I wouldn't want to be called Miao only because it would feel uncomfortable having internalized myself as a Hmong since day one of my life. I could care less if others wish to be called "Mong, Meo, or Miao." Hmong Americans (like myself) claim that the term "Miao" is derogative only because that is what we have learned in textbooks. I'm realizing that the Hmong in China embrace their identity as "Miao." So how did the term Hmong come about and why is it derogative?

Please don't attach too much importance to the literal meaning of 'miao' when dealing with 'miao' as an ethnicity. When a word is used as a name, it lose it's literal meaning.



I fail to see the logic of this, just because chinese recorded the presence of hmongs doesn't mean chinese were new comers themselves. This only shows that both chinese and homgs were there at that time, who knows what happened before it.

About where the name 'miao' came from, I tend to think that 'miao' could be the real name of hmong people, and 'hmong' is probably invented later by hmongs outside china. Chinese history book recored 'miao', and I think it is how hmong people called themselves at that time, after all, the same book recored the correct name of 'chi you', which is used by hmong people themselfs.

Then where is the Miao in this?.... their is only Hmong?... though they are the same thing
the Names were change?..... Our original name has disappear in the southern Indochina region.
recently the name Hmong was appointed by our infamous General, Vang Pao.

We have loss our original ethnic name, our language... our pride.... we ran and did not fight...
and even more embrassing.... we loss our identity as Miao....
we ran from our fear....

when I stated that we loss in survival of the fittess.... **my faults at most** I should had mention Mentally...
Not physically.

Not from textbook... from the elders you mean?...
You believe that the term is a insult to the Miao ethnic... but it was ourselves that gave our own ethnic that name....

I am Hmong/American... and I can care less is my ancestor were Miao... therefore I am Miao, Hmong, whatever...

Oh by the way the term Hmong was formed by Our infamous General Vang Pao... during the great struggle in Indochina... during a meeting with Colonel Billy.... Vang Pao insisted that they be call Hmong... Instead of Meo.

Crap my post didn't Join... my first reply is the last one on the page 14.

Hmmm... all of this coming from someone who used to spew Hmong nationalistic sentiments and propaganda all over Hmong web forums? If I didn't know any better, I'd think that you were someone else prancing around pretending to be JB Xyooj.

You may have given up but the rest of us have not. We're still fighting, still standing strong. We haven't lost a d**** thing. You may have lost your pride, but then again you do not speak for the rest of us. And as far as I'm aware, we called ourselves Hmong long before we left China. If you want to get a better understanding of your roots then I suggest you try searching for your family in China because they are the missing link.

If you have not heard... that time change people... as people grow older they realize the inveitable from reality... to agree with the disagree... simple... I would rather find it hard that I was so feverous over a futile idealogy yet alone rally support for a cause that never rallied the many.

Given up on what?... their have never been a day in my life that I gave up
my sentiment for the Chao fa's, ... So I ask what are you fighting for?.... what pride do you have to defend for?
if your so prudent of believing that we were originally long been called Hmong before leaving China... Do so and find that fact and prove me wrong....

clearly I assure you that it was during the Indochina struggle that the Miao in SE.Asia was name Hmong...
You provide your fact and I shall provide mine...

I need not know the whole root of my originallity....

JB Xyooj,

We Hmong did survive history. That is what you have to realize.

In any group of people, there are always those who see the truth and those
who are ignorant. Then there are those who are un-educated, or don't know
any better. And there are those who take advantage of opportunities.....whether
its good or bad. Its all human nature. My problem is when people, especially our very
own people say that those types of bahavior or attitude is confine to only the
hmong people. Those traits are universal in people. You have to see that one person, or one
action does not define a whole race/ethnic group. That's just ignorant.

You need to focus on the positives. Don't let the negative people tear our progress.
In every group, there are always the bad apples, and they make the most noise. But those
people come and go. All they are is TALK, and we all know that TALK is CHEAP.
Its the people who take ACTION and LIVE LIFE that matters. The ones who last are those that make progress in life.

Also, just b/c we don't have a country to our name does not mean we are nothing or unworthy.
That's just stupid. In the world today, there are over 700 ethnic groups of people sharing 180 nations.
We are not the only one w/o a nation.

And for others, don't focus too much attention on our origins.............who cares where exactly we come from. That's breeding grounds for nationalism. We are all humans/people and we share this earth together. All that matters is that we are here TODAY and where we are going TOMORROW!!!!!

I recently read that by 2050, the people of earth need 2 earths in order to sustain our current levels of survival. Now that's a deep question you haven't thought about haven't you? As we move beyond that, it becomes a question of survival for humanity. In case anyone is wondering, WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER.
In order for our VERY OWN CHILDREN TODAY, BORN TODAY to survive beyond that, we all need to learn to get along................or we are HISTORY.....EXTINCT. I don't care if you are American, African, Chinese, Hmong, Jews, Kurds, or French................all of our survival depend on it!!!!!

Now what are you going to do about it? That's the question....

MiaoHmong... I cannot but agree with you on your statement....
and I can see where your comming from. But lets not be to hasty to make this topic
stray from its true meaning.

We may have survive History, but through what?... Bloodshed... Morale decree?
as I stated... we did lose and loss in a mental state, if not physically.

just a reminder I have not ever confine my own ethnic to these wrong doing
as merely just discussing the topic... and the ethnic mention in the topic.
we aren't the only ethnic with these same ordeal, but just being polite to the topic.

my time is running short, and my class is almost over... but to clarify one thing for you.

