quoted from suren911


http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...id=4855439&



i find that statement to be disgraceful,specially coming from a chinese person who lived in china for half of her life. its on pair of saying that american is limited to white europeans only,and excluding the blacks,latinos,native americans and asians. what a illogical way of thinking.

I don't see why you have to make a big deal out of this. But if you want, I can tell you something.

I've been a pretty nationalistic person all of my life. I'm just as Chinese as any other, but I've encountered many racist comments from American born Chinese who told me I wasn't good enough to be Chinese or don't have the privilege to know Chinese because I'm not even really Chinese. I visit my grandma and other relatives in Inner Mongolia and pass through Tongliao in the autonomous region of Inner Mongolia. I see **** happening to Mongols all the time. In a supposedly Mongolian restaurant opened by Chinese, a Mongolian man was sitting there with his daughter. He opened his mouth and ordered food in a really thick accent, the waitress's face just dropped. She give him bad attitudes. At the hospitals in Inner Mongolia, Mongols receive the worst treatment. My dad is a doctor and he visited some hospitals there and all the doctors there are Chinese and talk as if the Mongols and Daurs among other minorities in Inner Mongolia are subhuman. It angers him but at the same time he can't really do anything about it. A Mongolian woman was charged too much for a hospital visit and was complaining and the young Chinese woman sitting there at the window yelled at her. These are just a few examples. If you want to tell me that there's absolutely no discrimination of Han Chinese towards minorities then I don't know what else to say to you.

My own dad witnessed something he shouldn't have. There were some government people searching for "terrorists" supposedly. A few days later, a huge wave of Chinese people moved into the town. I've seen Mongols receive bad treatments in Inner Mongolia a lot. I pass by Tongliao (far eastern Inner Mongolia) a lot to see my grandma when I'm in China. I usually have lunch there and everytime a Mongol walk in and orders food with a heavy accent, the look on the waitress's face just fu-king drops, nevermind the fact that it's suppose to be a Mongolian BBQ restaurant opened by Chinese people that's suppose to serve Mongolian food. If you go out to drink, you'll always find some drunken Chinese picking on a Mongol drinking by the side. Hell he'll throw a punch and the guy couldn't do anything about it cause he's the minority there. Stuff like this happens everyday.

Sure, nobody wants to hear the ugly truths. But denying it and sweeping problems under the carpet and shutting down anyone who even dares to bring it up isn't going to solve it. Or maybe it isn't really even a problem. They are just second citizens. Good for nothing bunch of useless drunks who can't even speak Chinese properly, right?

America is dominated by white people. Sure there are minorities. But besides just a few in politics and in entertainment industry, do they really hold any power? Have you been to the streets ot Harlem? Bad parts of DC? Philadelphia? Projects in the south? Sure Americans live there. The people there are just second class American citizens.

You singling me out, as if I was some anti-Chinese troll without hearing my side of the story is just another reason why my own people disappoint me sometimes. Minorities are nothing more than just second class citizens in China. I wish one day that all people of China would come together like those propaganda paintings where all the ethnicies come together and dance happily. But for now, I think China still has a long way to go in bringing people together.

Hi, if I may interject something here.

It has been mentioned several times in CHF that the term Chinese, in the English language, can mean 2 things -
1. a nationality, applied mostly when it comes to citizens of China, who could be any member of the ethnic group, including non-Han, OR

2. an ethnicity, applied mostly when it comes to migrants and their descendants outside China. In this instance, each individual is free to claim whether to be an ethnic Chinese - a classification dominated but NOT exclusive to ethnic Han, OR choose to claim as an ethnic Mongol or Miao or Bai even though they or their predecessors were citizens of PRC or pre-1949 ROC or Qing Dynasty.

However, this distinction is often blurred because of ignorance or prejudice.

Suren911 (heck, what a number, 911), I sympathise for you for any discrimination you and your family members have experienced in the PRC, and I also feel anger towards discrimination as a matter of principle, regardless of the ethnicity of the perpetrator or the victim.

As someone who was never a citizen of PRC nor lived in the PRC, I would not be familiar with the local situation.

My grandfather migrated out of China in the earlier half of the 20th century, and in the country where he chose to settle, the Chinese community experienced numerous discrimination and persecution, even until today in the 21st century.

But the Chinese community survived and not for a moment did it consider losing its cultural identity though they also did their best to fulfill the expectations as citizens of the country, doing no less than the so-called native citizens.

