lol

They just "started to appear"?


No kidding.
It's almost like the whole population of Eastern Asia except the Chinese themselves came from the Huang He valley, if you believe those stories.

Hmong nationalists even claim that Chu kingdom was not Han, but a Hmong/Miao ethnicity. I don't know where they get that claim, but it is certain that Chu had many minority subject peoples.

Chinese (Han) forget that we are not just descendants of Huangdi and Yandi. Chiyou is in our bloodlines too. When Huangdi slained Chiyou, he made up a story that Chiyou was diefied and became a god so as to calm the people. Many people continued to worship Chiyou as a god. Qin Shihuangdi and Liu Bang had worshipped Chiyou.

Hmong/Miao are our Sino-Tibetan cousins through Chiyou. It's unfortunate we have this violent history with each other.

Question. Are Mien same as Miao/Hmong? I know this guy who said he's a "mien" and from Laos. However he said his ancesters were from China. I don't know if it's same as Miao?

tongneng,

Hmong and Mien are two different groups of people. The languages of the Miao/Hmong and Mien people belong to the same branch of the Sino-Tibetan family of languages. They have co-existed for many centuries, first in China and then southeast Asia.

It is believed that the Mien people originated somewhere in the mountain regions near the former Tibetan-Chinese border, whereas the Hmong/Miao are said to have originated in Siberia.

Mien


Hmong Tuam Tshoj


On another note, it is said that the Mien people are descended from Phan Hu (a dog) and a princess. It's interesting that Phan Hu also appears in Hmong legends and myths. Wu Rong-zhen writes in his book "Hais Hmoob Liv Xwm" txog zaj kwv huam txog Phaj hub:

"Ceem Tshoj (Jing Chao) tau muab kwv huam Phaj Hub cim rau hauv nws ob phau ntawv hu ua: "Nrhiav dab" thiab "Ceem Tshoj 100 xyoo".

Phau ntawv nrhiav dab tau sau tseg tias: Poj huab Tais Kob Xeeb mob pob ntseg nyob hauv Huab Tais llog. Kws tshuaj phais, rho tau ib tus kab luaj lub lwg kab, muab xwv hauv hub, nqa lub phaj mus khwb, txawm daug tau ib tus dev, tis npe ua "Phaj Hub".

Lub caij ntawd teb chaws Chees Zooj vam meej heev thiab tuaj tau rog ntau zaus rau ntug nrim. Li ntawd Huab Tais cog lus tseg tias leej twg muaj peev xwm muab tau Chees Zooj tus no lub taub hau, yuav pub ib txhiab lag kub, tu teb chaws ib ntsug ru thiab tseem yuav muab Huab Tais tus ntxhais phij cuam rau.

Tom qab no dev Phaj Hub tau mus kwv tau ib lub taub hau tib neeg los tso rau ntawm Huab Tais chaw. Huab Tais mus tshawb saib, ua ciav yog Chees Zooj tus nom hu ua "Vwj Cab Ceeb" lub taub hau!...Huab Tais zoo siab, tiam sis Phaj Hub yog ib tug dev, tis pom qab yuav muab tus ntxhais rau. Tsi pom qab ua li cas. Tus ntxhais hnov li ntawd, nws paub tias Huab Tais tsis tej lus uas hais dua tsis muaj leej twg yuav fav tau. Ces nws cia li thov yuav dev. Huab Tais tsis pom qab ua li cas, ces cia li muab tus ntxhais pub rau Phaj Hub yuav.

Dev Phaj Hub tau Huab TAis tus ntxhais ces nws cia li muab thauj mus saum roob ib qhov tsua uas xywb plias, tib neeg tsis muaj peev xwm mus cuag. Li ntawd Huab Tais tus ntxhais cia li hle khaub ncaws liab qab nrog tus dev ua neej. Nws mam xeem hnav dua ib hom khaub ncaws tshiab.

Tau ib ntus, Huab Tais nco nws tus ntxhais, tso neeg mus nrhiav. Thaum mus txog lub roob mas ntuj teb tsaus ntais nag xob nag cua nrov vig boog, tis muaj leej twg mauj peeb xwm nkag mus. Tau 3 xyoos yug tau 12 tug mes nyuam. 6 leej tub, 6 leej ntxhais.