"I do not need a positive nor a negative to decide for me.... It is the TRUTH... that choose the words I write and say... It is not a individual.... it is a percentage."

really? i have heard of hmongs claiming this a lot,but never have i ever seen a actual pic yet


why dont you post pics of your blonde haired blue eyed cousins?so we can varify it. i mean i can just say the samething without pics to support it,noone will ever know is real or not.

I don't understand why people want to be "white" so much. Having blond hair and blue eyes doesn't mean jack!!!!! Its a genetic thing with certain family trees that happen in certain generations and skips certain generations........otherwise known as an Albino Gene. It in NO SHAPE OR FORM mean that you had European Ancestors................that's just absurd.

Be proud of you who are and where you come from. Don't try to be something you are not......b/c it shows your true colors as an individual.

Hmong people are not the only people in the world with an Albino gene..............get over it already.

sorry J.B. Xyooj..............I didn't mean to put you on the spot before. I just think that we hmong have a lot of good things going for us. We shouldn't feel down about it. We should be proud.

About the negative things that we hear about everyday........I hear you on that, but those actions are only of those individuals (there are a lot of idiots out there, young and old). Its not like a mass epidemic confined within the hmong ethnicity. When you think about history and all that stuff.....yeah, its sad. But you have to rationalize that "when you have number, you also have power." I think Mao Zedong said that. Its true to a certain extent. Look, there are 700 plus groups of people on earth, the ones with the most population are usually the rulers.......that's 90% of the case.

hope that clarifies................

Before you butcher my own statement, and put random assumption in my mouth
I never intended to feel down about my own culture or ethnic....

The Negative conception does not deal with an individual... as stated before its a percentage...
and this percentage is the Majority... believe me?.. No?... Do a documentry on as many of these Hmong
community as you can... you'll have at least a 90% chance of encounter the same ideals.


it isn't the matter of who gets to rule the world... its the matter of the strong conquering the weak.
And as far as I'm concern our ethnic is part of the below food chain system... **those in the states of course.**

You seriously want to know what I'm fighting for? I'll tell you. I'm fighting for my elderly uncle whom in 1995 was dragged from his home in broad daylight by LPDR soldiers, only to be found two days later and five miles down the road, dead... shot in the back of his head. I'm fighting for my great grandmother who died a peaceful death at the age of 94 here in America, only after joining the Chao Fa resistance at the age of 60 and fighting alongside them for 15 years until she was captured and sent to a Laotian political re-education camp. I'm fighting for my father's younger brother who was wrongly accused of supplying arms and food for a terrorist network and sentenced to 25 years in prison. I'm fighting for my nieces and nephews who will never know what it means to truly be free, who will be a target for persecution and discrimination wherever they go for the rest of their lives. I'm also fighting for the likes of Krachang Sakbaiuenchaikoon, Bounmy Phong Xiong, Norneng Yang, Seng Xiong Yang, Khamchai Her, Chao Kue, Vithaya Yang, Pichaiyonht Visootheckoon Chai... only to name a few. Do you even know who these people are?


The term "Hmong" is a self-designation. If this self-designation is isolated and only occurs within the "Miao" population outside of China, then why does the "Miao" population of southern Sichuan, western Guizhou and southern Yunnan call themselves "Hmong" and "Meng" as well? It has been more than 200 years since our people first started to migrate out of China. If we designated ourselves as "Hmong" after we left China, then how did the "Miao" people of southern Sichuan, western Guizhou and southern Yunnan come to know that term, let alone call themselves by it as well?


And according to you, the name "Hmong" was given to us by General Vang Pao. If that is true, then where did General Vang Pao come up with the idea for our self-designation? And prior to General Vang Pao labeling us as "Hmong" what did we call ourselves before that. Was a lottery held and our self-designating name was pulled from a bowl?

And how do you plan to fight?... By crying me a story of your sad little life?... Perhaps it could be you telling me the truth... perhaps you could be telling me a lie.... for all we know your attempts to make it sound sad... or perhaps you are telling the truth... what so ever... you aren't the only one that suffer losses.... To grieve and make your own story a crutch.... to defend your position in a crybaby manner.... make me a change... noooo... make your whole ethnic a change.... convince the masses... I loss my grandfather... but that doens't mean I go telling people of how sad it is.. or how he died... in that simple manner... Remeber storys don't win support in anyways the less make you look like a cry baby.... The story did not win the heart of the majority to reah out to our ethnic.... remeber when they boardcast these little video tapes on the network.... of course.

Don't bring in that bullcrap that you are fighting for losses relative, or people who will never see the war...
Cause you are not the only one that loss love one... But put it this way.... the past is the past...
defend what is now.

So you say you fight for people that you stated... names are worthless on the battlefield... as Snake has pointed out in MGS **game... don't ask why.... It fits the ideal** A Name doesn't matter when a part of a group is isolated and being hunted down like animal.... You need not know their name.... yet you not even heard of it... You just do the right thing.... you don't just single out certain individual and claim to be fighting for them.... clearly assure I can say that I am fighting for Moua Toua Ter group... Yet I don't even know them... what does that make me sound like?... a Sap....



And perhaps your right... Perhaps the Term Hmong did originated before Vang Pao time and the Indochina war time... and I can't argue on that with you.... that I must humbly agree to.... with no shame... and no resentment.... So by all means I stand corrected at that statement of the Miao and Hmong terminal names.

deleted

Just curious about a couple things...

