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China History Forum, Chinese History Forum > Chinese History By Dynasty Period > Qing
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Subotai
QUOTE(赵丰年 @ Aug 26 2006, 11:28 AM) [snapback]4842070[/snapback]
However, the imerial family is a mixer of Manchu and Mongols. In the Qing dynasty the imperial family only married with Manchu and Mongols, but never marry with Han, in order to keep the purity of their super blood. So people in the above pictures are not alwyas like "pure" original Manchu although they have no blood from the Han ethnic group. I think it is the same applied for the noble family in the Manchu regime.

Correct me if im wrong, isnt that a kind of racism towards the Han ethnic people?
赵丰年
QUOTE(Subotai @ Aug 28 2006, 04:23 AM) [snapback]4842643[/snapback]
Correct me if im wrong, isnt that a kind of racism towards the Han ethnic people?

Considering ethnic genocide of at least tens of millions Han Chinese, (more than 800,000 in a single city), this is really a minor side of their racism. In Qing dynasty, the Manchu rulers publically claimed all Han-Chinese were their slaves.
RICECAKE
Racism was two-way traffic in those days,Han Chinese generally regarded Nomadic hordes as " barbaric " and wouldn't comsidered marriage with them either.

Nurhaci had lifetime obsessed wavering hatred through out his reign toward Han Chinese,who he blamed the death of his father and grandfather executed by Ming Court.

His son Qing Tai-Zhu implemented some changes to minimized ethnic conflicts/institutionalized bigotry toward ethnic Han as soon as he took the helm.

Replaying victimhood through history and self-victimization provenly damaged self-esteem among modern day Chinese.

Manchu Court RIGHTLY imposed " pigtail " on conquered population for it was their hair-wear not what some idiotic Chinese propagated as racism against ethnic Hans or brainwashed Hans forgetting their NON-Manchu roots.
赵丰年
QUOTE(RICECAKE @ Aug 28 2006, 05:55 AM) [snapback]4842650[/snapback]
Racism was two-way traffic in those days,Han Chinese generally regarded Nomadic hordes as " barbaric " and wouldn't comsidered marriage with them either.


Your definition of racism must be very different from some others. To my knowledge, racism is to despice certain group of people because of their blood. Han Chinese called the nomadic hordes because their regular behavior of constant and endless murding, plundering other civilized area and kidnaping and raping millions of women and also evalued these kinds behavior as glory. Records from different countries are consistent in their crimes, such as riper open pregnent women to kill the unborn baby, raping women in front of the huasbands and sons than killing the latter in front of women. In the record about what the Manchu army did in YangZhou city, when the Manchus sodliers saw women holding small baby, the first thing they did is to throw the small baby to the ground to death, they forced the mother to step on the brains liquid of their own baby and rape them in front of the childrend's dead body. I have problem to understand why Han Chinese victims are not allowed to regard this group criminals as barbarian with heart of animals, and if they did not obey this prohibation, they are racists. There are also other country where people do not consider to marry criminals before they changed their value system. But in the most part of world, this kind of despising are usually not sorted as racism, because it is not despice a certain group of people according to their blood, but only according to their behaviors.

Most Chinese, as many other people in this world, believe it is possible for different group of people live together in peace and hamony. They are against racism and chauvinism because it is not helpful to live paecfully. But there are other kind of people in this world, the Nurhach family and their supporters for example, who think enslaving others is the only way they can live better, They changed definition for racism, if any Chinese are reluctant to be their slaves, it is racism or "Han-Chauvinsm". They are against "racism" not for live peacfully with others, but to justify their enslaving action against Chinese. I guess you are one of them, am I wrong?

Unlike the Manchu-Qing regime, Han Chinese did not organize any action to plunder or enslave Jurgens and they just dislike the other side murdering and plundering them. In any part of this earth, it is a very natural reactions from the victims. You do not think the innocent Han victms and their descendants deserve any human right of blaming the murder because you are a racist toward Han Chinese youself.

QUOTE

Nurhaci had lifetime obsessed wavering hatred through out his reign toward Han Chinese,who he blamed the death of his father and grandfather executed by Ming Court.
This is simply a lie. Nurhaci's grandfather and and father were not executed by the Ming Court. They were the officers of Ming govement. When they tried to pursuade some Jurgen rebeling force to surrender, the Ming army attacked the rebelling force and kill them accidently. Nurhaci had no problem to accept apology with rich and generous commpensation and serve in the Ming court to accept weapon and wealth from Ming court, until he found he can plunder Han-Chinese area without problem. His so called hatred is just an excuse to attract others to plunder China. Without these so called hatres, these kind of criminals would alway do the same. Korean has not kill any of his family member but they never spare any korean when they raid them. In a single military action, they kidnap 20,000 korean women. They idid those kind of crimes not because korean or Han-Chinese oppress them, but becasue they did not produce food and textile themself, and they found killing plundering Han and Koreans was the quickest way to become rich.

QUOTE

His son Qing Tai-Zhu implemented some changes to minimized ethnic conflicts/institutionalized bigotry toward ethnic Han as soon as he took the helm.

The way they "minimized ethnic conflicts/institutionalized bigotry toward ethnic Han" is to raiding Han Chinese and Korean area, killing millions of innocent Han-Chinese. When you try to praise this kind of murder, you certainly think the human life of those victims worth nothing, right?

QUOTE

Replaying victimhood through history and self-victimization provenly damaged self-esteem among modern day Chinese.
The jews victims can not expcet any esteem and respect from Nazi murders.and supporters. Han-Chinese can not seek any esteem from the manchu-qing murders and their supporters. This is simply because Nazi and Manchu-Qing supporters never consider human life of their victims worth anything.

With thinking of Han Chinese deserve nothing but only being slave of the Manchu regime, no matter what chinese do, how can you give any esteem to Chinese anyway? Stoping blaming the murder in order to get esteem from you does sound very feasible, right? At least for me, it is far more important for Chinese to avoid being harmed by a malicious group or organization than paying great effort for getting esteem from them.

by the way, we did not replay any victimhood through history. we were willing to live with the dessident of the murders with equal right. We already forive the and amlost forget the crimes in the history until we were reminded by this kind of picture, TV program and movie almost every week played in China, in which they publiclally glorify the murders and insult the victims and their descendants.



I think it is really stupid to make this kind of picture, because the manchu group in history get their text by plundering Han Chinese. and they were not so easy to get such expensive silk made clothes. It is even more stupid that, despite their own ancesstors including the women victims who were kidnapped and rapred by the murders, they still fell so pround about the crimes the criminal did. They despice Han Chinese by completely forgotten it was Han Chinese who produce and provide all the nesssarry resouce to them during the whole Qing period. Even more, they have forgotten that Han Chinese generously forgave that they have evil ancesstors who committed terrible crimes like animals, and have willing to live with them peacefully with equal right. With all these mercy, they are still malicous to Han Chinese and try all the way to insult and hurt them. They even publically called them idoit, claim there is nothing wrong to kill tens of millions Chinese after they did not receive any retaliation from the latter.

QUOTE

Manchu Court RIGHTLY imposed " pigtail " on conquered population for it was their hair-wear not what some idiotic Chinese propagated as racism against ethnic Hans or brainwashed Hans forgetting their NON-Manchu roots.


Well, different people have different standard about right or wrong.; Nazi supporter think Hilter rightly impose the ethinic cleaning towards the Jew victims, because they did not care about human life the millions jew victims, exactly as you did not care about the human life of the tens of millions Han Chinese who were murdered by the Manchu court.

You think the personal favorit habbits of the Manchu rulers is more important than the human life millions of the Chinese who did not want to wear in the same way with them, so you think there is nothing wrong to kill the latter. I guess if you have the opportunity, you will kill us like that again, because you never think we are worth anything, right? Aparently, you evalue one group of people higher than Han Chinese, isn't this a typical racisms?

