Greetings, I was in BeiJing last December meeting the In-laws for the first time and visited the well where the tragedy happened. The sense of loss, tragedy, and grief, was very strong there. I have heard that she had her arms and legs cut off before Cixi drowned her, but I also heard that she was simply pushed down the well. Which story is correct? The only time I can recall having felt such grief was at a few locations in the Gettysburg military park in the USA.

Cixi tortured quite a number of concubines, whom I believe Zhen Fei was one of them..

I think it was in these forums that I read she was mutilated until she looked like a armless, legless "pig"...

I thought that was Cixi's rival to the Emperor Xianfeng...

Anycase, Zhen Fei is the concubine of Cixi's nephew.

The mutilated lady is not Zhen Fei. The lady in question was one of the many consorts of Han Liu Bang, Consort Qi. Empress Lu was the one who ordered Consort Qi's limbs be hacked off and... well see the following

Empress Dowager Lü got her chance in winter 195 BC.... She then tortured Consort Qi inhumanely -- by cutting her limbs off, blinding her, and deaftening her -- and Consort Qi would eventually die from the torture. When Emperor Hui saw Consort Qi in her tortured state, he cried outloud and became ill for about a year, complaining to his mother that he felt that he could no longer govern the empire, given that he, as the emperor, could not even protect the concubine and son so loved by his father.

Source: Wikipedia
Site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Dowager_L%C3%BC

As for Zhen Fei, she was according to legend pushed down a well when the Imperial family were escaping the Allied Forces. The authenticity of this legend had been challenged many times and no one could actually ascertain that Zhen Fei was indeed pushed into the well.

Zhen Fei well
When the Allied Forces forced their way into Beijing in 1900, the favorite imperial concubine of Emperor Guangxu, Zhen Fei (Concubine Pearl), was ordered to be thrown and drowned in this well by Cixi.

Her Body was retrieved and the well dried up after Empress dowager returned to the palace from Xi'an in 1901. Consequently, it has been know as the "Zhen Fei Well".


Source: China Travel
Site: http://www.chinatravelkey.com/beijing/attr...zhenfeiwell.htm

Thankyou so much for clearing that up, Centaur!
These are such horrible and unfair deaths...

Aye. *sighs*

Some said that zhen fei committed sucide instead.....

Does anyone have the picture of that well? I seen it somewhere and the well-mouth seem small.. quite 'difficult' to jump or throw in? i dunno...

She was pushed head-down the dinner plate-size hole. Her skeletal remain was retrieved when Cixi returned to the palace. I was there in October 2004, and I did a prayer to commemorate her as a heroine, and to harmonize the site. I took some pictures of the opening of the well. I 'll post it if I can find it. (=:

Zunjing de China History Forum members,

Alright, let’s talk more regarding Concubine Zhen’s personality rather than her tragic death. How do you guys feel about her? Concubine Zhen was certainly highly intelligent and received a rather unusual education as she was well-versed in foreign languages and technologies. This was probably why she was able to win the love of Emperor Guang Xu so easily as she was totally different from other women. Even her own sister, Concubine Jin, did not have the same type of personality nor did she have nearly as much knowledge as her sister on foreign affairs.

With this in mind, I really wonder how did historians back then view her? Was she considered as a rebellious concubine by a lot of people just because she was forward thinking? Of course, she always had the love and backup of the Emperor; however, he cannot even take care of himself.

Also, I would like to speculate on some alternatives. Let’s just pretend that Empress Cixi passed away during Emperor Guang Xu’s coup, would Emperor Guang Xu have successfully reformed the whole country with Concubine Zhen as his great assistant? What if she had given birth to the Emperor’s only son, and the Emperor had passed away at a young age. Then, would Concubine Zhen, now being Empress Dowager, have contributed to the revival and stability of the Qing Dynasty in the same way Empress Xiao Zhuang did? I surmise I am just asking if whether or not Concubine Zhen would be on par with Empress Xiao Zhuang if she had also been given the same opportunities since she definitely was as talented and as virtuous.

I would appreciate any speculations or comments?

Xie Xie,

She seemed to have a light-hearted personality and pretty smart. She probably had her own ambition because she was said to be involved in Guang Xu's political dealings. She also tried to set her own people on government posts (some of them gave her bribes). She was also prettier than her sister and the empress in the photos (in my opinion) -- All of them looked pretty bad any way, but she looked OK at least.



Well, the historian probably thinks she liked money too much. She took a lot of bribes and sold government posts to unworthy people. She got a famous pearl cape from the bribes. In the records I have read that she was talked to by Guang Xu emperor and yelled at by Cixi for this matter (the taking of bribes). I learned of her through movies and TV series, so I liked her very much and felt she was a good person. Then, I found out her corruption and the actions she took when she was in the emperor's favor. I was greatly disappointed!



