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Ghost_of_Han
Throughout reading the Three kingdoms I have come upon, many titles that are awarded to heros, and can't really place what value or importance they have. Have only be able to decipher this much:

Millitary offices
1. Regent Marshal
2. General of the Flying Chariots
2. General of the Flying Cavalry


Civilian office (Empiral)
1. Imperial Guardian
2.

Civilian office (Provincial)
1. Imperial Protector
2.




Obviously the emperor comes first. But I can't put me finger on Prime minster (I know sad), and certain titles like: General who Tames to Deep (the original general who defeated the Namans)and so on. If I could have some sort for ranking I would greatly appreciate it
thirdgumi
Han dynasty military ranking: here if you could read Chinese tongue.gif

Qing rankings: here (Chinese)

Qin rankings: here (Chinese)

West Han rankings: here (Chinese)

Note, some of the titles were just honor titles, didn't give real power.

Since the site above is down, so I'm posting the infos right here:

Han military ranks:
QUOTE
汉朝将军位
  2003-5-17



一品 大将军    (以上为三公级将军)
二品 骠骑将军、车骑将军、卫将军(以上为三公级将军)
抚军大将军、中军大将军、上军大将军、镇军大将军、国大将军、
南中大将军(以上为二品大将军)
征东将军、征南将军、征西将军、征北将军(四征资深者皆为大
将军。以上为四征将军)
   镇东将军、镇南将军、镇西将军、镇北将军(以上为四镇将军)

三品 中领军(资深者为领军将军。以上为禁卫军)
   安东将军、安南将军、安西将军、安北将军(以上为四安将军)
   平东将军、平南将军、平西将军、平北将军(以上为四平将军)
   征蜀将军、征虏将军、镇军将军、镇护将军、安众将军、安夷
将军、安远将军、平寇将军、平虏将军、平狄将军、平难将军、
辅国将军、虎牙将军、轻车将军、冠军将军、度辽将军、横海
将军(以上为三品杂号将军)

四品 中护军、武卫将军(中护军资深者为护军将军。以上为禁卫军)    
屯骑校尉、越骑校尉、步兵校尉、长水校尉、射声校尉(以上
野战军五校尉)
   中坚将军、骁骑游击将军、左军将军(以上为四品常设将军)
   建威将军、建武将军、振威将军、振武将军、奋威将军、
   奋武将军、扬威将军、扬武将军、广威将军、广武将军、
宁朔将军、
左积射将军、右积射将军、强弩将军(以上为四品杂号将军)
   东中郎将、南中郎将、西中郎将、北中郎将(以上为四中郎将)
   振威中郎将、建义中郎将、奉义中郎将、平虏中郎将、
   典军中郎将、抚军中郎将、武卫中郎将、司金中郎将、
司律中郎将、
护匈奴中郎将、率善中郎将(以上为四品杂号中郎将)
   戊己校尉、平虏校尉、讨寇校尉、建忠校尉、护羌校尉、
护东羌 校尉、护乌丸校尉、护鲜卑校尉、西域校尉、西
戎校尉、东夷校尉(以上为派遣军)、监军(以上为监
军或护军)

五品  偏将军、裨将军(以上为五品常设将军)
    鹰扬将军、折冲将军、虎烈将军、宣威将军、威远将军、
宁远将军、
伏波将军、虎威将军、凌江将军、荡寇将军、昭武将军、昭烈将军、
昭德将军、讨逆将军、破虏将军、讨寇将军、宣德将军、威虏将军、
捕虏将军、殄吴将军、殄夷将军、扬烈将军、建忠将军、立义将军、
怀集将军、横野将军、楼船将军、复土将军、忠义将军、建节将军、
   翼卫将军、讨夷将军、怀远将军、绥边将军(以上为五品杂号将军)  
安夷护军、抚夷护军(以上为监军或护军)

六品 和戎护军、殄虏护军
    (以上为杂号护军)
3 Kingdoms period military ranks
QUOTE
三国武将官职
  2003-5-13



