Why is china not interested in getting back the outer manchuria territory lost since the Treaty of Nerchinsk ?

China got back hong kong and macao but not the north east ?

Can somebody explain why ?

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-8-17/31330.html

If you're going to start a thread, please find a better source to start it with.

In any case, to my knowledge those areas are fully assimilated into Russia, and they were legally handed over to the Russian nation by the Qing government, the claims of which were still recognized by the CCP and KMT today.

This is why the PRC didn't invade HK or Macao, because they were still under a lease with Portugual and the UK, this is why Tibet was invaded, because the Qing and KMT never recognized their independence and still legally own it, this i why a lot of the Japanese owned territory in the Northeast was returned to the ROC after WWII, it's all about legal claim.

This isn't to say the CCP's legal claims are all based on previous regimes though, the independence of Mongolia, officially recognized by the PRC was all part of a treaty with the USSR, the KMT never recognized Mongolian independence.

First it was the Treaty of Aigun and the convention of Beijing that gave outer Manchuria to the Russians.

There were little incentives for U.K in keeping Hong Kong or Portugal for keeping Macau. Neither countries after WWII made direct investments into the colony/territory nor sought revenue from them. In fact Portugal had given up sovereignty over Macau in 1974, but the unstable political climate in China meant that it didn't wan't to assume control at that point. Outer Manchuria on the other hand is a different scenario because Russia actually wants it. Imagine if during the Qing dynasty instead of destroying the Dzungar Khanate and annexing Xinjiang alright they conquered half of it and then forced the Dzungar to sign a humulating treaty, what would you think if they insist on taking it back today?

I doubt your claim as to why china would 'legally' hand it over to russia seeing that it was the manchu's homeland and part of the ming dynasty too.

There were several unequal treaties that forced china to secede their territories. One of them was due to the opium war.

The european countries were colonising all over the world. Does that mean that india, most of south east asia was also 'legally' handed over to the europeans ?

Most if not all the territories the europeans colonised were given back since then, so why is outer manchuria not given back ? This still remains a mystery.

Of course there is a lot of unequal treaties. China did a lot of unequal treaties too. Life sucks, but that's how it is. Besides, "claiming outer Mongolia" would really put a dent into "China's peaceful rise" concept. Just Taiwan is already bad enough.

Because China herself was nothing but an imperialistic power to outer Manchuria. China also occupied in imperialistic manner Tibet, East Turkestan, and southern Mongolia. So why are these territories not given back to their indigenous peoples?

Outer Manchuria was well beyond the area where the Jurchen tribes that constuted the Manchu core. Basically it was the Treaty of Treaty of Nerchinsk that gave China control over the area (and for the indigenous people living there, one could argue that it could be a unequal treaty for them).

How about giving back territories to indigenous natives, the whole of Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and the United States? This logic can't work in the real world. There must be some sort of cut off point, otherwise Ethopia can lay came to the entire world!

Mongolia sides with PRC, don't recognise ROC.
Recent years in order to improve relationship Taiwan government is amended its Constitution, recognising Mongolia Independance and excluded territory of Mongolia from its political map.
After that relationship between Mongolia and Taiwan dramatically increased.
Actually what ROC claims about Mongolia was not a concern at all.


- Mongolia was independant country with the boundaries that existed before 1947, when the ROC enacted its Constitution. Since the Republic of Mongolia was already established at the time and had won international recognition, Outer Mongolia could not be counted as part of the ROC.


If someone said there was a country; non-U.N. member named the ROC whose territorial claim covers United Nations members like the PRC, the Republic of Mongolia, the Republic of Tajikistan and the Republic of Kyrgystan, that person would be an international laughing stock.

Are you sure that the manchus are not the natives in outer manchuria ? Then who are the natives of outer manchuria ? Who were the majority of the people living there before the russians came ?

In that article I post, it is said that the russians either killed or chased away the few manchus or chinese living there at that time.

