I'm surprised nobody have discussed this on this forum, what do you guys think, did Dorgon and the Empress had a history?
History books argued that the rumors are unfound, and that perhaps they might have mistaken this "lecherous" event for Dorgon's taking of Haoge's wife (Haoge was Huang Taiji's eldest son and someone who was jilted from power after his father's death, depending on which camp you're in).
However, others (non-historians I suppose) argue that such an affair was not unlikely because Dorgon and the Empress (Shunzhi's mother) were supposed pretty good looking people of their days. The Dowager Empress was said to be the prettiest Mongol in her days, while some can infer that Dorgon was quite impressive back then as well: in Frederick Wakeman's The Great Enterprise, Dorgon's brother (same mother) Dodo was described as a very tall, impressive looking warrior, so perhaps it's likely that Dorgon fit those descriptions as well.
What seemed the most interesting to me is that before Shunzhi's maturity, the young emperor had to refer Dorgon as the Imperial Regent Father (or something like that); initially, he was only referred to as Imperial Uncle, but later he was elevated to Father? Furthermore, while Huang Taiji was many years senior to the empress, she and Dorgon were about the same age.
Full Version: Dorgon and the Dowager Empress?
I think it's quite possible. didn't Huang Taiji die really early?
This part of history is not very well known, but there's a Chinese TV serial about it called Xiao Zhuang Epic (Xiao Zhuang Mi Shi), with Ma Jing Tao playing as Dorgon and Ning Jing as Xiao Zhuang.
Somehow, the story goes like this.
Xiao Zhuang (Da Yuer) was actually bethrothed to Dorgon (14th son of Nurhachi), but his 4th brother Huang Taiji married her instead. Huang Taiji died very suddenly (some suggesting Dorgon and Da Yuer being part of this, but nevertheless there arised some dynastic struggles between Dorgon and Haoge (the eldest son of Huang Taiji) to see who would become the next emperor. The other banners tried to mediate and in the end it was a decision to choose Fu Ling or Bogor. In the end, the throne fell to Fu Ling and Dorgon was made Prince of She Zheng (the prince who would oversee state matters). In the reign of Shun Zhi, the Manchus entered the pass and defeated the Da Shun government, the Southern Ming government as well as the Da Xi government. China was effectively under Manchu control, but these struggles have led to numerous deaths (as in the Yang Zhou massacre instigated by Dorgon) as well as the order to cut hair (Ti Fa Ling) also instigated by Dorgon.
Heck...running out of time...will talk more...
Somehow, the story goes like this.
Xiao Zhuang (Da Yuer) was actually bethrothed to Dorgon (14th son of Nurhachi), but his 4th brother Huang Taiji married her instead. Huang Taiji died very suddenly (some suggesting Dorgon and Da Yuer being part of this, but nevertheless there arised some dynastic struggles between Dorgon and Haoge (the eldest son of Huang Taiji) to see who would become the next emperor. The other banners tried to mediate and in the end it was a decision to choose Fu Ling or Bogor. In the end, the throne fell to Fu Ling and Dorgon was made Prince of She Zheng (the prince who would oversee state matters). In the reign of Shun Zhi, the Manchus entered the pass and defeated the Da Shun government, the Southern Ming government as well as the Da Xi government. China was effectively under Manchu control, but these struggles have led to numerous deaths (as in the Yang Zhou massacre instigated by Dorgon) as well as the order to cut hair (Ti Fa Ling) also instigated by Dorgon.
Heck...running out of time...will talk more...
Many (including Emperor Qianlong) believed that Dorgon was not a traitor in any way to either Huang Taiji and Shun Zhi. Dorgon was a very arrogant man, and had substantial power. In the early days of Shun Zhi, Dorgon could've easily taken the throne for himself, if that was really what he wanted. The emperor basically had no power. The relationship (in terms of power) between Dorgon and Shun Zhi was not unlike Aobai and Kangxi, except that it was even more extreme. And like Kang Xi, Shun Zhi also saw the removal of Dorgon as his primary goal, if though Dorgon was his uncle and had no real intentions on the throne. "Winners write the history" is a famous Chinese proverb, and that was exactly what happened. More than one hundred years later, the Emperor Qianlong declared Dorgon unguilty and reinstated his descendents to their proper princely title (Rui Qin Wang).
does anyone have an article on the net about this?
One of the great misteries of Qing history was that XiaoZhuang empress actually later married to Dorgon.
This now has some proof that was possible.
Anyway ShunZhi emporer had to call Dorgon 'imperial regent father king' instead of 'imperial regent uncle king'. Even though shunzhi was not Dorgon's son but was HuangTaiJi's.
Dorgon and his brother king Dodo was striped of his title later(after their death) by ShunZhi for ploting to usurp the throne.
later(100 years) this was revoked and Dorgon given a honourary title of emporer.
I would love to know if XiaoZhuang empress actually loved Dorgon or was she simply giving him all sorts of titles to pacify him.
Dorgon acted like a great Manchu chuavanist but said to have desired Manchu/Han equality, only constant war made that impossible.
This now has some proof that was possible.