名称 说明
大将军 战国置,汉因之,金印紫绶,地位因人而异,与三公相上下。汉武帝时起领录尚书事, 外主征战,内秉国政,权势过于丞相。东汉多以贵戚任之,位在三公之上。
司马 《周记·夏官》记大司马之属有军司马、舆司马、行司马。春秋晋作三军,每军别置 司马。汉宫门及将军、校尉属官有司马。边郡则设千人司马,专掌军事。曹魏公府 及大将军府设司马,秩千石,主军事。
别部司马 汉制,大将军属官有军司马,秩比千石。其中别领营属者称为别部司 马,共所率兵士数目各随时宜,不固定。   从事中郎   汉魏时,三公及将军府均设从事中郎,职参谋议,为在长史、司马下。
右部督 全称为帐下右部督。三国时将军开府者,其属官有帐下督一人,第七品。陆逊曾为孙权帐下右部督。
记室 东汉置,诸王、三公及大将军都设记室令史,掌章表书记文檄。
兵曹掾 东汉太尉属吏,主兵事,秩比三百石。魏沿之,于丞相府和大将军府各置兵曹掾 一人,三百石,第七品。
骠骑将军 汉武帝始置,以霍去病为之,秩位同大将军,金印紫绶,位同三公,三国均置。
门下督 将帅府属官。骠骑将军、车骑将军、卫将军等府均置门下督一人,第七品。下属 有门下录事、门吏、门下书吏各一人。
大都督 曹魏置,第一品,不常置,属加官。加此官者,颁与代表天子威权的黄钺以节制持节将 军等高级将领。吴同魏制。蜀置中都护,统内外军事。
都护 汉宣帝时,置两域都护,为加官。东汉光武帝时设都护将军。三国魏沿置。蜀有中都护、 行都护之号,职权如大都督,总领内外诸军事。吴设左右都护,尽护诸军。
镇军大将军 位在大将军之下,第二品,不常置。两汉均设有大将军之职,位比三公。大将军之 上加各种名号者,东汉三国逐渐增多,三国均设此官。
车骑将军 汉制,仅次于大将军、骠骑将军,金印紫绶,地位相当于上卿,或比三公。典京师兵 卫,掌宫卫。第二品。
卫将军 汉文帝始置,位亚三司,第二品。在将军中次于大将军、骠骑将军、车骑将军。
辅国大将军 后汉时期设立的高级将军位,位在“四镇”大将军之上。
镇军大将军 位在大将军之下,第二品,不常置。两汉均设有大将军之职,位比三公。大将军之 上加各种名号者,东汉三国逐渐增多,三国均设此官。
镇军将军 秩位次于镇军大将军,第三品。
征东将军 魏因汉置,秩二千石,第二品。资深者为大将军。
征北将军 魏因汉置,秩二千石,第二品。魏文帝时位次三公,吴蜀亦置。
征南将军 魏因汉置,秩二千石,第二品。资深者为大将军。
征西将军 东汉置,秩二千石,第二品。资深者为大将军。
镇东将军 第二品,位次四征将军,领兵如征东将军。资深者为大将军。
镇北将军 第二品,位次四征将军,领兵如征北将军。资深者为大将军。
镇南将军 第二品,位次四征将军,领兵如征南将军。资深者为大将军。
镇西将军 第二品,位次四征将军,领兵如征西将军。资深者为大将军。
左将军 汉有左将军,不常置,位如上卿,金印紫绶,掌京师兵卫及戍守边隘,讨伐四夷。平时 加诸吏,给事中等号,则得以宿卫皇帝,参与中朝朝议,决定国家大事,若领尚书事就 负责实际政务。魏时为第三品。
右将军 汉有此职,金印紫绶,地位如上卿,但不常置。加诸吏、给事中等号则得以宿卫皇帝、 参与中朝议、决定军国大事,再领尚书事则负责实际政务。魏时为第三品,有官属。
前将军 三国时常设的高级将军位。负责京师兵卫和边防屯警。位次于九卿,而高于其他临时设 置的杂号将军。三国时品级下降,为第三品。开府治事,属官有长史、司马、从事中郎等。
