tone.

Ten 十 Again no particular similarity among the three.

Cheers

I don't want to debate this as this belongs more to the language section and it was discussed before in a thread on 'vietnamese is sino-tibetan?'. Anyway, i have changed it to mean 'similar to southern chinese dialects' instead of 'similar to cantonese'.

This post has been edited by xng: 06 January 2006 - 10:55 AM

[lanjingling]

In Thai there are 2 words for "one" : nueng is the current word, but they say "sip et" for "eleven", where "et" sounds a bit like the cantonese "yaat".
Thai also use 2 words for "two" (but in a different maner from putonghua "er" & "liang" ) : "song" means "two", but "yii sip"means "twenty" , with "yii" very similar to cantonese again.

[Choco]

Quote

4. Basic grammar is the same as sino except that the adjective come after the noun eg. chicken male (as in cantonese) instead of male chicken.

In Mandarin the adjective comes after the noun as well...
芒果乾 (Mango dried), it seems to be a common word in Taiwan.

[Kulong]

xng, on Jan 5 2006, 03:54 AM, said:

4. Basic grammar is the same as sino except that the adjective come after the noun eg. chicken male (as in cantonese) instead of male chicken.

What!?

Cantonese grammar is like Mandarin, adjective comes before the noun. I have limited Cantonese knowledge but here are some words that I do know just off the top of my head:

八婆, here 婆 is the noun while 八 is the adjective.
"lang lui" (pretty girl), lang is the adjective, lui is the noun.
"ha gwai" (black ghost), again, ha is the adjective, gwai is the noun.

Quote

In Mandarin the adjective comes after the noun as well...
芒果乾 (Mango dried), it seems to be a common word in Taiwan.

No. 芒果乾 is "mango jerky", here "mango" is describing what kind of jerky it is, therefore mango is adjective while mango is noun, although the whole thing, "mango jerky" should really be a noun itself.

[xng]

Kulong, on Jan 7 2006, 05:40 AM, said:

What!?

Cantonese grammar is like Mandarin, adjective comes before the noun. I have limited Cantonese knowledge but here are some words that I do know just off the top of my head:

This has become a language thread instead of the original thai chinese thread.
I have moved it to the language help section as there are more linguists there to discuss.

Cantonese is similar to mandarin mostly but there are a few nam-viet influence from the tai group ie. it is chicken male and not male chicken.

This post has been edited by xng: 07 January 2006 - 10:29 AM

[lifezard]

xng, on Jan 5 2006, 05:54 PM, said:

The thai language is placed as one of the 3 branches of the sino-tibetan language family by some linguist ie.

1. Sino
2. Tibetan-myanmar
3. Tai

Yes, thai is similar to the southern chinese language as I have a thai friend who came to cantonese speaking area and in one year he could speak quite fluent but basic cantonese.

Thai language is

1. Tonal (as many tones as the southern chinese languages)
2. Richer set of endings (similar to southern chinese languages)
3. Mostly monotonic
4. Basic grammar is the same as sino except that the adjective come after the noun eg. chicken male (as in cantonese) instead of male chicken.
5. Numbering system from 0-9 is the same and sound similar to southern chinese dialects.

Vietnamese has been placed under mon-khmer by some linguist although it sounds quite close to the thai language to the untrained ear with similar grammar ie. adjective after noun. Han-viet part of vietnamese language would certainly belong to the tai branch if we ignore the basic khmer words.

that s not correct!! almost all except the linguists from mainland China do not support placing Tai in Sino-Tibetan. The reason being, many, many cognates of Tai to Chinese is generally to Chinese alone, and not to other members of Sino-Tibetan.

When comparing basic terms between Tai, Tibeto-Burman and Chinese you will see many terms that corresponds between Tai and Chinese with no cognates on the Tibeto-Burman side, and those that corresponds between Tibeto-Burman and Chinese, but no cognates on the Tai side

[qrasy]

lifezard, on May 26 2006, 04:33 PM, said:

that s not correct!! almost all except the linguists from mainland China do not support placing Tai in Sino-Tibetan. The reason being, many, many cognates of Tai to Chinese is generally to Chinese alone, and not to other members of Sino-Tibetan.

I've never seen non-Chinese linguists placing Tai in Sino-Tibetan, except some very old works.

Quote

When comparing basic terms between Tai, Tibeto-Burman and Chinese you will see many terms that corresponds between Tai and Chinese with no cognates on the Tibeto-Burman side, and those that corresponds between Tibeto-Burman and Chinese, but no cognates on the Tai side

Oh. I thought that cognates between Tai and Chinese is very few? And many looks like loanword.
The numbers, for example, does not look as if it's a very old relationship with Chinese numbers.

[DearCoolZ]

here is an detailed article on the relationship between chinese and thai,one may want to lookat it.

http://ling.ucsd.edu...nks/handout.pdf

[lifezard]

qrasy, on May 31 2006, 04:15 PM, said:

I've never seen non-Chinese linguists placing Tai in Sino-Tibetan, except some very old works.

Oh. I thought that cognates between Tai and Chinese is very few? And many looks like loanword.
The numbers, for example, does not look as if it's a very old relationship with Chinese numbers.

yes, many look like loan-words, some are rather recent but a few are pretty ancient .. anyway I dun consider Chinese to be very typical Sino-Tibetan too (more a hybrid between Tibeto-Burman and a 2nd language group)