Anyway ShunZhi emporer had to call Dorgon 'imperial regent father king' instead of 'imperial regent uncle king'. Even though shunzhi was not Dorgon's son but was HuangTaiJi's.
Dorgon and his brother king Dodo was striped of his title later(after their death) by ShunZhi for ploting to usurp the throne.
later(100 years) this was revoked and Dorgon given a honourary title of emporer.
I would love to know if XiaoZhuang empress actually loved Dorgon or was she simply giving him all sorts of titles to pacify him.
Dorgon acted like a great Manchu chuavanist but said to have desired Manchu/Han equality, only constant war made that impossible.
Well there are quiet a few other mystries in the early Qing days... like did Shun Ji acturally die that early or did he really go into monk hood for the death of he's love??? while offical stance is obviously that he died young... rumors never ceased that Shun Ji had acturally not die but lost all interest in being an emperor after he's love died (this could either be true... or it could be because their death seem to be timed very suspiciously)
But Da Yuer was unarguablly one of the 2 most influential women in Qing history (and probably in the top 5 of Chinese history) along with Ci Xi..... she secured the Mongol/Machu relationship for the most part and it was a alliance that the Qing counted on many times... her political prowess is very obvious from before the Manchu entered Shang Hai Guang up through the early days of both Shun Ji AND KangShi...
There was a very old TV series when i was a a young kid (so that's like at least 15 years ago) that was all about her... and her role in pretty much every early Qing dynastic TV series was very important and usually protrait in a pretty positive light.
But Da Yuer was unarguablly one of the 2 most influential women in Qing history (and probably in the top 5 of Chinese history) along with Ci Xi..... she secured the Mongol/Machu relationship for the most part and it was a alliance that the Qing counted on many times... her political prowess is very obvious from before the Manchu entered Shang Hai Guang up through the early days of both Shun Ji AND KangShi...
There was a very old TV series when i was a a young kid (so that's like at least 15 years ago) that was all about her... and her role in pretty much every early Qing dynastic TV series was very important and usually protrait in a pretty positive light.
Xiaozhuangren Grand Empress Dowager
Grand Empress Dowager Xiao Zhuang Wen was the Empress in Manchu and was the grandmother of Emperor Kang Xi of the Qing Dynasty
She was a daughter of a prince of Borjigit, the Khorchin Mongols. Her maiden name was Bumbutai.
She was given to Hong Taiji in 1625 when she was twelve years old. She gave Hong Taiji three daughters and his ninth son, Fu Lin. Her aunt, Jere, was married to Hong Taiji who also became an empress dowager when Hong Taiji died and was succeeded by Xiao Zhuang's son, Shun Zhi.
After Hong Taiji passed away, he didn't leave a will and there was a struggle among his brothers and his eldest son, Hooge, Daisan and Dorgon, brothers of Hong Taiji agreed that Fulin should become the successor and pledged that they would serve the young lord with their absolute loyalty. Hooge was not pleased by this decision and argued that he should succeed his father since he was the eldest son. Hooge was eventually put under house arrest by Prince Dorgon and died during the period.
Dorgon became the regent making decisions for Shun Zhi because the young emperor was a minor. The relationship between the regent and the young emperor was always questioned by historians. After the death of Dorgon, his family was punished by the emperor and all his titles were taken away.
It was believed that Xiao Zhuang married Dorgon after Hong Taiji's death. This probably helped to explain why Dorgon and his brother, Dodo received posthumous punishments.
Empress Dowager Xiao Zhuang played an excellent role for her son. She never interfered her son's decisions unlike Empress Dowager Ci Xi who kept Emperor Guang Xu under house arrest. Xiao Zhuang kept a low profile during her son's reign. Her relationship with her son was always questioned by historians. The demotion of Shun Zhi's first empress who was Xiao Zhuang's niece gave an insight to the mother-son relationship.
Unfortunately, her son died at the age of 24 and his successor was only 8 years old. The new emperor was Kang Xi. Xiao Zhuang was summoned back into the politics of the Qing dynasty. She asked the four appointed regents, Oboi, Sonim, Suksaha and Ebilun to assist her grandson and advised her grandson to learn from his ministers since they were most experienced and had been assisting the late emperor during his reign.
Xiao Zhuang took charge of Kang Xi's upbringing after the death of his mother. When Oboi was posing a threat to Kang Xi's rule, she helped the young emperor to get rid of Oboi. She was never selfish unlike the Empress Dowager Ci Xi.
She rejected the pleasure of the palace probably due to her upbringing in Mongolia. She refused to have her birthday celebrated knowing that it would be costly.
Grand Empress Dowager Xiao Zhuang died in 1688.
information taken from
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/
following what i've read from the internet and watched from tv, which tends to 'make up' more stuff, i get the impression that XiaoZhuang/HieuTrang in viet, doesn't really love Dorgon/DaNhiCon.
if u think about it, Dorgon died when emperor ShunZhi/ThuanTri was only 12, i don't believe the emperor would have been 'old' enough to understand his 'powers'. someone had to have 'showed him the way', at that age i think only his mother would have the chance and was brave enough.
i am bassing this purely on my impressions and imagination, there is no proof what so ever.
