[coco2000]

Relationship between Korea and Qing

The Founnder of Kim and Ching empire, Nurhachi

The founder of Ching(淸, Chung)is 'Kim (Gold)' from Shilla (Korea). He was born in Whoi-ryong Hamkyungbook-do, North Korea (함경북도 회령)and his name is 'Nruhachi' ( Nooruhachi is a tiger looking like animal and it is called also 'Shirasoni'. Nurhachi(Sirasoni) inhibits in Manchuria and North Korea).
Nooruchachi was a weak child but looked like a tiger so people called him Noorunhachi, subordinate Tiger (little Tiger).

[attachment=601:attachment]

Manchuria (It means 'The World Vast Land')

Manchuria and Korean peninsula was one land originally before Yi-Josun ; there was no notion of seperated land between Manchuria and the Korean peninsula before Yi-Josun (the Last Korean dynasty).
But after the Yi built "Josun", Yi relyed on Ming (by descendents of Han dynasty) to protect his reign - Yi-Josun and Ming became an umbrella for each other and this relation between the two lasted for 276 years, till Ming collapsed. - worst period in Korean history.
Till Coryeo, the concept that the Korean peninsula and Manchuria are one land had kept but Yi Sung-ge, the founder of Yi-Josun himself chose Ming instead of Kim Dynasty as a partner of his reign.
The Korean people on Manchuria area, who opposed Yi-Josun seperated from Yi-Josun as Goguryo migtants left Shilla and built Balhae(Jin, 振) when Goguryeo had been ruined by Shilla.
Anyone, if they were Han(Khan, 韓, Korean), could travel through Manchuria and the Korean peninsula freely but with the foundation of Yi Josun, the land and the peoples started being divided into two .
The seperated people from Yi-Josun occupied Manchuria and named themselves 'Ryeo-Jin'(麗振) ; Ryeo-Jin means GoguRyeo +Jin(振, another name for Balhae) and this name contains their desire for recovering their old territory in Dangun Josun and Goguryeo (including Balhae).

History of Ryeo-Jin (Goguryeo+Jin (Balhae) and Nurhachi (누루하치), the Great Lover of Shilla

The founder of Kim dynasty and Qing Empire, Nurhachi was born in 1559. He changed his family name into 'Aeshinghangna (愛新覺蘿, 애신각라) which means 'Love Shilla (Aeshin 愛薪) and Engrave Shilla (Khangna 覺蘿).

*** In Sindanminsa (신단민사), a book on Korean history by Go Dong-Young (Korean), it says 'The Aeshin Ghangna (Love of Shilla and Engraving Shilla on his heart)' is a descendant of the Kim (Royal family of Shilla). After the fall of Shilla, the princes were scattered around Baek Doo mountain, Kum Gang mountain, and Hokryongghang province. They later united and rose again.

He had a plan to recover the old territory of Han (Khan, Dan, 韓, Korea) and in order to accomplish that, the first thing he had to do was unite his scattered people. He prepared a war to unify the tribes who were scattered within Manchuria. In 1587, he constructed his first palace in upper Choochher (蘇子河) and became the ruler of Manchuria. In 1604 he summoned local leaders in Manchuria and commanded the war of unification shouting out "Now We Start!" In 1607, he destroyed Hooyi and in 1613 Woora. Finally in 1616, he sat on Han (Khan, Dan, 韓) and named the dynasty 'Dae Kim (大金, the Great Gold dynasty)'. With the foundation of 'Dae Kim" he created the Ryeo-Jin (Goguryo+Balhae) language character and he organized a military system, Pal-Gi-Je-Do (八旗制度(팔기제도), 8 flag military).

*** PalGiGoon (팔기군, PalGi Jedo) has 8 distinct colors in each individual military flag. This is that organization that unified the military and economy. They normally worked on farms during times of peace. With orders for mobilization they would ride on horseback towards the battle field carrying their flags. This system of mobile troops was similar to what Goong Ye (the last King of Goguryeo (870-918) and the founder of Coryeo with Wang Gun) established. Nurhachi was supreme commander. Nurhachi said "This military sytem was performed originally by Goong Ye in Goguryo and I followed him." - Yeon-Sa (연사, 演史), Book of Ching Empire.
In 1618, he finally declared war against Ming. He extradited Han Chinese (漢)to the far west portion of modern China and he conquered modern day China. During the war to regain lost territory, old Nurhachi died from disease. He made a will to his 8th prince Whang Tae Guk (皇太極, 황태극) "You have to recover the old territory of Han (Han, Dan, 韓, Korea). We (Josun and Qing) originated from the Lake of Baek Doo Mountain. Josun (Yi Josun) is your mother country so keep a good relationship with Josun. You remember this." ** Note: BaekJe means Baek Doo Jegook (Baek Doo empire)

In 1636, WhangTaeGuk, 8th son of Nurhachi, renamed his dynasty as Qing (Chung, 淸-clean, lucid, fresh like the Lake of Baek Doo mountain) and he designated his father as Chung Tae-Jo (the founder of Chung (淸,Qing)) He decided to call themselves the people of Manchuria, which means Ryeo-Jin is the center of the world. During this time, Manchus desperately requested to liquidate descendants of the Han Dynasty to Josun but the pro-Ming dynasty Yi Josun rejected the request calling Ryeo-Jin barbarians. The government and the people of Qing petitioned to Khan (Whang Tae-Guk) to conquer Yi Josun but he remembered his father's will and he denied the attack on Josun.

