Full Version: Region-specific sword types?
I'm looking for information on region-specific sword types, i.e weapons which were used only in certain areas of China by peasants and militia. Were their any designs used only in the south, for example. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I have been gathering info on this topic for quite some time (make that over a decade) and is in the process of writing a 2d geo-timeline on the martial-military development of China since the Ming dynasty. Unfortunately, there are just too little data that availiable and alot of gaps as well as having too many of those might-be-connected relationships that just can't be proven.
I remember Kenneth posting some bronze sword hilts from pre-Qin, said they were specific to southern regions.
They had the appearance of spikes on the sides
They had the appearance of spikes on the sides
Since the thread is not specific I didnt respond assuming it meant 'Ming/late dynasties', but there is a huge variety of variation in weapons according to region in the times before Qin unification and even up untill the mid-West Han some persist.
Items can be seen as belonging to certain regions by their form although in the south some archaic styles (even Shang forms) persisted after they had been replaced in the central plains area so some items I would at appearance call 'West Zhou/Shang' could in fact be East Zhou and from the South (see excavations of bronze weapon on Hong Kong island etc. or J. Rawsons 'Art & Archaeology in Ancient China).
I was discussing the sword hilts of the Dian culture as I posted on CHF with a collector who had lent me the more recent 'blue' one for study and he made the point, after I said no two were alike, that the central plains swords have a very uniform and simpler appearance because these were mass-produced from centralised armouries for equiping formations.
The swords of the Dian still have great skill in casting but seem more personal and varied for the warriors. The Dain culture is only one of the mysterious Nan-Yue tribal group who were quite distinct in many many ways from the 'ancient Chinese'. There were other types of swords I did not cover in my post, a typical Vietnam/Yunnan sword might be more like a broad isoceles triangle blade and quite unlike 'waisted' East Zhou swords/jian. The trident gaurd/'cord' grip swords of east Sichuan and Yunnan with preceded the Dian hilts I showed are also a regional form and not found elsewhere.
Other regional forms are the use of sockets for dagger axes in ancient northern China as influenced by the steppes, certain types of axes and a very unusual type of sword associated with Liaoning province as per Yang Hong (one of these I got to examine a couple of years ago when I didnt know what it was).
In East Zhou there are weapons identified as 'Chu' spear or ge, suggesting some distinction there was made by a collectors research, as per Richard Nable. Different crossbow mechanisms for states were mentioned by S. Selby, the Qin being a simpler caseless example. That Sima Qian remarks on different states for certain weapons shows the variations were noted even at a strategic level.
As the Chinese Empire was created and uniformity imposed on an Imperial army, and as the Han later expanded into other cultural areas the weapons that may have varied accross Warring States states (and then later in minority cultures were replaced by identifiable 'Han' style weapons (as Yang Hong notes of Dian swords fading out of use). Before this there was a connection between swords in Ancient Vietnam and Yunnan/Sichuan rather than the central plains but as Chinese influence expanded the influence of central armouries spread as well as their weapons forms.
Yun posted a link to an article on Dian weapons, noting that their warriors would have served as elements of Chinese armies and bought back weapons this way, and most interestingly to me was a Han dao in the rock art of a Shaman lording over the others in the artwork. It suggests that these forms influenced non-Chinese and even could symbolise power.
I would expect minor variations would exist in forces of later dynasties if they were locally raised and equiped by local foundries or armouries but of the great variety that existed in ancient times there is no such mention once Yang Hong moves past the ancient China period. My impression is that by Song times most of the weapons that were used by the later dynasties had come into existence so the variaties that could be defined on differences between swords may then come down to the sometimes confusing discusions over which type of name a certain 'dao' should go by which is often by smaller details.
Items can be seen as belonging to certain regions by their form although in the south some archaic styles (even Shang forms) persisted after they had been replaced in the central plains area so some items I would at appearance call 'West Zhou/Shang' could in fact be East Zhou and from the South (see excavations of bronze weapon on Hong Kong island etc. or J. Rawsons 'Art & Archaeology in Ancient China).