I agree that east turkestan/xinjiang should be given back as they are too culturally different and ethnically different from the north east asians. These people are turkic and are caucasians and not north mongoloid like most of china's citizens.

Not too sure about tibet because they are culturally, linguistically and ethnically similar to the north east asians. The tibetans and sino people both originated from the same tribe in the kunlun mountains.

Say if PRC were to relinquish all their territorial claims to all non China-proper territories. Would that even work? Tibet could reform a government again no doubt. Inner Mongolia would be returned to Mongolia. Turkestan could form up a government with some work. But what about Manchuria? I don't think they have much of a cultural identity left anymore. Are there even any manchurian-speaking people left?

The Evenks and the Nanai are two ethnic groups that were indigenous to the region.

The homeland of the Jianzhou Jurchens (the group that Nurgaci came from) was along the southern part of the Songhua river. From here they were able to conquer the other Jurchen tribes that lived north and northwest of the Liaodong peninsula.

The manchurians have been assimilated/intermarried into the han chinese group just like the southern chinese /bai yue people.

The inhabitants of inner mongolia are mostly han chinese at present - nearly 90%. Anyway, mongolia already has their own sparsely populated country.

There was no country back then in XinJiang, they were settlers attracted through the silk roads and happens to be within China borders. That doesn't mean China should give up lands that's majority occupied by different ethnics.




Inner Mongolia doesn't belongs to Outer Mongolia even though its English name may seem to intrepet that. Inner Mongolia has long been a territory that dwell with differnt ethinics such as the Manchu, Mongol, Han etc. It don't solely belong to Mongolia.

Also, regarding Outer Mongolia borders, they were drawn by the Russians. I seriously doubt that Mongolia was ever that big at the time and from the time they originated.

If what I read is true, the western part of xinjiang was actually a part of the turkestan empire in the past.

Why would china want this remote part of the world where the people are completely different from the rest of the country while relinguishing outer manchuria where the people are much closer to the northeast chinese than the turkic people.

Is it because xinjiang has more natural resources than outer manchuria ? I would think outer manchuria is more valuable. Maybe someone can enlighten me.

Perhaps because it already HAS it.

Remember that irredentism, once invoked, would be applicable to all; I'm sure a lot of countries have beef with China over territories they "lost" to her in the past. Gando, for instance.

That is true that Southern Mongolia does not belong to present Mongolia, but they are destined to be Independant Mongol State.

The term "Inner Mongolia" (Nei Menggu) or "Outer Mongolia" ( Wai Menggu) is Chinese terminology orininated from Sinocentric political ambition. And literally translated into Enlgish

Originally names were Mongolian geographical term for Mongolians live north of Gobi desert and South of Gobi desert. These words in Mongolian language are Ar Mongol ( Northern Mongolia), Uvur Mongol ( Southern Mongolia which can be found in any historical documents as it is.

In XV-XVI century, due to internal struggle Great Mongolia separated into three parts:

1). Southern Mongolia, which consisted of today's Inner Mongolian Autonomous Region and surrounding area, south of Gobi desert. These area/terrritories were never dwelled by Han or Manchus. Hans were always south of Great Wall, Manchus were always in North East.

After Huang Taiji (Manchu Emperor) was defeated by Yuan Chonghuan, he initiated a so call "Unite with Mongolians against Ming dynasty" policy. Later, with the Mongolian help, Huang Taiji took the route through Chakhar and invaded Beijing. That was the road Chinggis Khan used in defeating Chinese troops in Beijing. Now this road is protected by the best equipped Chinese motorized 38th and 27th armored divisions.

2). Northern Mongolia, which consisted of Kingdoms Khalkha Mongol Clans: Tsetsen Khan, Tushetu Khan, and Zasagtu Khan, Sain Noyon Khan, all located in North side of Gobi Desert.