When people in this world want to live peacefully together, they think it is right that innocent people should not be killed. However, there are other types of human being in this world, their only interests are to enslaving others. They are always reluctant to produce and construct. Any accient inventions, technology such as silk, tea, china or art have nothing to do with the Jurgen/Manchu regime. They were so busy to pluder and killing others so that they even have not have their own written system without other's help. In the letter Huang taiji to the Ming court, he threaten to raid if Ming do not give them enough food and textile.

I guess they must think all Han Chinese are idoits and easy to be enslaved again. If one day, Han chinese finally find how smart this group, I am not sure the results is what they really want to get. Might be I am wrong, we will see.
Juchechosunmanse
QUOTE
So people in the above pictures are not alwyas like "pure" original Manchu although they have no blood from the Han ethnic group. I think it is the same applied for the noble family in the Manchu regime.


No Han blood? How about the Han Bannermen?
RICECAKE
QUOTE(赵丰年 @ Aug 28 2006, 03:35 PM) [snapback]4842814[/snapback]
I guess they must think all Han Chinese are idiots and easy to be enslaved again.


Modern day Chinese are enslaved by past history victimhood propagated by Chinese mass media outlets and some individuals over-exaggerately recyle victimization crap.

The big question is how Chinese can leap from this grave that buried their backward live senseless souls.
lifezard
QUOTE(Juchechosunmanse @ Aug 29 2006, 08:28 AM) [snapback]4842860[/snapback]
No Han blood? How about the Han Bannermen?


i think no Han Bannerwomen actually became the Emperor s official wife (i.e. Empress (west or east), but then, the emperor was free to take in concubines and quite a number were actually Han
redstick426
QUOTE(RICECAKE @ Aug 28 2006, 04:55 AM) [snapback]4842650[/snapback]
Manchu Court RIGHTLY imposed " pigtail " on conquered population for it was their hair-wear not what some idiotic Chinese propagated as racism against ethnic Hans or brainwashed Hans forgetting their NON-Manchu roots.



Sorry, I dont get what you saying by "rightly". So you think it is okay if a burglar breaks into your home, take your home away , strip off all your clothes and force you to dress like him, shave off your hair and threaten you stay that way or else you will be killed?
redstick426
QUOTE(RICECAKE @ Aug 28 2006, 07:08 PM) [snapback]4842894[/snapback]
Modern day Chinese are enslaved by past history victimhood propagated by Chinese mass media outlets and some individuals over-exaggerately recyle victimization crap.

The BIG QUESTION is how Chinamen can leap from this grave that buried their backward live senseless souls.



Contrary to what you think, recently the PRC goverment has been doing nothing but commending the Manchus Dynasty (as you can see in all the TV drama produced by CCTV. 90% of them are pig-tail related)and glossing over the atrocity perpetruated by the Manchus.

The other thing why you belittle your own people in derogatory term "Chinamen"?


But I do agree this thread should just focus on the look of Manchus. If we want to discuss about Manchus History, we should go to the Qing section.
RICECAKE
QUOTE(redstick426 @ Aug 29 2006, 03:27 AM) [snapback]4843030[/snapback]
Contrary to what you think, recently the PRC goverment has been doing nothing but commending the Manchus Dynasty (as you can see in all the TV drama produced by CCTV. 90% of them are pig-tail related)and glossing over the atrocity perpetruated by the Manchus.


Exactly what I meant all along,past history victimization propagated by Chinese mass media outlets.

Qing Dynasty ended nearly 100 years,get a grip it's time to move on and make China a modern respectable nation instead of haunting by the past.Japanese,Westerners,and now the S Koreans make laughs at Chinese for living in the past.

Funny thing is,there are many Han Chinese have a few drops of Manchu blood.
赵丰年
QUOTE(RICECAKE @ Aug 29 2006, 03:49 AM) [snapback]4843044[/snapback]
Exactly what I meant all along,past history victimization propagated by Chinese mass media outlets.

Qing Dynasty ended nearly 100 years,get a grip it's time to move on and make China a modern respectable nation instead of haunting by the past.Japanese,Westerners,and now the S Koreans make laughs at Chinese for living in the past.

You really sound like a slave master who can command what chinese should propagate and what should not. we want to live in a happy life and of course can forgive and forget if no one want to feel pround to kill our ancestor and want to do the same thing again. but we do not do this for obeying the commandment from the supporter of the murder.

We did not "propagate" so much before we find any one who feel so proud for killling our ancestor and despice the Han blood as "coarseness blood of sheeps".

QUOTE
Funny thing is,there are many Han Chinese have a few drops of Manchu blood.

what is so funny then? If what you said is true, the murders are our own ancestor, why can not we blame our own ancestor, what is the hell have any thing to do with you if we blame those criminal to avoid it happen again?

When you have chance to kill us again, it does not impact if you find we have blood of Manchu, right?
WangEnlai
When you talk about Manchus do you mean Manchus in Pre-Qing to Qing or do you mean modern day Manchurians/Jurchens?

I don't think current day manchurians are blood thirsty, they are as chinese as Han.
赵丰年
QUOTE(Juchechosunmanse @ Aug 28 2006, 06:28 PM) [snapback]4842860[/snapback]
No Han blood? How about the Han Bannermen?


In bannermen (旗人) there were an signifcant proportaion of Han Chinese, actulally koreans too . Although they had privillage over the nomal Han Chinese, they were despiced inside their own club for their blood and almost never had changce to get into the royal family of Qing. Those in the above pitures above were the most important princess. Even in the royal family, those who have han blood were despiced and could not get the position high enough to enter those photographs.
赵丰年
QUOTE(RICECAKE @ Aug 28 2006, 08:08 PM) [snapback]4842894[/snapback]
Modern day Chinese are enslaved by past history victimhood propagated by Chinese mass media outlets and some individuals over-exaggerately recyle victimization crap.

Of course, you think all the Chinese are idiots and they should ask you what is enslaving and what is not. If you have the power of Manchu-Qing regime you can run an other cycle of banning books and force Chinese to think as what you do. Unfortunately Manchu-Qing collaps 100 years ago and Chinese can do what they like themselves now. What's a pity.

QUOTE(RICECAKE @ Aug 28 2006, 08:08 PM) [snapback]4842894[/snapback]
The big question is how Chinese can leap from this grave that buried their backward live senseless souls.

Don't worry that much, Chinese can lived very well before the Manchu-Qing's came as slave masters. They can certainly live well without the them in future.
赵丰年
QUOTE(WangEnlai @ Aug 29 2006, 06:35 AM) [snapback]4843090[/snapback]
When you talk about Manchus do you mean Manchus in Pre-Qing to Qing or do you mean modern day Manchurians/Jurchens?

I don't think current day manchurians are blood thirsty, they are as chinese as Han.

There was no such a name Manchu in Pre-Qing. The name of Manchu was formed as a politcal orgianziation or military allien for plundering China. It comes from various sources. The predoment conponent is Jurgen, but it also include signifcant proportion of Mongol, Han and Koreans.

I do not mind what blood manchurians that much. What I mind is whether they regard other Chinese as their conparturs or their hunting object. When one see they present the picture of murders as hero above, talking about super noble blood of the murder and selling books to prove coarseness Han Chinese blood in China, apparrently, the conclusion is that someone still regards other Chinese as their hunting object and is planning another hunting party.
赵丰年
QUOTE
I don't think current day manchurians are blood thirsty, they are as chinese as Han.

I had taken the same opinion with you until I found this of picture post everywhere.



[GZ Delete: Nazi propaganda material]
wlee15
QUOTE(赵丰年 @ Aug 29 2006, 11:41 AM) [snapback]4843212[/snapback]
I had taken the same opinion with you until I found this of picture post everywhere.



