I don't speak Cantonese or Mandarin, so I was watching the Jet Li film Swordsman II with English subtitles. In the subtitles, they refer to Highlanders and Mainlanders. I'm guessing that by Mainlanders, they mean Han Chinese. WHo are the Highlanders?

i forgot the plot. were they talking about miao, dutch or japanese?

Not Dutch or Japanese. The Sun Moon Sect is described as "Highlanders." Who are the Miao?

I read in many reviews that this movie suffered from atrocious translations when marketted in the US, and that fans were urged to get the original HK version with the original subtitles instead.

The "highlanders" were referring to the Miao (苗) people in southern China. Also known as the Hmong.

The Hmong, also known as Miao (Chinese: 苗: Miáo; Vietnamese: Mẹo or Hmông; Thai: ม้ง (mong) or แม้ว (maew)), are an Asian ethnic group whose homeland is in the mountainous regions of southern China (especially Guizhou 贵州) that cross into northern Southeast Asia (northern Vietnam and Laos). The group is believed to have a history even longer than that of the Han Chinese. The term "Miao" is offensive to some Hmong people. Today, they form the fifth largest of the 56 nationalities officially recognized by the People's Republic of China.

In the WuXia genres, the ethnic Hans generally despised the Miao people as being less civilised, but also wary of them as the Miao people practiced witchcraft and were well entrenched in their native terrains. It was thought that Miao ladies had an assortment of voodoo-like accessories to inflict punishment on men who played fast and loose with them, especially the non-Miao males.

The movie "Swordsman II" used characters from Jin Yong's novel "Xiao Ao Jiang Hu", aka The Proud Smiling Wanderer - 笑傲江湖. But its plot was not in the novel.

The Sun Moon Sect..... i don't think sun moon sect should be miao if i remember correctly. but again, i forgot most of the plot. sun moon sect was located on a mountain, maybe that's why they were reffered as highlanders.

The Sun Moon Sect (日月神教) was not Miao, but the Miao's Five Poison Sect (五毒教) was a vassal to the Sun Moon Sect. The Sun Moon Sect was demographically quite "cosmopolitan", so the highlanders should be referring to the Miaos only.

Basically, under evil leadership, the Sun Moon Sect became the paramount lord of Underworld, exacting tribute and submission from various unorthodox (mostly evil) organisations all over the country, including the Five Poison Sect of the Miao.

The Sun Moon Sect's headquarters was at the Black Wood Cliffs (黑木崖). Without the novel the movie took its characters from, the Smiling Proud Wanderer (笑傲江湖 ) by Jin Yong (金庸) on hand, I can't remember if its locality was ever specified. The HQ made an appearance in the movie "Swordsman III".

Basically, in the first movie "Swordsman I" (which had the most semblance to the original novel, which was not saying much), the character Ren YingYing (任盈盈) was staying with the Five Poison Sect when she met with the hero. The man-crazy Lan FengHuang, or Blue Phoenix, (蓝鳳凰), acted by Fennie Yuen Kit-Ying, was the actual leader of the Five Poison Sect.

In the novel, YingYing's father was the chief of the Sun Moon Sect. The deputy chief DongFang BuBai (东方不败) secretly deposed the chief to usurp the leadership. In maintain appearances, he lavished generous treatment on YingYing. Being a hard person, he and his clique extorted greatly from the vassals of the Sect, but readily be lenient to the vassals when entreated by YingYing. Thus, YingYing's popularity was high among the vassals, including the Five Poison Sect. YingYing was aware of the coup but feigned ignorance, spending most of her time away from the Sun Moon Sect's HQ.

Note: the novel's DongFang BuBai was very different from the beautiful character played by Briggite Lin in "Swordsman II" and "Swordsman III". In the novel, he was an ugly drag queen, but the most powerful fighter who was defeated only through trickery.