** Aeshinghangna(애신각라); this sounds like 'Ahyishin jiryo' in Mongolian: Ahyishin - Kim (Royal family of Shilla, Gold), Jiryo - Blood, root which means people revering Kim (Gold, - Bright and Shiny); only Korean kings could wear gold crowns, gold hats, and gold belts.

** Chung(Qing) worshiped Baek Doo mountain as the Soul of Han (Khan,
Dan, 韓, Korea, Korean) as Koreans have done for thousands of years. Chung (Qing) and Josun separated Baek Doo Mountain into two halves. One half for Josun and the other for Chung; they are both from Baek Doo Mountain so both deserved to worship Baek Doo mountain. Chung guarded Baek Doo Mountain to prevent descendants of Han Dynasty (Ming) from getting into the mountain but they allowed Josun people to travel to the mountain even from Chung territory. Descendants of Han dynasty were not allowed to travel to Manchuria. Manchuria traditionally and historically has been a nest of Han (Khan, 韓, Korea) and they didn't want their enemy there.

** When Japan invaded Josun in 1592, the Founder of Qing, Nurhachi, sent a letter offering help repulsing the Japanese barbarians. However, Sun Jo, the king of Yi-Josun at that period rejected his help saying "we don't need barbarians' help."

** Nurhachi requested a position in Pyongyang as a local governor but Yi-Joson rejected this. He was always Han (Khan, 韓, Korean) and wanted to serve his country.

** In the early 17 century, Yi-Joson faced a serious political situation. Chung (Qing) could attack Josun and conquer it, but he didn't because Josun was their mother country and he didn't want to hurt its people.

** In Kim Sa (金史, 금사, history book of Kim dynasty), it says "the Founder of the Kim dynasty is Hap-Bo" "He was 60 years old when he left Coryeo." "His older brother Ahgohobol didn't follow him. Instead he stayed in Coryeo"

** In Man Joo Wol Ryu Go (滿洲原流考, 만주원류고,history book of Manchu), it says "The founder of the Kim Dynasty (Gold dynasty) named his dynasty "Kim" following the royal family name of Shilla."

** In SongMarkkimoon (松漠紀聞, 송막기문, history book of Song), it says "Before the foundation of the Kim dynasty, the leader of Ryeo-Jin was from Shilla."

** The Korean Kim (today), descendants of last crown prince of Shilla, state quoting their family tree "Hap-Bo is his Buddhist name and his real name is Kim Hang (or Kim Joon).

** In Dong-Sa-Ghang-Mock (東史綱目, 동사강목) by Ahn Jung-Bock (Korean in late Joson) says "Kim Joon had 2 brothers and when he left Coryeo he did not bring his 2 brothers with him.

**In Jo Sun Sanggosa(조선 상고사, a Book on Ancient Korean Histoy) by Shin Chae-Ho, Shin says that the Huns (Mongolian), Ryeo – Jin and Xianbei shoud be included as tribes of Han (Korea, 韓, Dan, Khan) and our task is to reveal when each tribe evolved from Han(韓, Korea)

This post has been edited by coco2000: 19 February 2006 - 08:40 PM

[MING-LOYALIST]

coco2000, on Feb 13 2006, 02:00 AM, said:

Me Back..
I have prepared this some days ago and have sent this to my English speaking friends to ask to correct my English and ask if my writing is good enough to understand what i am talking about but nobody has answered yet. I just didn't want to bother you guys too much with my weak English.
Anyway i started this topic and seems that i am the only person to answer this.

These are extracts from Korean history sites.

Here enjoy!!!

The Founnder of Kim and Qing empire, Nooruhachi

The founder of Qing(淸, Chung)is 'Kim (Gold)' from Shilla (Korea). He was born in Whoi-ryong Hamkyungbook-do, North Korea (함경북도 회령)and his name is 'Nooruhachi'
( Nooruhachi is a tiger looking like animal and it is called also 'Shirasoni'. Nooruhachi(Sirasoni) inhibits in Manchuria and North Korea).
Nooruchachi was a weak child but looked like a tiger so he was named Noorunhachi, subordinate Tiger (the Second Tiger).