What are the Hmong called in their respective home countries of Southeast Asia? I suspect that the Hmong are also called something similar to 'Miao' in Thai/Vietnamese/etc.

The reason I ask this question is because it would seem strange that the Han would just 'invent' a name for the Hmong - unless the Hmong did not have a self-designated name. If Hmong were the self-designated name, the Han would give them a name that is similar in pronunciation. (Look at the Mongols, Manchus, Turkuts, etc. All Chinese-given names to these ethnic groups reflect the pronunciation of their self-designation...)

But since the Han chose 'Miao' as the designated name for the Hmong, it must have reflected what the Hmong called themselves ('Miao'). If the Vietnamese and Thai also call the Hmong as something similar to 'Miao' then we are even more sure that the Hmong originally called themselves a name similar to Miao.

Also, I believe only a very *small* percentage of the Miao in China call themselves Hmong.

Maybe it's not the good place , but since you askto... ..
I really enjoy this song , but i wonder what the lyrics mean. Would you - or another Hmong speaker - be kind enough to explain ? Thx.

That's a cute song, but I think it's better left untranslated because it would completely lose it's meaning.

On another note, these are some of my favorites:

http://www.youtube.com/v/KrUJgj_Yrl0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELKNqGbxMy8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfu8dpfVOu0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c3UiRWkJnw

It in terms from history books and documentrys... In SE.Asia the Hmongs are refered as Meo....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfu8dpfVOu0

A commentary found on one of your favourites : "this song is so emotional! the lyrics are great and so deep in feelings... i love it...*sniff* tissue please..." Thx for adding to my frustration...
(i'm joking)

The next question I would ask is whether these terms were influenced by the Han. If not, then there is a possibility that the SE Asians designated a name similar to what the Hmong historically called themselves.

supposedly, in lao and thai, the word miao did not exist. so they called them Ba Meo which is considered by many Hmong to be insulting. one can say that it is the equivalent of calling an African-American in the United States of America, a [slanderous word edited--Publius].

one word...pwnage.

I'm quite puzzled at that as well... But seeing so that the Laotain, Vietnamese, and Thai all call us MEO
the name itself is quite simular to Miao.

But I do not know where the term Hmong originated from.. as far as I'm concern the only time I ever heard that mention in history is during the Indo-China war.




sounds kind of racist don't you think?

I found this article (not sure about its credibility) while browsing the Internet. The author posits that the term 'Hmong' is only used by a branch of the Miao, the majority of which, migrated to the SE Asian countries (and a minority staying behind in Yunnan). If what he says is true, then there are three possibilities worth noting:

The Hmong of SE Asia has mistakenly asserted their own designated name as the name for ALL Miao groups.

The Hmong of SE Asia has purposefully asserted the above.

The Hmong of SE Asia are part of a distinct ethnic group from the Miao and was mistakenly lumped together by Han Chinese since historical times and the name Miao has, through force of habit, been 'stuck' on all groups. The insistence of the Hmong of SE Asia to be called Hmong today is an effort to re-establish and re-assert their distinctiveness from the rest of the 'Miao' groups.

http://www.peopleteams.com/miao/MiaoHmong.htm

i do have some scholarly texts that i've dug up recently on the hmong/miao in china.

it states that 2.5 million of the miao call themselves hmong in china, but when i have the time, i'll put the articles up though i have to type them since they are photocopies for a social history class on the Hmong community in the US of A.







i assuming you're hmong, right? well, ask your parents or any of the elders about the term "BA MEO."
i'm sure you'll get an answer and when you do, could you tell us about it?

Hmmm Perhaps soo... Its a possiblity.... but that issue was only brought up when the American CIA Allie called Vang Pao Militia Meo.... Vang Pao himself insist that from that point on they be call HMONG...
-Jame Merrit Hamliton, Tragic Mountain.

what ever the case... I do believe that the first option is more agreeable.... **my opinion**
I'll take a look further into it.




I understand that its a degrading term.... being stuck with story for 18 years of my life
has clarify that for me. Plus reading Tragic Mountain also gave me exculsive detail on racist pursue on the Miao/Hmong community within the Laotain border, or should I say throughout all SE.Asia.

Well i think that G.Vang Pao didn't all of the sudden gave Hmong ppl the name "Hmong". I'm pretty sure that that's how Hmong ppl had always called themselves. There's Hmong ppl in China who goes by Hmong, which doesnt make sense if G.Vang Pao created the name Hmong and every Miao ppl in China started calling themselves Hmong. Maybe G. Vang Pao wanted ppl to call Hmong Hmong because everyone kept using the unwanted name Miao or Meo. Because Hmong ppl are Hilltribes and don't interact as much with other nationallity, their name Hmong, is not as easliy spread as Miao. For example, Hmong ppl crosses into Vietnam and stayed in the Mountains. The Vietnemesse would be like "so who are those weirdos?" Then the Chinese would be like, "O their Miaos". I don't know, this is just my thoughts on it. It's not fact or anything.

I thought you guys would like this if you haven't see it.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxJPNJpZSMw

I don't trust documentry made on Hmong people by local Hmong nationalist...
its just... You know uncredible... you understand.

I wouldn't say Miao is a unwanted name, just look no further then the Hunan and Guizhou province
they do not assume it as a degrading term what-so-ever...
for some reason I believe that the term Hmong was later spread into the chinese region after many of the non-Mainland Hmong began promoting the use of the word Hmong... instead of Miao.... well my opinion.. You understand.

I want to make one thing clear....