I doubt she would be as good as Xiao Zhuang. By her actions of taking bribes and setting unworthy people on government posts and even selling those government posts publicly, I think she could be as bad as Cixi or even worse. Cixi had experienced many harship in her youth and had some political smarts at least. Zheng Fei was quite spoiled. She might have the educations, but she did not really have the wisdom to guide the empire to a better future. Most likely, the empire would fall into worse chaos.

The violence against women here is so bad and disgusting. There is no point in committing such vicious acts.

Is the photo available in the net? If yes, can u give me the url? I'm curious to see how she looks like.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Concubine_Zhen (Zhen Fei's picture - the drowned concubine).
http://image.baidu.com/i?ct=503316480&...7408&ln=107 (Her sister's younger picture - unbearably ugly).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Concubine_Jin (Her sister's picture when she was the Imperial Dowager Concubine - a bit better).
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%9A%86%E8%...%A4%AA%E5%90%8E (Guang Xu's empress - when younger - unbearably ugly also.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Dowager_Longyu (Guang Xu's empress - when she was the Dowager Longyu - much better looking.)

I saw another picture before, and that was a group of Qing palace women standing together. I think Zhen Fei was a lot younger and a lot skinnier and cuter at the time. Her sister's look was just unbearably ugly in that picture. The above picture was supposed to be when the sister was already the Imperial Dowager Concubine and a bit older. She (the sister) had a very rounded and flat face (IMO) when she was younger. According to some palace maidens, Jin Fei had a nick name called the "Moon Cake Face". However, I couldn't find it any where on the web. I thought I just saw it recently. Oh well.

Here are some pictures of the palace women of the last two Qing Emperors:

http://club.xilu.com/rentimote/msgview-61884-38.html

The last two pictures were just palace women and not the wives or concubines of the last two Qing Emperors:

1. Jin Fei
2. LongYu Empress
3. Puyi's Empress' wedding picture
4. Puyi's Empress (same as 3)
5. Puyi's royal concubine Wen Xio (She was picked by Japanese for Puyi, I think.)
6. Puyi's royal concubine and (3rd wife) Tan Yulin (She was also picked by Japanese for Puyi, and later divorced him.)
7. A group of Palace women (I was going to use the term "palace maidens", but ... )
8. Another palace woman (maiden? ... No way! woman... )

There was one person commented on one of the above photo web site about these women. He said, "If I were the Qing Emperor, I would kill myself!" I have the same feeling after looking at the pictures of their women!!!

Wow. In a thread about atrocities perpetrated against women, I'm shocked to see that some things never change.

There's isn't a person on this forum that would look at me and see anything but a middle-aged fat chick. Or worse, an American whose perceptions of China need to be corrected by Chinese people who moved to America...for?

Nothing in my posts, nothing in my manners would erase the image... forum members would look at my picture, perhaps label me as 'unbearably ugly', and there would be an end to it.

What a sin.

Very nice assortment of photos. Thanks for posting them fireball.

My first impression of the pics was that of all the absolutely beautiful women the emperor could pick, why these women/
But then I started to compare them to other pictures that I have seen from the early days of photography.

1] All but a couple of the women were heavy. Before photography it was to be heavy was a sign of wealth.(at least in the western world it was)
2] even if these women were not heavy in real life, photography adds weight.
3] They are all stiff and uncomfortable but the one of the girl posing in a realized manner sideways on the chair.
4] I have seen very few early photos of anyone that showed their beauty.
5] The last group picture, some of the women had their mouths open which makes them look really bad.
6] The harsh lighting of the flash, is not the best lighting for anyone.
7] we have a different standard of beauty in the 21st Century.

So when we look at these pictures we should not be so harsh on the apparent lack of beauty of these women.

Sorry about my comments about the pictures. I guess my mom's harsh comments about beauties did stick with me and my brother. I could assure you my own current pictures are no better than those pictures either, and my father's looks were also "unbearably ugly to the point of scary" in my mom's and many other people’s standards including mine, but I love him anyway. When I was growing up and up to today, my mom always looked at me and said, "How could I have such an ugly daughter?" My looks and demeanors were the major weapons for my neighborhood and school bullies to pick on me because they were all better looking or at least more confident in their looks than me. My brother's first words to me after not seeing me for a couple of years recently were, "What happened to you?" Yes, my family and my environment do place a lot of weight on looks. I know it's not a good trait and do not make my friends based on looks, but sometimes that attitude do show up in me from time to time and my mom’s and my classmates’ cruel words do stuck in me also. I apologize.

I also based my comments from the Emperor Guang Xu's point of view – I associated myself with him closely when I was growing up. My brother and my nick name for my mom is the Dowager Empress Cixi, and my mom does behave the same as Cixi with her family members.

Since I was growing up with Emperor Guang Xu’s stories, I was very sympathetic to him. He actually liked two other sisters who were very, very beautiful -- and supposedly much prettier than his chosen wife and concubines. However, due to the Dowager Empress' power, he could only choose the niece of the Dowager Empress as his Empress and the other two left over sisters for his royal concubines. The Dowager Empress was afraid that the two pretty sisters would gain the Emperor’s favors and displace her niece.

