[MengTzu]

Hey all,

As far as I remember, this topic hasn't been done yet. I don't know about y'all, but there has always been a sort of rivalry between the two for me as I grew up -- my brother is a big fan of ROTK, and I'm a big fan of Outlaws.

For those unfamiliar with the abbreviations:

ROTK = Romance of Three Kingdoms, 三國演義, San Guo Yan Yi.

Outlaws = Outlaws of the Marsh, 水滸傳, Shui Hu Chuan.

Disclaimer: we are strictly talking about the elements in the novels, not the actual historical facts that the novels aim at describing.

Besides that, anything goes, let me begin.

1) Which copied which? Although both are by and large original novels, there are some identical elements that either one drew from the other or they both drew from the same source. Zhang Fei and Lin Chong both use the snake spear and both share some physical features; both Shu and Liangshan have the "Five Tiger Generals"; both Sun Quan and Song Jiang have two body guards that wield the halberds, etc. These similarities are very superficial, and it's certainly unfair to say that one is a "wannabe" of the other because of these superficial, "structural" (they relate to "peripheral" descriptions rather than central themes) similarities -- me and naruwan had a long debate about this. The problem is, according to tradition, Shi Nai En wrote the first part of Outlaws, and Luo Guan Zhong wrote the second part, and as you all know, Luo wrote ROTK. So while it seems natural to assume that Outlaws copied these details from ROTK because the latter depicted an earlier historical period (and some of the copied elements seem to indicate that ROTK is the source, as it would be unnatural that Guan Yu was copied from his descendant, Guan Sheng), it seems that Outlaws might have been written before ROTK! This is a great mystery indeed.

2) Which has the better warrior? This is basically impossible to determine, as the historical backgrounds they depict are many centuries apart, and none of the characters ever met in battle. While some might argue that Song have developed better martial art skills, some can easily argue that Han have knowledge of some martial art skills that were lost later and no longer known during Song. As pointless as it is to speculate, since this is all for fun, I'd say: ROTK often features generals who beat down others in one hit or a few hits, a proof of their valor, Outlaws often features heroes equally strong fighting in long melee that result in a draw. This doesn't solve who have the better fighters, but this does tell us the difference in how the authors portray martial art might. I'd say that each novel has its strength in portraying fighting: ROTK portray strong heroes with their conspicuous, shockingly huge feats of beating 5 gates and 6 generals by onself (Guan Yu), protecting a baby while fighting through a million troops (Zhao Yun), or stopping a million troops all by oneself on a bridge (Zhang Fei,) while Outlaws portray them through a variety of colorful and detailed, "smaller" events, like fighting a tiger (Wu Song -- this is not at all a "small" thing, but not as "big scene-ish" as the ones mentioned about ROTK above), pulling down a tree (Lu Shi Zhen), beating 17 Liangshan heroes with stone throwing skill (Zhang Qing), or taking on Li Kui (Zhang Shun.) Outlaws focus on artistically describing modes of fighting (one counted over 200 ways of fighting described in Outlaws, including use of particular weapons and military strategies.) Often time the outlaws fight in cooperation, and often time they meet opponents just as strong. So in Outlaws you don't often see scenes that are "supernatural" like in ROTK, but on the other hand, you see vivid and diverse descriptions of all kinds of martial art feats, like you would when you watch a Jet Li movie.

3) Which has the better super genius? This goes hands down to ROTK. Wu Yong cannot be compared to Zhuge Liang. Zhuge Liang is nearly a prophet -- his abilities make him almost god-like. Wu Yong, on the other hand, was the "wise guy" of a mafia gang, the genius of the common people. On the flip side, one might find Wu Yong more endearing, the street punk with so many tricks in his hat.