Phaj Hub tuag tas, Huab Tais tus ntxhais noc txo kev uas nrog dev ua neej thiaj lu mus nuab tawv ntoo ntos ua ntaub, muab nroj tsuag ua nkaj zas kom ntaub txaij tsib tsos, txiav xaws ib hom tsho tuaj ko tw coj los hnav li rov los saib niam saib txiv.

Huab Tais li tso neeg mus tso cov me nyuam pem qhov tsua. Mus txog tsuas pom cov me nyuam hnav khaub ncaws txaij nraug pes zees, hais lus mloog tsis tau. Nyiam nyob qhov roob qhov hav, tsis kam nyob nram tiaj. Huab Tais ua raws li lawv nyiam ces tso kev rau lawv mus nyob qhov roob qhov hav.

Tom qab no lawv tej xeeb zeej xeeb ntxwv huaj vam tuaj ces muab hu ua " Mab Yiv". Yog ib haiv neeg ruam qia dub. Lawv tsa tsev nyob suam teb chaws Tshooj Yaj. Lawv Tus yawg koob mas muaj dua koob meej, lawv pog koob ho yog Huab Tais tus ntxhais.

Xav paub ntxiv, hais tuaj, kuv mam li tshaj tuaj ntxiv rau hauv no."

Sorry, the original Chinese text is nearly impossible to come by.

Question for Li Mei: What language are the names "hongvichith", "Bounsouei", "Phounsaueth", "Lithmouthay", "XAYSITHIDETH", "XAYSONGKHAM" from?

Pingpong,

Those are Laotian surnames.

Why does the latinization of them look so different from Thai names? presuming that Thai and Laotien are dialects of the same language.

From my understanding they're two separate languages, however both languages belong to the southwestern branch of the Tai language subgroup of the Tai-Kadai family of languages. The Thai language consists of 4 dialects and the Laotian language has 5 dialects. Within the Southwestern Tai branch there is a great deal of mutual intelligibility, these dialects sharing as much as 70% common lexicon.

[quote=Li Mei,May 26 2005, 11:30 PM]
tongneng,

Hmong and Mien are two different groups of people. The languages of the Miao/Hmong and Mien people belong to the same branch of the Sino-Tibetan family of languages. They have co-existed for many centuries, first in China and then southeast Asia.

It is believed that the Mien people originated somewhere in the mountain regions near the former Tibetan-Chinese border, whereas the Hmong/Miao are said to have originated in Siberia.

Mien


Hmong Tuam Tshoj


On another note, it is said that the Mien people are descended from Phan Hu (a dog) and a princess. It's interesting that Phan Hu also appears in Hmong legends and myths.
---
Thanks. I read it somewhere that She tribe from fujian region also believed that their ancestors were dogs. Therefore they don't eat dogs as many chinese do. Is She tribe and Mien somehow related ?

I don't know much about the She people but from what I've read, there's two theories as to the origin of the She. The first is that they share a common ancestor with the Mien people and the second is that they are descendents of the people of the Yue Kingdom.

[Can anyone help me in my search -- as to why the "name" Miao offensive to the many Miao and Hmongs, since Miao in what I have read in Chinese , meant basically "young sprout" -- I know the Chinese in years past had called many of the Southern tribes -- Nan Man-- Or Southern Barbarians.

I am for the many Hmongs in the US to find roots --- their bitter war in their aid to the US had made them Persona Non Grata, meaning , they can not go back to Lao, also on account of their political stance created by their leader Vang Pao --- the same or similar fate of the Chinese 's civial war.

I wish there are more Hmongs in here...

Koj puas yog Hmoob thiaj os tus phoojywg?

Can you please translate that into english?

Um, let me give it a shot: "Are you even/also a Hmong, my friend?"

phoojywg = 朋友
yog = 是
koj = 你
puas = 吗
Hmoob = 苗

last letter in a syllable is a dummy letter used to mark the tone.
double vowel means it is a velar nasal /ng/, so Hmoo --> Hmong.