横江将军 三国时仅吴置。以鲁肃任之,镇守沿江辖地,用以横扫来犯之敌,故名。
护军将军 秦置护军都尉,汉因之,陈平曾任此职,尽护诸将。汉武帝时属大司马。建安12年改 护军为中护军。魏亦置护军,主武官选,隶领军。资重者为护军将军,资轻者为中护军。
安南将军 四安将军之一,魏时为第三品,掌征伐。
安东将军 四安将军之一,掌武事,第三品,魏吴有置,蜀无。
平南将军 魏置此官,第三品,下有主簿、功曹等属吏。吴蜀亦置。
平西将军 魏时为第三品,下有主簿、功曹等属吏。吴蜀亦置
征虏将军 魏沿汉制,第三品。吴蜀亦置。
后将军 东汉杂号将军甚多,有以前、后、左、右名之者。魏时为第三品。
武卫将军 魏置,第四品。曹操置武卫中郎将。曹丕改为武卫将军,许褚任之,都督中军宿卫禁 兵。吴亦置,典宿卫。
奋武将军 汉末,曹操、吕布曾任是官。三国时魏吴有置,蜀未见。
奋威将军 西汉始置。三国均置,第四品。
建威将军 曹魏置,第四品。吴蜀亦置。
振威将军 东汉杂号将军之一,魏沿置,第四品。
军祭酒 即军师祭酒,陈寿撰《三国志》避晋景帝司马师讳,改为军祭酒。魏时为第五品。
昭德将军 魏置,第五品。
昭武将军 魏置,为第五品
建武将军 曹魏置,第五品。
扬武将军 东汉年间有此职,三国均置。
平戎将军 三国吴置,步骘任是职。
虎威将军 三国时杂号将军之一。魏吴有置。
辅国将军 汉献帝时伏完任此官。三国时均置此号。
安远将军 三国时杂号将军之一。
折冲将军 魏所设杂号将军之一,第五品。吴亦置,蜀无。
破虏将军 东汉杂号将军之一。魏时为第五品。李典、孙坚曾任。
讨逆将军 东汉杂号将军之一。曹魏沿置,第五品。
讨虏将军 东汉杂号将军之一。蜀置此官,吴因孙坚曾任此职,后不复置。
讨寇将军 魏置杂号将军之一,第五品。蜀亦置。
荡寇将军 东汉末始有此名。三国均置,秩为第五品。
牙门将军 魏文帝黄初年间始置,第五品,无定员。蜀吴亦置。
偏将军 将军中地位较低者,多由校尉或裨将升迁,无定员,第五品。三国均置。
平东将军 汉置,魏时为第六品。吕布曾任是官。
平北将军 建安十年始置,第六品,下有主簿、功曹等属吏。吴蜀亦置。
奋威校尉 校尉为次于将军之武职。有各种名号,奋威校尉仅三国吴置。
奋武校尉 位在将军下。三国时校尉名号甚多,职责亦不同。奋武校尉仅吴置,鲁肃任之。
折冲校尉 汉末,曹操任奋武将军,任夏侯惇为折冲校尉,后不置,蜀无。
越骑校尉 汉武帝始置,掌越骑。东汉沿置,设越骑校尉一人,比二千石,掌宿卫兵。三国均 置。
督军校尉 三国吴置,校尉在将军和中郎将之下。
赞军校尉 位在将军下。三国时校尉名号甚多,职责亦不同。赞军校尉为吴置,鲁肃任之,助周 瑜参赞军务,故以赞军名之。
昭信校尉 三国时蜀置,为使臣奉命出使入冠其名号。
儒林校尉 校尉为次于将军的武官,其名号甚多。由于其职务掌的不同,名号亦异。儒林校尉为 蜀所特置。周裙任是职。
军议校尉 参议军事的官位。
先登校尉 三国时统兵校尉名目甚多,先登校尉唯吴置。
汉八校尉 步兵校尉掌上林苑门屯兵。越骑校尉掌越骑。长水校尉掌长水宣曲胡骑。又有胡骑校尉, 掌池阳胡骑,不常置。射声校尉掌待诏射声士。虎贲校尉掌轻车。中垒校尉,屯骑校尉。
西园八校尉 典军、上军、中军、下军、左军、右军、助军左、右校尉


