[grandeur]

Any one know about this book? What is so influential that it was a famous book in chinese history?

詩經 卷一

周南

關雎 1

關關雎鳩，在河之洲。窈窕淑女，君子好逑。
參差荇菜，左右流之。窈窕淑女，寤寐求之。
求之不得，寤寐思服。悠哉悠哉！輾轉反側。
參差荇菜，左右采之。窈窕淑女，琴瑟友之。
參差荇菜，左右芼之。窈窕淑女，鍾鼓樂之。

this is first chapter if i'm not wrong, any genius know what it means?

[grandeur]

Thanks. Any one else can explain the real meaning of poem?

[General_Zhaoyun]

grandeur, on Feb 6 2006, 11:43 PM, said:

Any one know about this book? What is so influential that it was a famous book in chinese history?

詩經 卷一

周南

關雎 1

關關雎鳩，在河之洲。窈窕淑女，君子好逑。
參差荇菜，左右流之。窈窕淑女，寤寐求之。
求之不得，寤寐思服。悠哉悠哉！輾轉反側。
參差荇菜，左右采之。窈窕淑女，琴瑟友之。
參差荇菜，左右芼之。窈窕淑女，鍾鼓樂之。

this is first chapter if i'm not wrong, any genius know what it means?

關關雎鳩、在河之洲。
窈宨淑女、君子好逑。

參差荇菜、左右流之。
窈宨淑女、寤寐求之。
求之不得、寤寐思服。
悠哉悠哉、輾轉反側。

參差荇菜、左右采之。
窈宨淑女、琴瑟友之。
參差荇菜、左右芼之。
窈宨淑女、 鍾鼓樂之。

The translation is as follow

Guan-guan go the ospreys ,
On the islet in the river .
The modest , retiring , virtuous , young lady : --
For our prince a good mate she .

Here long , there short , is the duckweed ,
To the left , to the right , borne about by the current .
The modest , retiring , virtuous , young lady : --
Waking and sleeping , he sought her .
He sought her and found her not ,
And waking and sleeping he thought about her .
Long he thought ; oh ! long and anxiously ;
On his side , on his back , he turned , and back again .

Here long , there short , is the duckweed ;
On the left , on the right , we gather it .
The modest , retiring , virtuous , young lady : --
With lutes , small and large , let us give her friendly welcome .
Here long , there short , is the duckweed ;
On the left , on the right , we cook and present it .
The modest , retiring , virtuous , young lady : --
With bells and drums let us show our delight in her .

If you wish to read the english translation about Shijing, see

http://etext.virgini...ng/AnoShih.html

[grandeur]

Thanks for the translation. Do u know it's real meaning?

This post has been edited by grandeur: 06 February 2006 - 10:23 PM

[lingzhixiangu灵芝仙姑]

Shijing (詩經) was the very first and oldest collection of Chinese poetry. It is an anthology of songs, poems, and hymns. The musical components was lost long ago. It consists of 311 poems (6 without text) dating from the Zhou Dynasty (1027-771 BC) to the Spring & Autumn Period (770-476 BC). The content covers all aspects of the society of the Zhou Dynasty ranging from love, work, war, oppression and resistance, sacrifices and feasts and etc. Its compilation has also proven that prose is not the earliest literature existed. It is a classic because its literary standard was superb and exceptional compared to all other world literatures of the same period. It also had profound impact and influence to all other poetry created/evolved for many dynasties that followed.

This particular poem is a love poem, describing a man of the royal family fallen in love with a girl collecting edible water plants, and his efforts to court her. The literary and rhyming style in this poem has significant impact for most love poems that followed, over a long period – 2000 years.

[Nienna]

I have a few questions to ask and would be very grateful for any answers:

1) Where were the other "world literatures" at the time of Shi Jing?

2) How does Shi Jing affect later poetry in format? This particular lyric poem sounds like a song with a rhyming scheme rather different from later poems? Sorry for the vagueness of the question

3) This is a bit off-topic but when was the first Chinese novel written?

Thank you!

[lingzhixiangu灵芝仙姑]

Nienna, on Feb 12 2006, 09:07 AM, said:

I have a few questions to ask and would be very grateful for any answers:

1) Where were the other "world literatures" at the time of Shi Jing?

2) How does Shi Jing affect later poetry in format? This particular lyric poem sounds like a song with a rhyming scheme rather different from later poems? Sorry for the vagueness of the question

3) This is a bit off-topic but when was the first Chinese novel written?

Thank you!

Wow! These are big questions.

For Q 1, what comes to mind is Egyptian, Indian, probably Greek (this needs validation) literature.

I am in the midst of preparing an exam (Chinese literature), will come back to these other 2 Qs once time permits. Other members are welcome to tackle these Qs.

Cheers!

