I'm always curious on the ba qi, how do they originally decide who will be in which one?

You just have a group of people, divid them into 8 groups and give them each a banner.

It is essentially a military organization.

The descendants of the people of a group will remain in that group. Then you will have 8 units and they will grow themselves.

Oh, I thought that the people were put under each flag because of the area they're from or something like that... well I guess not, then

Recommend you read this book: "The Manchu Way: The Eight Banners and Ethnic Identity in Late Imperial China", by Mark Elliot (2001). Elliot argues that the Manchu Eight Banners were actually the key strategy in constructing a Manchu ethnic identity out of a disparate grouping of Jurchen tribes. If you were in a Banner, then you were a Manchu - it became that simple.

I want to read it!!! But I can't find it in the city library or the bookshops. Do you know if there is a copy of it on the internet?

thanks

You can order it from Amazon.com

I wonder if my parents will let me buy it? Anyway, thank you.

www.alibris.com also has several second hand copies from under 20 US dollars.

Blood relations are very important when determining the 8 banners. Closest to the top = higher ranking banner, etc.

Zunjing de China History Forum members,

First and foremost, I would like to thank you Yun the Sage-King for recommending a useful book to read regarding the “Manchu Ba Qi.” I will definitely have my parents purchase that for me as a X-mas present. Since it will take me some time to go searching for this book, there are two questions that I would like to ask because I would like to have answers to them as soon as possible.

How do the Grand Khan/Emperor make the decision on which banners get to be the three upper banners, receiving more prestige and power? Also, since the Grand Khan/Emperor would most likely have a lot of relatives, how would who would be in charge of what banners be determined?

I find the Manchu Ba Qi to be one of the most interesting military organizations since it was unique only to Qing Dynasty, so I would really appreciate any additional information about it.

Xie Xie,

btw, because the upper 3 banners are called what it is called, are the upper 3 banners stronger than the other 5? Logically speaking, it would actually make sense that the lower 5 banner is stronger AFTER Huang Taji's reign because the emperor himself doesn't personally train his banners anymore while the lower 5 banners were still continualolesy trained.

any idea whats the name of the 8 Banner? i mean all of them and what they do?

The Manchu 8 Banner during Nurhachi times are

Nurhachi - Plain Yellow and Bordered Yellow ,it only use for Emperor and it sucesssor
Prince Daishan ,Nurhachi 2nd son - Plain Red
Prince Manguitai ,Nurhachi 5th son -Plain Blue
Prince Dorgun Nurhachi 14 son- Plain White
Prince Yoto ,Prince Daishan son -Bordered Red
Prince Amin ,Hurhachi Nephew - Bordered Blue
Prince Dodo,Nurhachi 15 son -Bordered White.

Zunjing de Whsie,

Yep, your deductive reasoning was very accurate since the upper three banners were definitely more powerful and stronger than the lower five banners simply because they were under the direct control of the (future) Grand Khan/Emperor. You have certainly brought up an interesting point since I have never questioned the validity of this statement because I am usually very gullible as I assume everything I read is true. Heheheh! Unlike Nurhachi and Huang Taiji who can be considered as founding Emperors of the Qing Dynasty, Emperor Shun Zhi never really commanded any troops on his own; hence, I highly doubt he would personally train his own troops. This would also give indications that the lower five banners would be stronger than the three upper ones after Huang Taiji’s reign since succeeding Emperors did not personally discipline their three banners anymore since the main focus would now be on administrative affairs. However, would not this be under the assumption that if the Emperors were in charge of training their troops they would be more fierce? I mean not all Emperors were good military trainers. So, I really don’t think it was a big deal for Emperors to not personally discipline their banners since there were others more capable for the job. Of course, this may lead to mistrust between Emperors and their three banners; however, I don’t believe this was ever the case. I suspect the eight banners would be consistently trained regardless of the Emperors’ involvements. Therefore, there would still be not a lot of differences between the functions and capabilities of the three upper banners and the five lower banners.

The most significant change in the banners system occurred in the reign of Yong Zheng. As he had to fight very hard against his brothers for the throne, Emperor Yong Zheng consolidated his authority by placing all eight banners under his direct control. From this point on, the Emperors had absolute power over all eight banners.