Unfortunely I only have these saved.
General_Zhaoyun
Great info, thirdgumi, I'm sometimes quite confuse by the names of those rank.. I think I'll learn more about them.
Yun
I once drew a diagram of the structure of the imperial government, but only in pencil. And it's really complex because institutions and posts were evolving and changing over time. A whole dictionary of official posts in ancient China was written by Charles Hucker (I bought it when I was in Berkeley).

Basically, this is the Han system as it was just before the Three Kingdoms:

The Three Grand Ministers (Largely honorary titles):
Grand Tutor (Taifu)
Grand Guardian (Taibao)
Grand Mentor (Taishi)

The Three Chief Ministers (Formerly powerful, but now becoming honorary):
Prime Minister (Situ/Chengxiang) - under whom are various ministers
Grand Marshal (Da Sima/Taiwei) - under whom are various generals
Supreme Censor (Sikong/ Yushi Dafu) - under whom are various censors

The State Secretariat (Became increasingly powerful due to its proximity to the emperor):
Chief State Secretary (Shangshu Ling)
Executive State Secretaries (Shangshu Puye)
Six Departments, each with its own State Secretary (Shangshu) and Undersecretaries (Shangshu Lang)

The Board of Advisors (variable amount of influence):
Board of Counselors (Shizhong)
Board of Consultants (Sanqi Shilang/Sanqi Changshi)

During the Wei dynasty (starting in the reign of Cao Pi), a new institution became even more powerful than the State Secretariat, because the State Secretaries had evolved from being the emperor's private secretaries, into an administrative body for general state affairs. Their original role was taken over by the Palace Secretariat:
Chief Palace Secretary (Zhongshu Ling) - under whom are various Palace Secretaries (Zhongshu Shilang)

At the provincial level, there are:
Provincial Governors (Cishi/Mu) - administrate a province (zhou)
Prefects (Taishou) - a prefecture (jun)
Magistrates (Ling) - a county (xian)

I'll cover military ranks in a later post.
thirdgumi
Well, the ranking system changed a lot over time. There was a constant attempt of the emperors to limit the power of Premiers by creating some kind of Inner Court (Nei Chao) in contrast of Outer Court (Wai Chao). But over time Nei Chao would become too powerful and the emperor would create another Inner Court to make the previous one Outer Court. That was one off the reason why Zhu Yuan Zhang banned the system of Premiers. So the ranking system changed a lot, I will write it later.
Ghost_of_Han
QUOTE
The Three Grand Ministers (Largely honorary titles):
Grand Tutor (Taifu)
Grand Guardian (Taibao)
Grand Mentor (Taishi)

The Three Chief Ministers (Formerly powerful, but now becoming honorary):
Prime Minister (Situ/Chengxiang) - under whom are various ministers
Grand Marshal (Da Sima/Taiwei) - under whom are various generals
Supreme Censor (Sikong/ Yushi Dafu) - under whom are various censors

The State Secretariat (Became increasingly powerful due to its proximity to the emperor):
Chief State Secretary (Shangshu Ling)
Executive State Secretaries (Shangshu Puye)
Six Departments, each with its own State Secretary (Shangshu) and Undersecretaries (Shangshu Lang)

The Board of Advisors (variable amount of influence):
Board of Counselors (Shizhong)
Board of Consultants (Sanqi Shilang/Sanqi Changshi)


Minus the Prime Minster, I see none of the titles they use in the book. What is the difference from the titles I see now, and the titles I see in the book?
Yun
Probably little more than a difference in translation, because the translations for official ranks and titles in most English versions of RTK are poorly done and needlessly exotic-sounding. You can't really blame the translators, because they have little or no training in Chinese political history.

BTW, the translations that I gave are mostly my own, and they reflect the function of that rank rather than following the words literally. I found even Hucker's translations to often be unsatisfactory, because he stuck too much to the literal meaning.
Ghost_of_Han
This is what I was able to come up with. I might be adding more later.


Emperor comes first.
Prime Minister is a single position used by Former Han,Shu and Wu.Normally power is divided among the Three Excellencies,Grand Commandant,Minister over the Masses and Minister of Works.The Prime Minister is a title than gives one person the power instead of three.
Grand Tutor(Jia Xu) is a position ususally given to an elder statesman and is a counsellor to the Emperor.
General in Chief is generally given to the father of the Empress and is on par with the Three Excellencies.More a political position than a military one.The case is the same for General of Chariots of Cavalry,it's for the Empress' family.