HMONG PEOPLE WERE NEVER BLONDE HAIRED... OR HAD BLUE EYES!!

Whoever told you that... have no actual evidence to back up such claims

the word miao is not a new word to the lao and tai. we have known the hmong as miew which is a variation of miao since our days in china. our relatives in china still call the hmong miew also. miew does not mean anything in lao besides the miew/hmong racial group. is it coincidence that chinese say miao, lao say miew, and vietnamese say meo? it does not make any sense for one people group to name another people group the cat people and have no other name for them. heard many hmongs claiming that the word miew means cat and also nig**r?? the lao/tai language is tonal, miew and miew at different tones can mean cat and hmong. it would not make any sense for lao people to call miew people cat?? it sounds very weird when spoken in lao in that way and does not make sense if it is to be used as a bad term. besides, cat is not a bad word in lao at all but dog is. when cursing and putting others down calling people dog is #1.

as for Ba meo i dont know what you are referring to. most likely you're talking about the word bac-miew. bac is a classifier for him just as ee is a classifier for her. you might hear alot of lao refer to other male as bac lao or bac thai. you cannot call any person without adding the classifer bac. when refer to a viet we say bac viet, chinese bac-chiin and hmong as bac hmong or bac miew...

westerners or illiterate countryside elders are giving the word miew the wrong definition. lao people are not that stupid and backwards going around calling people nig**s?? go to vientiane and see how successful and wealthy the hmongs are in business. the hmongs are the wealthiest minorities in laos and that does not happen if their is racial discrimination.

peace and huk pang(love eachothers)

what are you talking about?? please dont call it a racist persuit because that is not what is going on. have you ever been to laos?? got to vieng-chan, luang pa bang, xieng guang and see who are the richest minorities in laos?? the miew/hmong are extremely successful. you talk as if there is a genocide going on and the lao people are putting the miew/hmong in gas chambers! have you ever asked yourself why is it only the miew/hmong chao-fa being hunted down and not other hmongs around the country? in america we call people with army of anti-government that are being politically controlled by outside foreign forces terrorist. why is gvp still trying to fight a war that was over decades ago?? he is still dividing our people and country. gvp is using the last remnants of the vietnam era fighters for his own agenda so he can maintain his power with the hmongs. without a war there is no money flow coming in from donations. he pockets this money and start businesses and get more wives at the sacrifice of the chao-fa fighters. the chao-fa fighters are so out of touch with the world that they still think the cia is still coming to save them.

There is racial discrimination towards Chinese in Indonesia, so how come the stereotype that most Chinese in Indonesia are rich is still there?
Well, maybe it's not as extreme as you might think. But there were people who went around and did ethnic cleansing.

BTW, I think only in Vietnamese "cat" and (old term for) "Hmong" have the same sound, "mèo".
Although the Chinese writing shows that 苗 is similar in sound with 貓, but that does not mean they are pronounced the same. In fact in Modern Mandarin and Cantonese they are not the same. But somehow Sino-Vietnamese, Sino-Korean and Sino-Japanese seem to have same sound for them

meo is said at a high tone in laos to refer to the hmong ethnic while meo for cat is low and drops. if you're a lao or thai speaker you would know that calling someone cat makes no sense. its like saying your "ethnic is a goose people??" whats the point? but if you say dog then that is bad. dog is maa. the lao people have never had history of discriminating, or genocide. we dont get into that purity like whites do...

indonesia is not laos the conflict is laos is totally different and does not regard the general lao and hmong population but the chao-fa anti-government fighters who are loyal to general vang pang who is loyal to the lao king in exile. it is not about who is rich or poor i was just simply stating that the hmong can be fairly wealthy by minority standards compared to other minorities. what goes on in indonesia is about jealousy and envy. in laos it is about royal lao government forces still trying to win a war that has been lost decades ago.

the lao king in exile with gvp have been trying to overthrow the lpdr dreaming of the day to come back to power. a couple years ago they directed the lao faction of the chao-fa to do the vang-tao raid and they were all killed. the chao-fa fighters are remnants of the old war. there has never been conflicts between the hmong and lao people general population, we have coexisted for hundreds of years. the lao and hmong people are here in america for the same reason, nothing different. Is there any government in the world that tolerates armed rebellion--especially when it has been financed and possibly directed by external forces? will the PRC tolerate an anti-government rebellion from the zhuangs?? financed by zhuangs in thailand?

vietnamese and lao people call the hmong almost the same way. i do not know how to spell it proper with the tone.

this reminds me of how the cambodians said the lao term for cambodians "khamein" means stinky slave?? some koreans that said the lao term kao-lee(korean) really meant inchy/scratch pussy in laos.?? names of ethnics are usually a variation of their true name. read the story below and you will understand this conflict is not only about the hmong but also the lao freedom fighters who are connected. the lao people are assasinated across the border in thailand by lpdr agents daily because that is where the main center for planning is to overthrow the lpdr. the most recent killing was of a husband and wife who claimed to be descendants of a lao king.






General Vang Pao and his problems--interesting reading

http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5488982.html

Last update: July 3, 2005 at 6:10 PM Special Report: Reality gets in the way of loyalty to general Tony Kennedy and Paul McEnroe, Star Tribune July 4, 2005 Every month for many years a man came knocking at Blia Yang Vang's door on St. Paul's East Side. And every month Blia Yang Vang handed the man at least $50 in cash. No matter how tight things got around the house, Blia Vang doesn't think he ever missed a payment.



