Zhuge Liang tried to avoid conflict with Wu?

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#1 grandeur

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 08:57 AM

Zhuge liang always try to avoid conflict with Wu because of his brother Zhuge Jin who was serving Sun quan of Wu? Pls Share your views on this Topic.

This post has been edited by Yun: 28 February 2006 - 04:30 AM

^_^ "We are more often frightened than hurt; and we suffer more from imagination than from reality."

#2 jiangji

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 12:03 PM

It has little to do with Zhuge Jin. Zhuge Liang need the help of Wu kingdom to defeat a much stronger enemy in the north, Wei especially when Shu-Han lose the entire JingZhou to Sun Quan. The Shu-Han is not capable of facing a two-front wars.

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#3 CARDINAL009

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 09:03 PM

To succeed in life, one needs more allies than enemies (esp. in close quarters).

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#4 grandeur

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 09:09 PM

True is better to have more allies than more enemies. But none of u feel that Zhuge Liang was partially being affected by the relationship of his elder brother of Zhuge JIn?

^_^ "We are more often frightened than hurt; and we suffer more from imagination than from reality."

#5 Iamnick

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 09:19 PM

he made sure that he an his brother hardly ever saw each other, and never talked alone, just to avoid that sort of suspiscion.

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#6 snowybeagle

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 09:27 PM

I'm sure Zhuge Liang would have no qualms benefitting his faction at the expense of Wu, and it had nothing to do with Zhuge Jin serving Wu.

The primary objective of Zhuge Liang was to help Liu Bei restore power to the Han dynasty.
The main obstacle after the Battle of Crimson Cliffs was the faction of Cao Cao.
Even if Zhuge Jin was serving Cao Cao instead, Zhuge Liang would not hesitate to deal with the Wei.

In fact, Zhuge Liang had realized Liu Bei's position was highly disadvantageous and to totally conquer the territories of Cao Cao (& later Cao Pi) by force would be extremely difficult, if at all possible.

What Zhuge Liang was after through his campaigns was to gain a strategic position of controlling the historical capitals of Chang'an and LuoYang, thereby legitimising and re-establishing the rule of the Liu clan.

With that strategic gain, he hoped to precipitate breaking up of the Cao's faction and luring over Cao's supporters into switching allegiance to the "true" Son of Heaven.

Since his objectives were Chang'an and Luoyang, there was no long-term objective which could be gained from conflicting with Wu. Zhuge Liang was not about to go and conquer Wu, and consolidate the territories together with Jingzhou and Yizhou, to strengthen his army against the powerful Cao Cao.

Doing so would take too long, time which he did not have. He knew that the hearts and minds of the populace of Wu was solidly with the Sun clan who had name their name there for "3 generations".

#7 grandeur

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 09:55 PM

I can see that Zhuge Liang took the whole overview of situation not based on only kinship matters. National issue weights more than family issue for nobleman.

This post has been edited by grandeur: 07 February 2006 - 12:15 PM

^_^ "We are more often frightened than hurt; and we suffer more from imagination than from reality."

#8 sima old bandit

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 12:03 PM

If his kinship ties meant more than his professional duty then he couldn't attack Wei either since there was Zhuge's in all 3 kingdoms and the ones in Shu would have held a much higher rank while he was in power.

#9 CARDINAL009

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 08:43 PM

Zhuge Liang knew what was the big picture.

Also, knew never attend a war that he cannot win immediately.

The secret of completing one's goal without getting damaged is finding the path of least resistence.

This post has been edited by CARDINAL009: 20 February 2006 - 08:55 PM

#10 Anshao

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 12:12 AM

grandeur, on Feb 6 2006, 09:57 PM, said:

Zhuge liang always try to avoid conflict with Wu because of his brother Zhuge Jin who was serving Sun quan of Wu? Pls Share your views on this Topic.

i think of a few reason why, as liu bei lost jingzhou to sun quan and lord guan yun. plus cao cao is attack from hanzhong.. lets not forget there is meng huo trying to invade as well for a moment. then again.. naval battle never been SHU army fav.. they were more on land.. when it come to naval.. Sun Quan is far more better and experience.. with zhuge jin? at Wu i don really think it does make a different at all.. . they need W to backstab Wei from the flank when Zhuge liang fight from chang an.. this way.. it will put WEI in serious trouble.. but sadly.. such not really came.

#11 Sun Weiming

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 12:24 AM

grandeur, on Feb 6 2006, 09:57 PM, said:

Zhuge liang always try to avoid conflict with Wu because of his brother Zhuge Jin who was serving Sun quan of Wu? Pls Share your views on this Topic.

->Although Liang on the respect to his brother Jin, he does not care much about him as Liang knew that Jin is very loyal to the Wu.
->The evidence for Liang not caring much about his brother is when Jin was called to go to Liu Bei to ask for the return of Jing Zhou, Liang answered for Liu Bei saying that he will write a letter to Guan Yu to give up -ing Zhou and return it to Wu Kingdom. This is to respect his brother, not giving him difficulties when Jin return to Wu to report to Sun Quan.
->But as soon as Jin left, Liang wrote a letter to Guan Yu calling him to watch over Jing Zhou more closely than before and also told him not to return it to Wu.
->Liang always trying to avoid conflict with Wu because he knew that Cao Wei in the north is difficult to resist and needs to ally with Wu together fight Wei. To achive this, Liang ensures that there is peace between Wu and Shu-Han.

#12 bayonet

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 09:47 AM

Zhu ge liang also has a brother kinship serving in Wei, though not very famous.

i forget his name

#13 snowybeagle

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 10:13 PM

《世说新语．品藻》：「蜀得其龙，吴得其虎，魏得其狗。」

In one Chinese collection of writings from the era:

Zhuge Liang (诸葛亮) served Shu Han (蜀汉), was likened to the dragon (龙) of the clan.

Older brother Zhuge Jin (诸葛瑾) served Wu (吴), was likened to the tiger (虎) of the clan.

Younger cousin Zhuge Dan (诸葛诞) served Wei (魏), was likened to the dog/hound (狗) of the clan.

The term "dog" was used as in a "meritorious dog" (功狗), one whose had merits but lacked the level of achievements of that of a dragon or a tiger.

Zhuge Dan was in charge of the personnel department (吏部郎) and was renowned for his impartiality in promoting staff.