attachment Nooruhachi

Manchuria (It means 'The World Vast Land')
Manchuria and Korean peninsula was one land originally before Yi-Josun ; there was no notion of seperated land between Manchuria and the Korean peninsula before Yi-Josun.
But after the Yi built "Josun", Yi relyed on Ming (by descendents of Han dynasty) to protect his reign - Yi-Josun and Ming became an umbrella for each other and this relation between the two lasted for 276 years, till Ming collapsed. - worst period in Korean history.
Till Coryeo, the notion that the Korean peninsula and Manchuria are one land had kept but Yi Sung-ge, the founder of Yi-Josun himself chose Ming instead of Kim dynasty as a partner of his reign.
The Korean people on Manchuria area, who opposed Yi-Josun seperated from Yi-Josun as Goguryo migrants left and built Balhae(Jin, 振) when Goguryeo had been ruined by Shilla.
Anyone if they were Han(Khan, 韓, Korean) could travel through Manchuria and the Korean peninsula freely but with the foundation of Yi Josun, the land and the peoples started being divided into two .
The seperated people from Yi-Josun occupied Manchuria and named themselve 'Ryeo-Jin'(麗振) ; Ryeo-Jin means GoguRyeo +Jin(振, another name for Balhae) and this name contains their desire for recovering their old territory in Dangun Josun and Goguryeo including Balhae(Dae Jin).

History of Ryeo-Jin(Goguryo+Jin(Balhae) and Nooruhachi, the Great Great lover of Shilla
The founder of Kim dynasty and Qing empire, Nooruhachi was born in 1559. He changed his family into 'Ae-Shin-Ghak-Ra(愛新覺蘿) which means 'Love Shilla(AeShin 愛薪) and Engrave Shilla(KhakRa 覺蘿).

*** In Sindamminsa(신담민사), Book on Korean history by Go Dong-Young(Korean) it says 'The Ae-Shin-Ghak-Ra(Lover of Shilla and Engraving Shilla on his heart)' is a descendant of the Kim (Royal family of Shilla). After the fall of Shilla the princes had scattered around Baekdoo mountain, Kumghang mountain and Hokryongghang(흑룡강) province and then later they united and rose again.

He had a plan to recover the old territory of Han (Khan, 韓, Korea) and to do that, he thought, the first thing he had to do was to unite his scattered people. He prepared wars for unification of tribes who scattered on Manchuria.
In 1587, he constructed his first palace upper Choochher(蘇子河) and became a ruler of Manchuria.

In 1604, he summoned local leaders around Manchuria and command the war for unification shouting out "Now We Start!"
In 1607, he destroyed Hooyi and in 1613 Woora. Finally in 1616, he sat on Han(Khan, 韓) and named the dynasty 'Dae Kim (大金, the Great Gold dynasty)'.

With foundation of 'Dae Kim" he created Ryeo-Jin (Goguryo+Balhae) language character and he organized military system, Pal-Gi-Je-Do (八旗制度, 8 flag military) ;

*** PalGiGoon(PalGi Jedo) has 8 different characteristic colours in each individual military flag. This is organization which unified Military and Economy ; they worked on farms when there was no war but with orders for the mobilization of war they ran riding on a horse toward battle field with their flags. - * this kind of system of mobile troops was much similiar to what Goong Ye (궁예, the last King of Goguryeo(870-918) and the founder of Coryeo with Wang Gun) did.
NooRuHaChi said "This military system was performed originally by Goong Ye in Goguryeo and I have followed him." - Yeon-Sa (연사, 演史), Book of Qing Empire.

In 1618, finally he declared war against Ming. He soon kicked out Han chinese far west part of today's Chinese continent and he conquered the today's Chinese continent.
During the war for recovering old territory, old NooRuHaChi died from disease.
He made a will to his 8th prince Whang Tae Guk(皇太極) "You have to recover the old territory of Han(Khan, 韓, Korea). We(Josun and Chung) originated from the Lake of BaekDoo San(mountain). Josun(Yi Josun) is your mother country so keep a good relationship with Josun. You remember this."
** Tip : BaekJe means BAEKdoo JEgook (Baekdoo empire)

In 1636, Whang Tae-Guk, 8th son of NooRuHaChi, renamed his dynasty as Qing(淸, Chung -clean, lucid, fresh like the Lake of Baekdoo san) and he designated his father as Chung Tae-Jo (the founder of Chung) And he announced to call themselves the people of Manchuria, which means Ryeo-Jin is the center of the world.
During this time, Manchus request desperately to liquidate descendants of Han dynasty to Josun but the pro-Ming dynasty Yi Josun rejected the request calling Ryeo-Jin Barbarians. Yi needed Ming to keep his crown.
The government and the people of Chung petitioned to Khan(Whang Tae-Guk) to conquer Yi Josun but he remembered his father's will and he denied to attack on Josun.
** AeShinGahkRa ; this sounds 'Ahyishin jiryo' in Mongolian : Ahyishin - Kim (Royal family of Shilla, Gold), Jiryo - clan, which means People revering Kim(Gold, - Bright and Shiny) ; Korean Kings were only ones who wear gold crown, gold hat and gold belt.

** Qing people worshiped Baekdoo mountain as Soul of Han(Khan, 韓, Korea, Korean) as Koreans have done for thousands years.