3). Kingdom of Jungharia ( Zuungar) - Almost anhilated by Qing forces. Located in Far North Western Xingjiang and southern tip Kazakhstan. 4 Clans of Oirats were called the "outside disaster" by Chinese Ming dynasty(1368---1644). Essen khan led 20,000 horse army severely defeated Ming's larger army on the north of Great Wall and took Emporer in captive. In the middle of 18th century Galdan (Boshogtu Khan) of Jungharia fought against Kang-Xi's (Manchu Emperor) army.]

Since then, Mongolians and Han Chinese were forced to be ruled by Manchu(1644-1911). When Manchu ruler was overthrown in 1911, All Nations under Manchu Qing Gurung were FREE to set up their own STATE.
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Mongolian Borders never drawn by Russians. Representatives of Peope's Republic of Mongolia and PRC both set up border demarkation comittee and and borders were drawing according to their mutual agreement.

Last time Chinese Prseident ZHiang ZimIn signed and reinforced the previous agreement.

So you are saying that inner mongolia is separated from outer mongolia by the gobi desert ?

Does that mean the gobi desert is a natural border for both countries ??? But I thought the whole gobi desert is inside inner mongolia .

Inner mongolia inhabitants at present comprises mainly of han chinese around 80 %.

I did not mentioned a word "border" at all. There was no border for NOMADS in old time.
There were only geographical barrier against NOMADS movement.

Chinese Great Wall was actually clear border mark between settled people and nomad people.

for your knowledge:- GOBI DESERT is not thin line to mark a border. GOBI desert was within Mongolian territory. That is why its name is GOBI mongolian word which means DESERT.

What i wrote is that term:- Outer/Inner Mongolia is politically incorrect terminology to use for everyone except Han-chauvinists. Now i see this thread "Reclaiming Outer manchuria"...I wonder who first created this word OUTER MANCHURIA? Another nonsense from Chinese expansionists?




You are right. Unfortunately Southern Mongolia is heavily overpopulated by Han chinese. It is feared that Tibet will be same like Southern Mongolia soon.
Although chinese government regularly shows how the Southern Mongolians are living happy with the Chinese through the TV stations of Inner Mongolia, Chinese CCTV, radio, newspapers, the Inner Mongolians are living in the slow death of cultural genocide and were about to vanish from the earth. It took only little more 50 years to completely overpopulate Southern Mongolia with Hans since People's Liberation Army (PLA) occupied Southern Mongolia in 1949with help of Inner Mongolian communist who actually had separate Southern Mongolian People's Party with ambition of creating independant state.
When realtionship between PRC and Mongolia is very strong in most friendly term, it would take long time, determined struggle and patience to wait collapse of PRC to achieve independance of Southern Mongolia. But also it is questionable that by that time would it be Mongol state or just a name...

Correct me if i'm wrong, but Chinese people have been living in 'southern' Mongolia for many centuries, assimilation, although damaging to a culture, is necessary for a minority to function in a country, after all would a person from Mongolia have a chance of being a successful executive in a Chinese company if he couldn't speak the language? No.

Also might i ask, what is your problem with Mongolia being apart of the PRC, despite your obviously cynical stance on the issue, i fail to see how China would destroy Mongolian national or cultural identity, if that were so then why exatly is Hindi still spoken in India despite British colonialism, why do many African nations still practice Voodoo as an actual religion, as they always have before the many centuries of European colonialism, despite it being banned, hell why is it that Australian Aborigines still uphold their ancestral beliefs despite a dedicated government program to wipe their race and culture, something which doesn't exist in China as the government doesn't make it its official policy to take Mongolian children away from their families and send them to live in special schools where they would be 'sinized', of course i'm sure you'd still that happened with little to no proof.

Neither were there were borders for sedentry people were throughout history moving into Mongolia.



That certainly not true as significant number of Mongols lived in Ming China perserving their way for several generations at least. In addition large number of sedentary people move from China into Mongolia and established farming communities.

