I want to learn as much as I can about Chinese Martial arts here!

I'd also like to completely understand how 'Kung Fu' became so ridiculously stylised in modern times. What I mean is that it's really ineffective, no fighters use kung fu. I mean fighters like in www.pridefc.com

From what I've heard- Government encouraged spread of innefective fighting styles, keeps the public weak. Historically the military has taught its own martial arts, kept hidden from the public.
I've also heard the PRoC encouraged Wushu and discouraged 'real' martial arts to create a weak fighting style that granted no power.

I'm sure someone who 'knows' 'kung fu' will be able to beat up Joe-Shmo, but what I mean is that he's going to get floored by a Gracie.

I don't believe there is any top level kungfu or any martial artists of their style has ever faught in the UFC, due to the reason that other competition such as K1, boxing, and the like make much more money. On the contrast those grapplers were all top level fighters in UFC, so these comparison is a bit invalid.

工夫 gongfu or in English "kungfu", only refers to martial arts in general. It's incorrect to speak of kungfu in the same sense as for example karate or taekwondo. There are many "styles" of kungfu like 少林 Shaolin for example. No one just says "I know kungfu", maybe except for ignorant American actors like Keanu Reeves . They usually would state which style like Shaolin.

What do you mean "kungfu is a joke nowadays?" It certainly doesn't seem like a joke to me.

Regarding www.pridefc.com, I don't know much about it but I did quickly go through the website. It doesn't seem like a respectable martial arts organization. It's nothing but bunch of pumped up muscle men beating each other up for money.

I suggest you read up on Bruce Lee's attempts to develop a martial arts that is effective in combat. He did not restrict his sources from any particular system but was open to new ideas. Some of the people who came to study under him had prior training in other forms and Bruce also learned from them.

BTW, which government are you talking about?

IN some countries like Singapore, Martial Arts as a sports is regulated by the government. One of the reason was historical - arose from crackdown against secret societies and criminal gangs which had close associations with some martial arts schools. Another was to ensure students and practicioners do not get serious injuries during sparring sessions. This would mean certain moves could not be taught or practiced.

From personal experience, how effective any martial arts is does not depend on the form or style or school but on the individual's ability to read the opponent, to act and to react.

I took up karate for a few years in my late teens. During practice, I always lose to a fellow student more than 20 years older but took up karate at the same time. He was physically less fit than me, less dexterous and all. He explained to me that he had developed his instincts way back during his mispent youth "street fighting" in school, while I never fought in school.

Before you say kung fu is highly stylised, perhaps you should specify what you had seen to clarify what you mean.

Many Eastern styles such as Karate require students to practice the 'kata', and the students were oft not taught the significance of the 'kata'. Is that what you mean?

grappling is very dominating in the modern arena fights of the last few decades.... but most of the prominent styles of martial arts usually don't involve a ton of them... why?

partially because grappling is very effective in 1v1... but if ur fighting in a situation that involve many people (which is a lot more REAL then closing urself in a ring agianst a single oppent)... throwing yourself on the ground and basically staying in contact with a single oppent for a long peirod is probably not the best idea ever.

but as many already pointed out, Kung Fu is basically a wide generalization of all Chinese martial arts. the styles can be as different as just about any martial arts around the world....

One thing that did effect the development of Chinese martial art (or rather it's destruction) was the cultural revolution and the comming of the Communist in general, the martial artist were considered a "symble of feudualism" and were widely persecuted espically during Cutural revolution times.... most artist either died, fled or hide their identity... not passing on their very valuable knowledge to the next generation..... although it is making a recovery since the late 70s early 80s... the damage done might be quiet permenant

Kung Fu basically just mean "the acomplishment of ur practice" unless you specifically name a particular sect it's rather hard to judge what you mean by "weak"

The TV/movie perception of Kung Fu can be rather misleading... for the sake of movies usually people only show off the most fancy and flashy moves of high flying kicks or things like that.... Bruce Lee did know how to grapple to my knowledge and he's style involved many things that really weren't shown in his movies... even just from some documentaries u can see him stressing things like "everything, even biting is acceptable" ... usually teh only situation where biting is viable is when ur tied up on the ground.

I have not seriously practiced any Kung Fu but i do know a few basic things and a few moves... but for one very very few styles in Chinese martial arts to my knowledge uses a lot of kicks.... espically the flying kicks... i'm always very lost to where the flying high kicks in all those Kung Fu movies are from?... to my knowledge even very fierce styles like Ba Ji 八極拳have very few big kick moves... but it seem to be the most commonly seen move in movies....

I know Kung Fu is not a style in itself, but it was the most fitting word to use.

Have you watched Pride FC fights? They are very skilled muscle men who fight for money.

I guess one of my points can be made with Bruce Lee...
he discarded the idea of learning styles, and went around beating martial arts masters, the one I remember most was in California.

When I say stylised, I just mean... well, it's stylised. Hmmm, how do I clarify... I just know that 'kung fu' masters lost very badly when mixed-martial arts started gaining popularity. Everything's too 'fancy'. From what I know, Muay Thai seems to be the supreme striking 'style', very straight foreward with punches/kicks/knees/elbows, no flashy moves that you see in 'kung fu'

There are sevearl problems with Kung Fu learning .
1. the system is rather disorganized: there is no large scale organization to learn a particular style let alone a combined factor... the closest thing are run by the PRC government and is not very accessable for the ppl who want to learn..... so they have to go around looking for true masters... which is very hard to find in itself..... the same can't be said about most other "big" fighting styles around like Karate/Muay Thai/boxing etc... you KNOW where to go to learn those... but you don't REALLY know where to go to learn the Kung fu you want.

2.The whole Chinese martial art line took a huge hit from around the late 40s to the late 70s... it's just realing in from that hit let alone improve itself for a more modernlized approach...