Something interesting I came across.

I had a Psychology lecturer who is also a director of a youth organisation as well as half-way homes in Singapore. He did some missionary work in the past and did a research on one of the tribal Miaos. This lecturer is an Indian by the way.

In the course of his research, he found out that the Miao could trace their history back to the Tower of Babel. I'm not sure if this sounds far fetch to any of you guys but given his discipline and academic background (he did his Psychology in the US), I'm sure it is not a religious propaganda on his part, although it completely slipped off my mind to ask about his sources.

According to his studies, the Miaos' ancestors left the Tower of Babel (the Tower of Babel is located in the middle east) and headed to the east and was living in parts of China before the ethnic Hans.

The Miaos were generally tribal people while the Hans are warrior-like (not to imply war craving and destructive loving). When the Hans arrive into China, there were conflicts and being less advanced, the Mongs were at a disadvantage, subsequently a number of them retreated to mountainous terrain or to other parts of China like the south.

Personally, I find this concept do explain certain things such as the hostility between them and the Han, why they are not residing in the central plains etc. Perhaps they were "highlanders" partly because they live around the mountainous region.

Not too sure about the Miao, but the Wu, Yue, Chu and many other southern kingdoms weren't exactly peace loving peoples either. And don't the Miaos today claim ties with Chu?

The period I referred to was way past the time frame of Wu, Yue and Chu kingdom, pre-dating the Xia dynasty.

As for their relations with Chu, I have no idea.

Koj paub nyeem ntawv Hmoob los? Los yog koj siv phau ntawv qhia ntsiab lus Hmoob online xwb?

Nishishei you are a GENIUS.

I agree. Are you a professor linguistician nishishei? I don't even have a clue about what you wrote on Japanese, Shanghainese, and now Hmong.

I'm impressed.

Chu was a Huaxia kingdom. The subject people they ruled over may have included proto-Miaos. But, the royal family of the Chu explicitly claims Huangdi as an ancestor.

"Here is a little history of who the Hmongs are. Archeological and anthropological evidences, oral traditions, Chinese imperial records, and scholars have traced the Hmong back to central Asia, possibly as early as 5000 B.C. It's believe the Hmong lived in China before the Chinese. At the time, it was not called China, but was called after the Hmong emperor's name. Then one day, the Chinese started to appear. They traveled to the Hmong kingdom from the direction of the Pacific Ocean. The Chinese migrated in, and started to work in the fields, and intermarried with the Hmongs. When the population of the Chinese surpassed the Hmong, the Chinese began to take over. Centuries of wars between the Hmong and Chinese broke out. With no fortune, a Hmong man was bribed to killed the Hmong Emperor, and was successful at doing so too. Since then, the Hmongs were persecuted, and forced out by the new emperor, a Chinese emperor. Today, the Hmongs are scatter all over the world."

Hahaha, Hmong nationalist propaganda I'd say. Similar to some Hmongs claiming they had blonde hair, blue-eyes and were superior to Chinese long time ago..

Way back in China many tens of thousands of years ago (before the Xia Dynasty) lived many competing tribes speaking the similar Sino-Tibetan languages. Over time, one group, the ethnic Han drove the others in scattering directions. The proto-Tibetans moved west, and the Hmong-Miao, Tai and Yue people moved south. But, they still derived from the same source.

Then how did the Tai and the Hmong-Miao develop totally different languages from Sino-Tibetan?

A Wu dialect in Shanghai's immediate suburbs, Maqiaohua, has 100 cognates with Tai-Kadai languages out of 1000 daily common words studied.

Li, Hui 2001. Shanghai Maqiaohua de Taiyu dichen cihui. [Shanghai Maqiao dialect's Tai substratum vocabulary.] Qiongtai Shaoshu Minzu Xueshu Wenhua Jiaoliu Yanjiu Taohui Lunwenjie, Haikou [Theses of the Qiongtai minority academic exchange research conference in Haikou], 15-26.

actually some Shanghainese speak Shanghainese that sounds like Korean to my ears.

