[somechineseperson]

Hi, I have a question about the Buddhist six realms.

Compare the realm of the devas (gods) with the realm of human beings, which one is objectively better, as in better for spiritual development? In other words, suppose one has a free choice, should he/she choose to be a deva or a human?

From what I know, traditionally in Buddhism the realm of the devas is the best and highest realm while the human realm is the second best. The realm of the devas is the form of existence that is closest to spiritual enlightenment and Nirvana.

According to traditional Buddhism, the six realms are in the following order: (From best to worst)

The realm of the devas (gods)
The realm of human beings
The realm of the asuras (titans)
The realm of animals
The realm of pretas (ghosts)
The realm of hell beings

However, I have read about a modern humanist interpretation of the six realms. It claims that actually the human realm is the best one, the realm that is closest to Nirvana, and in which achieving spiritual enlightenment is the easiest. According to this interpretation, the human realm is the best because it is the most balanced. All of the other five realms have qualities which are quite extreme. A balanced realm, like the human one, is most conducive to spiritual development and enlightenment. While in the realm of devas there is much more joy and happiness, and no suffering or any negative things, such an environment is not necessarily the best one for spiritual enlightenment because one can easily become proud and complacent in such a realm, and also become oblivious to the suffering and negative side of things.

According to this interpretation then, the six realms are in the following order:

The realm of human beings
The realm of the devas (gods)
The realm of the asuras (titans)
The realm of animals
The realm of pretas (ghosts)
The realm of hell beings

Can anyone offer their opinions on this? Which is superior (as measured by the standard of Nirvana), god or human?

Note that according to my understanding of trans-religious natural theology, the Christian God does not correspond to the Buddhist devas, rather, God is like the personification of Nirvana. The devas correspond more to angels in the Christian framework. So to phrase this question in a Christian context: who is closer to God: humans or angels?

[Lin Duanwen]

somechineseperson, on Jan 15 2006, 11:12 AM, said:

Can anyone offer their opinions on this? Which is superior (as measured by the standard of Nirvana), god or human?

By normal standard, it should be
Deva realm (天道)
Human realm (人道)
Asura realm (阿修罗道)
Animal realm (畜生道)
Hungry Ghost realm (饿鬼道)
Hell realm (地狱道)

By the standard of Nirvana, all are equal. (众生平等)

According to my understanding, most buddhists believe that Shangdi is the same as Brahma (大梵天) and Jade Emperor is the same as Indra (帝释天).

This post has been edited by Lin Duanwen: 16 January 2006 - 09:49 PM

[LYY]

Quote

Note that according to my understanding oftrans-religious natural theology, the Christian God does not correspond to the Buddhist devas, rather, God is like the personification of Nirvana.

Could you explain further?

Quote

Which is superior (as measured by the standard of Nirvana), god or human?

By the standard of Nirvana, all are the same.
Devas, human (and all other beings) are in Samsara - the unending cycle of death and rebirth.

[somechineseperson]

Lin Duanwen, on Jan 15 2006, 11:20 PM, said:

According to my understanding, most buddhists believe that Shangdi is the same as Brahma (大梵天) and Jade Emperor is the same as Indra (帝释天).

This view is clearly incorrect. Neither Brahma nor Indra are Omnipotent, Omniscient and perfectly good. Nor are they Supreme.

According to Jing Jiao (Ancient Chinese Christianity) theology, which borrows a lot of Buddhist concepts, (Jing Jiao believes in reincarnation for example and that Jesus can save people from the cycle of rebirth) the Supreme God is NOT in the cycle of rebirth but transcends it.

The Supreme God (Shangdi), as the Ground of Being for all things, can be said to be the Ultimate Reality. It's like the concept of Dao or the Supreme Ultimate (Taiji), the Supreme and Ultimate Origin and Root of all things. God is like the personification of Taiji.

This post has been edited by somechineseperson: 16 January 2006 - 12:19 PM

[naruwan]

The best realm for pursueing spiritual advancement is being human.

In fact, eventhough it's call realms, all realms may reside on the same plane.

Just like how Buddhism refers to 3 worlds being Past, Present and Future. So the world really is time. Yet it is still different worlds.

Being human is the best for pursueing spiritual advancement be call the lower 3 realms 三惡道, you have no capacity for pursueing enlightenment, or enduring too much pain to think about anything else.

A person of Christian or Taoism background might think being gods is a good thing. However in Buddhism, it isn't. There are many forms of being in heaven as there are many of them. Some of the heavenly worlds, gods have no awareness. They just exist and feel nothing. No pain, no pleasure. Some other worlds gods can think about something and make it happen. For example if a god wants an apple, as he think about it, the apple appears. These gods are too happy to think about pursueing enlightenment. Until when they are about to demise, either through war with the asuras or even their long existance is about to end. During this time they suffer tremendous sarrow and grief. There are people who can pursue spiritual happiness in heaven. If they are great achievers as human and they kept that in mind. Though it is not hte majority.