[jwrevak]

Nienna, on Feb 11 2006, 05:07 PM, said:

I have a few questions to ask and would be very grateful for any answers:

1) Where were the other "world literatures" at the time of Shi Jing?

Interersting question. The Shi Jing was probably composed and edited over a lengthy period during the early Chou dynasty and Warring States period (c.1027-481 BC).

With this in mind, here are selected important authors and works of literature that relate to this general period. All dates are approximate.

1500 Rig Veda (Ancient Aryan hymns)
1580-1350 Ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead
1400 Torah (the first five books of the Hebrew Bible)
1200 Sin-liqe-unninni's Akkadian version of Gilgamesh (Ancient Babylonian epic)
1000 Ancient Egyptian narratives: Instructions of Ani, Story of Wenamum
800 Homer's Iliad and Odyssey (Ancient Greek epics)
700 Hesiod's Works and Days, Theogony (Ancient Greek poems)
525-456 Aeschalus (Ancient Greek playwright)
522-443 Pindar (Ancient Greek poet)
427-347 Plato (Ancient Greek philosopher)

[Nienna]

Wow.. thank you both for the information... but surely it's difficult to compare Shi Jing with them and say which the best is? I've only read some of Homer's works and some of Pindar's, and not much of Shi Jing I'm ashamed to say, but isn't it hard to say that Shi Jing is better when the cultural backgrounds are so different? Or does it all depend on one's own opinion?

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Quote

1500 Rig Veda (Ancient Aryan hymns)
1580-1350 Ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead
1400 Torah (the first five books of the Hebrew Bible)

Things to consider, the Rig Veda's date is highly controversial, there are scholars that think most of it was not compiled much later, but the vedic age didn't began until after 1200 b.c. The Torah is certainly not from 1400b.c., it is a work of almost a mellenium later.

[somechineseperson]

warhead, on Feb 12 2006, 08:35 PM, said:

Things to consider, the Rig Veda's date is highly controversial, there are scholars that think most of it was not compiled much later, but the vedic age didn't began until after 1200 b.c. The Torah is certainly not from 1400b.c., it is a work of almost a mellenium later.

Actually according to what I know regarding the Torah scholars think it was either written in 1500 BC or 1200 BC.

[somechineseperson]

lingzhixiangu灵芝, on Feb 8 2006, 05:21 AM, said:

Shijing (詩經) was the very first and oldest collection of Chinese poetry. It is an anthology of songs, poems, and hymns. The musical components was lost long ago. It consists of 311 poems (6 without text) dating from the Zhou Dynasty (1027-771 BC) to the Spring & Autumn Period (770-476 BC). The content covers all aspects of the society of the Zhou Dynasty ranging from love, work, war, oppression and resistance, sacrifices and feasts and etc. Its compilation has also proven that prose is not the earliest literature existed. It is a classic because its literary standard was superb and exceptional compared to all other world literatures of the same period. It also had profound impact and influence to all other poetry created/evolved for many dynasties that followed.

This particular poem is a love poem, describing a man of the royal family fallen in love with a girl collecting edible water plants, and his efforts to court her. The literary and rhyming style in this poem has significant impact for most love poems that followed, over a long period – 2000 years.

Not really. A few chapters in the Shang Shu (尚书), which are in prose form, are probably older than or at least just as old as the Shi Jing and dates back to the Shang Dynasty.

This post has been edited by somechineseperson: 12 February 2006 - 07:38 PM

[somechineseperson]

jwrevak, on Feb 12 2006, 09:00 AM, said:

Interersting question. The Shi Jing was probably composed and edited over a lengthy period during the early Chou dynasty and Warring States period (c.1027-481 BC).

With this in mind, here are selected important authors and works of literature that relate to this general period. All dates are approximate.

1500 Rig Veda (Ancient Aryan hymns)
1580-1350 Ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead
1400 Torah (the first five books of the Hebrew Bible)
1200 Sin-liqe-unninni's Akkadian version of Gilgamesh (Ancient Babylonian epic)
1000 Ancient Egyptian narratives: Instructions of Ani, Story of Wenamum
800 Homer's Iliad and Odyssey (Ancient Greek epics)
700 Hesiod's Works and Days, Theogony (Ancient Greek poems)
525-456 Aeschalus (Ancient Greek playwright)
522-443 Pindar (Ancient Greek poet)
427-347 Plato (Ancient Greek philosopher)

I've never seen 1027 BC quoted as the starting date for the Western Zhou Dynasty. According to traditional Chinese dates it was 1122 BC and some modern scholars think it was probably around 1040 BC.