I was discussing the sword hilts of the Dian culture as I posted on CHF with a collector who had lent me the more recent 'blue' one for study and he made the point, after I said no two were alike, that the central plains swords have a very uniform and simpler appearance because these were mass-produced from centralised armouries for equiping formations.
The swords of the Dian still have great skill in casting but seem more personal and varied for the warriors. The Dain culture is only one of the mysterious Nan-Yue tribal group who were quite distinct in many many ways from the 'ancient Chinese'. There were other types of swords I did not cover in my post, a typical Vietnam/Yunnan sword might be more like a broad isoceles triangle blade and quite unlike 'waisted' East Zhou swords/jian. The trident gaurd/'cord' grip swords of east Sichuan and Yunnan with preceded the Dian hilts I showed are also a regional form and not found elsewhere.
Other regional forms are the use of sockets for dagger axes in ancient northern China as influenced by the steppes, certain types of axes and a very unusual type of sword associated with Liaoning province as per Yang Hong (one of these I got to examine a couple of years ago when I didnt know what it was).
In East Zhou there are weapons identified as 'Chu' spear or ge, suggesting some distinction there was made by a collectors research, as per Richard Nable. Different crossbow mechanisms for states were mentioned by S. Selby, the Qin being a simpler caseless example. That Sima Qian remarks on different states for certain weapons shows the variations were noted even at a strategic level.
As the Chinese Empire was created and uniformity imposed on an Imperial army, and as the Han later expanded into other cultural areas the weapons that may have varied accross Warring States states (and then later in minority cultures were replaced by identifiable 'Han' style weapons (as Yang Hong notes of Dian swords fading out of use). Before this there was a connection between swords in Ancient Vietnam and Yunnan/Sichuan rather than the central plains but as Chinese influence expanded the influence of central armouries spread as well as their weapons forms.
Yun posted a link to an article on Dian weapons, noting that their warriors would have served as elements of Chinese armies and bought back weapons this way, and most interestingly to me was a Han dao in the rock art of a Shaman lording over the others in the artwork. It suggests that these forms influenced non-Chinese and even could symbolise power.
I would expect minor variations would exist in forces of later dynasties if they were locally raised and equiped by local foundries or armouries but of the great variety that existed in ancient times there is no such mention once Yang Hong moves past the ancient China period. My impression is that by Song times most of the weapons that were used by the later dynasties had come into existence so the variaties that could be defined on differences between swords may then come down to the sometimes confusing discusions over which type of name a certain 'dao' should go by which is often by smaller details.
Hmm, Kenneth.
Would you happen to have any surviving examples of these different minority swords?
Or that Liaoning Sword?
And what exactly do you mean by "Waisted"?
Would you happen to have any surviving examples of these different minority swords?
Or that Liaoning Sword?
And what exactly do you mean by "Waisted"?
A
I have the 4 hilts from the Dian culture that I posted, one I am going to return next time I am in Taiwan and another I am pondering selling but I will keep 2 of them at least.
There is an earlier Dian (all-bronze) trident gaurd sword for sale at present I am half of a mind to get. If I get it I will post it on CHF, but it depends on another possiblity I am lining up with luck.
Tony Allen had quite a number of these trident gaurd swords in the past but I never got any. I posted pics of these on the swordforum. They would have been all found at one site no doubt.
Here is one from a few years ago. About half have a cord design spiralling around the grip;
It is the classic 'trident gaurd' sword. These are often only about 30cm in length and quite early swords. There is a connection to the sword hilts in element of the handles of some.
There are various 'non-Chinese' swords around at present on Richard Nables shop 'pricelesspast.com' but looking at pictures will have to suffice for a while for me. There is a gallery on the site.
In the Young Museum website there are also items of Richards own impressive personal collection http://www.youngmuseum.com/the_richard_nable_collection.htm
There is a ge said to be of Chu (based on the script), a couple of weapons of the Ba culture, a Dong Son knife (a culture that existed in parts of many modern SEA countries) even an axe from the Ordos region (showing the steppes style socket) and a Dian sword of the broad 'triangular type' These weapons can actually be triangles in shape and occur in Vietnam too apparently bt this one is a different shape.