Yes I've seen a couple of pride fights before though that was a long time ago...... i know it's basically anything goes (except for biting and going for eyes/genital I think)

Again you need to more obviously point out what "stylish" fighting do you mean? I've seen a few style myself and although yes many do involve a lot of self limitation it's certainly a lot less than say... Karate or Taekwando or boxing or Akido etc... (in general anyway)

basically what i'm saying is.... the main reason why the pro fighters don't learn Kung Fu is really not as much because it's ineffective as because it's too difficult to make sure their efforts will be worth it... e.g acturally finding a proper organization where they can learn in a limited period of time....

Why it's becuase of those degrading one man army vs all of ming films (such as hero *don't hurt me just an opinion*). There films make a joke out of martial arts as well as chinese culture in general.

Lord of the Rings makes a complete mockery of European folklore. Everyone knows elves are 2ft tall and make shoes!

What about that Hercules? He's an embarassment to the Greeks!

Rocky/Raging Bull- Those movie is a stain upon the boxing world, NO boxing matches are like the ones portrayed on those movies!



Wuxia is a genre completely unique to China, it comes from novels and folklore, how is that a joke?
A movie is understandable, of coure it doesn't work in real life, just like how gamma rays probably only cause cancer, and holding pistols John Woo style will throw off your aim

Once again, I completely agree.

Hey, I found a real Kung Fu fighter!
Cung Le, a Vietnamese who uses San Shou Kung Fu

http://cungle.com/cungle/index.html

Was drunken fist, crane, etc ever actually used in battle by generals? Or did they just know these to show off to their troops, and used regular martial arts in actual combat?

Well..IMV, martial arts (kungfu), in the form of what you see in movies, were never really used in chinese warfare. Martial arts were more used as self-defense, although more negative use of them are used in assassination.

All soldiers in ancient chinese armies are trained in combat form of martial arts rather than in the drunken fist, crane etc. The drunken fist, crane etc. that you see in movies are shown as self-defense and never really used in war. What I mean by combat form of martial arts are often the use of weaponry (e.g . Swords, Lancers) used with Shield used in fighting. They were trained to be professional killer and to follow orders of general, and to march and follow the formation.

Of course, they were also trained in bare-hand fightings (another form of martial arts). Because these martial arts require much physical stamina, soldiers had to train themselves well physically to bear the physical experience they have, being able to march long distance, charging etc.

If you're a cavalry soldier, you will be trained in horse combat, in horse archery etc. If you're a archer, you will be trained in archery etc.

Regarding Chinese armies, approximately what percentage of say a Han or Ming army would have been regular soldiers (trained in weapon-skills, horsemanship, command and control) and what approximate percentage would have been drafted peasants, rushed into the ranks to bolster number (I guess the Arrow-Fodder since Cannon-Fodder is a slightly anachronistic term)?

Kungfu was developed into some artisan form that it betrayed its origin as a sheer fighting or killing art. In film form, it is usually exaggerated that physical laws are not well respected. In actual combat, no one cares how nice his pose looks, but in kungfu, one surely cares.
Kungfu is fit for individual fights but almost useless in mass fights. Double-edged swords, for example, are principal weapons great people in swordsman plays carry along. But in actual combat, they are doubtlessly much less effective killing instruments than single-edged swords. Double-edged swords quickly gave way to single-edged ones as the forgery of the latter matured in the early years of Han Dynasty.
However, kungfu is a good exercise which not only keeps the exerciser physically healthy but also trains his thinking in fighting conditions. There are universal rules of fight embodied in kungfu that are applicable in actual combat, though one is not supposed to faithfully use kungfu in bloody war.

Au Contraire.

General Zhao,
The Crane, Drunken, etc styles seemed to come with the advent of Wushu...much of what's seen today is solely for show, and has very little martial value.
The Shaolin of today is different from Shaolin of old, now it specializes not in fighting arts, but show.
Cniht,
Kung Fu IS meant for fighting, but much of what y ou see now, with exaggerated poses, jumps, etc is Wushu, a mix of Martial Arts moves and Acrobatics or gymnastics. While Wushu people may beat Joe Schmoe with their improved body, it's very dangerous to adhere to the poses in there. Some of the leg curvature in the poses allows for real fighters using say, Thai Boxing to take advantage of, letting them break a leg in a kick. Straight arms and rigid bodies allow a user of Taiji to break snap limbs or lock a practicioner. The punches are meant more for show than use, generating relatively little power as compared to a real external boxer or internal arts practicioner
Many forms of Kung Fu are meant for actual fighting, ie. Taizu Fist, Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji, all of which are very dangerous and lethal if one knows how to fight with them.

The Jian was no pushover in terms of killing power. However, more skill was required for its use than a saber.
A heavy Jian is as powerful as any Saber if used right.
But Sabers optimize the power of the slash, a better technique to use on the field, as compared to the thrust.

Hahaha... can you imagine 50,000 Chinese troops all doing drunken style gongfu at the same time? That's a lot of drunks haha

Hmmm, not really. Depends on the armor. A thrusting sword is much better at penetrating iron, which a slash will have much greater difficulty with.
Real killing weapons were spears/polearms and bows/crossbows anyways. Real as in that's what most fighting is done with.
Like the longsword of the west, most killing was done with bows/crossbows and spears/polearms. Use of straight blades in the west also shows their effectiveness.

That must be hilarious. Or maybe one side fighting with crane style and another side with monkey style, we will have a zoo here.

So, a guy wouldn't use drunken fist in the middle of a fight? I thought that drunken form was one of the most popular in China. I guess thats just for looks.

I'm not sure what you understand of real ancient warfare, but it's certain not 1v1 duels x 5000000 (or however many soliders each side have) people don't just rush out and find a oppenent to fight, they organized into ranks or other formations, unless you REALLY defy physics, you are not going to beat a wall of pike ramming into you... except with the same thing yourself (or try to use ranged options etc...)