A man holding a arrowless bow is significantly less distrubing than say this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4728025.stm
Juchechosunmanse
QUOTE(赵丰年 @ Aug 29 2006, 06:43 AM) [snapback]4843105[/snapback]
In bannermen (旗人) there were an signifcant proportaion of Han Chinese, actulally koreans too . Although they had privillage over the nomal Han Chinese, they were despiced inside their own club for their blood and almost never had changce to get into the royal family of Qing. Those in the above pitures above were the most important princess. Even in the royal family, those who have han blood were despiced and could not get the position high enough to enter those photographs.



But didn't they have offsprings too?
Juchechosunmanse
Zhao Fengnian, I hear what you are saying, the Manchus of the 17th century did great injustice to the Han people and caused a lot of harm, it is a fact, no question about it. However, today most of them are as Chinese as the Han Chinese, it is also a fact.
Sephodwyrm
Zhao Fengnian, here is something that will ease your heart.

Many people call themselves Manchus to get welfare benefits from the PRC. But the criteria wasn't really strict. If you belonged to a banner you are technically Manchu (according to what I have heard). But really, a lot of them were from Han banners, and a lot of them married to Han Chinese men anyway...

The woman doesn't look too bad, as a side note. And no pigtails on the men either.
Yun
QUOTE
When one see they present the picture of murders as hero above, talking about super noble blood of the murder and selling books to prove coarseness Han Chinese blood in China, apparrently, the conclusion is that someone still regards other Chinese as their hunting object and is planning another hunting party.


So you believe that 'Jiang Rong', the author of Wolf Totem, is a Manchu? No one actually knows who he is (except his own family and friends) because he has carefully remained anonymous except for his pen name.
Zuo Zongtang
QUOTE(赵丰年 @ Aug 29 2006, 01:41 PM) [snapback]4843212[/snapback]
I had taken the same opinion with you until I found this of picture post everywhere.






Oh man, so racist there!

Watch your nationalism. Its bound to get you banned if you don't watch your step.
galvatron prime
i think do the ming and han chinese discriminate the nuzchen or manchu people during they ruling day? i personally think they surely have althought history record din't not show i think nurhachi father ,uncle and his grandfather was excecuted by ming empreror that the reason he may hate the han people ,remember not all han are good and all manchu was bad ,manchu are a friendly people, not long ago even the chinese in malaysia beat the indonesia maid and tourture them ,remember all people are good and please hate nobody.
RICECAKE
QUOTE(赵丰年 @ Aug 29 2006, 07:43 AM) [snapback]4843105[/snapback]
Han Chinese, they were despiced inside their own club for their blood and almost never had changce to get into the royal family of Qing. Those in the above pitures above were the most important princess. Even in the royal family, those who have han blood were despiced and could not get the position high enough to enter those photographs.


Do you know ancient Chinese dynasties of Han ancestry also despised non-Han blood,those royal families couldn't have allowed non-Han as Empress either ?

Do you know there were recorded Han concubines in Manchu Royal Court,with at least one reigned Manchu Emperor's birth mother was from a Han Banner family ?

Do you know Chinese dynasties of Han ancestry also slaughtered millions and enslaved non-Han indigenous tribes in conquered lands ?

Name book sources and reliable reports for all the anti-Manchu rantings in this thread ?
RICECAKE
QUOTE(Juchechosunmanse @ Aug 29 2006, 05:13 PM) [snapback]4843247[/snapback]
today most of them are as Chinese as the Han Chinese, it is also a fact.


That's right like the nomadic Xian-Bei and all others conquered China in various times,their descendants became today's Han Chinese.
赵丰年
QUOTE(Juchechosunmanse @ Aug 29 2006, 04:13 PM) [snapback]4843247[/snapback]
Zhao Fengnian, I hear what you are saying, the Manchus of the 17th century did great injustice to the Han people and caused a lot of harm, it is a fact, no question about it. However, today most of them are as Chinese as the Han Chinese, it is also a fact.


I agree to your idea that "today most of them are as Chinese as the Han Chinese, it is also a fact.
". Did you I say anything against what you said above?

However, the poeple who made this pictures did not belong to most of them.


They feel happy and pround that their ancestors killed so many Chinese. They do not do it now because they do not have the chance, not because they do not want to do so. They despise the value of human life of Chinese poeple. In we have gentalmen above who clearly state there is nothing wrong to kill Chinese people.

If it is just one or two person who think this way, it is OK, however, It is very common today to that killing Han Chinese has nothing wrong. we see this kind of ideology everywhere in China now. This idea even accepted by Western Scholar in histrians in Singapore. Considering there are tens of millions have kind killed by the same group of people, we han chinese certainly have reason to feel unsafe.
General_Zhaoyun
QUOTE(赵丰年 @ Aug 28 2006, 07:36 PM) [snapback]4842648[/snapback]
Considering ethnic genocide of at least tens of millions Han Chinese, (more than 800,000 in a single city), this is really a minor side of their racism. In Qing dynasty, the Manchu rulers publically claimed all Han-Chinese were their slaves.


I have never heard of "manchu rulers publically claimed all Han-chinese as their slaves".

Can you show me the source or any imperial documental proofs about this?
赵丰年
QUOTE(General_Zhaoyun @ Aug 30 2006, 01:41 AM) [snapback]4843414[/snapback]
I have never heard of "manchu rulers publically claimed all Han-chinese as their slaves".

Can you show me the source or any imperial documental proofs about this?

You never heard "宁予友邦、不予家奴"?It is so famous statement from the Super Queen CiXi (慈禧太后). You don't suspect I made up this statement do you?

I will take some written law from Qing dynasty later to show how they treat original Chinese as slaves.
General_Zhaoyun
QUOTE(赵丰年 @ Aug 30 2006, 03:53 PM) [snapback]4843416[/snapback]
You never heard "宁予友邦、不予家奴"?


That phrase doesn't refer "han people 汉人" as as "family slaves 家奴". Show me the entire text that refers han people as 'family slaves'. I get the impression that "family slaves" include all chinese (including Cixi's manchu servants as well)
General_Zhaoyun
QUOTE(赵丰年 @ Aug 30 2006, 02:37 PM) [snapback]4843379[/snapback]
They feel happy and pround that their ancestors killed so many Chinese. They do not do it now because they do not have the chance, not because they do not want to do so. They despise the value of human life of Chinese poeple. In we have gentalmen above who clearly state there is nothing wrong to kill Chinese people.


That is a verbal attack against Manchu, and if I were to put it, a racist one. I'm tempted to increase your warning if you continue your hatred post against Manchu.

It may very well be Manchu's invasion of China that resulted in millions of chinese being killed during the war. But that is history. Today, the manchu descendents are innocent, even though their ancestors had committed war-atrocities. So, what has this got to do with your contempt for manchu?

Aren't Manchurian chinese today as chinese today's Han? Don't you consider Manchu as chinese?

QUOTE
If it is just one or two person who think this way, it is OK, however, It is very common today to that killing Han Chinese has nothing wrong. we see this kind of ideology everywhere in China now. This idea even accepted by Western Scholar in histrians in Singapore. Considering there are tens of millions have kind killed by the same group of people, we han chinese certainly have reason to feel unsafe.


I agree that the "killing of han chinese" being a historical facts need to be recognized in the history arena, but personally, I have never come across a historical writing that says " killing Han Chinese has nothing wrong". It's just merely not being mentioned. It's only the han-chauvanist historians that propagandized on the slogan that " killing Han Chinese has nothing wrong" that is only appearing on the internet.
赵丰年
QUOTE

Manchu Court RIGHTLY imposed " pigtail " on conquered population for it was their hair-wear not what some idiotic Chinese propagated as racism against ethnic Hans or brainwashed Hans forgetting their NON-Manchu roots.
Nelson Mandela became a nationalist because the black people was discrminate in south africa, we become nationalists for Han-Chinese is discriminate in China today. So I guess you ban Mandela' speech here too or you just applied your discrimination against Han Chinese?

QUOTE(Zuo Zongtang @ Aug 29 2006, 08:06 PM) [snapback]4843295[/snapback]


Watch your nationalism. Its bound to get you banned if you don't watch your step.