As for human, we have capacity to think. And we have enough pain to let us be aware of the pain and creating desire for not returing to the reincarnation cycle. Though being human is precious, and being human who have opportunity to know Buddhism is very very rare. Only 1 in few trillions of life gets this chance.

Personally I feel one can observe all 6 realms on our planet earth, and one can even observe beings from all 6 realms appearing on all human beings. However that's just my interpretation.

That is as much as I know from the Buddhist texts.

[somechineseperson]

naruwan, on Jan 16 2006, 06:47 PM, said:

The best realm for pursueing spiritual advancement is being human.

In fact, eventhough it's call realms, all realms may reside on the same plane.

Just like how Buddhism refers to 3 worlds being Past, Present and Future. So the world really is time. Yet it is still different worlds.

Being human is the best for pursueing spiritual advancement be call the lower 3 realms 三惡道, you have no capacity for pursueing enlightenment, or enduring too much pain to think about anything else.

A person of Christian or Taoism background might think being gods is a good thing. However in Buddhism, it isn't. There are many forms of being in heaven as there are many of them. Some of the heavenly worlds, gods have no awareness. They just exist and feel nothing. No pain, no pleasure. Some other worlds gods can think about something and make it happen. For example if a god wants an apple, as he think about it, the apple appears. These gods are too happy to think about pursueing enlightenment. Until when they are about to demise, either through war with the asuras or even their long existance is about to end. During this time they suffer tremendous sarrow and grief. There are people who can pursue spiritual happiness in heaven. If they are great achievers as human and they kept that in mind. Though it is not hte majority.

As for human, we have capacity to think. And we have enough pain to let us be aware of the pain and creating desire for not returing to the reincarnation cycle. Though being human is precious, and being human who have opportunity to know Buddhism is very very rare. Only 1 in few trillions of life gets this chance.

Personally I feel one can observe all 6 realms on our planet earth, and one can even observe beings from all 6 realms appearing on all human beings. However that's just my interpretation.

That is as much as I know from the Buddhist texts.

As I have said already, do not confuse the Buddhist concept of devas with the Christian concept of God. The two are not the same. The Christian God is immortal and infinite in space and time. Plus He is also Omnipotent, Omniscient and perfectly good. God is also the Ground of Being (the Root) of everything that exists. This is very different from the Buddhist devas, who are mortal (even though they live for a very long time), are not perfectly good and do not have infinite power. Devas are also not the root of everything that exists.

Also the Christian idea of Heaven is nothing like the Buddhist concept of the realm of the devas. After the second coming of Jesus and the Final Judgement, Heaven will be established on Earth, people will still have human bodies, but perfect and immortal ones.

God or Shangdi is more like the Chinese concepts of Dao and Taiji.

Historically, the point of contact between Christianity and Buddhism is Jing Jiao (Ancient Chinese Christianity), according to which the Supreme God is beyond the cycle of rebirth and believers in Jesus can all reach Nirvana. (Not some realms of devas)

In traditional Buddhism I think the realm of the devas is still considered better, and one can pursue spiritual enlightenment in the realm of the devas too.

The important thing is that both the realms of devas and humans are considered to be good realms while the other four are considered to be bad realms. It is very difficult to pursue spiritual enlightenment in the other four realms.

This post has been edited by somechineseperson: 16 January 2006 - 07:27 PM

[LYY]

Quote

Personally I feel one can observe all 6 realms on our planet earth, and one can even observe beings from all 6 realms appearing on all human beings. However that's just my interpretation.

You are not alone.
From the context of habitual domain, the human being depicts a spectrum of beings existing in the all six "habitual" realms. In a single day, one may be 12 hours human, 2 hours a divine being, 2 hours a hungry ghost, 2 hours engrossed in animal realm and the rest of the time - sleeping. So "sleeping" in this context is a rehabiliation period of time of returning into the current existence - the human being.

Just some typical characteristic of the being in each realm:

Deva realm (天道) - joy
Human realm (人道) - fatique (livelihood via sweat)
Asura realm (阿修罗道) - anger
Hungry Ghost realm (饿鬼道) - hunger
Animal realm (畜生道) - ignorance
Hell realm (地狱道) - pains and sufferings

A gambler in casino will be in the temporary realms of Ghost and Hell when loses incurred.
Lovers are mostly in the realm of Deva.
The Hell existence may prevail in a cancer patient if one is not skillful enough to watch and transcend his mind.