You misunderstood a lot of things, kungfu is simply a term meaning "the result of your practice", while modern movies etc exaggerate it's true form, it does the same for many things... European knights is another easy example... that doesn't mean their weren't really european knights or they didn't wear full plate or ride horses, just that it's not really like how they describe it. so the terms "in kungfu it matters" is just wrong, more like "in MOVIES" it matters.

As for people carrying double edge swords, you overlook the fact that the lone swordsmen that carry such weapons usually don't fight armored mass oppenets. they fight other lone unarmored men or a few of them, in which the versitality of dobule edge sword is at least not inferior to those of single edge onces. the single edge blade is developed for mass battles, and after quiet early point in chinese history most armies use it more than they use double edge swords.

Overall, I think there are two very key concept people should be aware or.
1. most wushu today are NOT designed for armies in a ancient war, they were designed for individuals to defend themself in everyday situations.

2. most of the wushu in movies are either totally fake or highly exaggerated, while some of the actors are indeed real martial artist and will easily murder anyone who's not trained in such arts (like Jet Lee.) it doesn't mean that everything in the movie is real.

As for wether Chinese martial arts are indeed good at individual fightings, that's a whole nother debat suited for a different thread.

My question was wether generals used these tactics. There are often 1vs1 fights before generals at the start of the fight to boost army moral. Or, a general might challenge another general for some reason, thats when I'm wondering abou the martial arts. Do they actually use these tactics in such situations?

Oh, and why does it say in the quote that my name is Zhu Zhongtang?

Acturally if you are referring to the romanance of the 3 kingdom, there is little real historical proof of called duels in Chinese warfares, and even if there is, it was fought on horsebacks, while there are definately queit a bit of special tactics in horseback fighting, it's definatly nothing to do with the martial arts you see today.

Spring and Autumn period and before, that's the age of 'chivalry' in China. Fractured kingdoms here and there, following codes of 'honor' in battle, duels between generals. After that, it was professional.

I've heard that Imperial Guardsmen were taught unarmed fighting. I don't know if this was the policy of one Dynasty, what dynasty, or who started it.
Wushu is also not a real fighting art, it's more like a dance. The Communist government promoted it because it's not a real fighting art, and won't really do anything against a trained fighter.

Not really, it all depends on the combatants and what you meant by trained fighter. If a person trained in Wushu fights all day don't that count as a trained fighter?

Ming dynasty's Jingyiwei supposedly are skilled individual fighters, they function sort of like the KGB and are used to carry out the "dirty" works of the court.

In early Spring and Autumn period they fought more like classical greeks did, i.e meet at pre planed places and both form formation then charge... instead of anything goes and great deceptions etc... in those days there weren't even calvarise anyway and I fail to see how you can "duel" on chariots.

Imperial guardmen might know more unarmoed fighting because their duty sometimes include guards duty within the imperial court. in which there might be situations where unarmed fightings are neccesary, however there isn't a whole lot of historical evidences to prove it at least.

Your wrong, Wushu is real fighting skill, that why the communist PERSECUTED IT, they only started to promote it in recent years due to it's tourist value and the fact that they are straying away from their fundementalist ideals of the early days.

Promoting it for tourist value will obviously drive it more towards show instead of real skill, then again the lack of competition and proper organization and enough fully devoted talents (most practitioners are part time while more full time are doing it for show )also makes wushu today not as competitive (or at least on the surface) as other martial arts.

Will need lots of wine, but well worth the effort/expense to see!

How about B. K Frantzis (martial arts teacher and author on chinese martial arts)?

In the 1960s, he was a Taekwondo and Karate International champion who went to china to challenge the legendary taichi/qigong/wushu masters.

Not only did he get trashed, even some of the students beat him. His hard style of martial arts was no match.

Read B.K. Frantzis' books.

Now he teaches qigong/taichi in the USA.

Jieming

Right now, I believe the most successful fighters use Muay Thai + Brazillian Jujitsu.

When 'anything goes' style fighting tournaments came back, 'Kung Fu' and karate masters were all stomped by wrestlers and kick boxers. Even Bruce Lee proved that fancy 'styles' of martial arts are weak, by defeating their masters.

I feel like China's 'lost' alot of their fighting arts through ritualization and forgetting function.

check www.pridefc.com for real fighting arts.

Bruce Lee got his A** kicked by a guy from Shaolin.

As for Thai kick boxing and Brazillian Jujitsu, just because you see them on TV don't mean they are the best. On the other side of the same coin, just because you don't see a martial art style on TV don't mean a master of that style cannot kick some A**.

When did he get beat by a Shaolin guy? Not that I doubt you, I just never heard of this before.

I'm pretty confident in saying that some of the greatest martial artists in history are probably alive in this time. In these fighting tournaments, like Pride FC, you have fighters from all around the world, together, competing against each other, learning from each other's styles in a way unmatched at any other era. Stylised 'Kung fu' and karate masters have been thoroughly beaten, the ones that succeed are those who discard stylized fighting.

Brazillian Jujitsu, founded by a Japanese jujitsu master who immigrated to Brazil, carried on by the Gracie family. In a legendary fight, 1951, Kimura, a Japanese Judo master, took on Helio Gracie, and defeated him

http://www.judoinfo.com/kimura3.htm <-- Kimura


(Note, this guy grew up in the first half of the 20th century, no fancy drugs or weight gainers, that's all rice and hard work!)

I think very interesting figures in recent fighting history that are fun to look up are...
The Gracie family, Mas Oyama (the bull killer guy), and Masahiko Kimura.

Unfortunately, asides from Bruce Lee, I don't know of any notable Chinese fighters.
Though I heard Mas Oyama was defeated completely by an old Chinese Tai Chi master. I figure old Tai Chi masters wouldn't care to fight in tournaments anyways.


