It seems that Mao has been much appraised in PRC's chinese history text. I've read that he has not just been described as a capable military leader, but also a political figure, poet, revolutionist...

Mao seems to vision himself as the new "Qinshihuang" by declaring PRC as a "new China" when it was founded in 1949. He called the civil war from 1945-1949 as a "Liberation" war , seeming to liberate China from years of imperialism, foreign incursion and feudalistic decadence.

No doubt, Mao's military capability was exemplified by his victory in the chinese civil war against the nationalist, in Korean war, War against India, Russia etc.. but is he a truly good political ruler?

Some scholars argued that without Mao, there would be no great leap forward, no cultural revolution and China would not have to waste 30 years of closing up its door to the outside world, plunging itself into economic stagnantation.

My question is :

1. On what merit is Mao's influence on modern Chinese history?

2. Do you think China would be better off without Mao?

3. Do you think it was necessary for China to have Mao to make China into a global power?

Nice thread, I can't believe no one replied so far.

very good analyzing General. Yes, Mao was a military genius. Way back then PLA's equipment were exteremly poor. averagely every 2 soilder share one rifle and very limited bullets. many of them got guns from the dead enemies or their fallen comrades. no aricraft, no heavy armed Vehicles, lack of food supplies... even under such condition, he still defeated japanese in many major battles and drove the nationalists out of mainland. for these feats, he worth some credits.

To your question.

1.

Mao totally destoried the tradionary Chinese culture during the culture revolution.

Mao murdered millions of Chinese patriots from oversea who willed to gave up their wealth life in the western world but chose to came back to built their motherland. They were successful merchants, engineers, scientists. doctors, professors, investors and the likes.

Mao brought up an exteremly backward, one side effect education system to the entire nation even till today.

Mao was the one who responsible for today's Chinese population, under his reign, Chinese population increased 700 millions. mostly are peasants .

He made outter mongol an indepent state, surrendered a huge part Chinese territorial to russia, and lost some islands in indo china sea.

2.

Definitely, without out Mao. without clivil war. China could've like today's taiwan and Japan, recieved America's financial and tech support, adopted America's Constitution laws and gover system. however.... our pride would die alone with it.


3. yes.

So many lives were lost during the cultural revolution. They cannot be bought back. But Mao did one thing that I think Chiang Kai Shek is incapable of, which is to deny the US or the USSR into carving China up and to maintain Chinese prestige in the field of international politics, braving a few wars to make his point (Korean War).

And plus, his son was killed in that war. I can't think of any other modern leader that did so.

I think everyone who replied so far have an extremely biased view of Mao. Mao did all those bad things, yes, but you forgot one thing... the one thing that's important: Everyone in China loves Mao!

If you go back to China around Christmas time, you will see celebration... not for Christmas, no, but for Mao's birthday (26 Dec 1893). Mao is still the ultimate figure... his portrait still watches over the country from Tiananmen Square. Yes, he had flaws, but great leaders have great flaws.

Someone mentioned something about financial support from the States... that, in my opinion, would not be what most Chinese people (and certainly not me) wanted. Mao had the courage to build China from scratch. If you want to argue on the part that China was poor and people lived miserable lives... you're only half right. Yes, the Chinese were poor, but they were not miserable. I'd say the pre-cultural revolution days was the best period in modern Chinese history. Equity DID exist, unlike today.

Mao's charisma and endless energy is still an inspiration today. His greatness in defeating foreign powers, liberating us from the Japanese, defeating the corrupted KMT, and standing up to the foreign powers after the war despite having a crappy economy is a spirit shared by many Chinese people. Our goal is not to be complacent to American needs and be another one of their lap dogs... we need to create our own path.

And please don't attribute every single little thing that went wrong from 1949 to 1976 to Mao... not everything was his fault. Yes, he made mistakes, but so did everyone.

Mao is an will be the greatest Chinese leader in recent history for a while. Sun Yat Sen, Deng Xiao Ping, and Hu Jing Tao have nothing on him.