It is impressive to find you support those nationlists who celabrating killing Han Chinese and oppress the reaction from the victims side? It is not allowed in CHF to talk about the crime which made more victims than Nazi in history, is it?

Nazi like authority always ban the speech they don't like, perhaps so is CHF? Banning some one is the only to protect lies when there is no any other method to denounce refute the true.


QUOTE
Oh man, so racist there!


hmmmmm.....if the guy made that picture for show how great they are by killing tens of millions of vicitms and celebrate it as in the following report, they are of course rasists. after we find the celebration, we found to have to become nationalist to protect ourselves. If Jews found German celebrate Nazi killing them, they will have stronger reactions.


今年是甲申360年祭。沈阳市委书记张行湘在沈阳市思想宣传工作会议上说,今年是清入关360周年,沈阳“一宫两陵”申报世界文化遗产也将在今年揭晓。沈阳将利用这一契机,做大做强“清文化” 品牌,举办十大主体活动,加快建设全国一流文化名城步伐。通过一系列活动,真正把沈阳文化内涵挖掘出来,提高整个城市的文明程度(沈阳晚报讯1月15日载,记者李明欣)。


内容丰富多采,规模气势宏大的清文化节将于2004年8月26日隆重开幕。


清文化节十大主体活动包括:清文化节开幕式、“一宫两陵”申办世界文化遗产成功后的纪念会、国际清史讨论会、满族同胞寻根游、筹拍电视连续剧《紫气东来》、拍摄清文化专题片、筹建清文化专题博物馆、进一步改造清代一条街、兴建清文化典型题材的城市雕塑、成立清文化研究中心等。


由沈阳清文化节组委会、沈阳电视台与中央电视台共同拍摄的大型清文化专题片《紫气东来》5月20日开拍,计划在8月初完成,于沈阳清文化节期间在两台播出;“紫气东来”清文化邮品6月10日起开始预订;将历时一个月的沈阳首届满族民俗节5月29日拉开帷幕;暗含着“紫气东来”寓意的清文化节节徽选定;计划在沈阳市政府广场建努儿哈赤大型雕塑群;沈阳故宫东侧将建“皇太极广场;清十二帝铜像已于6月4日耸立在沈阳,为表现大清国的帝王气派,溥仪特别选择了其成年的形象
Wujiang
GZ is the lenient type.
I am not.

You have commited racism, posting facist material, and challenging the authority of the mods. Thus, your warning levels have been increased.
赵丰年
QUOTE(galvatron @ Aug 29 2006, 08:56 PM) [snapback]4843311[/snapback]
i think do the ming and han chinese discriminate the nuzchen or manchu people during they ruling day? i personally think they surely have althought history record din't not show i think nurhachi father ,uncle and his grandfather was excecuted by ming empreror that the reason he may hate the han people ,remember not all han are good and all manchu was bad ,manchu are a friendly people, not long ago even the chinese in malaysia beat the indonesia maid and tourture them ,remember all people are good and please hate nobody.


Well, there are good Germans and bad Jews too. Does that justify Nazi kill inocent Jews? The Manchu Qing army kill more inocent Chinese than Nazi killed and today there is someone who celebrating their murding. Why are we not allowed to have any reaction? Is it because we Han Chinese do not deserve any human right?

Fighting against Nazi and their supporters is not hating German. Fighting against Manchu crimianls and their supporters is neither hating all the Manchu people, nor racial discrmination.

It is not true that han chinese discriminate the nuzchen or manchu people during they ruling day. It is not only because there is no written discrminating non-Han as the written law in Qing that descriminating Han. In Ming dynasty, there is a written policy .ie. any Jurgen, who want to untake agriculture, will be granted with farm cattle and some silver from the Ming goverment. Of course, you can say Han Chinese do this not because they are generos but just for selfish purpose, they are just afraide Jurgen plunder them so they want them to plant food themselves. But is this a descrimination?

The major Confusious that implemented in China for 2500 years are very against racial discrmination. It is clearly written in classical book in China that human must be distinguished by their behavior and not their blood. It is clearly written that the barbarians can only be dispiced for their crimes of killing and plundering. Once they changed their behavior into Chinese civiliaztion, they should be treated as Chinese. "夷狄入华夏、则华夏之、华夏入狄夷则夷狄之"/"”,“如蒙古、色目,虽非华夏族类,然同生天地之间,有能知礼义、愿为臣民者,与中夏之人抚养无异。"

In fact, if original Chinese really treated other human being like the Manchu-Qing did, Chinese would rely on plundering neighbors, exactly like early Manchu regime and have no way to invent china, silk, build houses, have written system and art. Did you ever see such development in Jurgen? Discrimination is implemented only in the Jurgen-type barbarian society that obtain their fortune by plundering and enslaving others, such as early ManChu-Qing regime. We original Chinese produce wealth ourselves. It is not same type of society. It is very clear in this world, no one can build a developed coutry by implementing racial discrimination, neither could original Chinese.
赵丰年
QUOTE(Wujiang @ Aug 30 2006, 02:26 AM) [snapback]4843425[/snapback]
GZ is the lenient type.
I am not.

You have commited racism, posting facist material, and challenging the authority of the mods. Thus, your warning levels have been increased.


If what I said is lying, it is very easy to take the material to prove it. If what I said true and you can not really overthrow it and you do not want people to know the truth, ban me as you like. I am not that interested in speaking in a forum where the master is so afraid of telling truth.

You must think all the CHF need custody by kindergarener. They do not know what is facist so they need moderator to decide what they should read and what not.
lifezard
QUOTE(赵丰年 @ Aug 30 2006, 04:18 PM) [snapback]4843422[/snapback]
Nelson Mandela became a nationalist because the black people was discrminate in south africa, we become nationalists for Han-Chinese is discriminate in China today. So I guess you ban Mandela' speech here too or you just applied your discrimination against Han Chinese?
It is impressive to find you support those nationlists who celabrating killing Han Chinese and oppress the reaction from the victims side? It is not allowed in CHF to talk about the crime which made more victims than Nazi in history, is it?

Nazi like authority always ban the speech they don't like, perhaps so is CHF? Banning some one is the only to protect lies when there is no any other method to denounce refute the true.


hmmmmm.....if the guy made that picture for show how great they are by killing tens of millions of vicitms and celebrate it as in the following report, they are of course rasists. after we find the celebration, we found to have to become nationalist to protect ourselves. If Jews found German celebrate Nazi killing them, they will have stronger reactions.


really!? tell me how you or the han chinese are discriminated by the manchus? would be interesting to hear..

by the way i have prepared a whole box of tissue papers to just *** *** during your story ..
wlee15
QUOTE(赵丰年 @ Aug 30 2006, 02:18 AM) [snapback]4843422[/snapback]
Nelson Mandela became a nationalist because the black people was discrminate in south africa, we become nationalists for Han-Chinese is discriminate in China today. So I guess you ban Mandela' speech here too or you just applied your discrimination against Han Chinese?

Nelson Mandela message was of reconcilliation between not only blacks and whites but also the peoples of other nationalities. Moreover the white minority had an complete control of rights and priviliges and of political control, not the handful of incentives which are given solely at a Han control government discreation. Your are no Nelson Mandela and your message is a far cry from that of Mr. Mandela. If you want to find a hero you should look north from South Africa at Zimbabwen president Robert Mugabe.

QUOTE

It is impressive to find you support those nationlists who celabrating killing Han Chinese and oppress the reaction from the victims side? It is not allowed in CHF to talk about the crime which made more victims than Nazi in history, is it?
Crimes that all Chinese share collectively because you have an ancestors(if your Chinese) that is more than likely to be of the brutatlity in the early Qing.

QUOTE


Nazi like authority always ban the speech they don't like, perhaps so is CHF? Banning some one is the only to protect lies when there is no any other method to denounce refute the true.


Even in the freest societies rights and freedoms must have limits to prevent one from using their rights to intrude on the rights that others have.