Young Mas Oyama wrestling a bull

He became known as the 'God hand'

"Mas Oyama, in order to show the strength of his karate, tested his strength by fighting raging bulls bare-handed. It was a mismatch from the get-go for the bulls, not for Oyama. In all, he fought 52 bulls, three of which were killed instantly, and 49 had their horns taken off with knife hand blows. That it is not to say that it was all that easy for him. Oyama was fond of remembering that his first attempt just resulted in an angry bull. In 1957, at the age of 34, he was nearly killed in Mexico when a bull got some of his own back and gored him. Oyama somehow managed to pull the bull off and break off his horn. He was bedridden for 6 months while he recovered from the usually fatal wound. "

"If he hit you, you broke. If you blocked a rib punch, you arm was broken or dislocated. If you didn't block, your rib was broken. He became known as the Godhand, a living manifestation of the Japanese warriors' maxim Ichi geki, Hissatsu or "One strike, certain death"


Sean Connery was one of his many many many students (he had a giant school)
Though the only evidence of his martial arts skill seems to be on his wife

I believe the top level for a fighter is just followed the saying of Sun Zi(孙子·武): 不战而屈人之兵(to defeat an adversary without fight).

That's a lot of no can dos for "anything goes"
Jujitsus/Wrestling and grapplings in general is far more dominent in fighting events like Pride not particularly because they are superior to fist and kicks, more to the fact that the rules and the way the fighting is conducted in general (1 on 1) favors it much more. (case in point, elbowing someone in the face or going for he's groin or bitting are all very good ways to counter someone who try to grapple you, and ur not allowed to do that in pride... where as there is very little rules that favors the other direction... and in general grappling becomes very risky if it's not a one on one as ur very likely to get stepped on or have other people intervine.... ) now tell me... is 1 on 1 half naked and not being able to go for groin/bite/elbow etc... what happens in "real" fighting?

Chinese martial arts is indeed losing a lot of it's fighting edge due to the lack of competition and participant of true talents and the drawing away to show that much is true, but to say that it is not made for fighitng or doesn't contain very useful fighting skills is just ludicous

I'm saying whatever passes for 'kung fu' nowadays really isn't going to be effective in an actual fight.
Look at what Bruce Lee did, he just picked efficient moves over tradition, and went around beating kung fu masters.

Yes, there's still rules to Pride FC. They want their fighters to return for 2nd matches. The early UFC was closer to 'anything goes'. I think Brazil still holds 'anything goes' matches.


Cung Lee is a pretty successful fighter, he uses some form of kung fu. I can't find his website at the moment tho'. Watching him fight, it looks like muay thai tho'.

Those Thai boxers usually trained 6-10 hours a day that make them so strong and as for the grapplers(jujitsu/wrestling) is mostly because of the rules. But if you look at those who use Kungfu in fighting, most of them just train 2-3 times a week and 2-3 hours a day only. But if you want to know about some great Chinese boxers, i will give some example:

1)Guo-Yunshen : He was a famous Xingyi boxer from Hebei and his half step peng-quan can send someone flying more than 20 feet away from him and he killed adult horse with a simple twist of his palm. But when people examine the horse, it had no bruise or external injury but the internal organs was smashed to pieces.

2)Li-Shuwen : Master of Eight Extreme Fist(Baji-quan) and possesed the skill of divine spear. He killed all his opponents with one single strike only.

3)Huo-Yanchia : Beat all his opponents in less than 10 strike including more than 70 Japanese fighters and samurai, European Boxers and Gladiators. He even had a record of killing the giant Russian wrestler who was a champion in western wrestling technique with only one simple strike and all foreigners called him yellow face tiger.

4)Wang-Xiangzhai : A student and nephew of Guo-Yunshen. He defeated many foreigners when he was alredy 50-60 years old. One of his opponent was a famous Japanese warrior. But this guy was so terribly beaten by him and he decided to study with Wang and he was very lucky because he was the first and the only foreigner that was accepted to become Wang's student. Later after world war 2 when he went back to Japan he use Chinese martial arts that Wang taught him and defeated all the Japanese that challenged him. Even the famous Mas Oyama learned from him. His name was Kenichi Sawai.

Those Chinese Boxers that i mentioned lived from mid/late 19th century to early/mid 20th century.

The most powerful arts are the 3 great internal arts. They leave no surface wounds, but the internal organs ar destroyed.

Tai Ji
Xing Yi
Ba Gua

Are the big three

I train with a really good teacher...he holds nothing back, he teaches all he knows...when he does something, you can tell he's really powerful...he doesn't use alot of energy to make something hurt. And you can feel that he can control his energy, and you know that he never used his full extent.

No surface wounds but servere internal wounds...to be expected from a powerful internal user.

Hey Sip, do you have any links/book names in english with info on these guys? They sound very interesting.

I haven't heard of any Chinese competing in mixed martial arts tournaments though, mostly US, Russian, Brazillian and Japanese. With China being big in everything in the near future, I can see Chinese fighters in PrideFC soon.

I think you can find them in some Chinese martial arts book. I saw them when i was reading a book on Wushu in my relative house. If i remember correctly the title of the book was "Famous Chinese Boxers/Martial artists and Chinese martial arts". You will find lots of famous Kungfu Masters in Chinese History from the Ming Dynasty to Modern era in that book. The book was written in English but i don't know where to buy the book. Perhaps you can search in google and who know you can find some profiles of those Kungfu Masters.