Blia Vang never knew exactly where the money went, other than that it was earmarked for Neo Hom, the vast Hmong network in the United States headed in part by Gen. Vang Pao. Beyond that, all he knew was that Vang Pao needed the money, and so he gave it, no questions asked.

His loyalty to the general still runs deep. "If they want it, you have to give it to them," he said last month, speaking through a translator.

The payments, he says he was told, guaranteed him the rank of general in Laos once Neo Hom overthrows the Communist government and the Hmong return to their homeland.

Blia Yang VangJoey McleisterStar TribuneEven though he thinks he is to be a top commander, Blia Vang can neither read nor write. He is now in his 60s and physically frail. He didn't know how many men he would command or where he would be assigned. But the man who collected the money gave him two official-looking certificates written in Lao. Blia Vang says the collector told him the certificates guarantee that he'll be a general someday. His photograph is glued to the bottom of each one, near an official stamp and the signature of Gen. Vang Pao himself.

"They issued you the certificate, so you have to be proud," he said.

Over the years, he said, one of his sons confronted him about the payments. "He asked me, 'Why not spend the money to buy food?' and I say nothing," Blia Vang said. He added that the collectors have stopped coming around and he no longer makes payments.

As a warrior in exile, Vang Pao has spent decades in the United States as a political evangelist asking for cash from thousands of refugees like Blia Yang Vang. According to authorities who have investigated the Neo Hom network, Vang Pao has allegedly threatened refugees financially and threatened to prevent them from ever returning home -- refugees such as Blia Vang, who are growing old in the United States far from their homes in Laos.

Vang Pao wouldn't be interviewed for this series. But his son Cha Vang denied that Hmong are pressured to contribute to Neo Hom.

"Nobody gives unless they have some personal interest," Cha Vang said. "Nobody is coerced. My father's not going around demanding money."

Blia Vang and Vang Pao shared the same dream of getting back to Laos.

As refugees, Blia Vang and others looked to their leader to get them back home. But when Vang Pao was flown out of Long Cheng in May 1975, his command structure was in shambles. Trusted aides were spread out across the world -- in Thailand, France, Australia and the United States.

His private life had changed dramatically, too. He arrived in the U.S. on July 5, 1975, and ended up living on a ranch outside Missoula, Mont., near where his CIA contact Jerry Daniels grew up.

U.S. law forced Vang Pao to divorce all but one of his many wives. In his early years in Montana, he sought solace in the Bitteroot and Sapphire mountains, hunting elk and deer alone. Other times, he took his family on camping trips into the rugged terrain, sometimes riding out to a hunt on the back seat of a Yamaha motorcycle driven by a family member. It was everyone's time to regroup and tell the old stories to the children.

But Vang Pao remained focused on the fate of his homeland. His next step was figuring out how to get back there.

The rise of Neo Hom

By the end of the 1970s, Vang Pao was ready to reassert his influence on Hmong politics. He lost the 400-acre Montana ranch because he didn't know how to farm in such a harsh climate. He and his family resettled in California, which already had a large Hmong population. Montana court records show that in 1986 he was more than $170,000 in debt.

Still, he held onto his dream that some day he would lead his people back to a free Laos and the lush mountains of their ancestors.

In the early 1980s, he and a group of allies formed a closely-guarded network that he hoped would fulfill that goal. Neo Hom's purpose was to aid insurgents who had remained in Laos to continue the fight and overthrow the Communists.

The group's organizers came up with a plan -- they would sell military and civil service ranks to refugees, former Neo Hom members said in interviews.

If a refugee such as Blia Vang could make a down payment and keep current on lower monthly payments, he was promised that he could become a leader some day back home in a free Laos. It didn't matter if he had never held a command position before. All that mattered was coming up with the cash.

They worked out a system: City by city and district by district, Neo Hom representatives were assigned geographical areas from which to collect money by going house to house.

Over time, the organization raised millions of dollars, made in small individual cash payments, say authorities who have interviewed Neo Hom members.

Phil Smith, executive director of Lao Veterans of America, estimated that at one time Neo Hom was raising at least $50,000 a month this way. And without a paper trail, he said, there was no way to prove how the money was spent.

Smith said he knew firsthand that some of the money early on helped get some Hmong out of remote provinces in Laos. The money was used for bribes to get people across the Mekong River and into Thai refugee camps.

But as the years went by and with large sums not accounted for, Smith asks: "Where are VP's base camps? Show me your weapons, your money.

"There is the sense that the money has been used privately. We know it's not getting to the field, civilians in the villages."

Still, until the last year, Hmong kept the faith.

Just as it is common to find a portrait of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. in a black home, or a portrait of John F. Kennedy or the Pope in an Irish home, it became common for Vang Pao's followers to hang his photo on their living room wall. And next to the portrait, often, was a framed certificate, proof of the rank they had paid for and would hold when they all returned to Laos.

"A vast movement"

Many of the qualities that made Vang Pao so skillful in battle made him successful in Neo Hom. California agencies that investigated Neo Hom found that Vang Pao used strong-arm tactics, superb organization and personal charisma to get money from refugees.

The main Neo Hom fundraising organization was called the United Lao National Liberation Front. It was formed in 1981 to "resist foreign oppression on behalf of the Lao ... people who are pursuing the fight for peace ... and independence," according to its manifesto.

Ten years later, victory was still not in sight and more money was needed. In a 1991 document signed by Vang Pao on behalf of another group, the National Liberation Front of Laos, he urged followers to raise $500,000 for work "in the front line ... to cover the plan we have promised."