This post has been edited by LYY: 16 January 2006 - 09:03 PM

[naruwan]

somechineseperson, on Jan 16 2006, 04:25 PM, said:

As I have said already, do not confuse the Buddhist concept of devas with the Christian concept of God. The two are not the same. The Christian God is immortal and infinite in space and time. Plus He is also Omnipotent, Omniscient and perfectly good. God is also the Ground of Being (the Root) of everything that exists. This is very different from the Buddhist devas, who are mortal (even though they live for a very long time), are not perfectly good and do not have infinite power. Devas are also not the root of everything that exists.

Also the Christian idea of Heaven is nothing like the Buddhist concept of the realm of the devas. After the second coming of Jesus and the Final Judgement, Heaven will be established on Earth, people will still have human bodies, but perfect and immortal ones.

God or Shangdi is more like the Chinese concepts of Dao and Taiji.

Historically, the point of contact between Christianity and Buddhism is Jing Jiao (Ancient Chinese Christianity), according to which the Supreme God is beyond the cycle of rebirth and believers in Jesus can all reach Nirvana. (Not some realms of devas)

In traditional Buddhism I think the realm of the devas is still considered better, and one can pursue spiritual enlightenment in the realm of the devas too.

The important thing is that both the realms of devas and humans are considered to be good realms while the other four are considered to be bad realms. It is very difficult to pursue spiritual enlightenment in the other four realms.

Say, actually Devas though are "gods" in Indian culture, are more like 仙 in Han culture.

In anycase, God himself is all "all good" and have made and admited to having mistakes (being too vengeful). Especially in the old testiment.

Human, Devas and Asuras are actually considered as the 三善道 (三善趣), the 3 good Realms. So it's 3 good realms and 3 bad realms. I think it is named that because in these realms, you are more capable of logical thinking. While the 3 bad realms you are unable to even understand the words if Buddhism is being preached to you.

It does not, however, mean that the 3 good realms are all suitable for pursueing enlightenment.

Devas can pursue enlightenment as I have mentioned, but it is a lot more difficult than being human since they are way too happy to care about leaving the re-incarnation.

[General_Zhaoyun]

somechineseperson, on Jan 15 2006, 11:12 AM, said:

Hi, I have a question about the Buddhist six realms.

Compare the realm of the devas (gods) with the realm of human beings, which one is objectively better, as in better for spiritual development? In other words, suppose one has a free choice, should he/she choose to be a deva or a human?

From what I know, traditionally in Buddhism the realm of the devas is the best and highest realm while the human realm is the second best. The realm of the devas is the form of existence that is closest to spiritual enlightenment and Nirvana.

I'm a buddhist so I should answer your question to my best ability and understanding of buddhism. The "6 realms of existence" is used for explaining rebirth, an important teaching in buddhism.

Ascendence to the realm of the deva is through much accumulation of good karma through eons of practice.

The realm of the deva (heavenly being or god) is the highest realm, but not necessarily the best realm. Why? In this realm, the heavenly beings have almost no sufferings. They live in perpetual happiness and they do enjoyed long life, but they often indulge in the enjoyment that they forget about the sufferings of other beings. In some sense, they would forget about their spiritual practice such that once their good karma are burnt out, they would be descended (reborn) back to the lower realm.

According to most buddhist teaching, the human realms is the best realm for spiritual practice, as it entains a mix of sufferings and pleasure. Humans can cultivate compassion and accumulated much karma through spiritual practice.

Quote

According to traditional Buddhism, the six realms are in the following order: (From best to worst)

The realm of the devas (gods)
The realm of human beings
The realm of the asuras (titans)
The realm of animals
The realm of pretas (ghosts)
The realm of hell beings

Your ranking of the 6 realms is wrong. You cannot rank them from best to worst, but only highest to lowest. You're using a christian mindset to understand buddhism and that's not correct.

The more appropriate means of grouping the realm is in terms of higher and lower realm. When we say "highest", it means almost no suffering. When we say "lowest", it means there is immense suffering with perpetual torture.

The six realms in order (from highest to lowest - in terms of suffering):

Higher realms

The realm of the devas (gods)
The realm of the asuras (titans)
The realm of human beings

Lower realms

The realm of animals
The realm of pretas (ghosts)
The realm of hell beings

Note that the realm of devas and asuras are higher realms than the human realms, but not necessarily better.

Quote

However, I have read about a modern humanist interpretation of the six realms. It claims that actually the human realm is the best one, the realm that is closest to Nirvana, and in which achieving spiritual enlightenment is the easiest. According to this interpretation, the human realm is the best because it is the most balanced. All of the other five realms have qualities which are quite extreme. A balanced realm, like the human one, is most conducive to spiritual development and enlightenment. While in the realm of devas there is much more joy and happiness, and no suffering or any negative things, such an environment is not necessarily the best one for spiritual enlightenment because one can easily become proud and complacent in such a realm, and also become oblivious to the suffering and negative side of things.