Grand Empress Dowager Xiao Zhuang Wen was the Empress in Manchu and was the grandmother of Emperor Kang Xi of the Qing Dynasty
She was a daughter of a prince of Borjigit, the Khorchin Mongols. Her maiden name was Bumbutai.
She was given to Hong Taiji in 1625 when she was twelve years old. She gave Hong Taiji three daughters and his ninth son, Fu Lin. Her aunt, Jere, was married to Hong Taiji who also became an empress dowager when Hong Taiji died and was succeeded by Xiao Zhuang's son, Shun Zhi.
After Hong Taiji passed away, he didn't leave a will and there was a struggle among his brothers and his eldest son, Hooge, Daisan and Dorgon, brothers of Hong Taiji agreed that Fulin should become the successor and pledged that they would serve the young lord with their absolute loyalty. Hooge was not pleased by this decision and argued that he should succeed his father since he was the eldest son. Hooge was eventually put under house arrest by Prince Dorgon and died during the period.
Dorgon became the regent making decisions for Shun Zhi because the young emperor was a minor. The relationship between the regent and the young emperor was always questioned by historians. After the death of Dorgon, his family was punished by the emperor and all his titles were taken away.
It was believed that Xiao Zhuang married Dorgon after Hong Taiji's death. This probably helped to explain why Dorgon and his brother, Dodo received posthumous punishments.
Empress Dowager Xiao Zhuang played an excellent role for her son. She never interfered her son's decisions unlike Empress Dowager Ci Xi who kept Emperor Guang Xu under house arrest. Xiao Zhuang kept a low profile during her son's reign. Her relationship with her son was always questioned by historians. The demotion of Shun Zhi's first empress who was Xiao Zhuang's niece gave an insight to the mother-son relationship.
Unfortunately, her son died at the age of 24 and his successor was only 8 years old. The new emperor was Kang Xi. Xiao Zhuang was summoned back into the politics of the Qing dynasty. She asked the four appointed regents, Oboi, Sonim, Suksaha and Ebilun to assist her grandson and advised her grandson to learn from his ministers since they were most experienced and had been assisting the late emperor during his reign.
Xiao Zhuang took charge of Kang Xi's upbringing after the death of his mother. When Oboi was posing a threat to Kang Xi's rule, she helped the young emperor to get rid of Oboi. She was never selfish unlike the Empress Dowager Ci Xi.
She rejected the pleasure of the palace probably due to her upbringing in Mongolia. She refused to have her birthday celebrated knowing that it would be costly.
Grand Empress Dowager Xiao Zhuang died in 1688.
information taken from
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/
following what i've read from the internet and watched from tv, which tends to 'make up' more stuff, i get the impression that XiaoZhuang/HieuTrang in viet, doesn't really love Dorgon/DaNhiCon.
if u think about it, Dorgon died when emperor ShunZhi/ThuanTri was only 12, i don't believe the emperor would have been 'old' enough to understand his 'powers'. someone had to have 'showed him the way', at that age i think only his mother would have the chance and was brave enough.
i am bassing this purely on my impressions and imagination, there is no proof what so ever.
The Xiaozhuang Empress is apparently buried inappropriately given her rank as a Taihou, which certainly helps fuel these rumors ("太后下嫁"), but academic circles maintain that there's still no conclusive evidence one way or the other on this one. Still it's always a good idea to question everything we see on the tv shows, especially when the Qing is involved, as all the good stories and hearsays make for better entertainment than straight-up history. For obvious reasons, the Qing is subject to more than its share of gossip.
While we're here, Dorgon's posthumous denouncement and eventual rehabilitation are probably best understood as part of the struggle between the throne and the princes and banner lords. Previous to Kangxi's reign there was no actual guarantee that a son of the previous emperor should take power, but by the reign of the Yongzheng Emperor, direct father-son succession had become established. The longevity of the Emperors after Shunzhi played a role, but note that there were no regencies, power-sharing 'agreements' among the beile or serious succession crises after Oboi 鳌拜 all the way to Empress Cixi. By Qianlong's time, he was confident enough with the position of the throne to give credit to the Dorgon Regency for its obviously crucial contributions to the empire. At the same time, Shunzhi's condemnation of Dorgon helped build the foundations of this stability.
Huangtaiji died at 52 years of age, and very suddenly, passing away one evening after taking care of business as usual all day.
While we're here, Dorgon's posthumous denouncement and eventual rehabilitation are probably best understood as part of the struggle between the throne and the princes and banner lords. Previous to Kangxi's reign there was no actual guarantee that a son of the previous emperor should take power, but by the reign of the Yongzheng Emperor, direct father-son succession had become established. The longevity of the Emperors after Shunzhi played a role, but note that there were no regencies, power-sharing 'agreements' among the beile or serious succession crises after Oboi 鳌拜 all the way to Empress Cixi. By Qianlong's time, he was confident enough with the position of the throne to give credit to the Dorgon Regency for its obviously crucial contributions to the empire. At the same time, Shunzhi's condemnation of Dorgon helped build the foundations of this stability.