It shows a different form of weapon evolution to the central plains styles.
[
The 'Liaoning' sword I saw just briefly in a bulk lot that was not for sale since it had just arrived. There were some odd weapons like a Han ji and tsah spear mixed in and there was a blade seemingly broken from a heavy and odd hilt.
This was in 2004 and I remember the odd blade which was wavy in a way like a 'snake spear' for making wounds. It was very much like the swords in 'Weapons in Ancient China' page 142, most like figure 206 but I didnt get the book untill much later. The figure 8 style pommel was the same. The blade may have had more 'waves' than the book version but then again it was before I really began to learn about what the items were so may be my memory playing tricks.
I dont think the sword would have been in my price range I expect, I was just handed it for a look. Probably wont seem anything like it again! The blade and hilt look like they are cast seperately since a book example is shown as at least 2 pieces so the sword may have not been broken to be found like this.
This picture only shows a blade and not the odd style of hilt unfortunately.
In trying to find images it seems a Liaoning style dagger, called violin or mandolin shaped by some, I found it is used as an important cultural marker and is also used by a different nationalist argument to diassociate ancient Koreans bronze culture from Chinese influence (a rather incomplete way of viewing intergroup influences). There is some more rational link to later Korean culture suggested in this article. (below) Interestingly Yang Hong specfically states in his text that dagger-axes unearthed with these swords in the East Zhou are just the same as Chinese forms and show strong links, an influence perhaps leading to the slender blades. This would seem then that an argument of disassociation for cultures would already be disproven, and in turn the Chinese were influenced by neighbours cultures.
http://www.blinkbits.com/en_wikifeeds/Liao..._dagger_culture
C
The waisted blade means a narrowing towards the thrusting point which is around the last 1/3 of an East Zhou style swords blade.
I have attached a small picture of an early WS period sword where the scabbard is formed in the shape of the 'waisted' blade. It is a term I got from Tony Allens book I think, but I may have seen it elsewhere.
I describes a common feature and it can be seen on the two ordinary types of WS period swords that I posted an examination of on CHF earlier.
I have the 4 hilts from the Dian culture that I posted, one I am going to return next time I am in Taiwan and another I am pondering selling but I will keep 2 of them at least.
There is an earlier Dian (all-bronze) trident gaurd sword for sale at present I am half of a mind to get. If I get it I will post it on CHF, but it depends on another possiblity I am lining up with luck.
Tony Allen had quite a number of these trident gaurd swords in the past but I never got any. I posted pics of these on the swordforum. They would have been all found at one site no doubt.
Here is one from a few years ago. About half have a cord design spiralling around the grip;
It is the classic 'trident gaurd' sword. These are often only about 30cm in length and quite early swords. There is a connection to the sword hilts in element of the handles of some.
There are various 'non-Chinese' swords around at present on Richard Nables shop 'pricelesspast.com' but looking at pictures will have to suffice for a while for me. There is a gallery on the site.
In the Young Museum website there are also items of Richards own impressive personal collection http://www.youngmuseum.com/the_richard_nable_collection.htm
There is a ge said to be of Chu (based on the script), a couple of weapons of the Ba culture, a Dong Son knife (a culture that existed in parts of many modern SEA countries) even an axe from the Ordos region (showing the steppes style socket) and a Dian sword of the broad 'triangular type' These weapons can actually be triangles in shape and occur in Vietnam too apparently bt this one is a different shape.
It shows a different form of weapon evolution to the central plains styles.
[
QUOTE
A bronze dagger or short sword from the Dian culture. The weapon is generally referred to as a jian, or two edged sword. This particular piece has a short, heavy, triangular blade which makes for a very robust weapon. As far as I can tell, the piece should date anywhere from the Spring and Autumn Period (770-476 BC) to the Warring States Period (475-221BC). It measures just under 26 cm in length and is nearly 7.5 cm wide at the widest point.