The Miao (or Hmong, as they prefer to be called) of Guizhou have a bitter history of conflict with the Han Chinese. During the Ming dynasty, both the imperial government and Han settlers fought wars against the Miao that resulted in huge death tolls. The Miao also rebelled on many occasions throughout the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. These wars resulted in the building of the now-famous "southern Great Wall", a long wall to keep the Miao in the mountains away from Han Chinese settlements. Some have even described the Ming and Qing government policies towards the Miao as being state-sanctioned genocide, and they resulted in the dispersal of the Miao into scattered populations around Guizhou.

Thanks, everyone. This helps out a lot.

Wow, this is really interesting. Any more info on the Ancient Miao's history? Why do we suspect their history is longer than the Han's?

Oops, I copied that statement about the history longer than Han's from a website without checking.

I speculate the reason for the statement was because the Han Chinese, while being descendants from the Yan and Huang tribes, did not become distinctive group on its own until later. In comparison, I can only suppose the Miao people developed their own identity earlier.

"According to Chinese legend, the tribe under Chiyou (蚩尤 Chīyoú) was defeated at Zhuolu (涿鹿 Zhuōlù, a defunct prefecture on the border of today provinces of Hebei and Liaoning) by Huang Di (黃帝 Huángdì), leader of the Huaxia (華夏 Huáxià) tribe as they struggled for supremacy of the Huang he valley. The compass was believed to be the crucial reason of Huaxia's victory. The battle, believed to be taken place in early 26th century B.C, was fought under heavy fog as Huaxia was able to match against Miao with the compass. After the loss, the original tribe splitted into two smaller splinter tribes, the Miao and the Li (黎 lí). Miao continuously moving southwest and Li southeast as the Huaxia race, now known as Han Chinese race, expanding southwards. During the course of Chinese history, they were regarded as "barbarians" by the increasingly technologically and culturally advanced Han Chinese. Some fragments of the races were assimilated into the Chinese during Zhou Dynasty.

The term Miao was first used by the Chinese in pre-Qin times, i.e. before 221 BC, for designating non-Chinese groups in the south. It was often used in the combinations "miaomin", "youmiao" and "sanmiao" (三苗 Sānmiáo). At that time the people lived in the Chang Jiang valley, but later they were forced by the Chinese to move further southwards."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miao

So the answer to your question is a typical one for warfare among the ancient people.

Just a slight correction. The 'compass' used by Huangdi was not a magnetic compass as such (that was only developed in the 4th century BC), but rather the famous 'south-pointing chariot'. It was a figure of a man with an outstretched arm on a chariot, and whichever way the chariot moved, the man would rotate to point south. Joseph Needham's theory is that this involved differential gears, and was therefore the first cybernetic machine. However, he doubts that a real machine like this was constructed until the 3rd century AD (by the inventor Ma Jun). Another version of the origin of the south-pointing chariot says that it was invented by the famous Duke of Zhou (about 1030 BC).

Miao's tribal emblem/icon is that of a Frog, one of the four main tribal emblems of the pre-Xia dynasty china found by archiologists.

An interesting tibit, Mongol's ancenstral tribal emblem is that of the deer, also one of the four main emblems of pre-historic/lengendary times.

By the why, Miao and "Meng, Hmong or Mong" are different people according to my knowledge. They live around the same area. Spreading from GuangXi to Yunan, to Vietnam, Myermar and so on.

The Miao in Vietnam actually worked with the US during the Vietnam war to fight the Viet Cong. They were excellent mountain fighters. Miao were looked down upon by the Vietnamese. Therefore when the transition from the US to the South Vietnam took place, those Miao were relactant to fight. A lot of them actually retreated to America with their comrades.

hansioux, welcome to CHF. Are you the same hansioux from AE?

Are you referring to what the French called the Montagnards (Mountain People)?

Regarding the Miao, they are still referred to as such in China, but those who have migrated to the West are very firm on wanting to be known as Hmong. So whether or not the Hmong and the Miao were originally the same people, the present-day Hmong seem to see them as being one and the same.