First of all, the terms "Gong Fu" or "Chinese martial art" often become synonomous with Shaolin which is the half truth. the history of Chinese martial arts is not just shaolin and certainly does not begin with Shaolin.

the "forms" practiced in gong fu are derived from infantry excercises the military practiced. the 18 movement exercise that damo taught the original shaolin monks weren't even combat related

it is true however that Chinese military never used shaolin martial arts, but that doens't mean martial arts weren't used.

for instance, i was part of Hua Lin Pai for many years, it is a hybrid of Shaolin and NON-Shaolin styles. we had over 100 weapon forms and most of them were clearly used for infantry and warfare combat especially the Guan Dao and two hand Jian forms (clearly NOT of Shaolin origin) and clearly used for combat on a battle field. Chinese soldiers were also taught a wrestling style called Shui Chao just in case they lost their weapon and had to grapple (this style is the ancestor to jiujitsu btw)

its a shame most Chinese boys look down on gong fu because of the stereotypes that movies as well as performance wushu(acrobatics and gymnastic dance with a few punches and kicks put in) spread.

me and my 師兄們 took real combat seriously. after vigorously practicing forms, we would spar and have excercises for application of technique. one of my shi xiong would actually randomly punch me while we hung out to test my reflexes

I can't type your name, as I am illiterate, but it makes me super-happy to know that combat arts are still being taught here and there.

just about all major cities in north america have real gong fu schools, both shaolin and non-shaolin origins. all real gong fu is combat related. it purely depends on the person as a student to apply what he has learned. most students don't practice forms enough or they don't spar or two man excercises enough and overall, they don' think about the technique they're practicing, so when they end up fighting, all they do is run at them, push, and punch like a maniac. one of my shi xiong worked as a bouncer and every night, he would apply his Hua Lin and Shui Chao pressure point and grappling to get aggressive drunks out of the place.

is it true that a large percentage of martial artistists and "boxer mercs" a century or two ago tended to be Chinese Muslims? It seems that they adopted Kung Fu and created several derivatives such as ha Quan, Hua Quan, 10 Routine Tom Toy, Liu Lu Duan Quan, Toi Quan, Yong Chan Quan.

Different regions produced different styles. In the south, styles such as Hung Kuen, Choy Li Fuy, Wing Chun, Mok Ga, Lau Ga, Li Ga, Choy Ga, Bak Mei, Taiji, Southern Praying Mantis grew prominence. The southern arts usually emphasized the fist and hand techniques. Whereas the north has Bajiquan, Xingyi, Bagua, Changquan, Mizong, Taiji, Eagle Claw, etc which has more kicks and acrobats.

But like someone else has said, most of the military martial arts involved weaponry(including archery and horsemanship), with unarmed combat as supplement. It makes sense. Why go into battle with your fists when you can go in with a spear and in armor.

By the way Shaolin has been way embellished and overrated by legends and hype. They were only famous when the 13 monks captured Wang Shizhong's nephew and the 40 monk-soldiers sent to fight the wokou(they perished). They were never that influential in martial arts till the 1700's period. B4 then, it is almost safe to say that the most efficient and powerful martial artists/warriors are in the military itself. Think about it, who has seen more action........a soldier quelling internal unrests/fighting foreign wars or a monk isolated most of the time in a monastery. During a visit to the Shaolin Temple in the 1500's, the Ming general Yu Dayou was given a staff demonstration by the monks. He was disappointed and told the monks that their 'revered' staff techniques has declined. He then invited two monks with him on campaign and trained them with his own techniques. The monks bring what they learned from Yu back to the temple. Alot of what you see or depicted in movies, you have to take with a grain of salt.

I found this, very good article on Hui contribution to Chinese martial arts
http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/statyi/mosl.html

The only issue i have with this piece is that they imply the Hui are totally different people than the Han which is not true. A vast majority of Hui's are Han converts to Islam, with a few percentage being Bai and other small minorities, and another few probably having legitimate Arab/Persian ancestry.

-------------------

This article was published in Qigong Wushu Kung Fu, June- July 1996. The article was posted on the kung fu mailing list for review prior to publication.
Moslem Influence on Traditional Chinese Martial Arts
by Salvatore Canzonieri
The Hui Peoples
A little known fact about China is that it houses the second largest Moslem population in the world. These people are called the Hui and number about fourteen million. During the 10th Century (the Song Dynasty - 960 to 1279 AD), many Persians and Arabs traveled to and from China. Eventually, some of these people made permanent settlements and intermingled with the various Chinese peoples they encountered (China contains about 55 different minority groups), causing the Islamic religion to spread to various parts of China. By the 13th Century, the Hui were widely scattered throughout China, but many mostly Moslem communities emerged in the Northern regions, particularly in the Henan, Hebei, Shangtung, and Shaanxi provinces.

Embracing of Chinese Martial Arts One of the things that the Hui people embraced most about China was its martial arts traditions. The Hui were a hardy and courageous people, surviving the long and perilous journey from the Persian (Iraqi/Iranian) Middle Eastern lands. The Hui quickly took a liking to ancient Chinese wu shu (such as Shuai Chiao or Chinese Grappling, Pao Quan, Tong Bei Quan, Liu Ho Quan, Tai Tzu Chang Quan, Ba Ji Quan, Pi Qua Quan, etc.) and worked long and hard at excelling in it. Eventually they developed their own unique styles of wu shu (such as the Cha Quan, Hua Quan, 10 Routine Tan Toi, Liu Lu Duan Quan, Toi Quan, Yong Chan Quan, and others) by assimilating the various styles of Chinese wu shu that were indigenous to the North.

Before the invention of guns, wu shu was the major means of combat and self defense in China. The Hui chiefs called upon their people to learn wu shu as a "holy practice" in order to help foster discipline and bravery during their struggle for survival in their adopted land. Even today, during their holy days of Lesser Bairam (festival of fast breaking), Corban, and the Prophet's Birthday, the Hui people gather at their local mosques and hold wu shu contests and exhibitions. In the past, many of the Hui joined the Chinese military and had illustrious careers in it, often rising to the rank of General. Also, because of this, many Hui were fiercely loyal about supporting the various Chinese Emperors, even though the Hui were of foreign origin.