Thus, being counted as a Chinese is not just a precious heritage which we strove to retain, but also a sense of fraternity where we extend welcome and helping hands to fellow members.

Therefore, it saddens me to hear that you experienced discrimination from fellow descendants/migrants from China. I suppose there're always such ignoramus in every society, and I would like to ask you not to let them impose their unworthy standards on your views.

We had in CHF some forummers who claimed overseas Chinese aren't real Chinese either, something which we utterly reject.

It is all right if they say we are not "Zhong Guo Ren", for that implied we aren't citizens of the PRC, which many of us are not.

But we do not allow them to hijack the term Chinese for their own exclusive and narrow definition.

I'thats unheard of. most of the time,its the other way around,that ABCs are considered not chinese enough becourse they were born in another country. and most ABCs don't know much about different ethnicities in china,they just assume everyone from china must be a chinese,so im wondering how could those ABCs being racisit to you when themselves lives in a multi-culture/ethnic society?







racism happens everywhere on earth,it doesnt just happens in china and it certainly doesnt just happens to the mongols,as they are many cases of where poor rural han farmers got discrimnated in hospital,hotel,shopping mall,restraunts, any where you name it,becuz they are poor and uneducated. i see no difference between these two cases. i think you are just simply being too emotional.




sh** happens. and certainly doesnt just happens to the mongols,and i know many cases where the hans were the victerms of crime(in xinjiang happens a lot)




dont blame others,this world isnt perfect.this kind of problem happens anywhere,USA for example.







the jews holds a great power both in politic and entertianment. the blacks also holds a great power or influence in the entertainment area.






i lived in nyc for almost 2 years and never been to harlem b4? want know why? becuz its simply too dangeours to go there,why would i want to risk my own life to go there when i have better places to go?
they made themselves second class people,no body is stopping them from getting out of that ghetto.



rite,they are second class people when they can have more than two childs and get benifits when entering schools and jobs.

Of course. It's always great to see overseas chinese communities prosper. I'm the co-president of the Chinese student organization on my campus and we promote cultural awareness throughout the city. It's a great feeling. Thank you for input.


Wow who knew ignorance be such a bliss!

Honestly,very few Han Chinese living outside PRC aware of conditions for Mongol locals in Inner Mongolia,major Chinese language newspapers rarely report news on Inner Mongolia.Your posts shed some light on the situation,thanks for taking the time in exposing on how Mongolians are discriminated against.It's good some people bring it up,my sympathies to those suffer ethnic discrimination.I am a believer in social activism,have you thought of set up anorganization or network with participation of right-minded Han Chinese willing to ease the problems there through non-political means.

There are some bad a** Han Chinese ( regardless US-born or not ) also reject SE Asian born and bred as " Chinese ",it's NOT just you being Mongol/Manchu heritage.

True,people are not always equal.

To view the majority of Han Chinese as Mongolian-haters due to several personal experiences would only make you yourself just another source of that judgemental attitude. According to the law of captalism, if the majority of Han Chinese discriminate against Mongolians, then the TV series on Genghis Khan would have never been made, nor would there be Mongolian styled dances on TV as a form of entertainment.

DCZ, think about the time racism happened to you or someone you care about.

I think what Suren meant to say is they don't get treated like they're chinese too

racism is not a one way road,it can happens both ways,han againist non-han,and non-han againist hans.
there are many news reports about poor rural han chinese farmers being discriminated.in china,its not about your ethnicity that gets you discriminated,its more about your social status, and the way you present yourself. i doubt a poor lower class han chinese would get treat any better than say a wealth minority.heck,there are many minority celebraties and i dont see any han chinese hating on them simply becuz they are not han.

suren is simply being too emotional about this and have a twsited view about what is a chinese which i found quite disgusting.



very limited by what? every since the beggining of repuplic of china,the mongos,tibetans,manchus,huis plus other minorities were part of chinese,as the national flag of earlier repuplic of china used 5 colors to included the people of china.

Only han-chauvanist would claim chinese only apply to han.

Suren911, I didn't know you're a chinese of mongolian ancestry (a Mongolian chinese)..there are lots of chinese minorities in China.

Yes, I agree. Racism is no just a one-way road. It can happen in places you never think could happen. It is not something we condone, but certainly not in our hands to eradicate, unless there is a plan to remove those people practicing racism from the face of the earth. I doubt this is any one's intention as there might not be anyone alive after that.