According to the document, military ranks were priced according to levels of command. For instance, $1,200 would buy the rank of general. A lieutenant general would cost $1,000; a major general $800; a colonel $500, and at the bottom a captain would pay $50.

Detractors, including Vang Pao's former son-in-law, Tou Long Lo, of Fresno, Calif., say the lack of financial accountability over the years has caught up with Vang Pao and his group.

"He did it only to make money," Lo said. "He knows it's impossible."

Lo said he was once involved in Neo Hom but dropped out. He became disgruntled in part, he said, after he saw how the organization pressured Hmong immigrant families to turn over money that should have been spent on their own families.

"Parents pay for rank out of welfare checks," he said. "Kids have nothing to eat."

Embezzlement

To help Hmong refugees navigate America's social service agencies, Vang Pao founded Lao Family and Community Inc., a California nonprofit. It eventually branched out to Minnesota, Wisconsin, and elsewhere.

Lao Family became a front for Neo Hom activities and its finances became entangled with Neo Hom's, investigators found. In California, Lao Family and Community was accused by the state attorney general's office of stealing money from refugees for Vang Pao's cause.

In 1990, the California authorities began investigating charges that refugees were shaken down for contributions to Neo Hom as a condition of receiving social services. Kao Thao -- Vang Pao's son-in-law and then-executive director of the California Lao Family -- was charged with misappropriating public monies, embezzlement and grand theft.

Kao Thao eventually pleaded guilty to embezzling more than $70,000 from the agency. Thao, according to reports, had shared an office with Neo Hom members a few doors from the Lao Family headquarters in Garden Grove, Calif. Investigators from the attorney general's office found that one of Thao's file cabinets contained Lao Family case files and budgets in the same drawers as files marked with the Neo Hom logo.

Last fall, Cha Vang, one of the general's 28 children, defended Neo Hom and said that his family has not used contributions for their personal gain. "There's this perception that we're rich," Cha Vang said. But he said that's far from the truth.

Vang Pao received a modest monthly payment from the CIA after moving to the United States, said his translator, Xang Vang. The payments shrank each time one of Vang Pao's children turned 18. Xang Vang said he doesn't know if the general still draws a government check.

And as to whether Hmong immigrants were being misled that there was a chance of returning to a free Laos, Cha Vang said, "I don't know if it's false promises. Everybody wants to go home. Is it false promises to tell everybody we'll give them freedom in Iraq?"

Neo Hom informant

In 1997, a disillusioned Neo Hom insider went to the police. The man told Fresno police that Vang Pao and his associates raised money allegedly through fraud and intimidation.

No charges resulted, but a Fresno police detective told the Star Tribune that the source was extremely credible. In a confidential Fresno police report, the man told how "millions of dollars have been collected from the Hmong people nationwide." He told investigators that Vang Pao's loyalists threatened reluctant families by telling them they'd never be allowed to return to Laos if they didn't put up cash.

He also told authorities that "Neo Hom officials have told people that if anyone reports Neo Hom's activities to the Communists they will be killed."

The informant had fought under Vang Pao, then ended up in a Thai refugee camp before arriving in the U.S. in 1980. Once in Fresno, the report said, he resumed his relationship with Vang Pao by joining Neo Hom and working his way up to "team leader," responsible for monthly collections from 80 families. He said he collected between $1,600 and $4,000 a month.

If a family refused to pay, the man said he would bring in a higher-ranking Neo Hom official, and a "big talk" would take place.

"The talk was amiable and was not meant to frighten," the man told the detective. But he said that Vang Pao's reputation as a "cold-blooded murderer" during the war shadowed conversations.

"His exploits during the Vietnam War, where he was known to personally assassinate individuals, are well-documented," the report said. "Gen. Pao's reputation, especially when talking to family members who refused to donate money, was used to Neo Hom's advantage."

But since the late 1990s, the man said, there has been a backlash.

"The older Laotians ... are getting tired of his 'lies' as it's becoming increasingly clear that no one is returning to Laos," the report states. "The younger Laotians, most of whom were born here, consider themselves 'American' and don't support Neo Hom.

"Increasingly, General Pao is viewed more as a 'con man' who is using the monies given to him... for his own personal gain. He's often referred to in Laotian circles as a 'dealer in fraud.' "

The informant said he feared for his life. He was convinced that if Vang Pao knew he was talking to police "he would be eliminated."

Neo Hom defender

Ly Teng of St. Paul, a former colonel in Vang Pao's army who sits in the general's inner circle as a confidant and brother-in-law, said Neo Hom's original intent was to ensure that fighters left behind in Laos weren't forsaken. While he said he wasn't personally involved in sending the money to Laos, he defends Vang Pao's efforts.

"When we came here we saw freedom and democracy and our people were left behind," Teng said. "We needed to do something. It was 'United We Stand.' "

He realized that credibility issues exist when accounting for Neo Hom funds. But he believes the money ended up in Laos and not in the pockets of Neo Hom leaders such as Vang Pao.

"When you give the money, it depends on them [the insurgents in Laos] to decide" how to spend it, Teng said.

For example, the photos he's seen of insurgents show them carrying old rifles from the Vietnam war, an indication that the money was used for something else -- medical supplies, maybe, or food. Smuggling operations to buy those supplies may have sometimes been disrupted by ambushes, he said, and "lost before it gets to the target."

Xang Vang, Vang Pao's interpreter in St. Paul, said Hmong families need to understand that far more money was pledged than was actually raised. He said that large amounts -- he couldn't say how much -- have been spent on diplomatic efforts in Washington, the United Nations and in Europe to lobby for protecting Hmong human rights in Laos.