4) Which has better character descriptions? This should go to Outlaws. While ROTK created many great "types" -- the righteous hero Guan Yu, the genius Zhuge Liang, the loyal Zhao Yun, etc., the same type is usually not duplicated (you won't find two heroes of the Guan Yu type, for example.) In Outlaws, however, the characterization was so well done that you can find two characters of the same type yet you will find them completely different in particulars that you won't confuse them. For example, Wu Song, Li Kui, and Lu Shi Zhen are all the same type -- getting drunk, short tempered, courageous. Yet Wu Song appears as the young, untamed handsome hero who is at times self-righteous, was even once or twice flirtatious, with a dark and painful history filled with vengeance; Li Kui is the nearly psychotic, murderous barbarian who is yet so sincere and true that he is often the "no bs" guy who tells it like it is; Lu Shi Zhen is the brute on the surface, but a wise, cautious sage within (just look at how carefully he managed the rescue of Lin Chong, how he followed him and the people who tried to kill him for a long distance without being caught) who is also compassionate, a Bodhisattva in disguise (although Lu Shi Zhen also broke so many rules for a Buddhist monk). Overall, Outlaws has deeper character portrayal.

5) Which has the greater impact? This is a really tough one. ROTK seems to be the godfather of its genre, the historical epics (like The Epic of the Heroes of the Great Ming). In fact, I tend to believe (despite the tradition mentioned above) that Outlaws was written later than ROTK, and was one of the novel that was influenced by ROTK. Outlaws, on the other hand, influenced a variety of literary works: the "detective/judge" novels like Judge Bao is arguably influenced by it (the "non-fighting" leader leading a group of warriors); dramatic novels like Jin Ping Mei and Dreams of Red Chamber appear to be influenced by it (Jin Ping Mei, if I'm not mistaken, took a part of Outlaws and expanded it into a novel; Dreams was influenced by Jin Ping Mei; both novels seem to have some influence from Outlaws regarding in terms of the dramatic stuff); the Wuxia genre is heavily influenced by Outlaws (the heroic titles, the wandering, wine-drinking heroes; the fraternity; the seemingly bad, dangerous guys who are good inside; oh, and who can forget the constant fighting.)

Let's keep this a "fun" topic and not get too hyped up about it, even though there might be a rivalry between the fans. (I hope the voices of the fans of Outlaws don't get drowned out in number, as ROTK is clearly more popular and has more fans nowadays because of the many games that are made about it.)

[CARDINAL009]

M/Tzu,

Good topic and great job on comparison.

If there was a simulated conflict between selected RoTK characters & Water Margin Outlaws (Bandits), this Cardinal favors the RoTK on the attribute of superior intellect and record of accomplishments.

This post has been edited by CARDINAL009: 11 January 2006 - 07:09 PM

[naruwan]

I like to add on the characters. While 3K is written on a bigger backdrop, meanning it didn't focus on one small group of peole, and the events envolved entire fate of China during the 3K era, therefore it "probably" should have more characters than Outlaw of the Marsh, it was still able to depict very vivid characters that are hard to forget.

Liu Bei, Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Zhao Yun, Zhu Ge Liang, Jiang Wei were definately the center of the novel. However Zhou Yu, Cao Cao, Sun Quan, Zhang Liao and so on each had a very distinct character. In fact, to me 3K brought a lot more characters to life than Outlaw of the Marsh.

Eventhough Outlaw has 108 heros, to me only a few character really springs into head. Namely Song Jiang, Lu ZhiShen, Li Chong, Shi WenLong, Wu Song. A lot of the character feels like were just there to filll numbers.

However, those heros that got long devoted chapters on them created deeper characters than those in the 3K. For example Lin Chong, from being completely loyal to the government and was pushed over the edge. There are no such detailed describtion on one person's personal life in 3K. In 3K, you are cheering and feeling sad for a hero. In Outlaw, you are really cheering and feeling for a person. I feel that's the biggest difference between the two, characterwise.

Anotherthing is, Outlaw started the tradition to tie the story to gods being kicked out of heaven. Outlaw did it, relating to 108 stars. Then Journey to the West obviously did it. So did HongLouMeng. It became a trend to make main characters in the story more...... attractive?

[MengTzu]

naruwan, on Jan 11 2006, 10:48 PM, said:

I like to add on the characters. While 3K is written on a bigger backdrop, meanning it didn't focus on one small group of peole, and the events envolved entire fate of China during the 3K era, therefore it "probably" should have more characters than Outlaw of the Marsh, it was still able to depict very vivid characters that are hard to forget.

Liu Bei, Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Zhao Yun, Zhu Ge Liang, Jiang Wei were definately the center of the novel. However Zhou Yu, Cao Cao, Sun Quan, Zhang Liao and so on each had a very distinct character. In fact, to me 3K brought a lot more characters to life than Outlaw of the Marsh.