It would be understandable why Suren seemed so emotional about the issue... discrimination is not easy to swallow, especially it had hit home so closely. She had experienced the pain and it certainly left the scar. It would certainly make people view thing rather differently.

As for Suren's posts:



Seems to me like it comes from someone with a bitter experience and felt that the Ethnic Minorities are not included as part of being Chinese. It is a excluded feeling. The bad experience were the work of some people and not all people, surely to penalize the whole community because of the action of a few, would be a little too drastic? There are still Han Chinese out there that cares about the Ethnic Minorities.

I have had bad experiences and had to endure ignorant comments from Han Chinese, but not once did I say all Han Chinese are bad. If I felt that way, I wouldn't be here reading up on Chinese history or participating in Chinese events or even celebrate Chinese holidays. But majority of minorities are in fact treated like second class citizens in China, if not worse. My own family is an example. Unless my own eyes lied to me.

DearCoolz's comments reminded me a lot of the **** I went through in the past from those whom I considered friends. "The Mongols are ******* stupid for not learning Chinese" "they're so backward" "they're all dirty and barbaric" etc etc. How is this not different from the way blacks are segregated in the US just a few decades ago? I've been told I was a disgrace because I'm of mixed ancestry. What is this, a 批斗会? This is so funny because my name is Grace.

I could honestly care less what others say. I am as Chinese as any Chinese you find down the street. I've always honored my family and know what my culture and ethnicities mean to me and I am entitled to my opinions. Tons of Chinese would come outright and say disgusting things about China. I don't think I've disgraced the Chinese name in anyway. But if you're going to judge me based on my opinions because I happened to share some personal opinions and be such a cranky old hag about it, picking on every word that I've said, then I leave the stage to you. Enjoy taking things so literally. You must be a really really tired and sad person. *bows and exits stage*

But my dear goodness, ignorance is such a bliss, I thank the forum for such a wonderful feat.

Trust me,there are many overseas born ethnic Han Chinese have endured rude comments and " bad " social interaction experiences plus also felt the wrath of kinship rejection from their own kind so please don't ever think only happened to you or persons of Mongol ancestry.

Again,non-PRC Chinese language newspapers don't report minority issues therefore very few Han Chinese are aware of overt ethnic discrimination against Mongols.I don't think there is any issue with Sinicized Manchu people since great majority of them have already culturally assimilated into Han population.The common consensus is Manchu heritage is now part of Han Chinese identity.

Honestly,average Chinese don't ever discuss Mongols or Hui Hui because we are mainly of Han ethnicity.Were those hurtful remarks made to you and family members while still living in China ?

First of all, have to say I understand what Suren911 has experienced and it must be very unpleasant.

The term Chinese in a narrow sense includes all people from within the Chinese territory and in a board sense it includes all people share the Chinese culture. Nonetheless, it does not mean that discrimination does not happen in China. Even Han Chinese may look down on another Han Chinese. There are stereotypes about different groups of Han Chinese. There was also a historical tradition of Nortern Chinese looking down on the ones in the South. Earlier, people of HK, because of their wealth, look down on the people from Mainland China, and now it seems it's the other way around. Discrimination happens in America too even at this moment we speak. It's always a thing of pride and prejudice.

That said, the monster of discrimination is not only about ethnicity, it's also about social status, values, and culture. Imagine a person as an atheist live among a group of religious people who are not even fundamental, no doubt that person will be a viticm of discrimination. I have seen some people had their jaws dropped when I said I don't believe in anykind of gods. It is prejudice and people are prejudice because they don't understand, and they fear what they don't understand.

With this understanding, we can see that those people who practice discrimination are just weaklings who are scared s----less about something they don't know because of their ignorance. So next time you encounter comments from an American born Chinese who tell you that you aren't good enough to be Chinese, you can pad yourself on the back and tell him that he should and will be going to hell, suggest that he should have fun with himself, and make sure he knows that you are way better educated than he is. You shouldn't be upset and let somebody like that takes away your fun.

Please don't create a problem that doesn't exist(Hans discriminating mongols because they are mongols), there is simply no such thing, if that was true, you would never be able to head a chinese student association.

About those ABC's, I thought most of them would more like to be americans, it suprises me that they say such things.

I've had a friend who has been to inner mongolia. He told me that today, Mongol Chinese commonly speaks chinese (han-language) , besides their own Mongol language.