If it weren't for Mao, China would be a "vassal" state of the US, kissing her feet to get aid. Had China sided with Russia, then China would be a backwards, third world nation, who lost all say in the world after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Or China could be a slice of terrortory belonging to the Japanese Army. Mao stopped all of that from comming true. He was the one who finally told Jiang Jie Shi to stop fighting a civil war and concentrate on the Japanese invaders. Had Communist and Nationalist forces not held up the Japanese troops for so long, Japan might have more troops to spare for other regions, preventing America from reconquering territory. Had Mao not advocated a policy where China relied on China alone, then China would just be another country that sucked up to America or Russia, a country without any real place in the world

Correction, the individual who kidnapped CKS during the Xian Incident that created a united front against Japan was Zhang Xueliang 張學良 (aka. The Young Marshall)

Right, but the communists and Zhang ganged up together to make Chiang agree to cease fire and the formation of the United Front.

but Mao is a poet.....

I've read before Mao's poems and it was indeed good..anyway, Mao was previously a librarian and his literary skills are good

1. Without Mao, there would be No Deng Xiaoping, thus, China would most likely be an inferior country on the world stage. Unless of course Chiang Kai-Shek could do for China what he did for Taiwan, but i believe this is quite unlikely.

2. As i said, without Mao there would be no Deng Xiaoping, and unless Chiang was able to do for China what he did for taiwan, i'd say despite Mao's Tyrrany, it could have been worse.

3. It was not nessecary to have Mao, but it was nessecary to have Deng, Zhongshan and Zedong are the two steps to Xiaoping.

1. The official CCP line is that Mao was 70% good and 30% bad, but i think his effect on Modern Chinese History is worse than this assessment. Although he scored some diplomatic successes, put China in the nuclear club and formed the new Chinese People's Republic, as has already been pointed out there are many negatives to his legacy. Mao destroyed Chinese culture and heritage in the Cultiral Revolution, and also obliterated the concept of family and family values through the co-operative and commune system. The deaths of millions of people also lie firmly on Mao's shoulders- it is hard to see merit in the legacy of someone who drove millions to suicide, initiated a policy that led to a widespread and disastrous famine e.t.c...

2. I am not sure China would be better off without Mao. I feel Mao was necessary for China to cast off the chains of dynastic rule and embrace people's governance- without Mao i think that the PRC would not have been established in 1949, or maybe would not have lasted after its founding. If this were the case, China would be alot worse off than it is now. China would certainly be better off without Mao's policies from 1966 onwards however.

3. Yes- as i have already mentioned, Mao's period in power saw China join the nuclear club without the development of its A-Bomb in the later 1950s, and Mao also scored diplomatic successes like the visit of President Nixon that were the first sign that China was on the rise to becoming a global superpower.

He did so much damage culturally that no matter what he did diplomatically,militarily,etc... I can only see China being better off without his stupid Cultural Revolution and Great Leap Forward. By putting the common peasant on a pedestal, he probably set China's ethics,family values,etc a few hundred years back. You can still feel it even today..ex - when I went to China(Shanghai), I was disgusted with the way that everyone just spit all over the street, cut in line and didnt queue up, urinated in public(more rarely), and what put me off the most was when some guy got in the taxi that I had called over. He just cut right in front of me and jumped in. Not to mention that he killed millions of his own people and economically set China a hundred years back with his stupid Great Leap Forward. Though we will never know, I tend to think that if it werent for now, China would already be a superpower- like Japan. The economy would probably be somewhat like Taiwan but on a much larger and more epic scale. Atleast in Taiwan, I dont have to watch where I step in fear of stepping on someones mucus or try to dodge some spit that some guy in front of non-chalantly spits out.

I see what you're saying here- why do you think that China would be a superpower now if Mao had never been involved? Because i think the opposite- i feel that China would be far from a superpower if it weren't for Mao. What's the basis for your view?

Well, Sun Yat Sen did have a whole plan laid out for China regarding how it should modernize it self but after he died it was just never carried out. CKS was rather incompetent so I should rephrase my statement. I think that if China had followed Sun's plan to modernization and if they had a leader capable of doing it they would be a superpower now. Not to mention that China would have maintained so much more of its traditional culture and heritage. It was CKS that ordered for all those irreplaceable cultural artifacts to be brought across China to Taiwan in order to save it from being destroyed by the Communist regime as well as Japanese bombing during the war. If you have ever been to the museum and saw all the stuff there you would definitely get a feeling of regret - regretting how much was destroyed by Mao's regime during the Cultural Revolution..but also relief - relief that atleast this much has been saved.