Huangtaiji died at 52 years of age, and very suddenly, passing away one evening after taking care of business as usual all day.
does anyone have spare time on their hand to translate the book that the film xiao Zhuang Epic was made from?
Could it be possible that Shunzhi was Dorgon's son with XiaoZhuang empress?
QUOTE(AhMan @ Jul 15 2005, 03:40 AM)
Could it be possible that Shunzhi was Dorgon's son with XiaoZhuang empress?
[snapback]4738411[/snapback]
now that you mention it...i wonder
does anyone know?
oh and sumone said earlier in the topic that xiaozhuang was rumored to be envolved in the death of her hubby. could you give a more detailed story.
i think dorgon have no sons at all and shunzi was hong taiji son to respect to all ,i think this are just rumour and i watch this scence on hong kong tvb drama' kam see long kwan ' which starting by lam kar tung and charmaine sheh and i can say maybe this rumour are from wuxia serias .
Zunjing de China History Forum members,
I was stunned to find out that the part about Prince Dorgon and Empress Xiao Zhuang was not well-documented in official Chinese History?! I have read a book in Vietnamese called “Hoang Hau Cung Phi Nha Thanh,” which translated to “Empresses and Concubines of the Qing Dynasty,” where it clearly states the relationship between Prince Dorgon and Empress Xiao Zhuang. Here is a brief summary of what I have read.
To ensure the alliance between Manchu and Mongol, eighth Prince Huang Taiji married a Mongolian Princess, who later became Empress Xiao Duan; she was also the aunt of Empress Xiao Zhuang. Prince Huang Taiji really loved his wife, so he often followed her back to Mongolia to visit her family. Being the closest younger brother of Prince Huang Taiji, Prince Dorgon always accompanied him everywhere he went. Upon arriving at Mongolia , both princes instantly fell in love with Empress Xiao Zhuang. Of course, Prince Dorgon was a better match for her since he was only one year older. Since Empress Xiao Zhuang had always looked up to Prince Huang Taiji as her uncle-in-law, she started to develop feelings for Prince Dorgon. A few years later, Prince Huang Taiji ascended to the throne as the Grand Khan. Shortly afterward, he announced that he would marry Empress Xiao Zhuang as his concubine without knowing the true love between her and his younger brother. Since the marriage was already publicly announced, everybody had to just follow the order.
Emperor Huang Taiji still adored Empress Xiao Zhuang for her beauty and intelligence after a few years of marriage. Despite being cherished by her husband, Empress Xiao Zhuang had always retained her love for Prince Dorgon. In 1638, she gave birth to the Emperor’s ninth son, Fu Lin, whom he loved very much.
In 1643, Emperor Huang Taiji suddenly passed away without appointing a successor, causing his eldest son, Hao Ge, and his younger brother, Dorgon, to fight over the throne. Of course, being the eldest son, Hao Ge had rights for the throne; however, Prince Dorgon had made a greater contribution to the empire than any of the other princes. Since both princes had almost the same amount of troops, a suggestion was made to appoint the other sons of Emperor Huang Taiji. Of course, Prince Dorgon supported Fu Lin, as he was the son of Empress Xiao Zhuang. After a few disputes, Fu Lin finally succeeded to the throne, and Prince Dorgon was appointed as regent since the new Emperor was only six years old.
To make sure Prince Hao Ge had less power, the new Emperor had to refer to Prince Dorgon as “Regent Imperial Uncle.” After waiting for a few years, Prince Dorgon was determined to marry his old lover. However, Empress Xiao Zhuang declined the invitation, believing that this would cause the Han people to think lowly of the royal family. In fury, Prince Dorgon threatened to usurp the throne if she did not change her mind. Knowing that her son’s life and the Qing Empire are in great danger, Empress Xiao Zhuang reluctantly agreed to marry Prince Dorgon, and he was given the title of “Regent Emperor Father.” This marriage was obviously for anything, but love! They did get married, and Empress Xiao Zhuang lived in Prince Dorgon’s mansion until he died suddenly in 1650. Emperor Shun Zhi prepared a grand palace upon his mother’s return.
After Prince Dorgon’s death, Emperor Shun Zhi hesitantly conferred him the title of an Emperor upon the request of some royal generals. However, it was later discovered by his enemies that Dorgon had prepared a dragon robe, and the Emperor’s crown to be buried with him when he was still alive. This was a very disrespectful act toward the Emperor. Out of anger, Emperor Shun Zhi stripped all the titles granted to Prince Dorgon and Prince Dodo, expelling all of their descendants out of the royal family as well. He also forced Prince Ajige to drink poisonous wine since he was born to the same mother as the other two princes.
Well, that was the end of Prince Dorgon and his two brothers. I will skip a few decades to the next significant event. At the age of 75, Empress Xiao Zhuang was near the end of her life. Before passing away, she left instructions for her grandson to not bury her with Qing Taizong. Her rational were that she had been disloyal to him by marrying someone else, and that she also did not want to open up his tomb since he had been gone for more than 40 years.