During Qing eimpire, Qing(Chung) and Josun seperated Baekdoo San into two, one half for Josun and the other for Qing ; they are both from Baekdoo San so both deserved to worship Baekdoo san.
While Chung guarded Baekdoo San to prevent descendants of Han dynasty(Ming) from getting into the mountain, they allowed Josun people to travel the mountain even from Chung territory.
Descendants of Han dynasty even was not allowed to travel to Manchuria. Manchuria traditionally and historically has been a nest of Han(Khan, 韓, korea) and they didn't want their enemy to be there.

** When Josun had Japanese's invasion in 1592, the Founder of Chung NooRuHachi sent a letter to give a help repulsing Japanese barbarians but SunJo, the King of Yi-Josun at that period rejected his help saying "we don't need barbarians' help".

** Nooruhachi would ask for a position in Pyongyang as a local governor but Yi-Joson rejected it. He was always Han(Khan, 韓, Korean) and wanted to serve his country.

** In early 17C Yi-Joson was in seriously bad situation politically ; Chung(Qing) could hit Josun and conquer it but he didn't, because Josun was their mother country and didn't want to hurt the people from their mother country.

** In KimSa(金史, 금사, history book of Kim dynasty), it says "the Founder of Kim dynasty is Hap-Bo" "He was 60 years old when he just left Coryeo." " His older brother Ahgohobol didn't follow him. Ahgohobol stayed in Coryeo"

** In ManJooWolRuGo (滿洲原流考, 만주원류고, history book of Manchu), it says "The founder of Kim dynasty (Gold dynasty) named his dynasty "Kim" following the royal family name of Shilla"

** In SongMarkkimoon (松漠紀聞, 송막기문, history book of Song), it says "Before foundation of Kim dynasty, the leader of Ryeo-Jin was from Shilla."

** The Korean Kim(today), descendants of last crown prince of Shilla says quoting their family tree "Hap-Bo is his buddhist name and his real name is Kim Hang(or Kim Joon)

** In Dong-Sa-Ghang-Mock(東史綱目, 동사강목) by Ahn Jung-Bock(Korean in late Joson) says "Kim Joon has 2 brothers and when he left Coryeo he didn't bring his 2 brothers.

** In Josun sanggosa(조선 상고사) by Shin Chae-Ho, Shin says, in its introduction, that the Huns, Mongols, Yo Dynasty (遼,거란) and Ryeo-Jin should be recognized as tribes of Han(韓, Korea) ; we have to study to reveal when each tribe evolved from Han(韓, Korea).

This is from korean history websites?
Man, thats some garbage history.

First of all what is this "Han(Khan, 韓, Korean)" Khan is written as "汗" not "韩".

coco2000, on Feb 13 2006, 02:00 AM, said:

'Love Shilla(AeShin 愛薪) and Engrave Shilla(KhakRa 覺蘿).'

How does 愛薪 equates to love shilla and how does 覺蘿 equate to engrave shilla? there is no shilla mentioned in either two. Not to mention it was a translitteration of manchu words thus its meaning should not be taken literally.

coco2000, on Feb 13 2006, 02:00 AM, said:

During Qing eimpire, Qing(Chung) and Josun seperated Baekdoo San into two, one half for Josun and the other for Qing ; they are both from Baekdoo San so both deserved to worship Baekdoo san.
While Chung guarded Baekdoo San to prevent descendants of Han dynasty(Ming) from getting into the mountain, they allowed Josun people to travel the mountain even from Chung territory.
Descendants of Han dynasty even was not allowed to travel to Manchuria. Manchuria traditionally and historically has been a nest of Han(Khan, 韓, korea) and they didn't want their enemy to be there.

The Qing did NOT share baekdoo san with josun they hog it all. It was PRC that let NK share it.

There was a a strip of no mans land between Josun and Qing where no koreans were allowed near except officials.

coco2000, on Feb 13 2006, 02:00 AM, said:

** In early 17C Yi-Joson was in seriously bad situation politically ; Chung(Qing) could hit Josun and conquer it but he didn't, because Josun was their mother country and didn't want to hurt the people from their mother country.

Qing certainly did not regard josun as a mother country when Huang tai ji personally led 100,000 Manchus,Mongols and Han bannermen to subjugate josun during the second experdition of Korea.
remember Samjeondo Monument?삼전도비/三田渡碑.

coco2000, on Feb 13 2006, 02:00 AM, said:

** In Josun sanggosa(조선 상고사) by Shin Chae-Ho, Shin says, in its introduction, that the Huns, Mongols, Yo Dynasty (遼,거란) and Ryeo-Jin should be recognized as tribes of Han(韓, Korea) ; we have to study to reveal when each tribe evolved from Han(韓, Korea).

If Huns, Mongols, Khitans and Jurchens are actually just Koreans it certainly would make studying history easier, but I have doubts.

That is all for now. till I can be bothered.

This post has been edited by MING-LOYALIST: 13 February 2006 - 04:09 AM

[Gubook Janggoon]

Hey Coco2000, I have a few problems with your post and some questions.