Dusto and everyone on this thread... very interesting reading.

Crazy question from left field... Did the Hmong people have a specific hat style?

Was it the flat rimmed hat, with a round-box top? Sort of a cylinder sitting on a flat brim?

When I was in South East Asia, many years ago (Thailand-Philipines), I noticed a vast array of native dress.

And what was significant to me was the distinctly varied types of hats. Some were conical hats (VietNam). Some were turban-style hats (Cambodian in some instances)

The second think I have noticed was the burial style of the Laotians (possibly Hmong), were the bodies were buried in a vertical, fetal posture, inside jars... i.e., Plain des Jarres, Laos.

And the third is the naming convention which carries similar names across many cultures... Jomon, Hmong, Ja-min, Mang-yen... maybe no connection whatsoever, maybe some connections... who knows.

I am asking this for a reason, but let me hold off for your answers, if you have any.

And thank you for a great thread...

Li Hui actually is a member of my forum. The member Kandie/庞贯哲 who was banned from here (Penkyamp on Quetzalcoatl) introduced him to Quetzalcoatl. He is currently on research in Laos. He made two topics at Quetzalcoatl:
http://journeyofman.info/index.php?showtopic=408
http://journeyofman.info/index.php?showtopic=409

I was kind of confused because he said his language was a Tai language but now it seems that it is a Wu dialect with some Tai-Kadai words.

There is a good article about Hmong history in China

http://www.hmongnet.org/hmong-au/chmong.htm

Well, if this is a fact, then the earlier definition of the branches of sino-tibetan are in fact more accurate.

http://www.krysstal.com/langfams_sinotibe.html

1. Sino branch
cantonese, mandarin, min, hakka, wu

2. Tibetan
Tibetan, burmese

3. Tai
Thai, laos, zhuang

4. Southern branch
miao, yao


I think some linguists who broke the tai branch into a separate language family doesn't know this fact that you just said . This would explain why the thai language numerals 1-10 sound so similar to sino-tibetan languages.

One question, are you also implying that the thai, miao etc came from the huang he river too ? I know that the thai people were already in yunnan during the mongol invasion.

Miao-Yao languages are now usually separated from Sino-Tibetan.

Now, even there is a strange classification, 'Miao-Austroasiatic', also sometimes 'Austric' includes Miao-Yao. The numbers of Miao-Yao is quite different from Sino-Tibetan. http://www.zompist.com/asia.htm http://www.zompist.com/sino.htm

Personally I don't see the difference between Hmong and South Chinese.

________________________________________________________________________________________
I have a bunch of Miao (Hmong) friends that I go hunting and fishing with. They are a very unique and interesting people.
The Hmong in America are from Laos. During the Vietnam war the CIA recruited them to disrupt the Ho Chi Minh trail through which the N. Vietnamese were sending massive amounts of war materiel down to the south. Because of intense American aerial bombing, the N. Vietnamese detoured the Trail through Laos, which was supposedly a "neutral" country. The Americans couldn't take any military action in Laotian territory in fear of international and U.N. censure, so they secretly recruited the Hmong to fight a rear guard war against the N. Vietnamese. In fact, there is a book titled "The Secret War" written by a female American journalist from the Vietnam war days. This book is a must read to understand the role of the Hmong in the Vietnam war, and how these people subsequently came to migrate to America.
I joke with my Hmong friends that they are not actually a "minority" that are few in number because there are 6 million Hmong (Miao) in China, primarily in the Southwest provinces like Guangxi, Guizou, Yunnan, and the western part of Hunan province. In fact I've heard of quite a few prosperous American Hmong men who have gone to China to marry Miao girls.
My Hmong friends say that they migrated into Laos from southern China about 150 years ago, or accordidng to them, during the time of their great-great grandparents. That would put the Hmong migration into Laos right about the time of the Taiping rebellion during the Qing dynasty.
There is no one good source to document this claim, that the main Hmong migration into Laos was after the Taiping rebellion, but various sources mention this in passing, including the Encyclopedia Britannica.
Because the Hmong use an oral tradition (they did not have their own writing system), much of their history is not very accurate. Many rivers and mountains in China where they used to live they don't have names for, just descriptions. But Hong Shiu Quan very likely recruited a lot of Chinese minorities to fight his wars against the Qing, so it is highly probable that after his rebellion collapsed many of the minorities fled into Laos to escape retribution, including the Mien people, who also fought alongside the Hmong in Laos's secret war.
When I listen to the Hmong talk I make out many Chinese words. "Hat" or "Cap" is "mao", knives are called "Dsan", buckets are called "tong", to tie up something with rope in Chinese is "Bang", the same in Hmong; the phrase for "it's the same" or "Yi Yang" is the same in Hmong. Many Hmong in America don't realize it, but their cultural and genetic affinity to Chinese is very close.
They are a highly intelligent people and highly adaptable. Unlike the Chinese who like to stay at home and play Mah-jong, the Hmong are a very outdoor people. Go to the mountains and lakes and they are full of Hmong people hunting and fishing, including some very old women. My wife wouldn't be caught dead a hundred feet of a mosquito, but the Hmong women sure don't mind being outdoors !

