I plan on writing a stub about the Chicken-Saber Sickle (鷄刀鐮) and its cousin, the Chicken-Claw Sickle (鷄爪鐮), on wikipedia. Unlike most people who read something in a book, take it as fact, and post it on wikipedia; I try to do as much research on whatever subject before I activate the article.

What little info I have about them is taken from Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming’s book about ancient Chinese weapons. I realize that this book pissed off a lot of people because of its gross inaccuracies and poor illustrations. However, this is the only “English” source that I have been able to find that details these weapons. I therefore turn to you guys in the hope that you can shed some light on this interesting looking weapon.

Here is an exact transcription of what was said about this weapon in Dr. Yang’s book:



All of Dr. Yang's info about these weapons came from the 中國武術大辭典 ("Chinese Wushu Big Dictionary") (1990) ISBN 7-5009-9463-0. 3 -- Does anyone have a copy of this? I would like to know if there is a good photo or drawing of the Chicken-Claw Sickle in there.

Before I go any futher, here are two pictures of the Chicken-Saber Sickle:

1) Xinyi Master Lu Songgao (卢嵩高) playing the sickles -

2) This is a much smaller version of the same weapon -

Unfortunately, I don’t have a picture of the Chicken-Claw Sickle. But I can tell you it looks like a “Hook-Sickle Spear” (鉤鐮槍) with a shortened pole-arm, a longer primary sickle, and an added secondary sickle on the spine.

Does anyone know when the Chicken-Claw sickle came about? Is it an offshoot or the parent of the Chicken-Saber? Chances are, both weapons originated in the Ming Dynasty. But I would like to cover all of the bases before I write the article.

I did come across one website that had a strange looking picture of the Chicken-Saber Sickle. It looked just like a Hook-Sickle spear but had tiny barbs pointing out under the primary sickle. Here is the LINK. Just run your cursor over the second tan box from the bottom on the right to see the picture. This site also mentions that it was used primarily for close-combat. Of course, this fits neatly into the NO **** category!

Here is a crappy computer drawing of the Chicken-Claw Sickle (鷄爪鐮) based off the one in Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's book. Hopefully this might ring some bells:

Interesting...yet another weapon I did not know existed...

Thanks for sharing! Are you a martial arts practitioner, by any chance?

I fancy myself one, but I’m not a master by any means! I tend to focus more on Qinna joint-locking for basic self-defense and not any actual style. I’ve never learned any weapons, but I am good at throwing weapons. It doesn’t matter what it is -- fork, nail, screwdriver, knife, razor blade, etc. – I can throw it. It’s a skill I picked up while serving in the U.S. Army 82nd Airborne Division. I would like to get serious about my training when time permits. I would also like to learn Shuai Jiao throwing and possible aikido, since both of these are great “set ups” or “follow throughs” in line with my current skill of Qinna.

Anyway, I like this weapon because it seems like an adapted form of the “Hook-Sickle” spear. I’m not saying that is what it evolved from, but its similarities are striking. The only difference between the two is a shorter pole-arm and an added second sickle.

q: Did they call you Bullseye?

One of the main reasons I want to find out the true history of the Chicken-Claw Sickle is because I'm writing a book based in the Song Dynasty. The book is centered around an elderly man who once served under General Yue Fei in his youth. He learned to wield the Hook-Sickle spear while he was in the army and eventually adapted it into the Chicken-Claw Sickle. I realize that both weapons were probably created in the Ming Dynasty, but I'm going to be using a little "artistic license".

I found a new picture of the Chicken-Claw Sickle that I'm going to be adding to the page. The sickle the monk is playing seems to have an added "Moon Spade" handguard. Plus, the sickles themselves are shaped differently than the above picture. I received permission to add the picture to my upcoming article from Mr. Gene Ching, associate publisher of Kung Fu Tai Chi Magazine.

I do not know anything about the derivative of the Chicken Hook Sword, though I know a little about the Chicken hook sword used in Xin Yi Liu He Chuan.

The sword is maybe a derivative of Jian as the length is very much the same, it is double edged and has 2 claws on it, one facing down and another on the back of the blade.

They are used as a pair and simultaneously block and attack, it is a very cruel weapon and can be used to cut spears and trap other weapons.

Both of the swords use a lot of figure 8 movements, with hooking and slicing motions.

The form itself is very rare, I know of only 2 people in the world, who know this form, my teacher Yan Zhi Yuan and the master who taught him. There are probably other people who practice a variation of it, though what I have been told it is not the original one.

If you really want the history explained to you, then you should really ask Yan Lao Shi about it. His contact details are at http://www.tai-chi.co.nz/

JB.

Just looks like a variation of the hooked sword, and very much like a standard Western poker. It is important to note that each Chinese style may have different names for the same things, and the English translations may differ from the original Chinese meaning. Add to this the possibility that a weapon was specialized for a particular purpose in a specific era in Chinese history and may not even be extant at this time, and the picture becomes very confusing, not to mention dubious.