Quote

History of Ryeo-Jin(Goguryo+Jin(Balhae) and Nooruhachi, the Great Great lover of Shilla
The founder of Kim dynasty and Qing empire, Nooruhachi was born in 1559. He changed his family into 'Ae-Shin-Ghak-Ra(愛新覺蘿) which means 'Love Shilla(AeShin 愛薪) and Engrave Shilla(KhakRa 覺蘿).

If Nurhaci named his people after Barhae and Goguryeo, why would he have a name like "Loves Shilla"? Shilla and Goguryeo hated each others guts.

Quote

*** In Sindamminsa(신담민사), Book on Korean history by Go Dong-Young(Korean) it says 'The Ae-Shin-Ghak-Ra(Lover of Shilla and Engraving Shilla on his heart)' is a descendant of the Kim (Royal family of Shilla). After the fall of Shilla the princes had scattered around Baekdoo mountain, Kumghang mountain and Hokryongghang(흑룡강) province and then later they united and rose again.

How recently was this book published, and if it was recently, what primary sources does Go Dong-Young use to support this claim?

Quote

*** PalGiGoon(PalGi Jedo) has 8 different characteristic colours in each individual military flag. This is organization which unified Military and Economy ; they worked on farms when there was no war but with orders for the mobilization of war they ran riding on a horse toward battle field with their flags. - * this kind of system of mobile troops was much similiar to what Goong Ye (궁예, the last King of Goguryeo(870-918) and the founder of Coryeo with Wang Gun) did.
NooRuHaChi said "This military system was performed originally by Goong Ye in Goguryeo and I have followed him." - Yeon-Sa (연사, 演史), Book of Qing Empire.

Gungye was not the last king of Goguryeo. He was the predecessor of Wang Geon. Gungye set the foundation for Goryeo, and Wang Geon is credited as the first king of the state. Gungye was the the B****** son of a Shilla king and was raised as a monk.

Quote

** In KimSa(金史, 금사, history book of Kim dynasty), it says "the Founder of Kim dynasty is Hap-Bo" "He was 60 years old when he just left Coryeo." " His older brother Ahgohobol didn't follow him. Ahgohobol stayed in Coryeo"

It does seem that one of the Jin dynasty's founders was Korean, but this has little to do with Nurhaci.






Hey Ming Loyalist:

Quote

This is from korean history websites?
Man, thats some garbage history.

You have to remember that these are extreme Korean nationalist sites that specialize in revisionism. They hardly represent the mainstream of Korean academia.

Quote

First of all what is this "Han(Khan, 韓, Korean)" Khan is written as "汗" not "韩".

The H and K sound are often interchangable in the Korean language, and it is not rare to see H sounds and K sounds switch around. You see this even with Sino-words in Japan. Words normally pronounced with an H in Korea or China, are often pronounced with a K instead in Japan

Quote

The Qing did NOT share baekdoo san with josun they hog it all. It was PRC that let NK share it.

There was a a strip of no mans land between Josun and Qing where no koreans were allowed near except officials.

The Qing did try to set up border along Baekdusan (Baitoushan), but efforts failed and the real border between the Qing and Joseon was very blurred.

[naruwan]

Quote

History of Ryeo-Jin(Goguryo+Jin(Balhae) and Nooruhachi, the Great Great lover of Shilla
The founder of Kim dynasty and Qing empire, Nooruhachi was born in 1559. He changed his family into 'Ae-Shin-Ghak-Ra(愛新覺蘿) which means 'Love Shilla(AeShin 愛薪) and Engrave Shilla(KhakRa 覺蘿).

My biggest problem is with this line.

People have been over this before.

Ashin is Gold in manchurian.

It means gold in other north/central languages too.

Gurou is assgined family name that I believe Grasy has explained before.

Taking translated Kanji of foreign words and try to explain the meaning by Kanji's face meaning is one of my biggest pet-peevs.

I have used this example before.

If someone's name was translated to Chin-Fang, doesn't mean you can conclude that he has fangs growing on his chin.

Translations are translations.

If you didn't try to translate Nurhachi, then why did you try to translate Aishin-Gurou?

[coco2000]

MING-LOYALIST, on Feb 13 2006, 04:03 AM, said:

This is from korean history websites?
Man, thats some garbage history.

If Huns, Mongols, Khitans and Jurchens are actually just Koreans it certainly would make studying history easier, but I have doubts.

That is all for now. till I can be bothered.

This is not garbage.
You, Ming would you read this thread carefully one more time? I haven't created history nor have distorted the truths. The quotations the historians on the website quoted are all written in history books they have worked on.
Don't just say NO!!! When you say YES or NO you need to have the reasons why you answer like that.
I know "삼전도비 사건". According to what i have learned from the website it has been also distorted by Yi-Josun.

This post has been edited by coco2000: 13 February 2006 - 08:35 AM

[coco2000]

Gubook Janggoon, on Feb 13 2006, 04:44 AM, said:

Hey Coco2000, I have a few problems with your post and some questions.
If Nurhaci named his people after Barhae and Goguryeo, why would he have a name like "Loves Shilla"? Shilla and Goguryeo hated each others guts.