Boarhuntr

What 'dsan' is 'knives' in Chinese? Many words may be loaned.. if I'm not wrong it seems that it's new Chinese (i.e. Mandarin) vocabulary that exist in their language. I can't be really sure about cultural and genetic affinity with Chinese.. I have a Hmong friend who was once misassumed to be 'Chinese/Japanese', and his surname is seemingly Chinese, but he said he is not a Chinese. If I recall correctly, some time after that he said "May be I'm sort of, but I can't speak any word".
By the way isn't it only Cantonese people that usually play Mahjong?

Many American Hmong are rather clueless as to their Chinese origins. In fact, on many Hmong boards they are continually asking where they're from. Some day from the Yellow River area; some actually say they're Mongolian in origin. I used to question their claims about Mongolian roots, but after reading Ming dynasty history I found out it's very plausible that many of the Hmong have Mongolian blood. When Zhu Yuan Zhang overthrew the Mongol dynasty a remanant of Mongolian forces holed up in the mountains of Yunnan. ZYZ son Zhu Dhi, (the future Yongle Emperor) was given the task of fighting the Mongols and ridding China of their remnants. Zhu Dhi and his generals massacred a lot of Mongols, along with many mountain tribes, including the Miao. Assuming this annihilation campagin took several decades, it is logical to deduce that the Mongol soldiers may very well have taken local women as their wives, hence the claim on the part of the Hmong concerning their Mongol roots. In fact, when one sees a lot of Hmong at their New Year's festivals, you will notice that some of their men are big bodied and tall, unlike most of the Hmong who are short and wiry. I'm not talking just about height, but also girth. The big bodied Hmong also have northern Chinese or Mongolian features, long bony faces, single eyelids (mongolian eyefold), and generally have smaller looking eyes than the typical SE Asian.

Boarhuntr




I think all Chinese play Mahjong, not just Cantonese. In Taiwan my aunts and uncles often play MJ, often all night long, and they are Hunanese, not Cantonese.

Boahuntr

The Americans couldn't take any military action in Laotian territory in fear of international and U.N. censure, so they secretly recruited the Hmong to fight a rear guard war against the N. Vietnamese.

Boarhunter... let me add a sad correction to your quotation.

America DID bomb Laos in a secret war, and had military operatives IN Laos, from my unit, in fact.

One of these "listening posts" was on the top of a Mountain called Phu Pha Tai, and was 19 miles out of North VietNam. This radar site and a few others like it, could direct bombing raids inside North Vietnam, and only lasted 90 days till it was overrun in 1968 or so. Lyndon Johnson at the time stated..."We have no US military on the ground in Laos". Please! Some of the Personnel were from my unit (although I was much later, 73-74, Thailand) Maybe they were in civilian clothes, maybe they had no insignias, but... you know the end of that nonsense. Pilots who were captured almost 100% of the time were never repatriated, never heard from again. Possibly some still exist alive, but probably not.