Thank you so much for referring me to your master's page. I have hope that he will be able to tell me all I need to know as Lu Songgao (卢嵩高), your master's Xinyi Liu He master, is pictured at the top of this forum's page wielding the Chicken-sabers.

My teacher, Yan Zhi Yuan (Dr Stephen Yan), learnt his Xin Yi Liu He Chuan from several sources. His main teachers are Li Zun Si (Mai Jing Kuei's top student, South Zou Kou XYLH) and Wang Su Wen (2nd term disciple of Lu Song Gao. He is also the current president of the Shanghai Lu Song Gao association).

He as also trained under a lot more teachers, the other teachers equally important are Yan Rong Chang (Dai Xin Yi) and Ma Hong Xian (Luoyang XYLH).

The teacher he learnt this form from, is from what I have been told a bit of a recluse and wants to remain anomonous, so I cannot provide his name, sorry. I will be meeting him in Hernan at the end of the year, with other masters from that area.

JB.

I was asked to reply to this thread by my teacher as he said he is way too busy with everything at the moment. I did however ask him a few specific questions, which I hope you find useful. If there is some time to try and ask some more questions on your behalf, I will try my best as I also benefit from learning new stuff.

Lu Song Gao's masters name was Yuan Feng Yi, Yuan Feng Yi, had 3 very famous students, Lu Song Gao, Shang Xue Li, and Yang Dian Qing.

I heard that Yuan Feng Yi was approached one night by a stranger who had been watching him for a couple of days (my teacher explained to me that this person was of quite a high skill to remain hidden for so long and also used some term, that he was a master of undisclosed skills. Someone who remains out of public eye and keeps to himself).

He approached Yuan Feng Yi and said "Your Kung Fu is of a really high level, I have been watching you for the past couple of days, and one thing I notice is that you don't practice any weapons. It would be my honour to teach you something".

Yuan Feng Yi was quite touched by the strangers comments and watched as he took the Chicken hooks out of his bag.

Now, I asked where did this Chicken hook sword come from, was it originally from Shaolin? or was it from somewhere else? my teacher said he honestly does not know, though he said the original Chicken hook sword movements are not unlike any weapon he has seen or practiced (my teacher knows around 70 plus weapons from many diffent systems, Shaolin, Ermei, etc).

I cannot reveal exactly who taught my teacher (as my teacher promised to him, that he would remain anomonous.), though I heard it is somewhere from Yang Dian Qing's line. Yang Dian Qing's nephew and disciple is Yan Xian Ling, who was only taught the San Ji Guin (3 section staff).

As far as what I was told, Lu Song Gao only taught the "Chicken hook swords" to 1 person, a coach of a local Wu Shu team, who wanted it for performance related purposes. I heard he seldon practiced it and in time forgot it.

There are a few people claiming today to know this form, I heard that they are adopting the Shaolin hook sword movements and trying to incorporate it with the weapon. The two I am told are so far different that they cannot be confused with the same thing.

JB.

"Doc" over at russbo.com was gracious enough to allow me permission to use the following picture:



Its of the Shaolin Monk Shi De Cheng playing a variation of the Chicken-Saber Sickle. It looks like I'm going to have more pictures than I am article! Doc said he didn't know of any english books that show the form or history, but he said he would look for it in Master She De Cheng's 5 volume book on Chinese weapons. That is when he gets back from Thailand. Lucky B******, I wish I could travel the world like him. Ya know what's really scary, he looks the spitting image of my dad; shaved head and everything!

Doc also told me he has plenty more pictures of Master Shi De Cheng playing the sickles in different stances.

Thank you. I appreciate you and your master's imput. However, I won't be able to use any of your info because it is not documented. Wikipedia requires published material of sorts. My ultimate goal is to find a similar picture of Master Lu playing the sickles. The website where I originally found it is probably never going to write me back. All the other pictures I have of the Chicken-Saber is of the smaller version. I can't find a good picture of the real, full-size Chicken-saber anywhere!

I will, however, mention in the article that Master Lu was a famous player of the sickles.

Hey, I just put the article together really quick. Here is the url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_Sickles

It's small, but I'll add to it as new material comes available.

Also, can someone translate the following for me?

鸡刀镰 - 属奇门兵械。俗称"梱花腰子"。为心意拳门器械之一。相传为形意拳创始人姬隆豐所创，长二尺六寸余，金属制成，由镰身和镰柄组成，镰身包括鸡嘴、鸡冠、镰刃、镰脊；镰柄有镰格、镰首。技法有钩、拉、帶、挎、掛、啄、纏等，以近战为主。套路有单练和对练。

It's about the Chicken-Saber Sickle. I know it talks about the different parts of it and its techniques. But I need someone to translate it into a smooth English equivalent. Thanks in advance to whoever does it!

I will show the article to my teacher, when he has time to come around and see me at home. So he can tell me what he thinks you have written so far.

Both the pictures you shown are not the weapon used in Xin Yi Liu He Chuan, they are some type of derivative.