Zunjing de Galvatron Xian Sheng,

Thank you so much for providing a list of all the eight banners as well as the “Bei Le” who were in control of them; I greatly appreciate this! I knew I can always count on you to have information on the Qing Dynasty. Hehehe! This is too great of a topic for me to not ask more questions! Hence, I will start firing my inquiries right now.

When Huang Taiji succeeded his father, he would then be in charge of the Plain/Bordered Yellow banners; however, which banner was originally his when he was still the 4th Bei Le?”

It was really obvious that the council of princes (the four Great Bei Le) would each be conferred with one banner; however, why did Prince Yoto, Prince Dai Shan’s son, also made the chieftain of the Bordered Red banner? I don’t recall any other grandsons of Nurhachi receiving this special privilege this early in his reign. I have realized Prince Cuyen was also a commander of one of the banners. So, was Prince Yoto merely filling in Prince Cuyen’s place as the chieftain of the Bordered Red banner since he was an older grandson of Nurhachi? If this was the case, then it would not really make a whole lot of sense since Prince Cuyen also had sons of his own. Should not one of his sons inherit his position? This is only my sort of educated guess; therefore, please don’t hold me accountable for it. Heheheh!

By the way, this was only the eight banners during Nurhachi’s reign. Of course, these princes had to pass away and probably be succeeded by their descendants.

Xie Xie,

the Plain White Banner

Zunjing de Lifezard,

Hmm, are you sure when Huang Taiji was still the 4th Bei Le, he was the chieftain of the Plain White Banner? I remember reading an article online regarding Prince Dorgon being in charge of the Plain White Banner even before the death of Nurhachi. Was the article invalid? If you are correct, then Prince Dorgon did not really take over the Plain White Banner until Huang Taiji ascended to the throne? After declaring himself Prince Regent for Emperor Shun Zhi, Prince Dorgon then switched Prince Jirgalang’s Bordered Blue Banner with his Plain White Banner as one of the three upper Banners. Was this actually what really happened?

Xie Xie,

he was indeed the hosoi beile of the plain white banner at the eight banners inception in 1615, though i m less certain of the period leading up to and after nurhaci s death. dorgon and dodo definitely did led the 2 white banners some time. it s something i would like to find out too

well the bai qi, the white banner, certainly wasn't random. All four colors are spiritually significant in manchu shamanism. The white has a spiritual association with the Moon goddess and therefore the white banner was often assigned to shamans and shamaness.

ok. here's what happened.

before nu'erhachi died, he was in charge of both the yellow banners.

dorgon and his brother duoduo was always his faveourite sons and the sons that he hoped will become emeperors one day. first choice dorgon, seonc choice duoduo. thus he made some preparations for them to "fight" for the khan place after he died.

immediately taking effect after he die, his yellow banner(then had 45 niulu) were to split into three and diveded evenly between ajige, dorgon and duoduo. dorgon would also get the boreded white falg(which had 15 niulu)

however, huangtaiji made a different arrangement after he came to power. he witheld the bordered white banner from dorgon and gave it to his son haoge instead. so now we see, both father and son has both white banner while the 3 brothers now only have the 2 yellow banners.

because yellow is a prestiogious colour to the manchus it would be a laughing stock(and really weird) if the emperor/great khan himself did not lead the yellow banner. so he told dorgon that we change the colours of the flag(the pple remained the smae) from now on, your colour is white. mine is yellow. which is how dorgon came to own the white flag and huangtaiji came to own the yellow flag.

the white flag was originally the 5 lower flags because of the little pple it had whereas the yellow flag had 65(45 from plain yellow. 20 from bordered) niulu. even though they changed colours later on(white become yellow and vice versa) the pple did not change. the white(orginially yellow) flag still had the most people and was militarily the strongest flag. it came to replaced the plain blue as the 3 upper flags. also, it is almost unspoken that the yellow flg will always be among the top flags because it is lead by the emperor and the heir apparent himself whether or not they are militarily strong.

hope this answer your questions.