But that is not the end of the story. In a secret bombing campaign, 1963-1968, unknown to Congress, American warplanes bombed for 5 years inside Laos, estimated at a half ton of bombs for every man woman and child. A certain American Air Force Officer complained in a letter to Congress, and opened up that entire classified program.

Horrific. Even worse are the hundreds of thousands of mines which were planted in the three countries of Laos and Cambodia and VietNam, which are still killing and maiming citizens of those countries, estimated at 300 persons per month, every month, for the last 30 years. The good news is that there are American and Western humanitarian teams which have gone into those countryside areas, and attempted to demine the lands, with some success.

PS... the Chinese people I know of don't sit around playing Mahjong! They sit around inventing their new operating systems... or planning the next moon walk. Who needs Bill Gates? Not the Chinese!

Sometimes, I really wonder how these linguists group languages together. They come up with new classification all the time. Or is it because they are trying to split the sino-tibetan group ?

For me, as long as two languages have a lot of things in common, ethnically similar (eg. north mongoloid which come from related group of tribes ages ago), they should be classified in the same language family.

The characteristics of sino-tibetan are:

1. Tonal and monosyllabic
2. Classifier
3. Significant amount of shared vocabulary
4. Similar sounds (chen, chan, tan, tran)
5. Simple grammar (no past/present tense, gender nouns, verb changes like in indo-european languages)
6. Ethnically similar ?

The russian language and english are much more different than the difference between miao and sino languages and yet those two belongs to indo-european.

Never knew that.. But that may be spurious claim just beacuse Hmong and Mongol are similar in sound (and both Asian). Big bodied/tall/fat all are affected by diet. Also what 'Northern Chinese/Mongolian' features are you talking about? Most Mongolians I saw don't look like North Chinese.

I never saw Chinese playing Mahjong in front of me before I came to Hong Kong, so I agree with Ed Ziomek. Non-Europeans can also play poker cards everyday, so it's not strange that non-Cantonese also play it. How about Turkey's Turk, Kazakh and Mongolian? They are in the same Altaic family.
Do you ever know how Miao language is? Many basic words cannot be found in Chinese, just a lot of loanwords. From a few examples it's not enough but you see this is similar: English 'brother' Russian 'брат'('brat') , just because Russian have different script does not mean they are very different. Also, one can say complex grammar, ethnically similar, no classifier, non-tonal and only few words are monosyllabic etc. are the characteristics of both Russian and English.

I agree with your story...the fact is that my sister-n-law is hmong...and she said that her great grand pa claims he's Mogols...
plus my nephew were born with birthmarks...similar to Mogols birthmark...

These are Laotian names. They can also be Thai names because the Laotians and Thais speak a related language.

Boarhuntr

Hm... strange claim. I don't see close relationship between Hmong and Mongolian.

Does birthmark really imply any of the ethnicity?

Those names does not have a sense of Thai name, I don't know why.
But related language may not have shared names... e.g. English vs Dutch.

[quote name='qrasy' date='Nov 6 2005, 03:30 AM' post='4768925']
Hm... strange claim. I don't see close relationship between Hmong and Mongolian.

I used to also doubt the relationship between Hmong and Mongol. After all, the Mongols are from far north, the steppes; the Hmong are from the south, in the mountains.
I think the answer lies in the history of the Yuan dynasty and also the Ming dynasty.
Before Genghis Khan invaded China, he attempted to invade Vietnam through Southwest China. Why he did that I have no idea. This western and southwestern route goes through Sichuan and parts of Yunnan, all mountainous and semi-tropical. A very difficult military maneuver. Conceivably his troops may have mixed with some of the local women, including Hmong/Miao women.
After the Yuan dynasty collapsed, remnants of their armies holed up in the mountains of Yunnan. Zhu Dhi campaigned there, having been given the responsbility by his father Ming Tai Dzhu to route out the remnants of this Mongol army and eradicate them. This campaign took several years, and it was during this time that the eunuch Zheng He was taken captive and castrated. I feel that it was during this period that the Mongols left behind a lot of descendants, from taking the Mountain women as their wives/consorts. This is the strongest link I can come up with concerning the Hmong/Mongol link. There is no other cultural or trade relationship between these groups that is documented or plausible. These two peoples are geographically too far apart for any significant interaction.

