I originally posted this on the "Five Dynasties, Song, Liao, Jin and Yuan" forum. I thought since it dealt with modern history, it should be posted here as well. Hopefully I can find help in either forums...

I just recently added an article about the Léitái (擂臺 – “Grind Platform”) raised fighting platform on wikipedia. Here is the url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leitai

The problem I am having is that there is far more “modern day” information (from 1928 and forward) than there is “historical”. Historically, from what I’ve read, the leitai first appeared during the Tang and Song dynasties. But the most reliable info comes from the “Central Guoshu Institutes” Leitai tournament in 1928. The only info that I’ve read relating to an historical leitai match is an old Northern Praying Mantis boxing legend that states the founder “Wang Lang” was defeated on the leitai in Kaifeng by the founder of Tongbei, Gen. Han Tong, during the Song Dynasty. (however, the dating for this legend is oh so wrong. I don't want to get started on this right now. maybe later!)

I’ve read on an “Official Chinese Olympic Commitee" website that the winner of old-school leitai matches became,


Now there are some Editors on wikipedia who don’t feel the phrase “owner of the platform” has enough support for it to be added to my article. I somewhat agree with them since the leitai is only briefly mentioned in the second to the last sentence of the last paragraph of a Sanda/Wushu article. No real support for this claim is elaborated on. I don’t doubt the authenticity of the information, but all info referenced in the encyclopedia articles must have support. I recently tried contacting the webmaster of the page, but it seems the link to his/her email is dead. Plus, I think the last time the page was updated was in 2003.

Despite having a decent-sized list of “Famous leitai fighters of the past” (Song Dynasty – early 1950's, which I plan on expanding when new info arises), the article needs help. I hope somebody out there will be kind enough to help me track down more historical info (1928 and back) for this article. I especially would like to find the actual source of the “owner of the platform” phrase. Please keep in mind that the article is kind of rough since its still a work in progress. I plan on adding pictures at some point as well.

If you know of a chinese internet site or maybe even a book that has the info I require, please don't hesitate to write me. Also, I'm American, so my chinese is bad. Despite this, I should be able to translate what you send me with an online translator. I use those a lot. Thanks.

I've moved your question to the Martial Arts section. You're likelier to find help here.

Well, some good news. I just found a source that said the Leitai (presumably under a different name and appearance) was in use during the Qin Dynasty. It was used by soldiers to hold Jiao Di (modern day "Shuai Jiao") competitions. The Champions would either become bodyguards to the emperor or martial instructors to the armed forces. This info was translated from an ancient Shuai Jiao script by the University of Chinese Culture at Taipei, Taiwan.

As far as I can tell, it filtered down into the civilian quarter and became a venue for exhibition matches. Whatever name it went by eventually became Leitai. I'm still waiting on a reply from the University before I add anything to my wikipedia article. Hopefully they can supply me with the name of the historical source.

did what you find also describe what was the fighting 'style' used by the Qin?

Yes. The soldiers practiced Jiao Di (modern day Shuai Jiao).

Actually, it would seem to be 'empty hand fighting' rather than a 'style' of any form.

My answer comes from an ancient Shuai Jiao text that was translated by the Chinese Culture University of Taipei, Taiwan. I'm sure there were other techniques used. But I can only offer the info I'm given. As soon as I get the name of the text and its date, I will add it to the article.

If memory serves, the differentiation of Shuaijiao and Baida did not begin to occur until the Han dynasty or later. I suspect that the paper you read was a mistranslation.




There are quite a significant difference between a 'ring' for Shuaijiao and a Leitai.

A 'ring' for Shuaijiao is a sport. At the end of the day, there are rules in which both sides goes by. This kind of arena can be traced all the way back to the Zhou dynasty. Yet a Leitai on the other hand, is a free-for-all. There are no explicit rules in which people followed. You keep fighting until one side if down or knocked off the leitai. In addition, a leitai was not limited to hand-to-hand combat. Weapons were also permited. If I recall correctly, the earliest mentioning of 'leitai' should be sometime during hte Song dynasty.

Did a Leitai evolve from the ancient shuaijiao ring ? Possible. But the transition is so great it would be like saying karate IS a form of Fujian martial arts.

If you read the first paragraph of my article (see the link at the top) you will see that I already have this info on the page.

Since I have not heard back from the martial arts organization that presented the translated "leitai during the Qin" info, I will contact the Martial arts department of the Chinese Cultural University at Taipei, Taiwan where it originally came from. Hopefully they will be able to give me concrete material that I can add to the page. This may take some time for them to write me back.

Also, Wujiang, what other info about the leitai do you have? I don't have enough historical material for the page. I would like to know more about 'famous' leitai bouts that took place prior to the Qing dynasty. Most of my info is Qing - Present. I'm going to write a small section about the Guoshu leitai bouts in Taiwan during the 50's.

Leitai means "thunder stage", I wonder if there is any explanation or story behind the etymology?

If you click the link on my original post, it will bring you to the Leitai article I am currently writing on Wikipedia. There is a small etymology section. Its not extensive, but there is enough there for someone to get a generalized idea of where the name came from.

I recently corresponded via email with Mr. Gene Ching, Associate Publisher of Kung Fu Tai Chi Magazine, about a separate article I am writing on the Chicken-Saber Sickle ( 鷄刀鐮) and, its cousin, the Chicken-Claw Sickle ( 鷄爪鐮). Anyway, I mentioned the Leitai article to him and he told me that the magazine publishes stuff from amateur writers and compensates them for their work. Unfortunately, they don’t publish works that have appeared in prior venues, like Wikipedia for instance. I wrote him back and said that it would be a GREAT idea for a Leitai article to appear in the magazine since Fearless (2006) came out in American theaters. I said that it sparked many peoples’ interest in the Leitai, including my own when I first saw it on DVD many months ago. I had heard of and done some research on the fighting stage prior to seeing this movie. But it was the movie that inspired me to write this article. I suggested to Mr. Ching that maybe an intern uses my article as a “Beginning” for some REAL in-depth research.

He wrote me back today and told me that the magazine wasn't affluent enough to merit interns. He liked my "clean writing style" and hoped I would do an article for them in the near future. Anyway, my article's length meets Kung Fu Magazine's requirements (1500-2500 words), but I need to make more appealing to the common reader instead of history nuts like myself. Maybe I should focus on Jet Li’s bouts in the first part and then slowly transition to its actual history. I wish I would have contacted him earlier, that way I could have rewritten the article and had it submitted right when Fearless came out in America.

historically, most of Huo Yuanjia's bouts were not on a leitai.

I kind of figured that myself, but I wanted to possible open the article with the bouts from the movie. I still don't have enough info for the current article. I would like to rewrite it and submit it later to Kung Fu Magazine. Have you been able to locate any good Leitai info from your books Wujiang?

sorry brother, work, family and MA school matters are taking up the majority of my time lately. I don't think I am going to find that time to dig up the kind of info you want (this topic primarily) in the short run.

That's okay, I understand. I know how you feel. I work 3rd shift (9 pm – 6 am) and take care of niece and nephew during the day. I only get a few chances during the day and when I get home in the mornings to work on my posts. I want you to know that I appreciate what you do for this forum in general.