[somechineseperson]

Exactly what is a "civilisation"? A civilisation is not just some random tribe with agricultural technology. Technically speaking a culture cannot be considered as a true civilisation until it has all of the following basic elements:

1. A organised state society
2. A politico-religious system based on priest-kings
3. A developed written script
4. Bronze technology
5. The presence of walled cities of a relatively large size

These elements are the true marks of an advanced true civilisation, not just some pots dug up from the ground.

Scholars formally divide all settled human societies into 5 levels based on their levels of societal development:

Level 1: Hunter-Gatherers
Level 2: Simple Farming Societies
Level 3: Chiefdoms (Complex Farming Societies)
Level 4: State Societies
Level 5: Empires

Nomadic societies are treated as a special kind and do not fit into this hierarchy.

The historical development of different human societies are vastly unequal: Mesopotamia was the earliest centre of true civilisation, the Sumerians developed into State Society (Level 4) as early as 3500 BC, 1500 years ahead of China and Greece. In contrast, the native Australians were still hunter-gatherers in the 19th century AD.

Taking all of these features into consideration, it is clear that the first TRUE civilisation in Eastern Eurasia emerged in NORTHERN CHINA of the Wei and mid-Yellow River valley regions at around 2000 BC, not in southern China. The current Chinese civilisation is still the direct heir of this first Chinese civilisation. At that time, more than 99.9% of the world was inhabited by primitive peoples without state organisation. The only state societies at around 2000 BC were Sumer, Ancient Egypt, the Minoan civilisation on the island of Crete, the Indus Valley civilisation of India and the Huaxia civilisation in north China. The other peoples of the world were still mostly either hunter-gatherers or simple farming societies. Even chiefdoms are quite rare. Most of Europe was only beginning to develop into chiefdoms at around this time.

In contrast to the Wei and mid-Yellow River valleys, southern China (both south-western China and south-eastern China) was still very primitive at around 2000 BC. In fact, so primitive that it was actually behind western Europe in development. Europeans were already developing chiefdoms by 2000 BC, but most of China (except a small region in the north) did not enter this stage even 1000 years later. Even by 1000 BC, when northern China was ruled by the Western Zhou Dynasty, one of the most advanced and developed Bronze Age states during that period in the entire world, most of southern China were still simple farming societies. Many parts of southern China did not come under state organisation until the Han Dynasty, 2000 years behind Northern China. This is why the idea that Chinese civilisation originated in the south is wrong. If the south was so much more advanced than the north, then why did the first state society, the first society with a developed written script, the first society with Bronze and subsequently Iron and Steel technologies in all the lands to the east of the Pamir mountains all developed in north China and not south China? Saying Chinese civilisation came from southern China is as wrong as saying modern science came from Africa.

This post has been edited by somechineseperson: 21 January 2006 - 08:22 PM

[浪淘音]

Central Chinese states (then considered the "South") like Wu made large contributions to Chinese civilization. Sun Zi was from Wu and the first blast furnace is said to be made in Wu and spread north ward

however, despite what Korean pan altaic nationalists say. Chinese civilization began in the north and remained centered on the North until as late as the Southern Song dynasty. even afterwards,a dynasty like Ming which began in the south re-oriented itself back toward the North China plain

[somechineseperson]

浪淘音, on Jan 22 2006, 01:42 AM, said:

Central Chinese states (then considered the "South") like Wu made large contributions to Chinese civilization. Sun Zi was from Wu and the first blast furnace is said to be made in Wu and spread north ward

however, despite what Korean pan altaic nationalists say. Chinese civilization began in the north and remained centered on the North until as late as the Southern Song dynasty. even afterwards,a dynasty like Ming which began in the south re-oriented itself back toward the North China plain

The state of Wu in the lower Yangtze region was the second state society to form in southern China, (the first was the state of Chu which formed in Western Zhou times) but it only formed due to significant Zhou (North Chinese) influences and was still more than a thousand years behind the earliest formation of state societies in the Wei and mid-Yellow River valley regions in the early second millennium BC. The state of Wu also became a part of the Zhou (North Chinese) feudal order. Although Sunzi was from Wu like many people in the higher classes at the time, his ancestry was probably still northern.

It is true that the earliest simple farming society in East Asia developed in the lower Yangtze region instead of in the north, but one can hardly call a simple farming society a true civilisation. A culture is not a true civilisation until it becomes a state society. And north China was only a few centuries behind in the development of simple farming anyway.

This post has been edited by somechineseperson: 21 January 2006 - 08:51 PM

[somechineseperson]

ocean view incubus, on Jan 22 2006, 02:33 AM, said:

Isnt it ironic that the central and northern area of China are the less well off now than those from the coast and southeast?

You know what that means, more admixture.

So? Western Europe is also much more well off than Mesopotamia (e.g. Iraq) nowadays, but Iraq still developed true civilisation thousands of years before Europe. Things can change a lot in a few thousand years.

From the Tang Dynasty onwards, the economic and cultural centre of the Chinese civilisation gradually shifted to the south, and the north began to decline in comparison. Repeated destruction caused by nomadic invaders (e.g. the Mongols during the Yuan Dynasty) was certainly a major factor for northern China's decline. But the south only became more prosperous due to the migration of North Chinese people into the area during various dynasties and its gradual sinisation.

[Yun]

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Sun Zi was from Wu and the first blast furnace is said to be made in Wu and spread north ward

Sunzi's clan was actually from Qi. It's the same clan that produced Tian Rangju (Sima Rangu, of Sima Bingfa fame), just that Sunzi's branch was given the new surname Sun as a reward for services rendered by his ancestor.