Not sure if discrimination/racism occurs, but I've once heard a mainland Chinese (from Shanghai) who thinks that chinese minorities such as Uighur/Mongols are not considered 'chinese' (Zhongguo Ren)..I feel like rebuking him...

suren911, you are entitled of your own opinion, but please careful with the languages used here.

When you are talking about china's minorities, please use words like 'han, mongol etc ', and not 'chinese, mongols'. You sound like mongols are not chinese. You see yourself as a chinese(as you said), then you shouldn't talk about mongol minority as if they are not chinese.

So please don't talk like 'in china, chinese this and mongols that', they are han and mongol minorities, and they are all chinese.

What your experienced, just like what the other people said, has nothing to do with racial discrimination. Even among Han Chinese, prejudice happens all the times. It is just one of the ugliest nature in Chinese culture. In Hong Kong, especially back in the 80's and early 90's, mainlander(regardless of ethnicity) received treatement 10 times worse than what you mentioned. In Shanghai , I heard the local people would look down on you if you do not look anything close to local Shanghaiese.
In Taiwan, Mainlander Taiwanese are always the victim of political strife.
During election, names like "中國豬“﹐“支那豬” are being called to Mainlander Taiwanese by some hardcore pro-independent Taiwanese (whom themselves are just descendant of Chinese immigrant few hundred years ago).

Contrary to what you said, PRC has been working hard for ethnic unity at the expense of Han Chinese. One of the accusation CCP made to Kuomintang was its Han nationalism nature when it overthrew the ROC . In China, minority is given the same opportunity as the Han Chinese if not even more. All minority enjoy special privilege which are denied from Han Chinese , for example all minority do not need to abide by the one-child policy, extra points are added to the exam in College enrollement, Han Chinese will likely be arrested and minority will let go if skirmish break out between Han Chinese and minority (as we see in Xinjiang and Henan).
Even when some Han Chinese advocated wearing traditional Han Costume (Hanfu) are labeled by some CCP official as "Han Chauvinism".

I do consider all ethnic groups within China, Chinese...even that 1 percent Korean. Hmmm do they think they are Chinese or Koreans? I have families from Malaysia and families from Taiwan and also friends of both regions. I can tell you there are Taiwanese who think Sino Malaysians are lower than them and Vice Versa. I have been listening to this crap since I was a little girl, sometimes being put in the position of where I need to choose where I stand. There are also Hongkese who think Taiwanese are lower than them or they think Mainlanders are lower than them. Then there are also Singaporeans who think mainlanders, or Malaysians...etc are lower than them and the list goes on.


I don't think it is about Han vs. Mongols, this kind of stuff happens everywhere. Of course this does not mean all people are like that, I hope you don't generalize the entire Han thinking all dislike Mongols.

My dad is a doctor too but since he graduated from Taiwan, he was discriminated by some other doctors who graduated from Western Universities. But he survived and has been able to operate his practice successfully in Kuching, E.Malaysia.

The few minorities you see on TV in China are predominantly entertainers. Only the better off minorities can afford to send their kids to school and get education while the rest are fighting to make ends meet. Do you think they don't exist? They do. But they're invisible from society. They're shunned and looked down upon, like beggars from the streets. Even a Han Chinese beggar who knows how to speak Mandarin will be shunned from society. I'm irritated that some people can just come out and say that there's no discrimination in China. I'll tell you what, I understand people like that too well. Perhaps in your luxurious apartment that comes with electricity and hot water and sitting at a nice cafe waiting for your espresso, you think that your life is so heavenly, but think of it this way, if the cards were shuffled differenty and you were born as a poor person you wouldn't think that China is a discrimination-free country. Even in the US, an educated American will tell you that there is still discrimination in today's American society. It's not a glorious part of the society. It's a problem and denying it won't make it go away. But I like how this problem is laid out in the open to educate people and people with prejudices are criticized. But even with that, discrimination still exists here. Asian Americans, black and Latino Americans still face discrimination everyday. If you still think there's no such thing as discrimination in China then you're out of your mind. Especially with no offence, but freaking idiots who say there's discrimination China.