The book clearly mentioned that Emperor Shun Zhi was the actual son of Emperor Huang Taiji. It was also certain that Empress Xiao Zhuang did marry Prince Dorgon after her husband’s death; however, this was way after the birth of her son, so there should be no suspicions on who is the Emperor’s real father.
I know the improper burial of Empress Xiao Zhuang had caused others to think that she might have done something bad? Here is my opinion on this issue: I would assume that the person responsible for Empress Xiao Zhuang’s tomb was probably the current Emperor, Kang Xi. I think Emperor Kang Xi had a really good relationship with his grandma, as he was her favorite grandson, and Empress Xiao Zhuang was his role model. With this relationship, I highly doubt he would have made any arrangements that might have ruined her reputation? Knowing that this burial was improper, I don’t think he would have done so if it were not for her last wish?
Anyway, does anybody have any other information, ideas, facts, questions, or comments?
Xie Xie,
I was stunned to find out that the part about Prince Dorgon and Empress Xiao Zhuang was not well-documented in official Chinese History?! I have read a book in Vietnamese called “Hoang Hau Cung Phi Nha Thanh,” which translated to “Empresses and Concubines of the Qing Dynasty,” where it clearly states the relationship between Prince Dorgon and Empress Xiao Zhuang. Here is a brief summary of what I have read.
To ensure the alliance between Manchu and Mongol, eighth Prince Huang Taiji married a Mongolian Princess, who later became Empress Xiao Duan; she was also the aunt of Empress Xiao Zhuang. Prince Huang Taiji really loved his wife, so he often followed her back to Mongolia to visit her family. Being the closest younger brother of Prince Huang Taiji, Prince Dorgon always accompanied him everywhere he went. Upon arriving at Mongolia , both princes instantly fell in love with Empress Xiao Zhuang. Of course, Prince Dorgon was a better match for her since he was only one year older. Since Empress Xiao Zhuang had always looked up to Prince Huang Taiji as her uncle-in-law, she started to develop feelings for Prince Dorgon. A few years later, Prince Huang Taiji ascended to the throne as the Grand Khan. Shortly afterward, he announced that he would marry Empress Xiao Zhuang as his concubine without knowing the true love between her and his younger brother. Since the marriage was already publicly announced, everybody had to just follow the order.
Emperor Huang Taiji still adored Empress Xiao Zhuang for her beauty and intelligence after a few years of marriage. Despite being cherished by her husband, Empress Xiao Zhuang had always retained her love for Prince Dorgon. In 1638, she gave birth to the Emperor’s ninth son, Fu Lin, whom he loved very much.
In 1643, Emperor Huang Taiji suddenly passed away without appointing a successor, causing his eldest son, Hao Ge, and his younger brother, Dorgon, to fight over the throne. Of course, being the eldest son, Hao Ge had rights for the throne; however, Prince Dorgon had made a greater contribution to the empire than any of the other princes. Since both princes had almost the same amount of troops, a suggestion was made to appoint the other sons of Emperor Huang Taiji. Of course, Prince Dorgon supported Fu Lin, as he was the son of Empress Xiao Zhuang. After a few disputes, Fu Lin finally succeeded to the throne, and Prince Dorgon was appointed as regent since the new Emperor was only six years old.
To make sure Prince Hao Ge had less power, the new Emperor had to refer to Prince Dorgon as “Regent Imperial Uncle.” After waiting for a few years, Prince Dorgon was determined to marry his old lover. However, Empress Xiao Zhuang declined the invitation, believing that this would cause the Han people to think lowly of the royal family. In fury, Prince Dorgon threatened to usurp the throne if she did not change her mind. Knowing that her son’s life and the Qing Empire are in great danger, Empress Xiao Zhuang reluctantly agreed to marry Prince Dorgon, and he was given the title of “Regent Emperor Father.” This marriage was obviously for anything, but love! They did get married, and Empress Xiao Zhuang lived in Prince Dorgon’s mansion until he died suddenly in 1650. Emperor Shun Zhi prepared a grand palace upon his mother’s return.
After Prince Dorgon’s death, Emperor Shun Zhi hesitantly conferred him the title of an Emperor upon the request of some royal generals. However, it was later discovered by his enemies that Dorgon had prepared a dragon robe, and the Emperor’s crown to be buried with him when he was still alive. This was a very disrespectful act toward the Emperor. Out of anger, Emperor Shun Zhi stripped all the titles granted to Prince Dorgon and Prince Dodo, expelling all of their descendants out of the royal family as well. He also forced Prince Ajige to drink poisonous wine since he was born to the same mother as the other two princes.
Well, that was the end of Prince Dorgon and his two brothers. I will skip a few decades to the next significant event. At the age of 75, Empress Xiao Zhuang was near the end of her life. Before passing away, she left instructions for her grandson to not bury her with Qing Taizong. Her rational were that she had been disloyal to him by marrying someone else, and that she also did not want to open up his tomb since he had been gone for more than 40 years.