[nguoiVietchanhtong]

The Wu was actually ethnically a Yue. A very nice thing to know

[Yun]

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The Wu was actually ethnically a Yue. A very nice thing to know

Yes, I knew that would come up sooner or later. Thanks nguoiVietchanhtong, you can always be relied upon to make sure the Yue get mentioned.

So guys, are the Yue tribes (or if you like, Bai Yue) considered a civilization by themselves? And do they include Chu and Wu?

[DearCoolZ]

nguoiVietchanhtong, on Jan 22 2006, 04:42 AM, said:

The Wu was actually ethnically a Yue. A very nice thing to know

wishfuldream

the wu practiced chinese culture,spoken a chinese dialect,their customes looked nothing like primitive yues and such

whats with some viets obsessed with chinese culture to the point that they have to rewrite it to fit their own satisfaction.

[qrasy]

浪淘音, on Jan 22 2006, 09:42 AM, said:

however, despite what Korean pan altaic nationalists say. Chinese civilization began in the north and remained centered on the North until as late as the Southern Song dynasty.

somechineseperson, on Jan 22 2006, 11:29 AM, said:

From the Tang Dynasty onwards, the economic and cultural centre of the Chinese civilisation gradually shifted to the south, and the north began to decline in comparison.

So, did anyone forget about Jin (晋/晉) dynasty?

nguoiVietchanhtong, on Jan 22 2006, 05:42 PM, said:

The Wu was actually ethnically a Yue. A very nice thing to know

Depends on your classification

Yun, on Jan 22 2006, 05:51 PM, said:

So guys, are the Yue tribes (or if you like, Bai Yue) considered a civilization by themselves?

No, not one, definitely many civilizations (should be like chiefdoms).

DearCoolZ, on Jan 22 2006, 06:28 PM, said:

the wu practiced chinese culture,spoken a chinese dialect,their customes looked nothing like primitive yues and such

I think it depends on which "Wu" you're talking.

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whats with some viets obsessed with chinese culture to the point that they have to rewrite it to fit their own satisfaction.

Obsessed? Well, you know the results.

[Yun]

Quote

So, did anyone forget about Jin (晋/晉) dynasty?

I get your point. But why should we assume that the 16 Kingdoms and Northern Dynasties were all just barbaric backwaters? In reality, China in the Age of Fragmentation was multi-centered. Jiangnan was still in a very early stage of development, and Former Qin-Later Qin Chang'an and late Northern Wei Luoyang were just as vibrant as Jiankang.

[qrasy]

Yun, on Jan 22 2006, 07:09 PM, said:

I get your point. But why should we assume that the 16 Kingdoms and Northern Dynasties were all just barbaric backwaters? In reality, China in the Age of Fragmentation was multi-centered. Jiangnan was still in a very early stage of development, and Former Qin-Later Qin Chang'an and late Northern Wei Luoyang were just as vibrant as Jiankang.

Quite tricky, isn't it? I didn't say that the Northern Civilizations/Kingdoms in the age of fragmentation were barbaric or so, but those were their own civilizations. Even though they were somehow Sinicized but in that age they still retained their identities.

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Chinese civilization began in the north and remained centered on the North until as late as the Southern Song dynasty.

Quote

From the Tang Dynasty onwards, the economic and cultural centre of the Chinese civilisation gradually shifted to the south

This post has been edited by qrasy: 22 January 2006 - 07:07 AM

[SODO]

DearCoolZ, on Jan 22 2006, 04:28 AM, said:

wishfuldream

the wu practiced chinese culture,spoken a chinese dialect,their customes looked nothing like primitive yues and such

whats with some viets obsessed with chinese culture to the point that they have to rewrite it to fit their own satisfaction.

So if the Chinese practice other cultures, I supposed they're no longer consider Chinese!
Is that a fair analogy DearCoolZ?

[Tibet Libre]

somechineseperson, on Jan 21 2006, 07:15 PM, said:

Exactly what is a "civilisation"? A civilisation is not just some random tribe with agricultural technology. Technically speaking a culture cannot be considered as a true civilisation until it has all of the following basic elements:

1. A organised state society
2. A politico-religious system based on priest-kings
3. A developed written script
4. Bronze technology
5. The presence of walled cities of a relatively large size

The Inkas had no script and both the Inkas and Mayas knew no bronze technology, yet they are classified as civilizations. The above criteria should therefore be applied only for Eurasia.

somechineseperson, on Jan 21 2006, 07:15 PM, said:

Scholars formally divide all settled human societies into 5 levels based on their levels of societal development:

Level 1: Hunter-Gatherers
Level 2: Simple Farming Societies
Level 3: Chiefdoms (Complex Farming Societies)
Level 4: State Societies
Level 5: Empires

Have you got this ranking scheme by chance from Cassell's World Atlas? I found the world maps useful, too.

[thedamnrainman]

Quote

From the Tang Dynasty onwards, the economic and cultural centre of the Chinese civilisation gradually shifted to the south, and the north began to decline in comparison. Repeated destruction caused by nomadic invaders (e.g. the Mongols during the Yuan Dynasty) was certainly a major factor for northern China's decline. But the south only became more prosperous due to the migration of North Chinese people into the area during various dynasties and its gradual sinisation.

it cant be that simple. When the North falls blame the mongols, and when the South rises credit the North...??

[Queen]

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The Wu was actually ethnically a Yue. A very nice thing to know

nope, because there is no such concepts back then. By the modern definition of ethnicity, Wu is different from the rest of baiyue and closer to the central plain.