Of course, things have changed a lot and a lot of improvements have been made for the better. Everyone thinks it's all positive and for the good, but it's not. Sure minority kids get points added (as far as how they came up with the points system, it still smells like racism to me. i.e. Manchus = +10, Mongols = +5, etc). My cousin had points added to his score because he's a minority but it's also insulting to his and others' intelligence. It's not much different from Affirmative Action in the US i.e. Native American and black students are accepted with lower standards. Either way it's good and bad. The so called "improvements" has bad aspects as well. People I know back in my grandma's village now have to pay a certain amount of tax for each animal they own nowadays and must pay the districts to herd their animals. You'll be fined severely if your cow chewed off a chunk or . These people are poor to begin with, let alone pay such fines so that the district so that the top guy gets to sit in a more expensive leather chair. (Oh yeah there's tons of corruption. People's money in one guy's pocket.) A couple of years ago that particular area wasn't governed and was shared by all the herders in the area. A large part of the city was paved and became roads. Sure it's good for transportation, but nature was destroyed and a lot of the herders couldn't herd their animals anymore because it's too expensive. Some sacred sites had to be cleared dug up and moved to Hohhot from their original place to make spaces for the high numbers of Han Chinese moving in and roads. Is it good for the people who've lived there for generations? Of course not. I often hear about new comers constantly trying to change remote areas in Inner Mongolia that was kept the same way for more than a century and complaining about how sandy the place is and how bad it is, yet still live there. Inner Mongolia belonged to the Inner Mongolians, but it's not respected like it should be. Majority of every Autonomous Region in China is made up of Han Chinese. Were they there before? No. They moved in much later, and started to change these peoples' homes without asking for their opinion first. And what's the point of being able to have another kid or two just because you're a minority when your land is taken away and you can't even afford to take care of your family? Tons of pros and cons. Not everybody gets the best outcome.

China has 1.3billion people and minorities are only a small portion of the population. They're under represented. The one child policy is suppose to balance out the population.

As for discrimination within Chinese, it's just even dumber. Fighting about who's better, more Chinese, etc. I love how Chinese people just love to fight with each other. You see that in every part of the history ever since the beginning.

I love how people like to pick out what I said and use it to their advantage. Not once did I say all Han Chinese are all prejudiced or bad. I'm not particularly fond of or hate Chinese people in any way. I'm just sick and tired of people being uneducated about China and pretend to be know it all when they actually know jack.


Of course it's not all Han vs. Mongol. In reality it's just one kind of Chinese versus another kind of Chinese. I only used that because I have first hand experience from close to home. And kudos to your dad.

Oh yes.



She never said the only racism had to do with han vs mongols & only that way.

I'm appalled by that too. I guess it is easy for peole to say there is no discrimination when they are not being discriminatied or for various reasons they just couldn't see it happening. I think they are in deep denial.

I don't think so. The system is still unequal for minorities in China. Minorities are being confined in some loactions but Han Chinese are moving everywhere because now they can afford to. As a group Han Chinese is way more powerful than minorities because of the population and wealth discrepancy. As the wealth gap is going larger, the minorities are going under. If you take a look at the map of China, you will find that almost all major minorities habitats are very poor and lack of many kinds of resources. These people fight for subsistence everyday. I worry that once the current Chinese cheap labour are rich enough, the minorities would take up their places and become the cheap labour for the whole Chinese nation, like Mexican to American.


Kudos to you for speaking out.

Of course, some suburban raised rich kid will be clueless if you ask them about discrimination in society. It applies to any kid of that upbringing anywhere. The system? It will always be unequal. We don't live in an Utopian society. I try to think about the positive. Something is better than nothing. More schools and hospitals in remote regions in ARs of China.

Minorities are already like cheap labors like illegal immigrants in the US already and the numbers will only increase but the only difference about these minorities is that they are actually legit Chinese citizens. Ironic, is it not? Anybody who says in China, everyone is treated equally without discrimination need to take that comment and eat it, and then have the worst kind of diarrhea afterwards.

I love the way you said it,its so effortless,its almost like you were not born in china and are not a chinese person.
i ever wonder how you became the co-president of your school's chinese club.when you doesnt even consider yourself to be a chinese person.

Not saying that we should build an utopian society, but what I was saying was that the "improvements" are just sands in the sea, and mean very little when you compare to the social system of today's. In America, public schools are free for all people, but still minorities have a lower rate of education. Fact is minorities are harder to find a decent job than white mainstream American male. Furthermore, the system does not evaluate minorities' cultures, for example IQ test. The huge wealth discrepancy is what preventing the equal opporturnity. Like I said before, discrimination is not only about ethnicity, socail status is a major part of it. Imagine the minorities were in a power position and what would happen to the rest of Han Chinese? well we don't need to imagine, Qing and Yuan were the best examples. Problem is minorities in China have no power whatsoever.