Boarhuntr

I've heard that Mongol ethnicity of PRC is also found in Yunnan.
I think Mongol is patrilinear society, so their male descendants should have kept their identity no matter with whom they mix.
Their languages seem so different with Hmong... hard to imagine how Hmong are from Mongol.

After all, each tribe's name could have meaning... "Hmong" means "human" (??), I wonder what "Mongol" means.

Regarding Boarhunter's comments about America's non-involvement in Laos during the 60s....



Today, another ghost of the Laotian/VietNam war, and America's involvement...

From Robert Burns, Associated Press Military Writer... via Yahoo....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051208/ap_on_...tnam_us_remains

In 1966, the U.S. installed a navigation radar atop Phou Pha Thi mountain, above a landing site known as Lima Site 85. In 1967, it was upgraded with a bombing-control radar to direct U.S. bombers to their targets in North Vietnam. The site was guarded by about 1,000 local Hmong troops advised by CIA paramilitary officers.

For your information... "Let the truth be the Light", and pray for Peace, Love, and Understanding....

Ed Z

Just curious, if you see a precious book or flower pot fall from a table, would you one try and catch it, or two let it fall and assess the damage later?

What is China long term strategic vision for the Miao/Hmong in China?

Actually the Hmong Surname "Khang/Khan/Khaab" is argued to be from the Mongols who settled with the Hmong after the fall of the Yuan Dynasty.

Though distant in language and culture, the Hmong and Mongols do share history. In Hmong stories, Mongolia played a pivital role in thier History. I think the RPA for Mongolia is "Muam Nkauj Liag" phonetic? Mua Gao Lia.

Hmong and Mongols as well as other northern people also practiced shamanism. Hmong are classified to be "The most caucasian" asian ethnic group in SouthEast Asia. They sometimes have fair skin and hair as well as hazel or blue eyes. This is thought to be recessive traits from the mixing of Blood in the anceint Hmong homelands to the north.

also, the Hmong have stories of "A land of white sand and six months of dark and six of light" many people would argue the sand is snow and the dark the winter.

just for thought.

Zheng Qin

Some skeletons of ancient Mongolians was found in Vietnam. The time is determined as pre-historic.
I do not pay much attention to the article about the skeletons, but we may keep it somewhere in mind
for later use in research of the Hmong/Miao.

A DNA study founds that there are Mongolian genes in the Vietnamese. I do not appreciate this finding.
Neither am I interested in the Mongolian skeletons in Vietnam. However, I am waiting to see how far
they two can lead me to.

The Hmong live in North Vietnam. Some of them look like other Asians, but some of them look like
Caucasion in both the appearance and the size. My father assumed that their fathers were the French
soldiers in the time of Vietnam-French war during 1949s - 1950s. I listened my father, but now I am
listening to your opinions.

Most of Vietnamese babies have Mongolia-spots. This is a common term rather than a scientific term,
for all my brothers and sisters including me had these spots when we were born. We are Vietnamese.

Most probably. I've never seen a "Caucasoid" Hmong/Miao-zu, also seems that Hmongs in U.S. are regularly mistaken for Chinese.
I can't think of any East Asian or Southeast Asian who have mostly Caucasian-like appearance, then the genes should be foreign.

Really? (I think I also had it.)
OK. I found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_spot
Actually I never realised it (because of the name I thought that was just North Asian descendants)...
Some European communities have 10% Mongolian spot? LOL.

Thank you for the link to wikipedia. I tell you my story about Mongolian spot.

I brought my child to the clinic for periodic check up. My son's doctor is a white American,
and her apprientice is a Chinese who speaks Mandarin. She is surprised to see many
Mongolian spots on my son's back, from shoulder to his butt. Her master told her that
the spots are harmless. It is me who is surprised, for I assume that all babies in the world
have the blue spots, and the Chinese doctor should have known that, and for the first
time I heard the Mongolian part of the word. I thought that may come from Mongolian
horses that have spots on their fur. The Vietnamese have the word for these spots,
and the word has nothing to do with the Mongolians.