The book clearly mentioned that Emperor Shun Zhi was the actual son of Emperor Huang Taiji. It was also certain that Empress Xiao Zhuang did marry Prince Dorgon after her husband’s death; however, this was way after the birth of her son, so there should be no suspicions on who is the Emperor’s real father.
I know the improper burial of Empress Xiao Zhuang had caused others to think that she might have done something bad? Here is my opinion on this issue: I would assume that the person responsible for Empress Xiao Zhuang’s tomb was probably the current Emperor, Kang Xi. I think Emperor Kang Xi had a really good relationship with his grandma, as he was her favorite grandson, and Empress Xiao Zhuang was his role model. With this relationship, I highly doubt he would have made any arrangements that might have ruined her reputation? Knowing that this burial was improper, I don’t think he would have done so if it were not for her last wish?
Anyway, does anybody have any other information, ideas, facts, questions, or comments?
Xie Xie,
QUOTE(galvatron @ Aug 29 2006, 09:36 AM) [snapback]4843199[/snapback]
i think dorgon have no sons at all and shunzi was hong taiji son to respect to all ,i think this are just rumour and i watch this scence on hong kong tvb drama' kam see long kwan ' which starting by lam kar tung and charmaine sheh and i can say maybe this rumour are from wuxia serias .
Zunjing de Galvatron Xian Sheng,
The fact that Dorgon had no sons was clearly stated in history books since a son from his real brother, Dodo, had to be adopted to continue his lineage. It is also obvious that Emperor Shun Zhi was the actual son of Emperor Huang Taiji. I am also guilty of watching too many TV Series; however, I don’t think that these rumors were coming from Wuxia Series alone.
I believe there were two reasons why people suspected that Emperor Shun Zhi might have be the son of Prince Dorgon. Emperor Shun Zhi had to call Prince Dorgon by “Regent Emperor Father.” Empress Xiao Zhuang received an improper burial after her decease. Without those, we would not have any other speculations.
Xie Xie,
Legend has it that Dorgon married Empress Xiao Zhuang (Huangtaiji's concubine and mother of Fu Lin, the Shunzhi Emperor) during the regency of Shunzhi is probably one of the greatest myth of early Qing history. It has been novelized and dramatized until it became virtual fact. My 2 cents....
That Dorgon was the most powerful figure of in the early years of the Qing Dynasty was indeed true. When Huangtaiji died without leaving a will on succession, a second succession crisis emerged (the first of course was Huangtaiji's own enthronement as Nurhaci's successor). This time, the leading two candidates were Dorgon (Nurhaci's 14th son) and Haoge (eldest son of Huangtaiji). Dorgon was 3 years younger than his nephew Haoge. Daisan, head of the imperial clan, supported the 34 years old Haoge as the natural choice to be the next emperor, as his brothers after him were no more than 16. However Ajige and Dodo, both brothers of Dorgon of the same mother, pushed for their brother. In a statemale that ensued, it was said that Haoge, who pretended to have lacked quality, declined but thought that his modesty would encouraged the princes to nominate him, was brushed aside by Dorgon who interjected that Fu Lin, Huangtaiji's 9th son then 6 years of age, to be the Qing emperor with himself and Jirgalang as regents (shezhengwang).
Dorgon could not become emperor even if he would have desired mainly because most of the court - princes, councillors and generals - were loyal to Huangtaiji and wished to see a scion of their beloved emperor to be the heir. Dorgon's nomination of Fu Lin, which prevented inter-clan bloodshed was approved by the princes, can be seen as a design to procure power. The young emperor would not be able to rule and the real powers were actually vested on the co-regents. Hence to attempt to impose himself on an emperor so young would be not be a difficult task. Then it occurred that Daisan's second son Soto and grandson Adali (son of Daisan's third son Sahaliyen) secretly attempted to dethrone Fu Lin in favour of Dorgon. The plot was exposed and Daisan showed incredible loyalty to the dead emperor by sanctioning the execution of his son and grandson, and secured the throne for Fu Lin.
In less than a year or so, the Manchus marched into Beijing and established themselves as the new masters of China. Dorgon began to dominate over the adolescent Shunzhi and increased his power over the other princes and courtiers. Late in 1644, Jirgalang (Surhaci's 6th son, so a cousin of Dorgon) was demoted to assistant regent, and in 1647 was discharged of the regency altogether. His replacement was Dodo, who died 2 years later in 1649 (Ajige request for nomination as the next assistant regent was refused that year). In 1648, Jirgalang was further demoted in rank. Haoge, Dorgon's arch-rival, was imprisoned in 1648 for various offences (after just a month back in Beijing from a military campaign) and he died soon after.
Dorgon was also conferred various titles that manifested his hold on the throne. In 1644, he was Uncle Regent, in 1645 Imperial Uncle Regent, and later in 1648 Imperial Father Regent. Perhaps this contributed to the rumour that he married Shunzhi's mother Xiaozhuang (Borjigit clan). In fact, Dorgon took a wife of Haoge as his concubine. This could further compounded the issue. Did he actually marry Xiaozhuang? It seemed unlikely. If he did, he would become taishanghuang the Imperial Father Emperor. This I believe is a crucial clue. In becoming taishanghuang, Dorgon would have lost his power, but by remaining as regent he could still actually 'rule'¯. Dorgon enjoyed so much power that all state matters were discussed in his residence and the imperial seal was kept there. He also persecuted his rivals, for example Jirgalang and Haoge, as we have seen, and was virtually unopposed.