I am glad that I have yet to find another hansioux out there in the world....

That makes it very easy to apply for email accounts XD

I have a semi-related question to my original one: what ethnicity is the "evil cult" of "The Bride With White Hair" supposed to represent? I'm guessing Hui, but I could be wrong. They definitely seem to be non-Manchu, non-Han, yet the story seems to take place near the Manchurian border in the early to mid 1600's. Any ideas on this one?

Here is a little history of who the Hmongs are. Archeological and anthropological evidences, oral traditions, Chinese imperial records, and scholars have traced the Hmong back to central Asia, possibly as early as 5000 B.C. It's believe the Hmong lived in China before the Chinese. At the time, it was not called China, but was called after the Hmong emperor's name. Then one day, the Chinese started to appear. They traveled to the Hmong kingdom from the direction of the Pacific Ocean. The Chinese migrated in, and started to work in the fields, and intermarried with the Hmongs. When the population of the Chinese surpassed the Hmong, the Chinese began to take over. Centuries of wars between the Hmong and Chinese broke out. With no fortune, a Hmong man was bribed to killed the Hmong Emperor, and was successful at doing so too. Since then, the Hmongs were persecuted, and forced out by the new emperor, a Chinese emperor. Today, the Hmongs are scatter all over the world.

I think you've misposted from another dimension.

What is it anyways? Chinese character please?

hahaha...it's hard to believe but you can look it up and see for yourself

Why do I have to look it up. You provide the source.

Even though the Chinese had label the Hmongs "Miao"...they called themselve "Hmong"...which means free man

very well...here is a very detail presentation at a conference done by Yuepheng L. Xiong...the intro is kind of long...so skip to the facts if you want

http://stickyrice.itgo.com/hmongchina.html

or if you don't want to read all that...here are some great paintings done by Cy Thao about the Hmongs history

http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Visual___Artistic_..._migration.html

King Chi You Follower, I'm quite sure you're an ethnic Hmong yourself. Welcome to CHF - I hope we will all be able to put ancient enmities aside here. The sources that you quoted need not be authoritative by themselves, since they have a Hmong nationalist stance, but they are worthy of discussion.

I have merged this thread with an earlier one on the Miao or Hmong. The Hmong are said to be descendants of Chi You, the rival ruler whom Huang Di defeated and killed. Strange to say, some Koreans are also recently claiming Chi You as their ancestor.

Those crazy @#*&@^#.....

To the Korean Extreme Nationalists, he's known as Chiwoo Cheonwang...

I hate what they're doing...and to think that I once believed them..

OMG, I finally figured out what those English words ("King Chi You Follower") mean!

Miao was in China before the arrival of 羌 Qiang of 神農氏 (Yan Di) and 氐 Di of Huang Di).

So I don't see how King Chi You Follower's statement is so wrong.

Yeah...true

Is the Hmong language considered to be Sino-Tibetan or a seperate group? I always thought out of all the ethnic and linguistical groupings out there, that the Hmongs were closely related with the Yao and She of China/S.E Asia. However many Hmongs in the US give such varying claims, some stating that they are descendents of Chinese, other are Mongols, etc.

Yeah...I find that the Hmong are closely related to the Yao, the fact that some Yao can speak and understand Hmong and share almost the same culture...and I've never heard of any Hmongs claiming that they are descendents of Chinese or Mongols...and this might sounds off the topic, but I found a very interesting page about ancient Hmong characters...these characters were carved on stones and walls in ancient Hmong villages in China...and it's believe that the Chinese adopted these ancient characters into their writings

http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/Hmong/ancienthmong.html

I find the claim that some Yao can speak and understand "Hmong" difficult to believe.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hmong

As you can see, Miao/Hmong itself has numerous mutually unintelligible dialects. Just because Miao and Yao belong in the same language family, it doesn't mean they are mutually intelligible.

I've heard numerous outrageous claims regarding the origin of Miao/Hmongs which I won't repeat here...