Fair enough, but would you rather have had 1) a China developing without Mao but also without a leader capable of following Sun Yat Sen's plan or 2) A China developing with Mao. Which one?

mmm, thats a hard one. Though im not quite sure what would happen economically, I do believe that alot more traditional Chinese culture would be preserved so I believe I would choose the 1st one for cultures sake. I cant help but choose it since their are few things in the world that piss me off more than the Cultural Revolution. Regarding this issue of culture, I have always thought what China would be like if the Ming (and not the Qing) was the last dynasty. Would that modern China be more like modern Korea or what do you think?

You obviously value tradition above advancement- i believe that although Mao destroyed alot of China's cultural heritage, he laid the foundations for what China is like today, and i would always prefer to see a strong leader at the helm that have a country with nobody to lead it, whether or not he/she is a 'great' leader, as countries tend to develop better under effective leadership. This was the case with Mao and China.

Cannot help but respond.
Chen06, I could not agree more on the sadness of the Cultural Revolution and the irreparable losses it caused.

MattW, strange that you should make a valuing tradition/valuing advancement dichotomy (I think that's the right word, hope I'm understood). Why should it be a choice? There is always friction between old and new, but some societies have proved rather good at preserving their cultural heritage and becoming very modern at the same time (Japan, for example).
And some countries have managed to develop rather well without a strong leader (including your own, I think, if you are from Britain). Again Japan, it has had nothing but unstable governments for decades, but seems to do ok.

Just as an aside, just curious, would you have liked to live yourself under the great leadership of Mao?

I agree with you and Chen06 on the sadness of the CR.

The example of England/Britain developing without a strong leader is the exception to the rule i believe- maybe i should have been more specific in saying that in states/countries where an entirely new style of government is introduced a strong leader is often required to make things work. The French republic needed Robespierre, in fact thinking about it the English Republic needed Cromwell, and China needed Mao.

I believe it is an ineveitability that some tradition will be sacraficed for advancement [take the Reformation for example]- it obviously depends on your view of whether the sacrafice is worth it in forming a judgement about Mao's influence on modern chinese history.

On your last aside q., if i could be transported back now i would jump at the chance, as it is historically very intriguing to see what china was like in Mao's period in power on a personal individual level. But i'm not sure i would enjoy my experience. But i'd much rather have lived in a china run by Mao than a China an imperial government where warlordism was rife. Does that help you?

It's telling that you suggest you wouldn't have enjoyed the experience of living under Mao. I think your instinct is correct. I doubt Robespierre and Cromwell would have been much fun either.
Is building some kind of radically different new system in itself a worthy thing? Most such radical attempts have been proved shortlived and subsequently been abandoned or toned down.

Mao was one facet of the grand communist experiment of the 20th century. I have a lot of understanding for how communism originated and what initially attracted people to it, and they did not have the benefit of hindsight of course to know what consequences it would have. But wherever it was implemented this experiment brought far more damage than good. It was a huge and tragic aberration of countless deaths and immense destruction. Whether it was Mao, Soviet communism, Pol Pot, the Kims in Korea, they could all said to be introduing an entirely new style of government, but at what cost?

All of these experiments have been abandoned (in substance but not in name, in the case of China), failed, or are in the process of failing.

I have absolutely no love of the warlords at all, but I think if I were really forced to go back in time, I'd go there rather than to Mao. I wouldn't want to experience any more of the kind of 'new government' system 'great leaders' produce than the little I have tasted. It was enough.

I'd say it is a worthy thing- i means that mistakes are not repated in the future, and some attempts at imposing new systems are crucial in the development of a country's system of government. For example, not a Chinese example, but the Cromwell republican period in england was a necessary step on the road to British parliamentary democracy. I doubt the mistakes of the Mao era will ever be repeated in China's future history. What do you think?

Hi all, history has shown that no one learns from the mistakes of their ancestors or predecessors. Time seems to forget easily and quickly. Thats why peoples don't get on and there are endless cycles of wars and other man made calamities. And also witness the recent economic troubles.

Given the right or should I say wrong circumstances, mistakes will repeat themselves but will be dressed in different clothing. Same same but different.