QUOTE


hmmmmm.....if the guy made that picture for show how great they are by killing tens of millions of vicitms and celebrate it as in the following report, they are of course rasists. after we find the celebration, we found to have to become nationalist to protect ourselves. If Jews found German celebrate Nazi killing them, they will have stronger reactions.


You taken an innocuous picture and added an illogical conclusion to those pictures and made irrational calls. And you call the staff of CHF NAZIs, its time to take a look at the mirror.
赵丰年
QUOTE(WangEnlai @ Aug 30 2006, 03:12 AM) [snapback]4843444[/snapback]
There's an anti-Nazi rule on CHF.
color=#FF0000]赵丰年's warning level is raised by 10% for showing and acting on anti-nomadic behaviour.[/color]
A warning was long due for you, I was waiting for some change.


THe manchu-Qing authority killed more Chinese and made bigger human calmity than Nazi authority did. While you are not allowing to blame them, you claimed this is because you are against Nazi. Isn't it a little funny. Why are you against nazi, because you support an authority that killed more human being? right?

I believe most people were against anti-Nazi because they sympathize are with the victims. But some people claim they are against Nazi because they sympathize the murders. I would feel very surprised if CHF's rule is used for the latter case.

QUOTE

赵丰年, please stop demonizing the Manchus. Can you give me exact proof, primary source information?
Can you prove why my speech is not truth but demonization? Isn't it counted as another demonization if I give you the primary source information to show how evil the Manchu murders were? or if my material prove what I said, you would agree this is not demonization? I would be happy to do it, if I am not banned here.

Blaming certain murders and their supporters is not agasint whole the Manchu people. It is exactly same that blaming Nazi and their supporters is not agasint all the german people. It is racism to associate the murder with the innocent people. I only blame the murder, but you do not want to distinguish between the murder and the innocent people, so you claim I am against the whole ethnic group.

QUOTE

Your a smart guy but I don't understand why you choose to waste time on an anti-manchu/jurchen rally...


If you encourage German feeling pround for what Nazi did, you are actually lead them to disaster. It is same if you are encouraging Manchu people feel happy for killing orginal Chinese, you are dong the same. I don't want Chinese was trapped in this kind of disaster, so I waste my time to do this kind of things.
Wujiang
Not enough ? Here, have another.

I am also putting you on mod preview for a week.
赵丰年
QUOTE
赵丰年, please stop demonizing the Manchus. Can you give me exact proof, primary source information?

Giving the privilage of permission to post primary source information, I have the pleasure to post some original records. If the master of the forum do not like others to see the material, please delete my post and ban me as you like.

诸如扬州十日记,《嘉定乙酉纪事》《江变记略》这类笔记记载的满清暴行,大家或许都不陌生。

而下面,我主要列举满清官方资料,以及第三方叙述的满清暴行。


第一部分:满清官方屠杀文告


首先,满清自己发布过大量屠杀文告,其中最著名的,是满清官方资料《清世祖实录》卷十七 顺治二年六月丙寅中的记录:

“自今布告之后,京城内外,直隶各省,限旬日尽行剃完。若规避惜发,巧词争辩,决不轻贷”。并宣称:

“所过州县地方,有能削发投顺,开城纳款,即与爵禄,世守富贵。如有抗拒不遵,大兵一到,玉石俱焚,尽行屠戮。”(爝火錄卷四)

满清在四川1649年的另一份文告,口气也非常类似:

“民贼相混,玉石难分。或屠全城,或屠男而留女”。

满清另一份官方史料,《东华录》卷五顺治元年条,则记载:“不随本朝制度剃发易衣冠者,杀无赦。”

镇江知府告示则是:“一人不剃发全家斩,一家不剃全村斩”! 并将反抗者的人头,集中起来恐吓人民。

顺治二年(弘光元年1645年),江宁巡抚土国宝宣布:“剃发、改装是新朝第一严令,通行天下,法在必行者,不论绅士军民人等,留头不留发,留发不留头!南山可移,此令不可动! ”

在以上满清官方的宣告中,充斥了大量“屠全城”、“尽行屠戮”、“杀无赦”、“全家斩”、“全村斩”的凶恶威胁。而下面列举的资料,则证明,满清的公开威胁,绝不仅仅停留在口头。

第二部分:满清(后金)入关前的大屠杀

首先,满清入关前,其对辽东汉人的大屠杀,也大量见诸于原始文献,以下列举诺干:

天命九年正月,努尔哈赤下九次汗谕,清查所谓“无谷之人”(每人有谷不及五金斗的汉人),并谕令八旗官兵“应将无谷之人视为仇敌”,“捕之送来”,最后于正月二十七日下令:“杀了从各处查出送来之无谷之尼堪(满语之谓汉人)”。这是公开的种族灭绝!
        
天命十年十月初三日,努尔哈赤又指责汉民“窝藏奸细,接受札付,叛逃不绝”,命令八旗贝勒和总兵官以下备御以上官将,带领士卒对村庄的汉人, “分路去,逢村堡,即下马斩杀”。

作为第三方的朝鲜史料,《李朝实录》光海君十三年五月,也记载了辽东汉人的悲惨遭遇:

“时奴贼既得辽阳,辽东八站军民不乐从胡者,多至江边…… 其后,贼大至,义民不肯剃头者,皆投鸭水(鸭绿江)以死。”


第三部分:满清入后的大屠杀

1、满清官方资料和第三方资料

满清入关后,对自己大屠杀最赤裸裸的供认,就是顺治七年十二月清宣大山西总督佟养亮揭贴

“大同、朔州、浑源三城,已经王师屠戮,人民不存”!

满清档案:顺治六年十一月二十一日宣大巡按金志远题本《明清档案》第十一册,A11- 20中,更是由于“城破尽屠”,只好请求释放剩下的5个“无凭究拟”的犯人。《朔州志》也承认:“城破,悉遭屠戮”。

广州大屠杀,得到中立的第三方资料证实。意大利籍耶酥会士卫匡国(Martin Martini,1614~1661)在《鞑靼战纪》中记述:“大屠杀从11月24日一直进行到12月5日。他们不论男女老幼一 律残酷地杀死,他们不说别的,只说:‘杀!杀死这些反叛的蛮子!” (杜文凯:《清代西人见闻录》53页,中国人民大学出版社,1985年6月版) 。

荷兰使臣约翰纽霍夫(John Nieuhoff)在其《在联合省的东印度公司出师中国鞑靼大汗皇帝朝廷》一书记述:“鞑靼全军入城之后,全城顿时是一片凄惨景象,每个士兵开始破坏, 抢走?切可以到手的东西;妇女、儿童和老人哭声震天;从11月26日到12月15日,各处街道 所听到的,全是拷打、杀戮反叛蛮子的声音;全城到处是哀号、屠杀、劫掠;凡有足够财力者,都不 惜代价以赎命,然后逃脱这些惨无人道的屠夫之手。”(司徒琳著,李荣庆等译《南明史》131页, 上海古籍出版社,1992年12月版)。

远离世俗的出家人,则记载了这次大屠杀的具体规模。

《廣州市宗教志》:“清順治七年(1650),清軍攻廣州,‘死難70萬人。’在東郊烏龍岡真修和尚雇人收拾屍骸,‘聚而殮之,埋其餘燼’合葬立碑”。


值得注意的是,广州70万人遇害这个数据,应该是由当年负责收尸的和尚们记载下来的,可是说是直接记录,具有很高的史料价值。


更值得一提的是,这个数字,至今还记录在广州大佛寺的网页上。我佛慈悲,出家人果真不打妄语。



http://www.fayin.cn/news/news_detail.asp?p...amp;news_id=611

经过满清的大规模屠杀后,“县无完村,村无完家,家无完人,人无完妇”。

官方档案中记载如下:

直隶“一望极目,田地荒凉”(卫周元,痛陈民苦疏,皇清凑议,卷1),河南是“满目榛荒,人丁稀少”(李人龙,垦荒宜宽民力疏,皇清凑议,卷4),湖广“弥望千里,绝无人烟”(刘余谟,垦荒兴屯疏,皇朝经世文编卷34)。

满清最高统治者参与大屠杀的铁证:

顺治二年十一月十五日,扬州十日的大刽子手豫亲王多铎,将屠杀中掠夺的“才貌超群汉女人一百零三”,奉献给满清最高酋长。

顺治帝获得十名,摄政王多尔衮获得三名,辅政郑亲王济尔哈朗三名,肃亲王豪格等各二名,英郡王阿济格等各一名。

(《清初内国史院满文档案译编》中册,第一九七页。)

2、各种时人笔记和地方志的记载。

昆山大屠杀,“总计城中人被屠戮者十之四,沉河堕井投缳者十之二,被俘者十之二,以逸者十之一,藏匿幸免者十之一。”(《昆新两县续修合志》卷五一兵纪),“杀戮一空,其逃出城门践溺死者,妇女、婴孩无算。昆山顶上僧寮中,匿妇女千人,小儿一声,搜戮殆尽,血流奔泻,如涧水暴下”!(《研堂见闻杂记罚?lt;/FONT>

南昌大屠杀,“妇女各旗分取之,同营者迭嬲无昼夜。三伏溽炎,或旬月不得一盥拭。除所杀及道死、水死、自经死,而在营者亦十余万,所食牛豕皆沸汤微集而已。饱食湿卧,自愿在营而死者,亦十七八。而先至之兵已各私载卤获连轲而下,所掠男女一并斤卖。其初有不愿死者,望城破或胜,庶几生还;至是知见掠转卖,长与乡里辞也,莫不悲号动天,奋身决赴。浮尸蔽江,天为厉霾。”(徐世溥《江变纪略》)

广州大屠杀,“甲申更姓,七年讨殛。何辜生民,再遭六极。 血溅天街,蝼蚁聚食。饥鸟啄肠,飞上城北。 北风牛溲,堆积髑髅。或如宝塔,或如山邱。 五行共尽,无智无愚,无贵无贱,同为一区。”(《祭共冢文》 王鸣雷),“可喜屠广州,孑遗无留;逸出城者,挤之海中。”(倪在田《续明纪事本末》)

南雄大屠杀,“ 家家燕子巢空林,伏尸如山莽充斥。....死者无头生被掳,有头还与无头伍。血泚焦土掩红颜,孤孩尚探娘怀乳。(清军文书陈殿桂,《雄州店家歌》)

嘉定大屠杀,“市民之中,悬梁者,投井者,投河者,血面者,断肢者,被砍未死手足犹动者,骨肉狼籍。” 清兵“悉从屋上奔驰,通行无阻。城内难民因街上砖石阻塞,不得逃生,皆纷纷投河死,水为之不流。”“日昼街坊当众奸淫。”有不从者,“用长钉钉其两手于板,仍逼淫之。”,“兵丁每遇一人,辄呼蛮子献宝,其入悉取腰缠奉之,意满方释。遇他兵,勒取如前。所献不多,辄砍三刀。至物尽则杀。”(《嘉定乙酉纪事》)

潮州大屠杀,“纵兵屠掠,遗骸十余万”,揭阳县观音堂海德和尚等收尸聚焚于西湖山,将骨灰葬在西湖南岩。福建同安县屠城死难5万余人,梵天寺主持释无疑收尸合葬于寺东北一里之地,建亭“无祠亭”,墓碑上则刻“万善同归所”。

常熟大屠杀,“通衢小巷,桥畔河干,败屋眢井,皆积尸累累,通记不下五千余人,而男女之被掳去者不计焉。”“沿塘树木,人头悬累累,皆全发乡民也。”(《海角遗编》)

扬州大屠杀,这个就不多说了。除了著名的《扬州十日记》外,还有《揚州城守紀略》(“初,高傑兵之至揚也,士民皆遷湖瀦以避之;多為賊所害,有舉室淪喪者。及北警戒嚴,郊外人謂城可恃,皆相扶攜入城;不得入者,稽首長號,哀聲震地。公輒令開城納之。至是城破,豫王下令屠之,凡七日乃止。”“亟收公(史可法)遺骸,而天暑眾屍皆蒸變,不能辨識,得威哭而去”)、《明季南略》(“廿五日丁丑,可法开门出战,清兵破城入,屠杀甚惨”)等资料。






各地为剃发的分散屠杀:“去秋新令:不剃发者以违制论斩。令发后,吏诇不剃发者至军门,朝至朝斩,夕至夕斩。”(《陈确集》卷三十)

还有著名的《江阴城守紀》:

“滿城殺盡,然後封刀。……城中所存無幾,躲在寺觀塔上隱僻處及僧印白等,共計大小五十三人。是役也,守城八十一日,城內死者九萬七千餘人,城外死者七萬五千餘人。”

3、清军的性暴行(扬州十日和江变记略中的常见资料,以下不列入)

顺治二年7月30日,清军至沙镇,“见者即逼索金银,索金讫,即挥刀下斩,女人或拥之行淫,讫,即掳之入舟。”“遇男女,则牵颈而发其地中之藏,少或支吾,即剖腹刳肠。”(《研堂见闻杂录》)

顺治二年,清军实施扬州大屠杀后,至无锡时,“舟中俱有妇人,自扬州掠来者,装饰俱罗绮珠翠,粉白黛绿。”(《明季南略》卷4)

顺治元年(1644)4月,清兵到达盩厔县境内,生员孙文光的妻子费氏被掠去,“计无可托,因绐之曰:‘我有金帛藏眢井中,幸取从之。’兵喜,与俱至井旁,氏探身窥井,即倒股而下。兵恨无金又兼失妇,遂连下巨石击之而去。”(民国《盩厔县志》卷6)

清兴安总兵抢夺妇女达100多人,“淫欲无厌”。制作长押床,裸姬妾数十人于床,“次第就押床淫之。复植木桩于地,锐其表,将众姬一一签木桩上,刀剜其阴,以线贯之为玩弄,抛其尸于江上。”(《平寇志》卷12)

清军江阴大屠杀,抗拒清军奸淫被害妇女,按照满清地方志统计为101人。(道光《江阴县志》卷20《烈女》)

清军扬州大屠杀,抗拒清军奸淫被害妇女,按照满清地方志统计为100多人。( 雍正《扬州府志》卷34 )

清军围困嘉定城时,在城外,“选美妇室女数十人,……悉去衣裙,淫蛊毒虐。”

嘉定沦陷后,清军抢掠“大家闺彦及民间妇女有美色者生虏,白昼于街坊当众奸淫;……有不从者,用长钉钉其两手于板,仍逼淫之。”“妇女不胜其嬲,毙者七人。”(《嘉定屠城纪略》)

清兵在江阴的观音寺“掠妇女淫污地上,僧恶其秽,密于后屋放火。兵大怒,大杀百余人,僧尽死。”(《明季北略》卷11)

顺治二年(1645)江阴城陷时,有母子3人,“一母一子,一女十四岁。兵淫其女,哀号不忍闻”,后兵杀其子,释母,“抱女马上去”。又有一兵“挟一妇人走,后随两小儿,大可八岁,小可六岁”,兵杀二子,抱其母走。(《明季南略》卷4)

顺治二年(1645)5月9 日,南京失陷时,当涂孙陶氏被清兵所掠,“缚其手,介刃于两指之间,曰:从我则完,不从则裂。陶曰:义不以身辱,速尽为惠。兵稍创其指,血流竟手。曰:从乎?曰:不从。卒怒,裂其手而下,且剜其胸,寸磔死。”(《明史》卷303)

昆山县庠生胡泓时遇害,其妻陆氏21岁抱着三岁的儿子,欲跳井,被一清兵所执。“氏徒跣被发,解佩刀自破其面,……氏骂不绝口,至维亭挥刀剖腹而死。”( 光绪六年《昆新两县续修合志》卷36)