The chicken hook sword is double edged like a Jian, with 2 hooks, one on the front and one on the back of the blade.

I saw the links to the pictures of Lu Song Gao, which I have also, though are not the best quality. The ones I have in my collection were given to me by my teacher and are much clearer. Though I can say right now, there is no way he will let me put them up.

I will ask my teacher if I can take either a picture of him in a posture with the swords or at the very least a clear picture of the swords by themselves.

As for Ji Long feng creating the chicken hook sword, that is merely another legend. The story I told you was told to my teacher by one of Yan Xianling's students, so I believe it has more truth to it.

JB.

]Thank you. I appreciate your help. I know the weapon's history is probably a myth, but I can only use published material, not oral histories. As I stated above, the info comes from Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's book on Ancient Chinese weapons and he got his info from the "Big Dictionary of Wushu". I've contacted "Doc" at russbo.com and he told me he would look for info about the sickles in his 5 volume book of Shaolin weaponry when he gets back from Thailand. Hopefully, it is in there. Once I get more material, I plan on separating the pictures and placing them under each weapon's info. This way, people will be able to read about each variation and then see pictures of them. This will be less confusing then bunching all of the pictures together in just one section.

I'm glad to see that you and your teacher have such a close relationship. I appreciate your candor in regards to the pictures of Master Lu playing the sickles.

I have asked my teacher if he would contribute some pictures and he said he would as long as you leave a link to his web site (which I think is fair enough).

I will take a few pictures of the main postures and see if his wife can photograph us together, showing a basic application or so.

JB.

THANK YOU!!! I have no problem with putting a link on the photos. I had to post a link and a copyright on the other photos that are currently in the article (except for the one I drew). I can even put a copyright on his photos if he would like that.

I just uploaded the photos to the article. I ended up with so many that I had to make a gallery of them. Just click on the photos to make them bigger. Thanks a bunch to Dr. Stephen Yan and Mr. Dyer for supplying me with these!!! I have added a copyright and a link to Dr. Yan's website on the photos.

I am still not done with the article. I plan on adding some more info to the page (lineage, stance names, etc.). Tell me what you guys think. Here is the url again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_Sickles

I went to Wikipedia again and could not find the updated photo's, am I looking in the right place?

JB.

I saw today that the pictures were added, thank you very much for that. There is a couple of mistakes, which I would like you to correct.

My teacher did not learn fom Lu Song Gao, he learnt the bulk of his Xin Yi Liu He Chuan from Li Zun Si (Mai Jing Kuei's top student. Mai Jung Kuei's XYLH, is from South Zou Kou, Hernan), another equally important teacher is Wang Shuwen, who is a 2nd term disciple of Lu Song Gao and is currently the president of the Shanghai, Lu Song Gao XYLH association).

I gave you the other linege regarding the chicken hooks, when I have the Chinese characters for the names and the movements, then you can put them up.

P.S, you spelled my teachers name incorrectly, it is spelt Stephen Yan (Yan Zhi Yuan).

Apart from that, the article is starting to look nice.

JB.

The only reason I put Dr. Yan as Lu Songgao's student is because he had a picture of Master Lu in his masters section. Could you please give me the lineage info again. What you gave me was kind of confusing. Instead of having the names separated by (-), can you just put the names in a column, starting with the original master, and have each student listed in descending order? What part of Dr. Yan's name did I spell wrong? Was it his given american name? Because I saw the typo and fixed it. I'm sorry for doing that. I realize that it is very important that I spell his name correctly.

I have to work tonight, so I will make the bulk of the changes in the morning. I will, however, change the sentence that says Dr. Yan was Lu Song Gao's student.

I don't think I've mentioned it yet, But on russbo.com, "Doc" has more photos of Shaolin monk Shi De Cheng wielding the variation of the Chicken-Saber. In total, I think there is at least 15. They range from him doing forms to actual applications like guarding from a staff and attacks to the throat, ribs, tops of the legs, and back of the knees! It's pretty neat stuff. I've written Doc to see if I can use the rest of them. I don't think he would've minded me using the other ones, as he mentioned them in the letter giving me permission to use the first one. But I don't want to get overzealous and use them when I shouldn't.

Whether it is true or not, I have heard of this skill before during my studies of Indian and Tibetan mystics. Do you think you could find out the exact term for this skill?

Yeh bro, I will try my best.

JB.

JB,

Remember how I told you administrators like to "dig" when citations are listed and that I might have to take your master's lineage off the page? Well that day has come. I have been told by an administrator to take Dr. Yan's lineage off the page since it has nothing to do with the actual information of the page; as far as creation, proportions and technique. I don't doubt that your master is a lineage holder of the Chicken-Saber form; however, there is no evidence to support this on his page, which the administrator requires.

The administrator told me to possible put the lineage on the linked photos so everyone who clicks on them can see it. But this might come up against some resistance from other administrators. I will put the lineage on the fifth photo (the first full-body shot of Dr. Yan holding the Chicken-Sabers).

Again, I am sorry that this happened, but I figured it would happen eventually like I explained.