How recently was this book published, and if it was recently, what primary sources does Go Dong-Young use to support this claim?

Gungye was not the last king of Goguryeo. He was the predecessor of Wang Geon. Gungye set the foundation for Goryeo, and Wang Geon is credited as the first king of the state. Gungye was the the B****** son of a Shilla king and was raised as a monk.

It does seem that one of the Jin dynasty's founders was Korean, but this has little to do with Nurhaci.

Even though Shilla and Goguryeo and BaekJe had wars to conquer each other, they didn't consider themselves as different peoples each other as they came from one root, and it had been already over 500 years since Korean land had been unified : no more enemys for each other, for Ryeo-Jin(including Nurhachi) Goguryeo people and Shilla people were just their ancestors.

The book, Sindanminsa(신단민사, not sindamminsa, my mistake) I don't know about this book well but it is one of history books on ancient korean history. Go dong young is not the author of the book. He has just translated it into modern language.

About GoongYe(궁예) and Wang Gun, your explanation is more accurate.

The founders of Balhae? What do you mean? The founder of Balhae is Dae Jo Young (大祖榮) and to the fall of Balhae the Kings of Balhae were all 'Dae'

This post has been edited by coco2000: 13 February 2006 - 10:47 AM

[Gubook Janggoon]

Quote

Even though Shilla and Goguryeo and BaekJe had wars to conquer each other, they didn't consider themselves as different peoples each other as they came from one root, and it had been already over 500 years since Korean land had been unified : no more enemys for each other, for Ryeo-Jin(including Nurhachi) Goguryeo people and Shilla people were just their ancestors.

Ok, granted that what you claim is true, there's also another problem with the name Ryeo-Jin. Ryeo-Jin is commonly called Jurchen in English, so I"m going to call them Jurchen from now on. Jurchen in traditional Chinese is written: 女眞. Now let's take a look at Goguryeo and Jin (Barhae). Goguryeo is 高句麗 and Jin (Barhae) is 振. Now let's take what would be the Ryeo from Goguryeo and the Jin from Jin (Barhe) and put them together. 麗振. Now let's look at the characters for Jurchen: 女眞. Totally different.

Quote

The book, Sindanminsa(신단민사, not sindamminsa, my mistake) I don't know about this book well but it is one of history books on ancient korean history. Go dong young is not the author of the book. He has just translated it into modern language.

Is Shindanminsa quoted in either the Samguk Sagi or the Samguk Yusa?

Quote

About GoongYe(궁예) and Wang Gun, your explanation is more accurate.

Thanks, Gungye wasn't even alive during Goguryeo's reign.

Quote

The founders of Balhae? What do you mean? The founder of Balhae is Dae Jo Young (大祖榮) and to the fall of Balhae the Kings of Balhae were all 'Dae'

Sorry, this is a bit of a wording mistake on my part. When I say the Jin dynasty, I talk about what we know as 금나라, namely the Jurchen dynasty. Jin is the Mandarin pronounciation for 金. I always refer to Barhae as Barhae.

[coco2000]

This is for Naruwan

My biggest problem is with this line.

People have been over this before.

Ashin is Gold in manchurian.

It means gold in other north/central languages too.

Gurou is assgined family name that I believe Grasy has explained before.

Taking translated Kanji of foreign words and try to explain the meaning by Kanji's face meaning is one of my biggest pet-peevs.

I have used this example before.

If someone's name was translated to Chin-Fang, doesn't mean you can conclude that he has fangs growing on his chin.

Translations are translations.

If you didn't try to translate Nurhachi, then why did you try to translate Aishin-Gurou?
[/quote]
---------------
RE :
Sorry but I don't understand what you mean exactly. What is Kanji?
Did you mean Koreans translate or interpretate chanese characters in different way?

Wahtever way Korean historians have translated AishinJiryo(or AishinGurou), the two meanings are very related in Shilla.

Nurhachi is his first name and Kim(金)was his family name. He, later, has changed his family name into AishinJiryo(AishinGurou).
Hope this would help you.

This post has been edited by coco2000: 13 February 2006 - 08:49 PM

[coco2000]

Gubook Janggoon, on Feb 13 2006, 04:05 PM, said:

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Ok, granted that what you claim is true, there's also another problem with the name Ryeo-Jin. Ryeo-Jin is commonly called Jurchen in English, so I"m going to call them Jurchen from now on. Jurchen in traditional Chinese is written: 女眞. Now let's take a look at Goguryeo and Jin (Barhae). Goguryeo is 高句麗 and Jin (Barhae) is 振. Now let's take what would be the Ryeo from Goguryeo and the Jin from Jin (Barhe) and put them together. 麗振. Now let's look at the characters for Jurchen: 女眞. Totally different.

Korean historians claims that the name "女眞" has been invented by Chinese government so that they hide the truth that they are descendants of Korean. Do you know what 女 and 眞 mean? Their meanings are "Female" and "True" and it could be "True female group" Why for only Femal, not for male?.
Who would name themselve "True Female"

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Is Shindanminsa quoted in either the Samguk Sagi or the Samguk Yusa?