Hui Loyalty to Chinese Empire
After the Mongolians had taken over China, forming the Yuan Dynasty (1279-1368), many Chinese loyalists schemed to bring back the throne to China. A peasant uprising finally succeeded in uniting the Chinese people against their Mongol invaders. The rebellion was led by Zhu Yuan Zhang, who toppled the Mongolian imperial court and founded the much beloved Ming Dynasty, becoming its first emperor. Fighting with him were some of China's most famous generals (i.e., Chang Yu Chun, Hu Da Hai, Mu Ying, Lan Yu, Feng Sheng, and Ding De Xing), who were all Hui Moslem wu shu experts. Chang Yu Chan became famous for founding a spear fighting method that is still taught today, the famous "kai ping qiang fa".

During the turmoil of the later Ming Dynasty period (1368- 1644), when the invading Manchu tribe made many raids on the Chinese empire and eventually took it over, many Hui fought sought by side with the Chinese Han people in rebellions against the Manchu Ching Dynasty. Ma Shou Ying, a Hui Moslem, together with Li Zi Cheng (King Chuang) participated in the rebellion, leading a troop of mostly Moslem peasants. Ma was called "Lao Hui Hui", meaning "Hui the Senior" and his troops were called the "Lao Hui Hui Battalion". Even after the Manchu succeeded in controlling China, the Hui fought against them. In 1862, Du Wen Xiu lead an uprising of the Hui people in Yunnan Province (against Ching Emperor Tong Zhi) and swept over a dozen provinces in southwest and northwest China.

Because of the Hui's continued loyalty to the Chinese Empire, throughout the Ching Dynasty (1644-1911), the Hui were treated cruelly and ruthlessly suppressed whenever they showed the least bit of malcontent against the Manchu rulers. It was made forbidden for three or more Huis to walk together with weapons on them or they would be severely punished. If any Huis were caught committing crimes, they were tattooed on their faces with the characters "Hui zui" ("Hui rebel"). This punishment was meant to humiliate the Hui while at the same time serving to intimidate them from further rebellious actions. But, suppression only served to make the Hui people more determined than ever.

Hui Contribution to Chinese Martial Arts
After the Ming Dynasty, in opposition to the martial arts prohibition forced upon by the Manchurian Ching Dynasty, many Hui wu shu masters developed their own schools of wu shu that continue to exist to this day. The contributions of these Hui wu shu masters have been far reaching and embraced by many styles of Chinese wu shu kung fu. In the Jixiao Xinshu, written by the famous Ming military strategist Qi Ji Guang, three famous spear schools are listed (the Yang, Ma, and Sha families). Both the Ma and Sha families were Hui. These spear methods are still taught today among their family descendants. Also, the "Hui Hui Shi Ba Zou" (18 fist fighting exercises of the Hui) was considered to be the very best in combat exercises. The noted anti-Ching public figure Gan Feng Chi included the exercises in his book Hua Quan Zong Jiang Fa (A General Talk on Flower Boxing).

There have been many famous Hui wu shu martial artists, with them often winning national wu shu competitions that were open to all styles. Wang Zi Ping (1881-1973) was a very famous Cha Quan master and he won honors by defeating many foreigners in wu shu contests with his swift and fierce attacks, while representing China. Wang was vice-president of the Chinese Wu Shu Association. At 80 years of age, he accompanied the later Premier Chou En Lai on his visit to Burma and gave an exhibition that astounded the audience with his dexterity and vigor. Ma Fengtu set up the patriotic China Warriors Society (in 1919). His brother Ma Yingtu won the title at the first national wu shu contest held in 1929. Chang Wen Quang was another great Cha Quan master, winning many tournaments. In 1936, he attended the 11th Olympics Games in Berlin as a specially invited member of the Chinese Wu Shu team. There he gave demonstrations ofvarious routines from the Cha Quan style. He later became vice-president of the National Wu Shu Association.

The Shaolin Temple even adopted the Hoi people's Tan Toi (springing leg) style of wu shu as a training form to develop the legs and stamina of it students, as did many other Northern and Southern schools of kung fu. It is a common saying in traditional Chinese wu shu circles that "if your tan toi is good, then you're kung fu is good", because mastering the demands of tan toi allowed one to master the basic fundamentals of wu shu kung fu in general. The Hui's Tan Toi became very popular all over China, leading to another saying, " From Nanking to Beijing, the best players of the lower-leg exercises come from Islamic religious circles". The Cha Quan and Hua Quan boxing styles that are today enjoyed by Northern Long Fist schools also were developed by the Hui peoples. Other styles developed or adopted by the Huis are Ba Ji Quan (Eight Diagram Boxing, handed down by the Moslem Wu Zhong), Liu He (six combination) spear, Liu He Quan, Hebei Xing I Quan, Tong Bei Quan, Pi Qua Quan, and Liu He Ba Fa. There are conflicting but similar origin stories between the Cha/Hua Quan styles and the Tan Toi style.

The Origin of the Cha/Hua Quan Styles
According to the Cha family boxing chronicles, Cha Quan is a popular and very old Northern Chinese fighting style, originating around the same time as Shaolin was developing. The style is based on quick, agile movements interspersed with sudden stops and steady still stances, performers are said to be "now moving like the wind, now standing nailed to the ground." During the Tang Dynasty (618-907 AD), the Emperor sent a military crusade on an expedition to eastern China, to fight off foreign invaders. When the army reached Guanxian County in present day Shangtung Province, a young general (and Hui Moslem) named Hua Zong Qi was forced to remain behind to recuperate from serious wounds. When he recovered, he was most grateful to the villagers who cared for him, and he decided to teach the local people his martial art, which he called Jianzi Quan (Frame Boxing).