^There's a reason why they don't have power whatsoever and the ones in power are puppets. It's called keeping the United States of China one country. >_>

Wow very informative indeed.

She has ever right to say what she believes given that her reason is legitimate and does not promote hatred. It's freedom of speech. On the other hand, I doubt so about your comment, which in my eyes is just a personal attack.


Lol are you being sarcastic?
By power I did not mean political power only. Power also includes buying power and power to be able to stand up on their own feet.
It won't help if you just give them political power. They will still be marginalized if there is no push to allow them to stand up. With political power, they still won't be able to compete with Han Chinese in the market. They need capital of various kinds.

Well obviously I was sarcastic about the US of China bit. Power or no power, China is trying to keep the country whole. Too much power given to minority groups can result in internal conflicts and independence movements. In the end, every country has their share of problems. Hopefully it'll be better in the future.

Is DearCoolz still beechin'? lol it's not like I can read what he's saying. If you are, then dude, keep your cool.

I am really sad to hear that this sort of thing happen in China. After all, the modern Han chinese themselves are not 100% pure, some of the southern han chinese have mixed with the tai-kadai people and some of the northern han chinese have mixed with altaic people BUT MOST of these intermarriage offsprings are now considered Han chinese !

So I would still consider Mongolians, Manchurians, Tibetans, Zhuang, Tai as Chinese as we all have Northern Mongoloid looks and have a LONG shared history.

I guess it is the same attitude between the germans and the english, even though they are both europeans and are genetically close, they tend to bicker.

However, I can't really say the same thing with regards to the uyghur who are culturally, linguistically, genetically so different from the chinese. They are closer to the europeans/arabs.

^Uyghurs are closer to Turkish and Arabs and Persians. Tajiks speak a Persian dialect since they aren't Turkic. But as far as nationality goes, everybody has the same nationality in China, but ethnic difference is certainly there. Hopefully with education, people will become more understanding of each others' customs and culture.

Suren911, from above quotes I concluded that you don't have first hand experience in China,
you don''t know what 1 child policy is about(you would if you actually been in a chinese school),
and your intention is rather make trouble than have some true discussion.

What you say here are either lies or statements loaded with racial hatred. I don't know why you take a fake identity and tell lies here, I do belive you hate chinese, please don't pretend to be a chinese, based on your statements here, I conclude you are not.

I have had contact with many minorities, including Hui, Meng, Man, both in and outside china, it never came in my thought that they might in someway less because they are not Han. I can tell you, an ordianary Han from mainland china see any of these minorities as their own people, chinese, this is what we called ZhongHuaMingZu. If you think we Han's look at minotries the same way like white americans look at blacks, then you are not only completely wrong, it's also another proof that you never lived in china and know nothing about how chinese are.

It looks like you have relatives from china, and heard some bad stroies, then you look at whites/blacks relationship in the u.s and think it must be the same in China. It's a silly thing to do, I suggest you get a life and stop spreading hatred and lies here.

Have you actually been south china where millions of cheap workers are, and asked them how many of them are minorites? Are you trying to say that china has a policy to use minorities as cheap labors?

I really think some mod should take action now, this Suren911 is spreading false information in order to create racial hatred.

Whether it is false or not is not for you or I to judge. If we had more members who are PRC citizens from minority ethnic groups, they might be able to either corroborate or refute Suren911's opinions. Unfortunately I don't think we have more than one or two such members (Warhead is a Manchu, and Dearcoolz is a Hui). So the best we can do is let both you and Suren911 have your say, and allow members to decide for themselves who is giving a more accurate picture. Anyone who can be incited to 'racial hatred' by a single member's words probably already has some grievances anyway.

I don't think you can use your example to represent the entire Han ethnic group. Nor do I find your generalizations about white-black relations in the US to be fair. You seem to assume there are very few whites who will treat blacks with respect. American members here have as much right to be offended by such comments as you have the right to be offended by Suren911's comments about ethnic relations in the PRC.

Well it''s indeed a pity that there are not many chinese ethnic miorities here, and not many mainland chinese here. So someone with dark intention can obviously tell lies about china, misleading and confusing ppl.

The point I made about blacks/whites in the u.s, well don't get me wrong, I know perfectly well that most white ppl treat blacks fair. But I live among white ppl long enough to understand the difference, the blacks in the u.s can never reach the level of acceptance with whites as for example hui's have with han's in china, the feeling of superiority with whites is just too strong.