BThe 'Liaoning' sword I saw just briefly in a bulk lot that was not for sale since it had just arrived. There were some odd weapons like a Han ji and tsah spear mixed in and there was a blade seemingly broken from a heavy and odd hilt.
This was in 2004 and I remember the odd blade which was wavy in a way like a 'snake spear' for making wounds. It was very much like the swords in 'Weapons in Ancient China' page 142, most like figure 206 but I didnt get the book untill much later. The figure 8 style pommel was the same. The blade may have had more 'waves' than the book version but then again it was before I really began to learn about what the items were so may be my memory playing tricks.
I dont think the sword would have been in my price range I expect, I was just handed it for a look. Probably wont seem anything like it again! The blade and hilt look like they are cast seperately since a book example is shown as at least 2 pieces so the sword may have not been broken to be found like this.
This picture only shows a blade and not the odd style of hilt unfortunately.
In trying to find images it seems a Liaoning style dagger, called violin or mandolin shaped by some, I found it is used as an important cultural marker and is also used by a different nationalist argument to diassociate ancient Koreans bronze culture from Chinese influence (a rather incomplete way of viewing intergroup influences). There is some more rational link to later Korean culture suggested in this article. (below) Interestingly Yang Hong specfically states in his text that dagger-axes unearthed with these swords in the East Zhou are just the same as Chinese forms and show strong links, an influence perhaps leading to the slender blades. This would seem then that an argument of disassociation for cultures would already be disproven, and in turn the Chinese were influenced by neighbours cultures.
http://www.blinkbits.com/en_wikifeeds/Liao..._dagger_culture
QUOTE
The Liaoning bronze dagger culture is an archeological complex of the late Bronze Age in Northeast Asia. Artifacts from the culture are found primarily in the Liaoning area of Manchuria and in the Korean peninsula. Various other bronze artifacts, including ornaments and weapons, are associated with the culture, but the daggers are viewed as the most characteristic.
Lee (1996) considers that the culture is properly divided into five phases: Phases I and II typified by violin-shaped daggers, Phases IV and V by slender daggers, and Phase III by the transition between the two. Of these, remains from Phases I, II and III can be found in some amounts in both the Korean peninsula and Manchuria, but remains from Phases IV and V are found almost exclusively in Korea.
Violin-shaped daggers
The early phase consists of an early period of bronze manufacture without daggers, followed by a period of producing violin-shaped daggers. The prime period of production of violin-shaped daggers is dated to the 8th and 7th centuries BCE.
The earliest artifacts from this period are found exclusively in Manchuria, and seem only gradually to have spread to the Korean peninsula. By Lee's (1996) Phase II, however, a distinctive notched form of dagger begins to emerge in southern Korea, suggesting that by this time independent bronze production had begun in that region.
Evidence gained from pottery indicates that the bronze dagger "culture" of this time actually included several distinct cultural groups. One distinct pottery tradition is found in Manchuria and northwestern Korea, another in the Taedong River valley, another in the southwest around the Chungcheong provinces including the Geum River, and yet another throughout the rest of the southern Korean peninsula including Jeju island.
Slender daggers
This later part of the Liaoning is often referred to as the "Korean bronze dagger culture," since it was largely restricted to the Korean peninsula. [1] At this point the Liaoning culture artifacts begin to disappear from the Manchurian area. A new form of dagger begins to turn up on the Korean peninsula, straight and slender.
The greatest concentration of bronze daggers is found in the Geum River valley of South Chungcheong province. Away from this area, the daggers become progressively fewer. This appears to indicate that most daggers were produced in the Geum valley, and the other cultures of the peninsula acquired them primarily by trade. Trade also took place by sea, with artifacts from the Later Phase found in Japanese archeological sites as well.
Lee (1996) divides this phase into two distinct sections: one dating to the 3rd century BCE in which the production of slender bronze daggers predominated, and one dating to the 2nd century BCE in which daggers are often accompanied by bronze mirrors with geometric designs and halberds influenced by the Chinese Qin state {note; this seems to rule out the nationalist version I read earlier}. In the first part, a single pottery culture typified by clay-band applique is found throughout the Korean peninsula, but in the second part distinctive pottery types emerge in the northwest and the remainder of the peninsula.