Also, a few of the poems in Shi Jing actually dates back to the Shang Dynasty. For example this one:

304. 長發 CHANG FA

濬哲維商、長發其祥。
洪水芒芒、禹敷下土方、外大國是疆。
幅隕既長、有娀方將、帝立子生商。

玄王桓撥、受小國是達、受大國是達。
率履不越、遂視既發。
相土烈烈、海外有截。

帝命不違、至于湯齊。
湯降不遲、聖敬日躋。
昭假遲遲、上帝是祗、帝命式于九圍。

受小球大球、為下國綴旒。
何天之休、不競不絿、不剛不柔、敷政優優、百祿是遒。

受小共大共、為下國駿厖。
何天之龍、敷奏其勇、不震不動、不戁不竦、百祿是總。

武王載旆、有虔秉鉞。
如火烈烈、則莫我敢曷。
苞有三蘗、莫遂莫達、九有有截。
韋顧既伐、昆吾夏桀。

昔在中葉、有震且業。
允也天子、降于鄉士、實維阿衡、實左右商王。

Profoundly wise were [the lords of] Shang,
And long had there appeared the omens [of their dignity].
When the waters of the deluge spread vast abroad,
Yu arranged and divided the regions of the land,
And assigned to the exterior great States their boundaries,
With their borders extending all over [the kingdom].
Then the State of Song began to be great,
And God raised up the son [of its daughter], and founded [the Family of] Shang.

The dark king exercised an effective sway.
Charged with a small State , he commanded success;
Charged with a large State , he commanded success.
He followed his rules of conduct without error;
Wherever he inspected [the people] , they responded [to his instructions].
[Then came] Xiang-tu, all-ardent,
And all [within] the seas , beyond [the middle region], acknowledged his restraints.

The favour of God did not leave [Shang],
And in Tang was found the subject for its display.
Tang was not born too late,
And his wisdom and virtue daily advanced.
Brilliant was the influence of his character [on Heaven] for long,
And God appointed him to be model to the nine regions.

He received the rank-tokens [of the States], small and large,
Which depended on him , like the pendants of a banner; --
So did he receive the blessing of Heaven.
He was neither violent nor remiss,
Neither hard nor soft.
Gently he spread his instructions abroad,
And all dignities and riches were concentrated iin him.

He received the tribute [of the States], large and small,
And he supported them as a strong steed [does its burden]; --
So did he receive the favour of Heaven.
He displayed everywhere his valour,
Unshaken, unmoved,
Unterrified, unscared: --
All dignities were united in him.

The martial king displayed his banner,
And with reverence grasped his axe.
It was like [the case of] a blazing fire,
Which no one can repress.
The root , with its three shoots,
Could make no progress, no growth.
The nine regions were effectually secured by him.
Having smitten [the princes of] Wei and Gu,
He dealt with [the prince of] Kun-wu, and with Jie of Xia.

Formerly in the middle of the period [before Tang],
There was a time of shaking and peril,
But truly did Heaven [then] deal with him as its son,
And sent him down a minister,
Namely A-heng,
Who gave his assistance to the king of Shang.

This post has been edited by somechineseperson: 12 February 2006 - 07:42 PM

[Cote Rotie]

somechineseperson, on Feb 13 2006, 12:37 AM, said:

I've never seen 1027 BC quoted as the starting date for the Western Zhou Dynasty. According to traditional Chinese dates it was 1122 BC and some modern scholars think it was probably around 1040 BC.

Also, a few of the poems in Shi Jing actually dates back to the Shang Dynasty. For example this one:

304. 長發 CHANG FA

Hi! I'm new here, so be kind....
but I just would like to point out that generally, the Shang and Lu 頌 sare considered to be relatively recent compared with the Zhou 頌. While the latter do exhibit traces of ancient religious diction and vocab (comparable to certain 甲骨文 and bronze inscription forms), these are lost in the Lu and Shang, which were probably 're-creations' of some sort or other. The rhyming scheme (as interpolated by Karlgren) would certainly seem to bear this out. So I would propose that one of the Zhou Song like the first (266) would certainly be older than 304.
Certainly, it is highly arguable that certain parts of the Shujing pre-date the majority of the Shijing, as do early bronze vessel inscriptions and the orignal parts of the Yijing (i.e. the original hexagram words not the wings or anything). But dating is such a difficult thing to perform that I am scared of this debate!!!

As for aesthetic value - beauty is in the eye of the 'reader'. I've found bits of the Shijing unbearably tedious (but then again, it's been my PhD thesis topic for six years...), but I've also found bits of Homer and Hesiod boring as well. Having read them both in the original, I find that both have their merits, but beyond the pure question of 'enjoyableness' is the much more fascinating idea of their influence upon Greek and Chinese cultures respectively.
Certainly the Shijing metre was of not great lasting effect, nor was its reliance on peniultimate syllable rhyming!!!

What I do love is the discussion here of the Shijing - long may it last!!!
[apologies for spelling mistakes!!]