After the defeat at Pingcheng, the Han emperor abandoned a military solution to the Xiongnu threat. Instead, in 198 BC, the courtier Liu Jing (劉敬) was despatched for negotiations. The peace settlement eventually reached between the parties included a Han princess given in marriage to the chanyu (called heqin 和親 or "harmonious kinship"); periodic gifts of silk, liquor and rice to the Xiongnu; equal status between the states; and the Great Wall as mutual border

I believe you can find original form of the text. It was something like Shanyu is ruler of felt tent people dwelling north of wall, Chinese king would rule only settled people south of Great wall. I don't remember



Large number of chinese sedentary people immigration to North started in beginning XX century. Before that, it was protected by Manchu rulers of Qing Dynasty.

You might should ask Qing emperors ''why do you want to restore this remote part of the world'' ??? but not PRC.




oh, that indeed requires lone time and great patience.



at least, they are not like their northern brothers who are totally russianized.

Don't forget Tuva Republic annexed by USSR in 1944. It was part of Qing China as well.

I think you don't know what you are writing about. I would advise you to to visit Mongolia. Mongolia is overcrowded with tourist who amazed and admired Mongolian culture which was kept all alive.
Thanks Soviets that helped Mongolia to stand against Han chauvinism.

good pics, but still not enough to prove your view as they are just about a festival and in the rural area. And as for the Han chauvinism, I think you are too emotional on this issue. The Mongol has departed from China for more than 80 years. And in most of this 80 years, Mongol was hostile toward China, thereby greatly limited Han minority's right in its own country. I cant figure myself out how Han Chauvinism works there. Instead, I think what Mongols talked most in the past should be Russia Chauvinism. Do not twist the truth to serve your own politicized views, please. It is kinda tragic.

Han chauvinism is not acceptable but russian chauvinism is acceptable ?

As l read, the russians either killed or chased away the manchurians/chinese who resided in outer manchuria so that they can invade the land.

Interesting topic.
I wonder why when many countries (once being colonized) or many of us here learn or used English or "Anglicized" is perfectly alright and political correct.
I wonder why when many Tibetan or Mongolian, Manchurian learn Hanyu or "sinicized" are consider
linguistical and cultural genocide??

To many Tibetan or Mongolian chauvinist>?? to learn Hanyu in a country of 92% Han majority, is
actually the only way to progress socially and scientifically.

likewise many minority Tibetan or Mongolian who seek refuge or live in the USA or Canada, they hv to
English in order to survive, don't they??
many Tibetan I come across, living in the western world are by no means marginalized (than in China)
their language or cultural becoming extinct when pass on to their 2nd generation. I wonder why they
never complain to UN human rights commission, they are being "genocide" in Canada or USA.
What a double standard.

I think you don't know what you are writing about. I would advise you to to visit Mongolia. Mongolia is overcrowded with tourist who amazed and admired Mongolian culture which was kept all alive.
Thanks Soviets that helped Mongolia to stand against Han chauvinism.

At least Renminbi still has mongolian word appear there, whereas Mongolian currency are all written
in Russian until recently. many of Northern Mongolian only cud speak Russian compared to their
southern Mongolia?? Russianized is a glory whereas sincized is a sin itself?? come on.

Your comments shows that again you don't know what you are writing.

Mongolian Currency writings were always in Mongolian language in 2 script Modern Cyrillic and old Uigur Mongol letters. Maybe your ignorance of those script made you to think that mongols used to write in Russian. Mongolia has no history of using Russian language for its offical currency or in courtroom. Mongolian language were always offical language in court and in schools. Like any other eastern block countries Russian language were thought in schools.

Russia and russian language was window to Europe for Mongolia. China was blockade for Mongolia will gain access to outside world. Any logical person could understand useful side of learning russian langauge, even chinese intelectuals were eager to learn russian. As i myself experienced average educated elder person in Beijing could speak russian language.