A Marquis is a civil rank and indicates someone who is given what amounts to a fief.The person receives income from the fief taxes.Fiefs were generally the equivalent of a county(described later)
An Imperial Inspector is a supervisory controller of a province.Used to keep an eye on other officials and empowered to conduct investigatiosn and in the case of rebellion to take command of the provice to fight off the rebels.
Imperial Governor is the same thing save that instead of supervisory control,the Governor has direct control at all times.
Grand Administrator is the person who is in charge of running a commandery.Example Sun Jian was the GA of Changsha.
Commandant is a military officer who presides over military affairs in a commandery.
Chief Commandant is given to Commandants who preside over areas that are barbarian frontier territory or who command military units within a kingdom.
A kingdom under the Han is a fief that is generally remote.They were commandery units that were called kingdoms or states.Chancellors ran them or in the case of imperial relatives,Kings.
Below the commandery level there are counties run by Magistrates like Liu Bei in PingYuan.He would have the formal ranks of Chief or Prefect.

There were nine ministers:
the Minister of the Imperial Household , responsible for the immediate security of the Emperor and for his attendants at the court;
the Minister of the Guard responsible for the security of the imperial palaces;
the Minister Coachman responsible for the horses and carriages of the Emperor and for the mounts of the army;
the Minister of Justice,responsible for court cases at high level and appeals from lower local jurisdictions;
the Minister Herald responsible for relations with non-Chinese states;
the Minister of the Imperial Clan Imperial ,responsible for the registration and for the conduct of members of the Liu house;
the Minister of Agricultureresponsible for the general finances of the empire and the public grain supply;
the Minister of the Privy Treasuryresponsible for the household of the Emperor including, formally speaking, the imperial harem and the offices of the Imperial Secretariat and the Imperial Censorate, on which, however, see below.

Empress Dowager in the formal mother of the Emperor and with the senior male of her clan,they can run the empire during an infant's regency or even select the successor if no successor has been named.

Military ranks in many cases were just general ranks with an addition at the end generally given according to the person's fame.A general who quelled the Qiang might be "General who conquers the Qiang" or something.The formal hierarchy of these esoteric ranks is impossible to know.Generally the person's overall rank would be established by what they were assigned to do.
Yun
That's essentially correct, with the following difference in translation from mine:

Minister over the Masses = Prime Minister (Situ 司徒)
Minister of Works = Supreme Censor (Sikong 司空)

Grand Tutor (Jia Xu) = Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅), and is actually one of the Three Excellencies (Three Grand Ministers)

Commandery = Prefecture (Jun 郡)
Grand Adminstrator = Prefect (Taishou 太守)

The Governors (cishi 刺史) were originally Inspectors in the Han dynasty, roving from province to province to check on the prefects. Gradually their posts became permanent and fixed in one place, so that by the Yellow Turban rebellion they were essentially Governors.

QUOTE
Military ranks in many cases were just general ranks with an addition at the end generally given according to the person's fame.A general who quelled the Qiang might be "General who conquers the Qiang" or something.The formal hierarchy of these esoteric ranks is impossible to know.Generally the person's overall rank would be established by what they were assigned to do.


The most important military ranks in the Three Kingdoms and Age of Fragmentation, besides more honorific ones like Grand General (or General in Chief, 大将军), General of Chariots (车骑将军) and General of Cavalry (骠骑将军), included the Four Conquering 四征, Four Garrisoning 四镇, Four Subduing 四安, and Four Pacifying 四平 generals:

The General Conquering the East/West/South/North (征东将军、征西将军、征南将军、征北将军) - usually conferred upon a general leading an offensive campaign in that region of the empire.

The General Garrisoning the East/West/South/North (镇东将军 and so on) - usually conferred on a general guarding an important city in that part of the empire.

The Generals Subduing/Pacifying the East/West/South/North (安东将军/平东将军 and so on) - less specific, but usually for offensive campaigns.

Another important post in the capital was the General of the Imperial Guards (中军将军/领军将军), under whom would be the elite Imperial Guards and Palace Guards.

Ghost of Han is correct to say that many of the other titles for generals were less systematic and specific to the situation. The General who Tames the Waves (伏波将军) mentioned by Ghost of Han in his first post, Ma Yuan 马援 of the Eastern Han, received this title for subduing a rebellion by the Vietnamese (led by the famous Trung sisters), who were traditionally associated with the sea.
General_Zhaoyun
Thanks for Yun's translation of some chinese rankings into English.
I'm rather confused by the so-many chinese ranks , which I find it easier to understand by reading some of the english translation.
Ghost_of_Han
Heres some more I got on lower postions, basically a contiuation of my first statment.