I don't think so. Korean historians don't rely on these books 100%. Some say that Samguk Sagi was distorted by Yi Josun in the course of transcribing it and Samguk Yusa is just a Buddhist book.
More than 200,000 volumes of thousands categories of Korean books(including History) by our ancestors were burned out by Japan and they still keep uncountalbe Korean history books they had robbed in its court library.
Shindanminsa seems to be a book which written based on our burned and robbed books.

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Thanks, Gungye wasn't even alive during Goguryeo's reign.

He was a king of Goguryeo, posterior Goguryeo (901∼918)

[Gubook Janggoon]

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Korean historians claims that the name "女眞" has been invented by Chinese government so that they hide the truth that they are descendants of Korean. Do you know what 女 and 眞 mean? Their meanings are "Female" and "True" and it could be "True female group" Why for only Femal, not for male?.
Who would name themselve "True Female"

I suspect that 女眞 was just a Chinese attempt at expressing the Jurchen's name phonetically. It seems to really mean nothing, it's just a way to write their name. In perspective does 麗振 make any sense either?

Let's also take a look at the pronounciations of the first character of both 女眞 and 麗振. 女 is Nu in Mandarin and Yeo in Korean. 麗 is Li in Mandarin and Ryeo in Korean. There's not even much of a similarity in the pronounciation of the two terms. If the Chinese government was going to corrupt the name, wouldn't they choose characters with at least similar pronounciations?

Question: Which Chinese government are you claiming distorted the Jurchen name and why would they do such a thing?

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I don't think so. Korean historians don't rely on these books 100%. Some say that Samguk Sagi was distorted by Yi Josun in the course of transcribing it and Samguk Yusa is just a Buddhist book.
More than 200,000 volumes of thousands categories of Korean books(including History) by our ancestors were burned out by Japan and they still keep uncountalbe Korean history books they had robbed in its court library.
Shindanminsa seems to be a book which written based on our burned and robbed books.

Why would the Joseon dynasty distort the Samguk Sagi? There's no reason for anything like that to have happened. The fact of the matter is that the Samguk Sagi and the Samguk Yusa are the only existing Korean texts from older times. The validity of books that are "recently rediscovered" or not quoted in either the Samguk Sagi or the Samguk Yusa is highly questionable. You can't use a source that had questionable validity to support your claims.

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He was a king of Goguryeo, posterior Goguryeo (901∼918)

Gungye was virtually the first king of Hugoguryeo, but that doesn't make him one of the kings of Goguryeo.

Note: Once again the views presented by coco2000 represent the extreme end of Korean Nationalist history and does not represent anything mainstream in the Korean academia.

[coco2000]

[quote name='Gubook Janggoon' post='4790141' date='Feb 13 2006, 09:51 PM']

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Let's also take a look at the pronounciations of the first character of both 女眞 and 麗振. 女 is Nu in Mandarin and Yeo in Korean. 麗 is Li in Mandarin and Ryeo in Korean. There's not even much of a similarity in the pronounciation of the two terms. If the Chinese government was going to corrupt the name, wouldn't they choose characters with at least similar pronounciations?

ㅇ=ㄹ same pronounciations in Korea. We pronounce both 려진 and 여진.

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Question: Which Chinese government are you claiming distorted the Jurchen name and why would they do such a thing?

Then what do you think about their national project to rob Goguryeo history?

http://www.chinahist...opic=8868&st=30
This would help you to learn why they call Manchurian 女眞

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Note: Once again the views presented by coco2000 represent the extreme end of Korean Nationalist history and does not represent anything mainstream in the Korean academia.

I tell you about two books the historians(on the web site) mainly quote.
These are books of Qing Empire. According to the informer to the website, these two books are ones which were saved from "Burning Out Books of Qing Empire" after the fall of Qing empire. One of Qing empire's discendant possesses these books in his home and the Korean historian could acquire the copies of the books on his travel tracing back Korean ancestors.

Even before the books were found, there Korean people have been saying commomly that Qing, Yuan, Yo(要, 거란) are tribes of Korea and the books seem to answer our questions.
If you dodn't believe what i say I do have no more things to say.

You won't believe in the two books because the two are not publised nor you haven't seen them yourself.
Anyway i just tried to convey what Korean historians announce. You don't call the Korean historians' analyzation extreme nationalists' claim. This is part of history.
I can share anything i believe with others here.
If you don't believe i don't care but don't judge me that way.

This post has been edited by coco2000: 14 February 2006 - 12:26 AM

[coco2000]

Gubook Janggoon, on Feb 13 2006, 09:51 PM, said:

I suspect that 女眞 was just a Chinese attempt at expressing the Jurchen's name phonetically. It seems to really mean nothing, it's just a way to write their name. In perspective does 麗振 make any sense either?

Let's also take a look at the pronounciations of the first character of both 女眞 and 麗振. 女 is Nu in Mandarin and Yeo in Korean. 麗 is Li in Mandarin and Ryeo in Korean. There's not even much of a similarity in the pronounciation of the two terms. If the Chinese government was going to corrupt the name, wouldn't they choose characters with at least similar pronounciations?