However, Dorgon died suddenly in the end of 1650 in a hunting trip. He was still regent over the now 12 years old Shunzhi. Ajige acted swiftly and aggressively upon his brotherāā‚¬ā„¢s death (they held a secret conversation before Dorgon's last breath it was said) to amass support to thrust himself into the regency, but was thwarted by a group of princes led by Jirgalang. Although Dorgon was posthumously bestowed the title 'emperor'¯, it was quickly rescinded within a month and his cronies were either punished or executed. Amongst others, Nikan (a son of Nurhaci's eldest son Cuyen), Bolo (a son of Nurhaci 7th son Abatai), and Mandahai (6th son of Daisan) who were once staunch supporters of Dorgon, turned against him and were not punished. (However, most of them were posthumously degraded when found that they had in possession Dorgon's former properties)
Ajige was forced to commit suicide and expunged from the imperial family. Dorgon was stripped of all his titles and had his remains exhumed and desecrated. (a few of his former henchmen (for eg. Ubai) disclosed he kept for himself a dragon robe and seal). Dodo was posthumously degraded as well. It seemed these 3 brothers must had held tremendously powers during the period 1644-50, probably Dorgon was practically running the empire by himself with the support of his brothers and had indeed many enemies. The titles conferred (probably by himself) showed the extent of his authority over the emperor and the court and this could be seen as progressive steps towards becoming the emperor himself (of which he was posthumously accused of). But in reviewing the founding fathers of the dynasty, Dorgon and Dodo had some of their titles restored during by Kangxi and Qianlong. Dorgon's contribution towards the building of the Qing dynasty was just too great to be ignored.
I have reason to believe that Dorgon's posthumous fall from grace was not entirely Shunzhi doing. It was probably orchestrated by Jirgalang who in my view had suffered the most (well sort of, Haoge's dead so he was relieved of all suffering?) in opposing Dorgon's concentration of powers and his dominance over the young emperor. There is also cause to believe that Shunzhi would have disliked the overbearing Dorgon a lot. But his bestowment of the posthumous title of emperor to Dorgon did not reflect this great extent of hatred. Shunzhi would have stripped Dorgon of all his titles immediately after the latter's death. Was Dorgon's cronies still holding on to power? We knew many of Dorgon's supporters turned against him and of the death of Ajige. Perhaps Shunzhi was led and directed in the few months after Dorgon death, first by conferring him titles and later stripped, by princes of influence that rose to fill the gap left by Dorgon, one being that of Jirgalang. Jirgalang was also determined to return power to Shunzhi. Nevertheless, Shunzhi was still 12 at that time, perhaps too young to make grave independent decisions? His mother, Xiaozhuang, whom many said was highly regarded, could also have influenced his son. Would Xiaozhuang have punished Dorgon if he was her husband? Was she forced into marrying Dorgon? Was she behind the conferring of the title of emperor to Dorgon posthumously? As mentioned, marrying the empress would not serve Dorgon any good and there was ample reasons to believe Dorgon would not relinquish power that soon. It seemed more likely Dorgon's disgrace was worked of his arch-enemies, who were lying low, biding their time to revive their fortunes. This can be seen in Jirgalang, who acted swiftly in apprehending Ajige, destroying Dorgon's clique and quickly restoring power back to the emperor.
That Dorgon was the most powerful figure of in the early years of the Qing Dynasty was indeed true. When Huangtaiji died without leaving a will on succession, a second succession crisis emerged (the first of course was Huangtaiji's own enthronement as Nurhaci's successor). This time, the leading two candidates were Dorgon (Nurhaci's 14th son) and Haoge (eldest son of Huangtaiji). Dorgon was 3 years younger than his nephew Haoge. Daisan, head of the imperial clan, supported the 34 years old Haoge as the natural choice to be the next emperor, as his brothers after him were no more than 16. However Ajige and Dodo, both brothers of Dorgon of the same mother, pushed for their brother. In a statemale that ensued, it was said that Haoge, who pretended to have lacked quality, declined but thought that his modesty would encouraged the princes to nominate him, was brushed aside by Dorgon who interjected that Fu Lin, Huangtaiji's 9th son then 6 years of age, to be the Qing emperor with himself and Jirgalang as regents (shezhengwang).
Dorgon could not become emperor even if he would have desired mainly because most of the court - princes, councillors and generals - were loyal to Huangtaiji and wished to see a scion of their beloved emperor to be the heir. Dorgon's nomination of Fu Lin, which prevented inter-clan bloodshed was approved by the princes, can be seen as a design to procure power. The young emperor would not be able to rule and the real powers were actually vested on the co-regents. Hence to attempt to impose himself on an emperor so young would be not be a difficult task. Then it occurred that Daisan's second son Soto and grandson Adali (son of Daisan's third son Sahaliyen) secretly attempted to dethrone Fu Lin in favour of Dorgon. The plot was exposed and Daisan showed incredible loyalty to the dead emperor by sanctioning the execution of his son and grandson, and secured the throne for Fu Lin.