Eventhough Outlaw has 108 heros, to me only a few character really springs into head. Namely Song Jiang, Lu ZhiShen, Li Chong, Shi WenLong, Wu Song. A lot of the character feels like were just there to filll numbers.

:SPOILER alert:


Quite true. As you read through Outlaws, it seems like some characters are forced by the author (not by the government) to join the lair so they can fill up the 108 roster. It feels the same (in the opposite manner) near the end of the novel when a lot of characters are killed off (more than half of the heroes died in the last 10 chapters) to create the tragic situation where most passed away. The former -- filling up the roster -- is at least justifiable on the grounds that the author intends to stick to the number 108, whereas the latter is too forced. A result of filling up the roster is that there are characters you can't even match a name to the face -- all you have is one small particular thing you can remember by each of these minor characters, like Zhou Yuan has a bump on his head, Chai Xing wears a flower on his head; some of them are indistinguishable from each other, like the brothers Jia Jin and Jia Bao.

In stark contrast, though, are the very well written characters in Outlaws. These are written in such details that even the three Yuan brothers with such common place names as "Little Two," "Little Five," and "Little Seven," have quite distinguishable personalities (Two is the calm, leadership type; Five is the rude gambler; Seven is the hasty angry guy.)

The redeeming fact out of all this is that there are plenty of well-described characters that one don't need to find fault about the ones that are not well described. As long as there is a good number of well-portrayed characters, it doesn't hurt to have a horde of other minor characters (in fact, they add more color to the novel.)

The biggest problems with character writing in Outlaws are actually these:

1) Some characters that the authors spent considerable amount of time on and end up not doing a great job. Best example: Lu Jin Yi, the second leader of Liangshan, the man, according to Song Jiang, whose literary skill can pacify a country and whose martial art skill can convince a crowd, after the author spent so many pages about him, end up being a hasty and arrogant fellow who doesn't listen to advices, and someone who is so concerned with earning a good post in the government that he lacks the heroism characteristic of other heroes. Even though in the later part of the novel he gets a lot of air time as second in command, he didn't seem to be particularly brilliant.

2) Female characters. This is the most unfortunate aspect of Outlaws. Most female characters are posters with hardly any lines -- Hu San Liang, arguably the most heroic of the female characters, whose skills are unrivaled by many male heroes, has one line in the entire novel. The most described females in the novel turn out to be the adulteresses, giving some the impression that all women in the novels are bad or adulterous. That's actually not true, as there are many female roles, some good, some bad, and even among the bad ones, not all are adulterous. What is unfortunate is that, after the authors created many potentially great female roles (Hu San Liang, Lin Chong's wife Zhang Shi, etc.) the authors failed to grasp these opportunities and just left them rather blank. The fact that only adulteresses (and that they take up a large percentage of the bad female roles) get more air time than other female characters is certainly sexist -- something that highlights the stereotype that women are weak creatures who fall to sexual seduction and sexually seducing others easily, "shui xin yang hua," -- what is equally disconcerting is that so many female characters are almost puppet-like and don't really talk. The good thing, though, is that the authors did, after all, create a lot of good female characters, that even though they are not well-described, people adapting the novel into films and such have the opportunity to expand on them. This was done (very well done) by CCTV's TV rendition of the novel, where Li Shi Shi was very well portrayed.

3) Illogical characters. I'm refering to Qin Ming who, right after learning that his wife died because Song Jiang set him up, joined him nonetheless, and Hu San Liang whose entire family was almost all killed by Li Kui, yet still joined the Liangshan gang, marrying one of the heroes. Qin Ming at least got mad; Hu San Liang didn't say a thing.

The hard-to-identify minor characters you mentioned actually don't bother me at all. As I said, they do more good than harm to the novel. It's actually these 3 problems I mentioned (especially 2 and 3) that are unsettling (I'm okay with 1; for example, Lu Jin Yi wasn't well written, but he's still very well-described and easily identified.)

Btw: ROTK might not have more characters than Outlaws, if you consider the sheer number of characters introduced throughout Outlaws especially in the last 50 chapters or so.