Historical identity
The disappearance of the Liaoning culture from Manchuria appears to coincide with the State of Yan's conquest of that area. Yan brought an Iron Age culture to the region, including its own knife-shaped iron currency, which is also found at scattered locations on the Korean peninsula.
The Korean bronze dagger culture of the Later Phase appears to correspond with the state of Jin, which occasionally enters Chinese annals as a contemporary of Wiman Joseon. Lee (1984, p. 13) views this as the period of emergence of the "walled-town states" in Korean culture, a hierarchical political structure in contrast to the tribal system which had prevailed during the Neolithic period.
Lee (1996) considers that the culture is properly divided into five phases: Phases I and II typified by violin-shaped daggers, Phases IV and V by slender daggers, and Phase III by the transition between the two. Of these, remains from Phases I, II and III can be found in some amounts in both the Korean peninsula and Manchuria, but remains from Phases IV and V are found almost exclusively in Korea.
Violin-shaped daggers
The early phase consists of an early period of bronze manufacture without daggers, followed by a period of producing violin-shaped daggers. The prime period of production of violin-shaped daggers is dated to the 8th and 7th centuries BCE.
The earliest artifacts from this period are found exclusively in Manchuria, and seem only gradually to have spread to the Korean peninsula. By Lee's (1996) Phase II, however, a distinctive notched form of dagger begins to emerge in southern Korea, suggesting that by this time independent bronze production had begun in that region.
Evidence gained from pottery indicates that the bronze dagger "culture" of this time actually included several distinct cultural groups. One distinct pottery tradition is found in Manchuria and northwestern Korea, another in the Taedong River valley, another in the southwest around the Chungcheong provinces including the Geum River, and yet another throughout the rest of the southern Korean peninsula including Jeju island.
Slender daggers
This later part of the Liaoning is often referred to as the "Korean bronze dagger culture," since it was largely restricted to the Korean peninsula. [1] At this point the Liaoning culture artifacts begin to disappear from the Manchurian area. A new form of dagger begins to turn up on the Korean peninsula, straight and slender.
The greatest concentration of bronze daggers is found in the Geum River valley of South Chungcheong province. Away from this area, the daggers become progressively fewer. This appears to indicate that most daggers were produced in the Geum valley, and the other cultures of the peninsula acquired them primarily by trade. Trade also took place by sea, with artifacts from the Later Phase found in Japanese archeological sites as well.
Lee (1996) divides this phase into two distinct sections: one dating to the 3rd century BCE in which the production of slender bronze daggers predominated, and one dating to the 2nd century BCE in which daggers are often accompanied by bronze mirrors with geometric designs and halberds influenced by the Chinese Qin state {note; this seems to rule out the nationalist version I read earlier}. In the first part, a single pottery culture typified by clay-band applique is found throughout the Korean peninsula, but in the second part distinctive pottery types emerge in the northwest and the remainder of the peninsula.
Historical identity
The disappearance of the Liaoning culture from Manchuria appears to coincide with the State of Yan's conquest of that area. Yan brought an Iron Age culture to the region, including its own knife-shaped iron currency, which is also found at scattered locations on the Korean peninsula.
The Korean bronze dagger culture of the Later Phase appears to correspond with the state of Jin, which occasionally enters Chinese annals as a contemporary of Wiman Joseon. Lee (1984, p. 13) views this as the period of emergence of the "walled-town states" in Korean culture, a hierarchical political structure in contrast to the tribal system which had prevailed during the Neolithic period.
C
The waisted blade means a narrowing towards the thrusting point which is around the last 1/3 of an East Zhou style swords blade.
I have attached a small picture of an early WS period sword where the scabbard is formed in the shape of the 'waisted' blade. It is a term I got from Tony Allens book I think, but I may have seen it elsewhere.
I describes a common feature and it can be seen on the two ordinary types of WS period swords that I posted an examination of on CHF earlier.
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