A great number of people became his followers due to his good wu shu skills and earnest teaching methods. Soon, his classes grew so big that he sent for his senior student from his home town to help him, Cha Yuan Yi. Cha was quite proficient at martial arts as well, but his Jianzi Quan had a different emphasis than that of General Hua's. Hua's version had fully extended movements and was called Da Jia Quan (big frame boxing); Cha's version had fast, compact movements and was called Xiao Jia Quan (small frame boxing).

The two versions were taught as one style. The villagers discontinued the Jianzi Quan name and instead calledthe style, Cha-Hua Boxing. The Hua version had 4 routines (or forms) that were long and full of varied tricky moves. The names of the four forms are are known simply as Hua Quan 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4thLu.

The Cha version had 10 routines of varying lengths and complexity. The names of the ten forms are:

Mu Zi (Mother and Son)
Xing Shou (Parallel Hand Movement)
Fei Jiao (Flying Foot)
Sun Bin (Rising Horizon/name of famous General Sun Bin)
Quan Dong (Eastern Gate)
Mai Fu (Ambush Tiger)
Mei Fa (Plum Flower)
Lian Wuan (Continous)
Long Bai Wai (Shake Dragon's Tail)
Chuan Quan (Vertical Fist)
Many of the Cha routines are used today in various Northern long fist schools, especially the 4th Routine and5th Routine. Both versions have made a huge influence on the modern Chang Quan (long fist) practiced inChina today, which has chosen to use many of the techniques from theHui style.

By the time of the Ching Dynasty, under the reign of Emperor Qian Long (1736-1795), the Cha-Hua style became divided into three technical schools at Guanxian County and Rencheng County in Shangtung Province. The Zhang style, represented by Zhang Qi Wei from Zhangyin Village at Guanxian, is fast, agile, and more compact. The Yang style, represented by Yang Hongxiu from the southern part of Guanxian, is more upright, comfortable, and graceful in execution. The Li style, repesented by Li Enju from Jining, is more powerful, continuous, and direct.

The general characteristics of the Cha-Hua style are that its movements and techniques are graceful, easy, clear, continuous, and rhythmic in execution. Strength and force is generated abruptly and there is economical use of energy. The boxing method stresses using both the hands and feet at the same time when executing fighting movements. Continuous attacks are employed, combined with various tricky moves to evade and deceive the opponent, in order to quickly overcome the enemy.

The Origin of the Tan Toi Style
The Tan Toi or "springing leg" style is more modern in origin, said to be developed during the Ming Dynasty. (1368- 1644). Ten Routine Tan Toi is one of the most favorite martial arts enjoyed by the Hui peoples. Tan Toi was said to be developed by a Hui native of Xinjiang, in Northwest China, named Cha Shang Yir. His Moslem name was Chamir and he lived from 1568 to 1644. In the mid period of his life, the Chinese coast in Fukien and Zhejiang Provinces was besieged by Japanese pirates. Ming Dynasty rules had amassed troops to fight back these invaders. Chamir joined the army to be part of this crusade. The troops had to march on foot a long way to get to the southeast under very harsh conditions. While climbing mountains and crossing rivers, Chamir contracted a strong illness due to the coldness and wetness. He was left behind to recuperate in a mountain village in Guanxian County in Shangtung Province.

He was treated and cared for by the villagers for a few months. When he was fully recovered, being the Autumn season, he noticed that the local peasant villagers had finished their harvesting and were now practicing riding and shooting. Chamir, in wishing to repay them for the hospitality and caring they showed him, offered to teach the villagers the Tan Toi and 10 Routine Boxing that he had developed and performed for many years. The villagers welcomed his martial arts lessons and many people came to learn from Chamir. Over time, the villagers called his boxing style, Cha Quan. The boxing style originally consisted of 28 routines, which were put in alphabetical order, according to the Arabic language commonly used by the Hui. Later, the 28 routines were synthesized into the 10 Routine Tan Toi known today. The names of the Ten Routines and the original song for them are translated as follows:

Coherent Steps
Cross Pattern
Slash and Squash
Uphold Palm
Uphold Fist
Crook and Sprinkle
Flower Bending
Stamp and Thread
Lock and Stick
Flying Kick
The Original Song of the Ten Routine Spring Leg:
Handed down from the ancestors, the Ten Routine Spring Leg consists of "four work and one exertion".
Routine One teaches you coherent steps that are hard to resist.
Routine Two passes on the skill of cross that gives you the knack of springing and shooting.
Routine Three tells you how to slash and squash so that you can brave the darkness.
Routine Four enables you to block the advesary with a shooting palm.
Routine Five instructs you to prepare for an incoming ill intent.
Routine Six guides you to advance and grapple by artifice of crooking and sprinkling.
Routine Seven teaches you the flowery elbow-bending as a means of defense.
Routine Eight directs you to stamp and tread with body rotation and hands waving.
Routine Nine gives you the skill of locking and sticking with a sweeping leg of a Manadarin duck.
Routine Ten teaches you the flying kick - the key skill of spring leg.
If not following set rules, your practice is a waste of time.
Plain and simple though the skill may be, you will find it a powerful weapon after persistent training practice.
Protecting body and building up strength, it offers you many fold skills in fighting the enemy.
As the first technique since the beginning of history, the Ten Routine Spring Leg has been handed down from generation to generation.
The Monks at the nearby Shangtung Long Tam Buddhist Temple learned of the Tan Toi from the local peopleand wished to incorporate it into their fighting routines that they practiced. The Monks further developed itinto the 12 Routine Tam Toi (named after the temple). The main difference between the temple versions andthe Hui version of the style is that in the Hui version the kicks are done at waist height and higher and in thetemple versions the kicks are generally made at the knee level and lower. In comparing the original Hui 10Routine and the original 12 Shangtung Long Tam Routine styles, Routines 1 through 5 are the same, Routines6 through 8 are very different, Routines 9 and 10 are essentially similar but with definite variation intechniques, and Routines 11 and 12 are only done by the 12 Routine style. The names of the 12 Tan Toi Routines are translated as follows:

Striking Forward
Crossed Legs
Hitting and Smashing
Waving with Palm
Strikingwith One Fist & Protecting with the Other
Revolving Both Fists
Striking Forward with One Arm Swinging ni Circles
Kicking and Striking
Locking the Hands Together
Kicking Forward in Jumping Position
Striking Forward in Advance Position
Cover Body with Fists (Pi Shen Quan)
The 10 Routine Tam Toi Song:
Routine One is to hit the enemy as you hit with a whip.
Routine Two is to strike with both fists crossed.
Routine Three is to knock the enemy's head.
Routine Four is to bar the road with fists.
Routine Five is to strike and protect yourself with the arms.
Routine Six is to hit with single fists.
Routine Seven is hit with both fists.
Routine Eight is to swing your fists sideward or backward.
Routine Nine is to hold the fists together.
Routine Ten is to kick with your foot as if it is an arrow.
The 12 Routine Tam Toi Song:
Strike forward with a single fist in advance position.
Hit the enemy with both fists crossed.
Knock the enemy's head with your body turning backward.
Strike with the fists and kick the enemy with the feet.
Protect your head and hit the enemy's chest.
Strike with both fists; prostrasting legs.
Hit the enemy's ear with one fist and kick him hard.
Protect your head and groin with the fists.
Hold the fists together and separate them.
Kick your enemy with the foot as you hit him with an arrow.
Strike sideward with hook fists.
Recover the original position.
The Long Tam Monks also later developed other tam toi forms, in total they practiced the 10 Routine form,the 12 Routine form, the Two-Man Tam Toi form, and the Liu Lu Tuan Quan Tan Toi form (6 Routine ShortRange Boxing). Later still, the Shaolin Temple adopted the 10 and 12 Tam Toi styles andthen developedtheir own very different versions of the routines. Other people developed the Liu Ho Tan Toi (6 HarmoniesSpring Leg), Toi Quan (Leg Boxing), Jie Tan Toi (Suceeding Spring Leg), a 16 Routine Tan Toi, and an 18Routine Tan Toi, based on the original Hui style. Today, the Tan Toi (and Tam Toi) routines have beenadded to the curriculum of most martial arts schools.

The 12 Tan Toi version taught by the Jing Wu Association has become the most famous and widely practiced throughout the world. It is considered a prerequisite for all beginners in the Chinese martial arts and serves to lay the foundation for all the essential basic elements of one's wu shu kung fu practices. All the techniques and movements employed by the Tan Toi style can be found in all styles of long fist/ long range fighting. Thus, by mastering the Tan Toi form, one is able to master tradtional Chinese wu shu kung fu in general and is able to progress and learn many otherforms.

The Tan Toi forms build up the body due to its strenuous demands for low body height, precise movements, and forceful execution. Also, it teaches such combat skills as springing, kicking, stamping, sweeping, thrusting, grappling, punching, pushing, hooking, sticking, etc. Body mechanics are coordinated so that maximum force is issued with smooth effectiveness and efficiency. The waist is used as an axis to set the upper and lower limbs moving in coordinating movements. Relaxation is emphasized in posing correct postures, coordinating various parts of the body, exerting force smoothly, and making nimble movements. Through relaxed, smooth exertion, force can be quickly concentrated on the striking point, so that there appears a sudden springing or snap force that is produced as the movement picks up speed and then a sudden tightening of the muscles is made at the instant of force exertion.

Conclusion
Although the Hoi Moslem Chinese people are originally of foreign descent, they strove to adapt to their new homeland. In doing so, they embraced the traditional Chinese martial arts and made it part of their own culture. Eventually, their expertise in these martial arts allowed Hui martial arts masters to develop their own styles and methods of wu shu kung fu. By today's times, the Hui martial arts became an influence on traditional Chinese martial arts and their ideas for combat and routines have been assimilated into the curriculum of many Northern Long Fist schools. The Cha/Hua Quan techniques have found their way into modern Chang Quan Kung Fu and the Tan Toi routines have been made a foundation for many people's martial arts training, both in China and in the rest of the world.

Hmm
I wouldn't call real martial arts Wu Shu, that's more of a performing art term.

But though I 've never read on their contributions before I do remember reading that their martial arts were very good.

This is an old topic, I almost couldn't find it. Ok, recently I found this video here, it was called unlimited fighting, take a look and post your opinions about it. Are they nuts or trying to revive ancient martial arts?

Many, many years ago, I studied a little Shaolin and learned that Tan Toi set. ... It is a good beginner set for clumsy people like me. ... As a set for learning how to fight, I recommend people to learn Wing Chun, Choy Lee Fut or Tae Kwon Do. ...

Studying external martial arts is a good exercise.

Mastering the core essence of internal martial arts is a life-long endeavor.

I've been a martial artists for about 9 years now and I've been hearing some things. I've heard from my teachers that almost all martial arts orignate from China. A couple examples are; Shotokan Karate, Ninjitsu, Kung Fu. Can anyone help to elaborate how did it go from country to country. And can someone tell me where specifically do some come from.

well they say that all asian martial arts derive from shaolin kung fu founded by boddhimarra who travelled from india,there is indian martial arts which is wat boddhimarra knew which was a combination of yoga and fighting techniques and very similiar to shaolin kung fu.Wnen boddhimarra came to shaolin they mixed that knoledge with martial arts like sword techniques etc but just intordoduced the breathing and yoga techniques.martial arts seem to be universal, in europe they invented fencing there are probally many martial arts in history.