Question: Which Chinese government are you claiming distorted the Jurchen name and why would they do such a thing?
Why would the Joseon dynasty distort the Samguk Sagi? There's no reason for anything like that to have happened. The fact of the matter is that the Samguk Sagi and the Samguk Yusa are the only existing Korean texts from older times. The validity of books that are "recently rediscovered" or not quoted in either the Samguk Sagi or the Samguk Yusa is highly questionable. You can't use a source that had questionable validity to support your claims.
Gungye was virtually the first king of Hugoguryeo, but that doesn't make him one of the kings of Goguryeo.

Note: Once again the views presented by coco2000 represent the extreme end of Korean Nationalist history and does not represent anything mainstream in the Korean academia.

YOu don't even have sources to reject my announcements. Do you always just say No! I don't Believe it!" when you don't want to believe things to be true.
If you can't believe what i said why don't you study yourself to learn if what i said is true or not befer you crying out "NO"
Then what is the origns of Jurchen (女眞)? Why don't you study the books they quote like 만주원류고, 송막기문, 조선상고사, 연사, 청연사, etc. yourself? And would you tell me if the Korean historians were ling or not?

By the way are you one of big fans of Wikpedia or something? You really really believe it but don't believe Korean historians. hmmmm

This post has been edited by coco2000: 14 February 2006 - 12:41 AM

[Gubook Janggoon]

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ㅇ=ㄹ same pronounciations in Korea. We pronounce both 려진 and 여진.

In Korean yes, but is it the same in say Jurchen/Manchu or Chinese? We're talking about the Jurchens here, not Joseon Korea, so you can't impose Joseon Korea's pronounciations on the Jurchen/Manchus.

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Then what do you think about their national project to rob Goguryeo history?

http://www.chinahist...opic=8868&st=30
This would help you to learn why they call Manchurian 女眞

I don't agree with what the PRC says about Goguryeo either. Are you saying that the PRC changed the Jurchen characters from 麗振 to 女眞?

Quote

I tell you about two books the historians(on the web site) mainly quote.
These are books of Qing Empire. According to the informer to the website, these two books are ones which were saved from "Burning Out Books of Qing Empire" after the fall of Qing empire. One of Qing empire's discendant possesses these books in his home and the Korean historian could acquire the copies of the books on his travel tracing back Korean ancestors.

Do we have anyone here familiar with Qing texts that can attest to this claim?

Quote

Even before the books were found, there Korean people have been saying commomly that Qing, Yuan, Yo(要, 거란) are tribes of Korea and the books seem to answer our questions.
If you dodn't believe what i say I do have no more things to say.

Granted I don't know much about all of the people you listed, but I wouldn't doubt any sort of relationship. They all lived right next to each other, so there probably is some kind of kinship between Koreans, Khitan, Mongols, Jurchens, and Chinese. That's totally different from saying that the Khitan, Mongols, and Jurchens are tribes of Korea. Could they all be related? Sure. But to put them all under the umbrella label of "Korean" seems very fishy to me.

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You won't believe in the two books because the two are not publised nor you haven't seen them yourself.
Anyway i just tried to convey what Korean historians announce. You don't call the Korean historians' analyzation extreme nationalists' claim. This is part of history.

I don't believe the two texts because as far as I can tell, they didn't exist in antiquity. If you can find any mainstream Korean historian that supports your claims, I'll believe them too.

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I can share anything i believe with others here.
If you don't believe i don't care but don't judge me that way.

You do have every right to share what you belive here. That's the beauty of these internet forums, but I also have the right to challenge and debate your claims. We're all here to discuss and learn from one another.

Quote

YOu don't even have sources to reject my announcements. Do you always just say No! I don't Believe it!" when you don't want to believe things to be true.
If you can't believe what i said why don't you study yourself to learn if what i said is true or not befer you crying out "NO"
Then what is the origns of 여진? Why don't you study the books they quote like 만주원류고, 송막기문, 조선상고사, 연사, 청연사, etc. yourself? And would you tell me if the Korean historians were ling or not?

Likewise, you provide no real sources and demand that I believe every word you say. Maybe it's because of my Western education, but I've been trained to be a skeptic. I find it hard to believe something that can't be backed up.

The origins of the Jurchens is still up to debate, but their ancestors were most likely the Mohoe (Malgal) people. Can you point out somewhere in the Samguk Sagi or the Samguk Yusa where it is stated that the Malgal were related to either Goguryeo, Baekje, Shilla or any of the other states considered today to be Korean during that period?

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By the way are you one of big fan of Wikpedia or something? You really really believe it but don't believe Korean historians. hmmmm

Wikipedia's a quick and dirty source that isn't always right. I like to rely on it when I don't have much time to look through any of my other sources. The sad fact of the matter though is that Wikipedia doesn't endorse extreme nationailst views of history and tends to be a lot more correct than say some of the more modern extreme nationalist historians.