Through out the history of Mongol Empire and Mongolia. Mongols were bilingual in most cases.
1. Before and during Chinggis Empires, Mongols second language were turkic no doubt. Otherwise steppe nomads of Turkic and Mongol tribes could not coopearate and would have problem of communication.
2. During Mongola empires, most mongols adopted the language of conquered territories.
3. After collapse of Yuan Dynasty, tibetan language were second languages for most educated person due to reason of Mongol conversion to Buddhism.
4. During Manchu dominance of Mongols. Manchu and tibetan language were second langauges that people learned to speak.
5. During People's Republic of Mongolia, Russian language were most encouraged Language to learn. Moskow and Eastern Europian counrties ( East Germany, Hungary) were destination for educated people.

6. Since 1990, Mongolia is Republic of Mongolia. English, German, Japanese, Korean language most popular langauges to learn.

During all these historical periods Chinese language learning never forgetten, still kept alive.
All Mongols have to have good skill of Mongolian language, in order to achieve better position make career in Mongolia

We still have Mongolian traditional letters in use.

Thanx your enlightenment. it's always good to learn another language of your good neighbour don't
u think so?? are u Mongolian by chance??

Sure I am Mongolian

That is why i am here to correct you

Sure I met your president last year in a mining conference. understand he's also in a fight within
his own countrymen as to how to allocate the resources revenue appropriately.
also understand Mongolian aspiration of no returning to China....but unfortunately, at times, a
land-locked vast country with little population, the fear of ultimate assimilation by a giant neighbour is always there especially in times of severe winter in the western steppe.
The western world or Japan does not seem to be too "keen" in the vast resources and also fear
of interfering when the country is "sandwiched" with 2 giants.
In my opine, eventually, the Mongolian may have to learn Hanyu to appease the resource thirsty
of your southern neighbour including your much well off nei Meng....oops political incorrect.

You have good point!
Due to age long hostility of nomads and farmers and recent stagnant manchu dominance , in the beginning of XX century, Kalkha Mongols of North Mongolia chose Russian Empire then Soviet for back up Mongolia's independance. That was right choice. You can see Inner Mongolia which is stayed with Chna, recently occupied Tibet compare to North Mongolia.

There is no such thing as Russianization to Mongolia. Russia could not achieve Russification in Mongolia, because we are so different. If there are kind of russification exists in Mongolia, that is only in individual level , in those who simpathize Russia in order to minimize China's influence.

There is no Governmental direction like Chinese Sino-centric Ideology. Sinocentric chauvinism is milllenia old and most dangerious.

Khan Bilge, as it was the same in China, wanted to surround the Turkish country by the city walls, and to construct the castles.

In VII century GokTurks described about nomad and Chinese relationship in Orkhon inscriptions in Mongolia.

As minister Tonyukuk objected Bilge khan's idea of building empire like China
- : "Those should not be done. We are a nation that pass the time in the watery and grassy steppes. Our life style always keeps us in the exercise of war. The number of Gok-Turks is not even 1% of the Chinese people. Our success come from our living style. In our powerful periods we led the armies, and do the attacks. If we are weak, we withdraw to the steppes and fight. If we stay in the castles and city walls, Tsng's armies surround us, and invade our country…".

It means you were in Mongolia. It means you know Mongolians opinion about China .




I know chinese language for my personal usage, Personally I don't need more than that. Chinese speaks in English too. I am certain that time will come when china will adopt latin script.
There are lot more interesting things to do, people to see,places to go than learning chinese. Personally I don't want to waste my time learning chinese writing.

In my opinion, if chinese getting really dangeriously dominating Mongolia, we 'll move out. we are NOMADS.
Until that time, we resist everything from China within our capacity.

quote
In my opinion, if chinese getting really dangeriously dominating Mongolia, we 'll move out. we are NOMADS.
Until that time, we resist everything from China within our capacity.
unquote

then history will repeat itself, the cruel vicious cycle will continue. the spirit of Nomads will go on and
fight.
leave the painful historical parcel in burial, Han, Meng, Man, Zang, Hui shud live harmoniously and work together.
don't u think so??