In less than a year or so, the Manchus marched into Beijing and established themselves as the new masters of China. Dorgon began to dominate over the adolescent Shunzhi and increased his power over the other princes and courtiers. Late in 1644, Jirgalang (Surhaci's 6th son, so a cousin of Dorgon) was demoted to assistant regent, and in 1647 was discharged of the regency altogether. His replacement was Dodo, who died 2 years later in 1649 (Ajige request for nomination as the next assistant regent was refused that year). In 1648, Jirgalang was further demoted in rank. Haoge, Dorgon's arch-rival, was imprisoned in 1648 for various offences (after just a month back in Beijing from a military campaign) and he died soon after.
Dorgon was also conferred various titles that manifested his hold on the throne. In 1644, he was Uncle Regent, in 1645 Imperial Uncle Regent, and later in 1648 Imperial Father Regent. Perhaps this contributed to the rumour that he married Shunzhi's mother Xiaozhuang (Borjigit clan). In fact, Dorgon took a wife of Haoge as his concubine. This could further compounded the issue. Did he actually marry Xiaozhuang? It seemed unlikely. If he did, he would become taishanghuang the Imperial Father Emperor. This I believe is a crucial clue. In becoming taishanghuang, Dorgon would have lost his power, but by remaining as regent he could still actually 'rule'¯. Dorgon enjoyed so much power that all state matters were discussed in his residence and the imperial seal was kept there. He also persecuted his rivals, for example Jirgalang and Haoge, as we have seen, and was virtually unopposed.
However, Dorgon died suddenly in the end of 1650 in a hunting trip. He was still regent over the now 12 years old Shunzhi. Ajige acted swiftly and aggressively upon his brotherāā‚¬ā„¢s death (they held a secret conversation before Dorgon's last breath it was said) to amass support to thrust himself into the regency, but was thwarted by a group of princes led by Jirgalang. Although Dorgon was posthumously bestowed the title 'emperor'¯, it was quickly rescinded within a month and his cronies were either punished or executed. Amongst others, Nikan (a son of Nurhaci's eldest son Cuyen), Bolo (a son of Nurhaci 7th son Abatai), and Mandahai (6th son of Daisan) who were once staunch supporters of Dorgon, turned against him and were not punished. (However, most of them were posthumously degraded when found that they had in possession Dorgon's former properties)
Ajige was forced to commit suicide and expunged from the imperial family. Dorgon was stripped of all his titles and had his remains exhumed and desecrated. (a few of his former henchmen (for eg. Ubai) disclosed he kept for himself a dragon robe and seal). Dodo was posthumously degraded as well. It seemed these 3 brothers must had held tremendously powers during the period 1644-50, probably Dorgon was practically running the empire by himself with the support of his brothers and had indeed many enemies. The titles conferred (probably by himself) showed the extent of his authority over the emperor and the court and this could be seen as progressive steps towards becoming the emperor himself (of which he was posthumously accused of). But in reviewing the founding fathers of the dynasty, Dorgon and Dodo had some of their titles restored during by Kangxi and Qianlong. Dorgon's contribution towards the building of the Qing dynasty was just too great to be ignored.
I have reason to believe that Dorgon's posthumous fall from grace was not entirely Shunzhi doing. It was probably orchestrated by Jirgalang who in my view had suffered the most (well sort of, Haoge's dead so he was relieved of all suffering?) in opposing Dorgon's concentration of powers and his dominance over the young emperor. There is also cause to believe that Shunzhi would have disliked the overbearing Dorgon a lot. But his bestowment of the posthumous title of emperor to Dorgon did not reflect this great extent of hatred. Shunzhi would have stripped Dorgon of all his titles immediately after the latter's death. Was Dorgon's cronies still holding on to power? We knew many of Dorgon's supporters turned against him and of the death of Ajige. Perhaps Shunzhi was led and directed in the few months after Dorgon death, first by conferring him titles and later stripped, by princes of influence that rose to fill the gap left by Dorgon, one being that of Jirgalang. Jirgalang was also determined to return power to Shunzhi. Nevertheless, Shunzhi was still 12 at that time, perhaps too young to make grave independent decisions? His mother, Xiaozhuang, whom many said was highly regarded, could also have influenced his son. Would Xiaozhuang have punished Dorgon if he was her husband? Was she forced into marrying Dorgon? Was she behind the conferring of the title of emperor to Dorgon posthumously? As mentioned, marrying the empress would not serve Dorgon any good and there was ample reasons to believe Dorgon would not relinquish power that soon. It seemed more likely Dorgon's disgrace was worked of his arch-enemies, who were lying low, biding their time to revive their fortunes. This can be seen in Jirgalang, who acted swiftly in apprehending Ajige, destroying Dorgon's clique and quickly restoring power back to the emperor.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.