4、满清掠夺虐杀汉族奴隶




崇祯十一年冬至十二年春,清军在畿辅、山东一带掠去汉民四十六万二千三百余人,崇祯十五年冬至十六年夏,清军又“俘获人民三十六万九千名口”。(《清太宗实录》)

满清入关后,继续劫掠人口。 顺治二年八月辛巳日谕兵部“俘获人口,照例给赏登城被伤之人。”(《清世祖实录》)

汉人奴隶遭受非人的虐待,大量自杀。康熙初年,“八旗家丁每岁以自尽报部者不下二千人”(《清史稿》),由此推算,仅自杀的汉人,在满清入关前后几十年间,就不下10万人。被虐待致死的,更不在少数。

由于满清的疯狂虐待,大量汉人奴隶逃亡,“只此数月之间,逃人已几数万。”(《清世祖实录》)

满清统治者为了制止逃往,强化其1626年颁布的《逃人法》,顺治皇帝,“有隐匿逃人者斩,其邻佑及十家长、百家长不行举首,地方官不能觉察者,俱为连坐”。顺治六年又改为“隐匿逃人者免死,流徙”、“再行申饬,自此谕颁发之日为始,凡章奏中再有干涉逃人者,定置重罪,决不轻恕”(《清世祖实录》)

甚至投靠满清的大汉奸靖南王耿仲明,由于收留了逃亡汉人奴隶,也被迫自杀。

5、满清迁海暴行:

康熙三年(1664)三月初六,清军大队兵船入东山,“尽驱沿海居民入内地,筑墙为界,纵军士大淫掠,杀人山积,海水殷然”(《台湾郑氏始末》)

“一时人民失业,号泣之声载道,乡井流离颠沛之惨非常,背夫弃子,失父离妻,老稚填于沟壑,骸骨白于荒野”(《台湾外志》)

福宁州, “州地以大路为界,南路以州前岭为界,松山、后港、赤俺、石坝近城亦在界外。道旁木栅,牛马不许出入。每处悬一碑曰:敢出界者斩!”“越界数步,即行枭首”(乾隆二十七年福宁府志卷四十三)

莆田县,“着附海居民搬入离城二十里内居住,二十里外筑土墙为界,寸板不许下海,界外不许闲行,出界以违旨立杀。武兵不时巡界。间有越界,一遇巡兵,顿时斩首”“每出界巡哨只代刀,逢人必杀。……截界十余年,杀人以千记” ”(《清初莆变小乘》

(广东香山县)“初,(广东香山县)黄凉都民奉迁时。民多恋土。都地山深谷邃,藏匿者众,平藩左翼班际盛诱之曰点阅,抱大府即许复业。愚民信其然。际盛乃勒兵长连埔,按名令民自前营入,后营出。入即杀,无一人幸脱者。复界后,枯骨遍地,土民丛葬一埠,树碣曰木龙岁冢,木龙者,甲辰隐语也”(道光七年《香山县志》卷八)

四、对于屠杀规模的估计

笔者对明清之际,人口变迁的一些看法,仅供参考。

明代中国人口,最后的全国官方统计,为5,165.5459人,时间为明光宗泰昌元年。(明熹宗实录卷4)

满清最初的全国人口统计,为1,063.3326人(减少了4000多万),时间为清世祖顺治八年(清实录世祖卷61)。

而在满清控制全国后的清圣祖康熙二十一年(1682年,入关后第48年),全国人口也只有1,943.2753人。仅相当于明光宗泰昌元年人口的36%!

以上人口数字,当然是不完整。因为当时是按人口缴税,因此人口被大量隐瞒。很多学者认为,明代实际人口,大约在1亿到2亿。即使说清初也存在同样的人口瞒报现象,估计满清入关后,人口的减少,最少也有5000万人(这是一个极端保守的估计)!如果再考虑人口出生的因素,在满清入关后,中国人口损失的总数,很可能是一个大大超过5000万的惊人的天文数字!!人口减员超过1亿的可能性,也是存在的。

因此,推定有几千万,遭到了满清的屠杀,是有充分依据的。
galvatron prime
i see some history fact that a han man wu sangui son have marry the[ 14 th?]daughter of emperor hong taiji ,are this the fact, anyways manchu are majority are good people ,please do not blame them ,all this are past now i myself too a han chinese .
RICECAKE
Nurhaci's son in-law was a Han Chinese,his name is also written in history texts and commercial available books.

The fact was our Manchu Royal Family of Aisin-Giron never entirely excluded Han Chinese,as this rant-manic baseless wrote in his posts.
Borjigin Ayurbarwada
QUOTE
THe manchu-Qing authority killed more Chinese and made bigger human calmity than Nazi authority did. While you are not allowing to blame them, you claimed this is because you are against Nazi. Isn't it a little funny. Why are you against nazi, because you support an authority that killed more human being? right?

I believe most people were against anti-Nazi because they sympathize are with the victims. But some people claim they are against Nazi because they sympathize the murders. I would feel very surprised if CHF's rule is used for the latter case.



heat.gif heat.gif heat.gif heat.gif heat.gif heat.gif heat.gif heat.gif heat.gif heat.gif heat.gif

This cliche is getting old. Qin Shi Huang killed more Chinese than the Nazi authorities did. Han Wu Di killed more Chinese than the Nazi authorities did. Wang Mang killed more Chinese than the Nazi authorities did. Zhang Jiao killed more Chinese than the Nazi authorities did. Sui Yang Di killed more Chinese than the Nazi authorities did. Li Long Ji killed more Chinese than the Nazi authorities did. Huang Chao killed more Chinese than the Nazi authorities did. Zhu Yang Zhang killed more Chinese than the Nazi authorities did. Zhu Di killed more Chinese than the Nazi authorities did. Chiang Kai Shek killed more Chinese than the Nazi authorities did. Mao Ze Dong killed more Chinese than the Nazi authorities did. These are just some names out of a bunch that commited the same "atrocity". Why don't you start off anti Han comments instead, because they have done much more killing. You are applying double standards, blatant racism all due to your sample selectivity, irrational reasoning, and incompetence in history.
astralis
赵丰年,

lay out your facts, and if they can speak for themselves, they will. you do not need to add any of your inflammatory comments. if you really need to make a comment, make it non-inflammatory.

you have been warned again and again by both the site admin, supermoderators, and moderators. here is one more moderator warning you to watch your language and act civilly.

or face ban. have it your way.
Juchechosunmanse
QUOTE(赵丰年 @ Aug 30 2006, 12:37 AM) [snapback]4843379[/snapback]
However, the poeple who made this pictures did not belong to most of them.


They feel happy and pround that their ancestors killed so many Chinese. They do not do it now because they do not have the chance, not because they do not want to do so. They despise the value of human life of Chinese poeple. In we have gentalmen above who clearly state there is nothing wrong to kill Chinese people.

If it is just one or two person who think this way, it is OK, however, It is very common today to that killing Han Chinese has nothing wrong. we see this kind of ideology everywhere in China now. This idea even accepted by Western Scholar in histrians in Singapore. Considering there are tens of millions have kind killed by the same group of people, we han chinese certainly have reason to feel unsafe.



How do you know these people are proud of their ancestors killing Han Chinese? It seems to me that these people were just celebrating their nomadic roots. There are though, many Manchu ultra-nationalists in the PRC today who wish their ancestors had killed more Han Chinese than they did. Ultra-nationalists from any ethnic group are bad, Han, Korean, Manchu etc.

QUOTE(General_Zhaoyun @ Aug 30 2006, 02:13 AM) [snapback]4843421[/snapback]
I have never come across a historical writing that says " killing Han Chinese has nothing wrong". It's just merely not being mentioned. It's only the han-chauvanist historians that propagandized on the slogan that " killing Han Chinese has nothing wrong" that is only appearing on the internet.