According to this interpretation then, the six realms are in the following order:

The realm of human beings
The realm of the devas (gods)
The realm of the asuras (titans)
The realm of animals
The realm of pretas (ghosts)
The realm of hell beings

Can anyone offer their opinions on this? Which is superior (as measured by the standard of Nirvana), god or human?

A true buddhist will not evaluate which is more superior. In fact, evaluating which is more superior will defeats your spiritual goal in which you will developed 'ego' and 'attachment'. Most buddhist teaching will say the realm of human is the best realm for spiritual practice, because it entains a mix of sufferings and pleasures, an environment conducive for spiritual development.

What you should understand from buddhism's perspective is that if you haven't achieved nirvana, you will undergo perpetual rebirth into the different realms. If you have accumulated countless of good karma, you can be reborn into the higher realm such as realm of asuras or heavenly being. If you have done many bad deeds which resulted in bad karma, you will be reborn into lower realm such as realm of animals or hell where you will experience greater suffering.

The goal of buddhist is to break this vicious cycle of rebirth so that you won't be reborn into any of these realm. And when you achieve that, it's called nirvana or enlightenment.

Somechineseperson said:

Note that according to my understanding of trans-religious natural theology, the Christian God does not correspond to the Buddhist devas, rather, God is like the personification of Nirvana. The devas correspond more to angels in the Christian framework. So to phrase this question in a Christian context: who is closer to God: humans or angels?

The Buddhist deva's best translation is "heavenly beings 天人". There are countless of devas. They are different from the almighty creator god of Christianity.

The Buddhist's goal is not to become a "deva" (god or heavenly being), but to become a buddha, because only by becoming a buddha (i.e. achieve enlightenment) then you will not undergo anymore rebirth in the 6 realms and need not undergo anymore suffering (i.e. in short, it's the path towards perpetual happiness).

For those who wants to know the difference between buddhism and Christianity, refer to
http://www.buddhanet.../snapshot01.htm

A recommended forum for learning buddhism is E-sangha at http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

"Say, actually Devas though are "gods" in Indian culture, are more like 仙 in Han culture."

No, it is more close rto Shen, Xian actually transcended the realm of rebirth.

[Lin Duanwen]

warhead, on Jan 17 2006, 11:27 AM, said:

No, it is more close rto Shen, Xian actually transcended the realm of rebirth.

Only Daluo Jinxian(大罗金仙) transcended the realm of rebirth, others like Tianxian(天仙), Dixian(地仙) and Guixian(鬼仙) are still in the realm of rebirth.

[naruwan]

there are many stories involving heavenly beings being punished by sending them to be human.

[LYY]

Quote

According to Jing Jiao (Ancient Chinese Christianity) theology, which borrows a lot of Buddhist concepts, (Jing Jiao believes in reincarnation for example and that Jesus can save people from the cycle of rebirth) the Supreme God is NOT in the cycle of rebirth but transcends it.

The Supreme God (Shangdi), as the Ground of Being for all things, can be said to be the Ultimate Reality. It's like the concept of Dao or the Supreme Ultimate (Taiji), the Supreme and Ultimate Origin and Root of all things. God is like the personification of Taiji.

i must say this is a breakthrough in the barriers between mankind.
As the world (samsara) is full of manifestation and delusion, the image of God is easily degraded into man-made concepts and interpretation.

[somechineseperson]

A question for the Buddhists here: How do you even know reincarnation and the six realms are real? Is there any evidence for this?

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Quote

The Supreme God (Shangdi), as the Ground of Being for all things, can be said to be the Ultimate Reality. It's like the concept of Dao or the Supreme Ultimate (Taiji), the Supreme and Ultimate Origin and Root of all things. God is like the personification of Taiji.

No, we already talked about this, the concept is very different. Under no circumstance does Dao mean an ultimate reality. Dao is a principle of the process of the world itself, it does not need to be transcended. It is very this-worldly and can be used by a cultivator of Dao. It is also a path to be followed, to reach the status of emptiness or a state completely unattached to the world and has nothing to do with the world.

Quote

Only Daluo Jinxian(大罗金仙) transcended the realm of rebirth, others like Tianxian(天仙), Dixian(地仙) and Guixian(鬼仙) are still in the realm of rebirth.

The others are no different from Shen. Xian to Daoists are people who has already transcended the realm of rebirth.

Quote

A question for the Buddhists here: How do you even know reincarnation and the six realms are real? Is there any evidence for this?

There are evience for reincarnation, but nothing about the six realm of rebirth. In fact this six realm is a invention of later Buddhism, the earliest texts of Buddhism, such as the Sutta Nipatta does not speak about them at all.