Communism was supposed to be the saviour of the poor from the burdens of the feudal system and early industrial exploitation. In a way it was successfull as it forced capitalism and democracy to develop to cater to the aspirations of the masses while previously they were the domain of the rich and privileged

Communism is not so much a failure but an obsolete political doctrine in most cases such as in China. No doubt some day with increasing populations, diminishing resources and environmental concerns and its inability to keep itself in check capitalism as we understand it now will also become obsolete.

I believe there are always latent forces of darkness waiting around to take advantage of when chaos returns. The next ones to emerge and take control could be a toxic mix of Judeo/Christian and Muslim fundamentalists.

I've never thought of Communism's effect on Capitalism like that before- good point. Communism hasn't failed, but as you is out of date with the modern world, and energy-dependant capitlaism is going the same way. Maybe a new ideology will emerge to fill this growing void... History will in many cases ineveitably repeat itself, but i doubt anything like the Cultural Revolution will happen in Communist China again, now that the lesson has been learned...

Thanks MattW, perhaps this something that can be debated more in depth..


As to the CR, I tend to think it has more in common with the great religious wars and purges that have happened all to frequently throughout history. I would agree it may never again happen the same way but if anything similar did happen it would be for other reasons.

For a recent example, I believe the Taiping if successful in conquering China could easily have turned China upside down in much the same way.


What has also fascinated me about the CR is how it seemed to be a parallel happening to the Counter Culture Movement which manifested itself simultaniously in the west at the same time. Though the Counter Culture was far more tame and generally peacefull it did have profound effect on debunking and scorning old values and changed society's thinking and its foot soldiers were also rampaging youth. And it did have its share of lunacy too.

The CR has to be one pf the most fascinating movements in history, and i think it is almost unparalleled, in terms of its course, motives e.t.c. It has similarities with other movements, but the way in which the youth of China rose up against the 'old guard' and culture is almost unique.

I agree the CR period is one of the most fascinating event in world history and should be discussed more robustly on this forum. I myself collect artifacts from the period.
But at the same time I believe it is still little understood. I myself struggle at times to try to understand what exactly happened and where. It is hard to gauge the full impact from reading books.. Reading about it seems like reading about ones bad dream.

There also seems to be collective amnesia and hidden guilt from the government and most people who were directly involved and in particular those who held some power or were enthusiastic supporters. A lot of what has happened appears lost in the fog of history.

There is no shortage of information around from those who suffered but little from those who punished.

I have read accounts and seen documentaries from some who participated with gusto and most are quite apologetic. Most however the state ignorance or youth as an excuse for their actions. But surely there were older ones who knew exactly what they were doing.

I have spoken myself to a person who was involved and aged 17 at the time. His recollections were that he did not understand much of what and why it happened but it was the thing to do at the time. Travelling the country with no responsibilities and freedom, meeting girls and lots of excitement. He did admit he was enthusiastic about smashing things. He however denied using any physical violence on others. He likened it to being part of a pack of wild dogs. Of course now he is quite contrite and cringes at the stupidity of it all.

I can understand some of this from my own family history. My fathers family were heavily involved with the Italian Fascist movement and paid the price after the war. None of my older relatives are willing to discuss what happened and I only pick up little snippets of information from different relatives on rare occasions. But I don't know what really happened, or understand it.


It would be good to hear on this forum from some of those that were directly involved. I imagine there would be a few members with first hand experiences.


Also can posters recommend any good reading on the period?

The mark of a good book on the CR is one where the reader can gauge a real feeling of the turmoil that was present in that period. I don't think we will ever gain a complete understanding of the movement- as you say, alot of the information seems 'lost in the fog of history'- it is a period that most prefer to forget about that talk about- some of this must be down to guilt/shame/embarassment, some down to the culture of secrecy surrounding much of Mao's period in power.

I know of several really good books about the CR. Roderick Macfarquhar/Michael Schoenhals' 'Mao's Last Revolution' is a brilliant book that captures much of the political maneovering of the era, and the effect of the CR on ordinary people. Macfarquahr has also written a 3 volume epic entitles 'The Origins of the Cultural Revolution'- a great book for understanding the basis of the movement, though it is very long. Stanley Karnow's 'Mao and China' is an excellent narrative of the period, with detailed information on the factional conflicts that took place across China. Finally, 'Red Color News Soldier' by Li Zhensheng gives the perspective of an ordinary Chinese civilian on the CR, through dozens of revealing photos and some useful explanation. Hope this is helpful.