I guess you need to visit some Manchu sites and forums. You'd be surprised.
Zuo Zongtang


If I am at some WWII fair, holding a MP 40 or Stg 44, and I happen to be German, you can not say that I am supporting Nazis. If I was Russian and I was holding a Mosin-Nagant, you cannot say I have anythign to do with the Soviets. This is about as logical as what your comments are. The pic I pasted before was of the PLA. Can you say that this is the Han Chinese proudly showing off their racism? After all, Han are not all angels. The above pic is from Saving Private Ryan. The guy is holding an MG42, FIRING AT AMERICANS. Would you say then that Saving Private Ryan, a movie where only two members of the original squad of six survive, is a Nazi propoganda machine?

I've allowed your two previous posts because they are less hateful and at least attempt at an argument. But remember, the Ban Button needs dusting every now and then...

Juchechosunmanse: Please don't double post.
Wujiang
ok, I think this topic is getting way too heated. I am closing it for 3 days. Everyone go off and do some seriously hardcore yoga.
赵丰年
QUOTE(warhead @ Aug 30 2006, 10:50 AM) [snapback]4843568[/snapback]
heat.gif heat.gif heat.gif heat.gif heat.gif heat.gif heat.gif heat.gif heat.gif heat.gif heat.gif

This cliche is getting old. Qin Shi Huang killed more Chinese than the Nazi authorities did. Han Wu Di killed more Chinese than the Nazi authorities did. ........... You are applying double standards, blatant racism all due to your sample selectivity, irrational reasoning, and incompetence in history.


Qin Shi Huang murdered more victims than Nazi did? How could he murder more than the entire Chinese population?

How many victims, you think, Nazi has murdered?
According to Wikepedia, Nazi murdered 6 millions Jewes and 10 millions Slavians. So they least least murder 16 millions in their Holocaust (which does included victims in any other countries). Here is the web site reffereing the number.
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%BA%B3%E7%...%BE%B7%E5%9B%BD

I also read from somewhere that the estimated number of victims under Nazi in Europe was about 30-40 millions. There are a number of web pages referring this number.

According to traditional estimation in historical academia, from total registered population in Qin ShiHuang's age was about 20 millions. The population before his age was never exceed 40 millions (They said maximun a little over than 30 millions in 战国 period).

Since you are so sure Qin Shihang murdered more Chinese than Nazi did to their victims, how many people do you think Nazi has murdered? How many Qin Shi Huang did? You think Qin Shi-Huang indeed was able to kill more people than the entire Chinese population or you think the traditional estimation from historical academia was wrong. More ever, what primary source made you so sure that Qin Shi-Huang killed more victims than Nazi did? Could you present the primary source about Qin Shi Huang’s holocaust as I presented for the holocaust of the Qing authority above?

There are also questions about how the other murders you referred to, but Qin Shi Huang’s case is the one that confuse me most. Being distinguished as CHF grand Historians with your the authority to declare I am incompetent in history, I guess it must be very easy for you to present the primary source to prove that Qin Shi-Huang killed more victims than Nazi. CHF would be extremely valuable in history discussion if such a important conclusion will be proved with solid evidence, because such precious knowledge can not be easily obtained from elsewhere.
Tungus
QUOTE(赵丰年 @ Aug 30 2006, 04:37 AM) [snapback]4843450[/snapback]
THe manchu-Qing authority killed more Chinese and made bigger human calmity than Nazi authority did. While you are not allowing to blame them, you claimed this is because you are against Nazi. Isn't it a little funny. Why are you against nazi, because you support an authority that killed more human being? right?

I believe most people were against anti-Nazi because they sympathize are with the victims. But some people claim they are against Nazi because they sympathize the murders. I would feel very surprised if CHF's rule is used for the latter case.
Can you prove why my speech is not truth but demonization? Isn't it counted as another demonization if I give you the primary source information to show how evil the Manchu murders were? or if my material prove what I said, you would agree this is not demonization? I would be happy to do it, if I am not banned here.

Blaming certain murders and their supporters is not agasint whole the Manchu people. It is exactly same that blaming Nazi and their supporters is not agasint all the german people. It is racism to associate the murder with the innocent people. I only blame the murder, but you do not want to distinguish between the murder and the innocent people, so you claim I am against the whole ethnic group.
If you encourage German feeling pround for what Nazi did, you are actually lead them to disaster. It is same if you are encouraging Manchu people feel happy for killing orginal Chinese, you are dong the same. I don't want Chinese was trapped in this kind of disaster, so I waste my time to do this kind of things.


One sentence for you. China's terriotory would have been a hell lot smaller today if Manchus were to decide not to invade China and to conquer so many neighbors back then. When Han Chinese got the power after Qing's collapse, what did we see afterwards? Warlords trying to carve up China, lost of outer Mongolia, a civil war, then the cultural revolution. Don't blame Manchus for Han peoples' inability to unify a nation.
赵丰年
QUOTE(Tungus @ Sep 25 2006, 03:42 PM) [snapback]4850606[/snapback]
One sentence for you. China's terriotory would have been a hell lot smaller today if Manchus were to decide not to invade China and to conquer so many neighbors back then. When Han Chinese got the power after Qing's collapse, what did we see afterwards? Warlords trying to carve up China, lost of outer Mongolia, a civil war, then the cultural revolution. Don't blame Manchus for Han peoples' inability to unify a nation.


You seem to forget to mention more important "service" of Qing. The Qing's royal family helped Japaness to conquer the whole China. If they succeed, Chinese would live in a country even with bigger territery, in which Chinese people would not really benifit anything other than being enslaved. Yes, the Qing regime invade a lot of place other than tradictional Chinese territery. They excuted ethnic holocaust and sweeped out the entire population of quite a few non-Han Chinese ethnic groups, on the land that is belong to China today. However, they never allow any Chinese people to use the land. Those land belong to China not because the Qing's massarcre to non-Han Chinese. It is because people living on the land today and other Chinese can live with peace and hamony as brothers so that they do not have to killed each other like the Qing authority did.

I certainly don't think Han-Chinese or any Chinese ethnic group should appreciate Qing's ethnic cleaning for those non-Han original dweller just because the land belong to China today.
Ashura
QUOTE(Tungus @ Sep 25 2006, 02:42 PM) [snapback]4850606[/snapback]
One sentence for you. China's terriotory would have been a hell lot smaller today if Manchus were to decide not to invade China and to conquer so many neighbors back then.

So we judge the well-being of our lives by how big the land mass that an alienating aristocrat ruling class had accuminlated?

Would you be happy if you were a slave in the Roman Emipre?

Now i don't take side with 赵丰年, many of his comments are just, well distrubing, but the reasoning above is equally horrible.

I for one never forgive the Manchu for massacres that they had done in the past. Likewise, I will never forgive the Japanese for Nanjing. Nonetheless, I do not comdemn modern day Manchurian and Japanese, unless they deny the responsibility of their wrong-doings in the past. The Manchus may had paid the price as their country does not exist anymore.

That being said, Tungus' reasoning is just a rationalization or white-washing for the Manchus' conquest and the wrongs along with it. Any kind of enthinic cleansing is just wrong, plain and simple, no matter whatever goods you create out of it. Let's say if Japanese were successful in the conquest of China and did an execellent job in administration, is Nanjing justifiable? Is American conquest and massacres on the aboriginal people justifiable, since American had created a powerful nation? Answer to both questions is No.

Now I say again I do not take side with 赵丰年. Using a picture and claim that Manchurian celebrating their culture is a show of bloodthrist is just out of context. Japanese were keen to conquer China, so by his logic if a Japanese happens to pick up a samurai sword today, that means in his mind he wants to kill some Chinese. This is just nonsense, and he has prejuduice about certain group of people. The Manchus as the imperial ruling class had done many wrongs to the Chinese and other ethinic groups, they did implement a system agaist the majority of Chinese, but we cannot demonize Manchurian of today. White-washing and prejudice are equally wrong.
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