The key point for Zhen Fei and Jin Fei was "left over". Guang Xu was in no mood to choose them at all. Guang Xu’s Empress, Longyu, was supposed to have a very bad posture, with a slightly crooked back, and was not able to have witty conversations like Zhen Fei or to even hold a smooth conversation when pressed. The Empress was unlike a well trained upper class woman in those days. Guang Xu had to marry her and make her his Empress because the power of her aunt!!! It was said Guang Xu did not even want to look at her properly and barely able to stay in her presence. It was a tragedy all around. She did become the Dowager Empress in her days, but she was no better than Cixi -- as corrupt and as cruel. However, without Cixi's power and skills, she was not able to cause more problems like Cixi. She did however cause many unpleasant deaths to her servants and maids.

Jin Fei was also able to become the Imperial Concubine Dowager. She was like the other royal Qing women in power. She was one of the main murderers (the four Imperial Concubine Dowagers) who had forced the suicide of Puyi's (the last Qing Emperor) mother because Puyi's childish words had insulted her royal face/pride/dignity. It was all recorded in Puyi 's autobiography. It was also said that Jin Fei was not happy with her sister and was probably one of the people who spoke badly of her to Cixi, and Jin Fei was probably not helping Zhen Fei when Cixi ordered Zhen Fei’s execution.

I dislike these two women tremendously and not because of their looks, but because of their personalities. I dislike Zhen Fei for her corrupt behaviors and her taking advantage of Guang Xu’s favors to gain money and power for herself. I dislike her a lot for her stupidity and her ambition to have probably pushed Guang Xu to act rashly and lose it all in the power struggle with Cixi. It was a tragic waste for a very good Emperor and an Emperor who probably truly loved Zhen Fei. It was also a tragedy for 19th Century China when China could have turned around in time to not have the next 100 years of wars and billions of more tragedies.

For other emperors, if they did not like their empresses or royal concubines, they could at least go for their palace maidens. However, I think Cixi was probably thinking of that from the looks of those pictures of the palace women. When they could be in the pictures like that, they must be higher level ladies-in-waiting; i.e. the women would be the ones who served the Dowager Empress, the Emperor, the Empress, and the Royal Concubines. They would be the ones who would be in front of the Emperor Guang Xu day in and day out. If you think there were no pretty women in that era in China, it would be very wrong. I have seen some pretty good photos of the women of those days. Yes, they looked nervous and had their mouths open or what not like the pictures of the palace women, but those other women were pretty in the standards of those days (19th century). Some even could be considered great beauties in these days even with their very old fashioned Chinese hair styles and dresses and demeanors. Cixi just made sure none of them would be in the palace and near the emperor at all. She did something similar with her own son, Tong Zhi, but she let a few slide by to her regrets. Therefore, with Guang Xu, Cixi was very careful because of her lessons with Tong Zhi’s beautiful Empress and at least one other beautiful royal concubine (I remember).

Cixi was very detailed when it came to her niece’s marriage and her niece’s status as the Empress. She made sure there would be no rivals for Longyu. When Zhen Fei was picked, she was about 13 or 14, and, in Chinese age, she was about 12 or 13. At that time, she would not have been fully grown, and Cixi would be basing her looks on her sister Jin Fei’s and Jin Fei was no great beauty and was very bad in speaking smoothly (she also became stuttered when pressed like the Empress). Therefore, Cixi felt safe to let Zhen Fei and Jin Fei pass the selection process. This fact was documented in many late Qing dynasty’s court officials and one lady-in-waiting’s memoirs, autobiographies, interviews, and diaries. Cixi did not know though Zhen Fei was greatly favored at home and was much wittier than her sister and had the kind of personality that would shine through even if she was not great beauty. Actually, her looks fit the more traditional Chinese standards for wives and royal women. It was said that she liked to dress up as a western woman and took photos when she was at her father’s home. Therefore, she matched Guang Xu’s love for the modern and western things perfectly.

Btw, I fought back harshly and very un-Chinese like and very untraditionally against my mother’s wishes for my choice of marriage partner, and it was precisely due to the fact that I closely associate myself to Guang Xu and would not want his tragedy to happen to me!!!

fireball: these are great photos, thnx for sharing them

You are welcome!

You could also see the paintings and photos of their husband, Guangxu Emperor, in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guangxu. He was a fairly handsome man in the old scholarly tradition -- i.e. a bit feminine looking.

Please see
http://www.chinapage.com/friend/goh/beijin...ial_palace.html
At the end, there is a picture of the well (it looks so small to me) and a placard telling the story. The photo is difficult to read.
Another picture of the same place can be seen at
http://library.thinkquest.org/C0126670/pho...zhenfeijing.jpg
Is that what you saw?

That well opening looks very small for sure! Could Zhen Fei be very skinny by that time? She was imprisoned for a while also, and Cixi was known to not letting her daughters-in-law to eat food (she starved to death her last daughter-in-law, the Empress to Tongzhi Emperor).

Maybe the eunuch just took her by her head and kept it within the water?