QUOTE
Masters of Writing.
This was one of the most important positions at the court.This is in the Imperial Secretariat which is formally under the Minister of the Privy Treasury though the Masters were only loosely attached.They were responsible for the drafting of all edicts, received instructions from the highest levels and also functioned at investigators in high level cases.Memorials to the throne also would go through the Masters of Writing and I know of occassions where they have dared even to question the motives and authority of the three Execllencies on matters.

At the provincial level we have the Inspectors already discussed who were assisted by locally recruited Attendant Clerks.They were responsible for matters such as local appointments and nominations to the civil service.Also there was an Aide-de-camp and a Secretary.

The commandery level is headed as already noted by a Grand Administrator who has two main officers,the Military Commandant and the Civil Assistant.Unlike the Inspector's office,which used locally recruited talent,the commandery officers were appointed by the capital.

Below the commissioned commandery ranks there was a Secretary(Master of Records) and the Officer of Merit.The latter,as the name suggests was responsible for finding local talent and nominating them for civil service.The subordinate unit of the commandery was the county which was supervised by a number of officers called Investigators.

Counties were headed by a Magistrate who held the title of Prefect.County units could also be made the award of Marquises which was the highest noble rank granted to a commoner,or as a domain for Imperial Princesses.
Yun
Totally different system of translation from mine, I'm afraid. The Masters of Writing (Shangshu 尚书) are what I translate as State Secretaries.
Ghost_of_Han
Well you speak chinese, I don't. I have full confidence you're right. I will bow out for now and work at it some more.
Yun
GoH, you may want to consider getting this book: Charles Hucker's "Dictionary of Official Titles in Imperial China". I bought it in Berkeley last year, and find it very useful even though many of the translations differ from the ones I prefer. The best thing is that he describes the government structure of every dynasty and explains the evolution of the function for each official post. It's an expensive book, but will be very very helpful to you in taking Asian Studies.

For now, remember that a county Magistrate (ling) is definitely not the same as a Prefect. The Prefect (Taishou) is actually his immediate superior, in charge of the Prefecture (Jun). In your version, the Prefect is called a Grand Administrator, and the Prefecture is called a Commandery. Some scholars like to use those terms, but I find them useless because there are no such ranks in any non-Chinese culture. The whole purpose of translation is to find equivalent terms in another language to make the original term understandable.

Note: One unfortunate weakness of Hucker's book is that he used Wade-Giles romanisations rather than Hanyu Pinyin. They should release a Pinyin edition sometime. In the meantime, you'll have to slowly learn how to convert Hanyu Pinyin into Wade-Giles on your own. (There's a table for that at the end of the book itself).
Ghost_of_Han
QUOTE
One unfortunate weakness of Hucker's book is that he used Wade-Giles romanisations rather than Hanyu Pinyin. They should release a Pinyin edition sometime. In the meantime, you'll have to slowly learn how to convert Hanyu Pinyin into Wade-Giles on your own. (There's a table for that at the end of the book itself).


I HATE WADE_GILES PINYIN :angry: :angry: :angry:

And they better stay with Hanyu Pinyin.
Yun
Heehee... actually, "Wade-Giles Pinyin" is a misnomer. "Pinyin" is only used to refer to Hanyu Pinyin. The full-term for Wade-Giles is "Wade-Giles Romanisation".
General_Zhaoyun
For a complete of bureaucratic ranks of all chinese dynasty, refer to
the chinese site
http://fany419.blogms.com/blog/CommList.as...Code=1000246303
Da Shuai
QUOTE(thirdgumi @ Jun 7 2004, 03:03 PM) [snapback]1282598[/snapback]
Han dynasty military ranking: here if you could read Chinese tongue.gif

Qing rankings: here (Chinese)

Qin rankings: here (Chinese)

West Han rankings: here (Chinese)

Note, some of the titles were just honor titles, didn't give real power.

Since the site above is down, so I'm posting the infos right here:

Han military ranks:



3 Kingdoms period military ranks


Unfortunely I only have these saved.




Hi Thirdgumi,

Thank you for the detailed military rank, but any chance to get it translated in English?

Thank you

Regards

Da Shuai
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