But I guess I should add the claim of "Hmongs inventing Chinese characters" to the list...

Wow, interesting King Chi You Follower. I have seen the recent (and i mean within a year) discovery of Anscient Yue writting in China.

In fact, Taiwanese might just have something very similar. In the thread GZ created on Taiwanese Language, you can see some of the info that I posted regarding Taiwanese writting.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...opic=2119&st=15

Hey, since "T" and "丁" are similar in shape and have similar consonants, let's add "Romans invented Chinese characters" to the list too......

How do you know there's no relations?

Alphabets started out to be pictorials as well. Such as B is the wings of a bee.

If T originally meant nail where ever it was first created, then it is in some way related to 丁, since it also meant nail. 釘 is a 假借.

How do you know the Roman word for bee has a consonant of "B"?

Anyways, even if T originated from nails, it doesn't mean "T" comes from "丁" or the other way around. Most likely it's just pure coincidence.

Enough said.

That's true, it COULD just be pure coincidence.

Just ike the egyptian character for sun is expactly the same as the Chinese 甲骨文 for sun.

But they, you also don't have prove to say it DOESN'T have relations either.

So it's inconclusive at best.

Oh, the B thing, an English teacher from Oxford told me. I think at first it wasn't even a Roman alphabet, it came from the middle east.

It's more likely that Egyptians and Chinese, who both started out with pictographs ended up having similar character for "sun" because it looks the same to them...

It's very unlikely that say an Egyptian travelled ALL the way to China thousands of years ago in his lifetime and then say "Now hear this! This is how you will all write the character for 'sun'!" or vice versa...

Inconclusive refers to whether such and such character in one language came from so and so character in another language, or vice versa. Not just the B thing.

Languages makes into other languages ALL the time. Han writting made it into Corean and Japanese language. Latin alphabets ended up in even more languages.

I can go look up the B thing, but it is not very difficult to imagine that writting from mesopotamia made its way into Greek then into the Roman writting system.

As for the Egyptian can't travel that far theory... Why not? Don't get me wrong, when I used that example, I used it to say it is probably unlikely for it to happen. But to flat out deny that it could have happened is also not a very good deduction.

All human came from Africa. Egypt was on the edge of Africa. Egyptians had colonies in the Arabia penansula, they definately can travel. Why is it so impossible that the Egyptians could have made it to the Central Plains?

Huang Di himself came to the Central Plains from the Steppes. Perhaps he had a Egyptian advicer, named Chang Jie, who then was ordered to create writting XD

To say that it happened without prove is not logical, but to say that it cannot happen without prove is equally illogical.

Although current evidence suggests that all humans came from Africa, but we must keep in mind that not too long ago we thought otherwise. The point is, new evidence are being dug up all the time so we should not assume what we know now is the ultimate truth.

While it's not impossible, it's EXTREMELY VERY UNLIKELY that Egyptians could've travelled all the way from Africa to China 3,000 - 5,000 years ago. Heck, why would they had want to travel that far? Besides, there are no evidence that such an event occurred.


Now you've gotten away from history and started writing a fiction novel...

It is funny seeing how minorities in China and her neighours never stop claiming to be ancestors of Chinese people. I would call this AQ's spirit.

I am little confused. Needham talks about the Nine Li and three Miao tribes. He also says that they were metalworking co-fraternities and that their totem was the owl,
as well as making use of the Tao Tie. I haven't seen the frog mentioned.

All Hmong are Miao, but not all Miao are Hmong.


The Hmong of Vietnam did not work with the US during the Vietnam War. It was the Hmong of Laos that did.

I know alot of Yao people who do speak Hmong and I know a few Hmong people who do speak Mien.

The Hmong language belongs to the Miao-Yao branch of the Sino-Tibetan family of languages.

There are three major dialect spoken among the Hmong/Miao of the world today.

Hehe, actually, I would call your post Ah-Q's Spirit.