Former CIA operative Bill Lair said he was aware of the general's fundraising during Neo Hom's early years. Lair was the CIA field agent in Southeast Asia who recruited Vang Pao in 1961 as a covert military commander for the United States.

Lair, who had grown close to Vang Pao in Laos, had wondered why the general had not reached out to him after arriving in the United States. In retrospect, Lair said, he believes it was because Vang Pao was trying to raise money to go back to Laos and fight -- an initiative not supported in Washington.

"I knew it would never work," Lair said. "Hell, you know they ain't never going to go back there. It's stupid for anybody to believe that he could," especially without the support of the United States."

Lionel Rosenblatt, president emeritus of Washington, D.C.-based Refugees International, said the Hmong were left with Vang Pao as their leader almost by default. That's because U.S. government officials abandoned the group of valiant allies even before the secret war ended.

"What's fair to the Hmong has never really been at the top of policymakers' minds," said Rosenblatt, a former U.S. State Department official who dealt with Southeast Asia refugee issues. "You can't look at VP as good, bad or ugly... he was left to seek his own level."

Still dreaming

Dressed in shorts and a golf shirt, Blia Yang Vang sat in the basement, his memory fading and his body frail. He shook a bit.

He asked his wife to find the treasured certificates and she padded off to the bedroom, bringing them back. He looked at the documents and mumbled that he couldn't read what they said.

A translation of a certificate recognizes his pledge "to support the work fighting for the release of the Laotian country. This is your responsibility as a Lao citizen ... so we will be able to get back our independence, democracy, equality. ...Therefore, this award is to thank you for your pledge which you have kept for the country..." Vang Pao is labeled as the head of the committee of the resistance group for the U.S. branch.

Nowhere on the certificate does it specifically promise Blia Vang the rank of general.

Yet he is still waiting to take command, just as when he was a warrant officer in Vang Pao's army. "Whenever the Communists came, we went out," he said.

Did he really believe Vang Pao could succeed at retaking the homeland? He didn't answer.

Still, the dream of returning hasn't left Blia Vang. "If the country is peaceful, sure, I'll go back today," he said.

The writers are at tonyk@startribune.com, 651-298-1543 and

bullocks.... the Chao Fa were never part of the RLA, nor did Vang Pao ever truly reconized them for their galiant effort... If history serves me correct, As I recall from Jame Merrit hamilton "Tragic Mountain."
Vang Pao openly disreguarded the Chao Fa for their diffrence belief... and if correct the Chao Fa agenda differ from Vang Pao Agenda thus rendering Vang Pao to consider them as outcast....

If I am correct Vang Pao has always deluded and shunned the Chao Fa...
but your right about Vang Pao using them as pawn in his gain for power...
can't argue with you on that.

I think JB is confusing himself. We have always called ourselves Hmong, however outsiders have always referred to us as "Miao/Meo." It wasn't until the war that outsiders started calling us Hmong, as a result of Dr. Yang Dao being peeved by a western journalist's constant reference to us as "Meo." Dr. Yang Dao then asked that we be referred to as "Hmong" from that point forward.

i agree that the blue eyes thing is BS.

however, hmong people with blonde hair is for real. i used to date one and one of my aunts has it. it isn't blonde like caucasians. it's more of a dirty/brownish blonde. i want to say that they are albino, but they're really not. "blonde" hair is a recessive gene.

i can't believe you've never seen them around?

I seen them... Use to have a neighbor that had blonde hair and brown eyes... kinda gold like color.
But I do not believe that a large porportion was blonde haired. as stated its perhaps a default in recessive gene.

Say's who?... though Dr. Yang Dao may have a Ph.D and so forth... I still do not believe such crediblity till I seen cold facts.

forgive me jb, im not a expert. chao fa, vang pao and the many other fighters somehow coordinate together. whether loyal to rla or not. im truly sorry and sad, as in all wars the civilians suffer because of selfish men. to call the current conflict genocide is dangerous and reckless. im not a lpdr fan either but i think the country of laos does not need anymore wars that will set us back further into the stoneage. cant we change laos another way instead of war? maybe we should slowly infultrate into government positions and slowly change their way of thinking/ideaology.

i respect gvp, was a great man and others but i believe that they are power greedy and no longer fighting for whats right. they've lost touch with reality and are stuck back in the old barbaric days. its 2006 and we need new agendas, new plans , economic plans. the war is a suicide, how can we ever win with the vietnamese also helping their little puppy lpdr? its over and i think gvp should be the bigger man and lend his hand out so the country of laos can unite and be one and move forward for the good of all lao ethnics(lao sung, lao loum, lao tung).





dr yang dao is the man, he is a very good man... thank you for clarifying, as of now i will call the hmong in laos hmong or lao suung(lao of the highlands) and i will call the hmong in china miao/meo.



heres a photo of a blond hair lao guy, he might be hmong. he's an albino


two very close friend of my father was recently murdered in ne thailand. they were from portland as like myself. he was nothing but an old border police in the old days and was just visiting relatives in thailand and laos. he was on the way back home to portland. the lpdr need to stop these assinations of the lao people in ne thailand. they have hitsquads everywhere. we cant say for sure that it was lpdr because no evidence but these killings all look the same. like most lao and hmong we usually visit thailand and then visit laos the lao government look at this very close as if we are up to something. the thai government also have a treaty with laos and sellout people. the lpdr are ruthless animals. this man and his friend were not a threat at all! they never claimed to be prince or kings. i use to go to school with his daughter wendy...may there soals rest in peace forever...