You are right, but you should put yourself in Mongol shoe. if Mongols are not cautious about China, they will dissappear too soon, like all other previous nomads. History is harsh teacher

Mongolia is itself actually very naive in many way. still learning to deal with china. Mongolia was in unbelievably good term with China in 1950 and 1960-ies. Mongols were singing a song of Mao song east is red. Chinese workers were invited to built Ulaanbaatar.
Mongolia declared its borders peaceful border, abolished its armed force. After WWII there were no russian armed force in Mongolia. PRC was big brother like Soviet
But very soon Mao took off his mask, start making claim of Outer Mongolia as part of China. Who likes that, certainly not Mongols. communist China was same as nationalist China about Mongolia.
No compromise, Mongolians deported back to China thousands of Chinese people who did demonstration like red guards in UB. Although you chinese think Mongols are barbarian or something brutal, although Mongolians are not fond of chinese, Mongolians never acted like SEAsain rioter against settled chinese.
Mongols are patient and tolerant people. Chinese are quick nasty tempered, bad mouth, arrogant when they have upper hand.
If you are chinese, be honest. Everyone knows what chinese thinks about their weaker neighbours

As long as chinese trying claim mongolia, its history and heritage, then Mongols cannot get along with that giant neighbours.

Leftovers from an imperialistic era, properly inherited and cared for.

Without the Mongols, the Manchus would not have conquered the Ming dynasty so easily.

So blame the Manchus for the current size of China.

I think you still live or had the mentality like it in the era of the 40's or 50's during Mao's cultural upheaval.
i belive that all races/ethnics or countries for that matter had its own "shameful" history.
not all Chinese (politicians) behave in such way, and the current Chinese system, alas not to its "perfection" in Marx
terms, cud improve more so in many years to come when the democratic institution will be formulated.

say, hypothetically, Mongolia, still fragile in democracy. has due to its political difference betwn each
tribe, turn its country into warlordism, fragment of society into chaotic and tribalism rules, and the very
survival of the society was in great jeopardy. would Mongolia ppl vote to join their distant cousin like
Japan or Korean who, I belive, hypothetical wanting your resources and close culture proximity. would
u join Japan or Korean?? just personal...opinion since Mongolian, overall has deep hatres and resentment
towards the great old Chinese empires for centuries.

Not too sure about Mongolia, but the PRC populace has abandoned some of their super-icons eg Mao...His badges are now museum artefacts and collector items and you would not really see the pictures of Mao everywhere in big cities...

Rather, you would see pictures of Yao Ming...and other people...(which is good).

err i thought those rmb words the cyrillic ones are zhuang language?"

It's truly a stupid, unrealistic and unethical notion that the PRC needs to "claim" the ROM. ROM is an independent country just like the PRC is. At the time when the Americans are encircling us by enlisting countries like the ROM, it is ultra-stupid to talk about claiming Outer Mongolia. We need to keep our relations with the Mongolians on best terms so that they won't be used by the Americans to choke us.

I thought we were discussing on reclaiming outer manchuria which is in russian hands and not outer mongolia.

^Does that even matter? Whether the US picks on China or not, it is obvious that for China to claim territory from any other nation would only worsen its reputation. Taiwan alone is doing enough of that already.

Exactly. Worry about Taiwan province, not ROM.

Taiwan and china will eventually become one country. This is proof from history when china was disunited many times and then united again. eg. 3 kingdoms.

A bigger problem is that of outer manchuria.

^not really, due to that only in 1/10 th of Chinese history did China ever own Taiwan. And even if China owned Taiwan 100% of the time through history, that doesn't mean China will eventually own it again. That's just an excuse for leaders to slack on their job.

Mongolia used to own all of China too, why not distintigrate China into Mongolia now?

Ooops ... I should've read the OP !

I think xng's Outer Manchuria is refering to Russian Far East including Vladivostok, Khabaraovsk, no clear border, it might reach to North Pole.