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/wor...401355.html(the thai media like to point fingers very fast)

http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/region...page=1#continue


Dec. 13, 2006, 11:54PM
Thai TV: 2 Laotian-American men killed


By GRANT PECK Associated Press Writer
© 2006 The Associated Press

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BANGKOK, Thailand — Two Laotian-American men were shot to death Wednesday at a bus station in northeastern Thailand after returning from a trip to Laos, and Thai police suspect a political connection to the killings, a Thai television station reported.

According to iTV, police suspected the men were killed because of possible links to a group opposed to the government of Laos, a single-party communist state.

The two men from Oregon, who claimed to be related to one of the now-defunct Lao royal families, used the names Thao Somvang and Thao Soukanh, the iTV television network said. It cited Karuna Chokpreecha, Thao Somvang's wife, who witnessed the killings in Ubon Rachathani, 300 miles northeast of Bangkok.

"Thao" is a Laotian honorific roughly equivalent to "prince."

The pair were shot by a man wearing a black hat as they waited to pick up their luggage after arriving by bus with four companions from the southern Lao province of Champassak, iTV reported. The men had arrived in Thailand on Oct. 17 and were scheduled to catch a flight back to the United States on Thursday.

The TV station showed a picture of an Oregon driver's license belonging to one of the victims, identifying him as Soukanh Visathep of Johnson City, born in 1942. The second dead man was not clearly identified in the report.

Police with knowledge of the case could not be reached late Wednesday by The Associated Press.

The case appeared similar to one in January in which a Laotian-American couple were shot dead in Nong Khai, another northeastern Thai town near the border with Laos.

Anouwong and Oulayvanh Sethathirath also had claimed to be descendants of a Laotian royal family, and apparently had contacts with some Laotian anti-government groups. They were known in their hometown of Fairview, N.C., as Phillip and Ashley McRowan.

In May, Thai police arrested Athit Klinchana, a suspected Thai hit man, who told them he was hired by the Laotian government to assassinate its opponents, including the McRowans. He allegedly said he was paid $2,600 for each assassination.

During interrogation, police said they found he was linked to at least seven other killings.

The Laotian government denied involvement.

In Vietnamese, mèo (cat) is in low tone. I think the H'Mông was originally called Mèo (also with low tone).

Sometimes is a true name of other ethnic (confused because of some similarity). Can also be name of a state.
One large difference between Mèo and Hmong is the -ng sound.

If the term "Hmong" is new, then how do you explain the Miao people in China who call themselves Hmong?

A blond-haired Black Hmong (Hmoob Dub) woman from Vietnam:



A dirty blond-haired Hmong child from Thailand:



Black and white photo of Hmong girl from Laos. It's obvious her hair isn't black.



Brown-haired Black Hmong girl from Vietnam:



Hmong boy with light-colored hair:

And their only a small portion of them within the southern Chinese province that do call themselves Hmong...
Majority of them from Guizhou to Hunan call themselve Miao.

They don't call themselves Miao. "Miao" is what the Chinese call them. They have their own self-designated names.

The Miao people in west Hunan call themselves Ghao Xong.
The Miao people in southeast Guizhou call themselves Hmu and Gha Ne.
The Miao people in northwest Guizhou and northeast Yunnan call themselves A Hmao.
And those in west Guizhou, south Sichuan and south Yunnan call themselves Hmong.

Hmmm I can't argue on this... due to the fact that I lack any further fact to even argue with.. so i'll have to look up on that a tab bit more...

Assuming the above is true:

(1) How are all these people related? And what term would they use to designate the larger overarching interrelated group?
(2) Would the Ghao Xong, Hmu/Gha Ne, and A Hmao agree to being grouped into a self-designated term - 'Hmong'?

Since Hmong is used as a self-designated term for only 1 out of the 4 large groups of this related people, there is really no politically-neutral self-designated term they can use as a group. Miao seems to be as good as any other, especially since it has been in usage for millenia, has no negative connotations, and is an approximation of 'Hmu' and 'A Hmao'

For some reason, Miao/Hmong tend to think that the term 'Miao' is derogative or carries negative connotations, when in fact, 'Miao' like many other terms for Southern minorities, is meaning-neutral. (Compare with the characters in Northern ethnicity designations: 蒙古 Menggu (Mongol) [lit: cover/deceive/cheat for generations] 鮮卑 Xianbei [lit. Freshly vulgar/inferior] 匈奴 Xiongnu [lit. Breast-Slaves] 女真 Nuzhen (Jurchen) [lit. Female-True]
In contrast, 苗 Miao just means a 'plant sprout'

Hmmm, interesting that you brought up the Character Ji You. I think when I was browsing some Korean sources online I came across a mythical Character named Chi You, who was believed to be the Ancestor of the Koreans. How is it that both the Hmongs and Koreans find a common ancestor??!!

STop being Such a Noob!!
LOL!! Help!! I'm in a Noob Zoo!!!

Ok, sorry, unless you're an avid computer gamer, you probably won't understand this joke.

LMAO!!!... Noob Zoo.. Never thought of that... LMAO... but Nyoob Zoo does mean Hello in the Hmong Romanize language.. **shrugs** Heh heh.. Noob Zoo... gotta write that one down for Urbandictionary.

Good to see that you have a sense of humor. Theres still hope for you yet brother!!