I don't know what I said was hateful and I don't feel like I have anything to apologize for. If reality was too harsh for some people to handle then don't read what I have to say. I'd love to see the world through a rose colored glass. But it only takes common sense to understand that when there's ethnic differences, there's bound to be discrimination. You can agree or disagree with me, but you must be very naive to believe that every Han Chinese is just so culturally open and understanding of minorities.

And I love how some people just love to misunderstand my words. I never generalized about the entire Han ethnicity. I merely said that people are still rather clueless and ignorant about minorities. You ask any random Han Chinese down the street about the customs of a Hui or Tibetan, s/he probably can't tell you that much. But I'm happy to see that in recent years, a surge of interest in Manchu history and culture and of other ethnic groups' have developed and that people are taking their time to learn more about the various ethnicities in China. After all they are Chinese too and that you'd know not to serve pork dishes when having a Hui friend over and whatnot.

I live in the US and I have a lot of black friends. I see subtle discrimination when I'm with them all the time. Those things are very minute and hard for people to pick out, but you can definitely see it. The way they're stared at at a more white area, etc. e.g. a white bus driver stops and it the traffic light turned green. He closes the door and is about to start driving. A white person comes, he opens the door. A black person comes, he may drive off without letting him/her in. Job places (hiring new workers etc), department stores, there's definitely a difference between the way whites are treated and blacks are treated. Whether it's obvious discrimination and racism like the KKK or subtle racism like being followed by a worker at a department store just because you're black, it's all there. It's a part of human nature. If you'd like to say that the US is a discrimination free welcoming melting pot, then sure, go right ahead.

If you took what I said as offensive and can't take even one bit of criticism, then you're obviously insecure about your cultural openness and knowledge. Being able to criticize yourself constructively can lead to great development of your character. I was ignorant about my ethnicity and nationality and thought my blood meant everything to me, but it's not necessarily that way. Understanding your culture and people means a lot too. In the process, you learn about the good and bad and of your people (c'mon nobody's perfect) and learn to see things more critically. That may or may not be a good thing, but I choose to see than not to see.

Hahaha that's hilarious. I lived in Northeast China for 9 years since birth till age 9 till I went abroad. I visit China and am fluent in Mandarin. I am as Chinese as one gets. I have been in a Chinese school and I know about the one child policy. Ask any person down the street in China. It's meant to cut down the population in urban areas. If you aren't qualified for more kids but you have them anyways you get fined severely blah blah. This is the first time someone questioned my Chinese-ness online. Oh man I'm getting a kick out of this. 怎么, 你想剥我的皮, 抽我的筋, 看我是不是中国人? 我看你不是中国人吧?

Well good for you if you think minorities are all Chinese because they are. I don't think you're at a stance to generalize about the entire Han Chinese population. I haven't just heard stories. I've seen it happen. I don't think you've seen anything and that's why you're judging me. Like a blind man telling me what an elephant looks like.

There is one other member Tungus is Taiwan-born Manchu,he doesn't come often though.

What we can request of Suren911,calm down and be little rational as we hear her out on HOW life is like for non-Sinicized ethnic miniroties like Mongolians and others.

I think the Germans and English get along just fine, it should be the French vs the English.

Are we talking about Canada now?

Hi lady,
Don't be so angry. Have you been to Beijing or any other big cities in China? If you have been there, I guess you will realise the racial 'discrimination' you hated is not a racial one. I've met many muslim, mongolian, Manchu even Tujia and zhuang people in Beijing and never heard anyone of them complain about racial discrimination, on the contrary, being minority means many advantages in China. But I did meet many people, mostly Han, from poor place hate to be discriminated. Of course, it's very subtle sometimes and the discriminatin of poor can take a racial form. But these people will change their ideas very fast, as long as you take on a good cloth. I doubt anyone will discriminate you in China. Many will admire you because you are from America and look fasionable. But they won't consider you Chinese, they will consider you American.

Yes, Chinese are snobbish. But doubtfully more snobish than any where else. I see plenty of snobish American too.

I'm a Han. I like mongolian girl and dated one in Beijing before. She never told me she felt racial discrimination and she got 5 points plus in the college entrance examination because she's minority.

Nobody is denying discrimination does not exist in China. Yes, Chinese could be very racist especially towards people who is having darker skin complexion.

But the notion of Han Chinese is very vague in these days. You rarely hear any Han Chinese proudly call himself "Han". Most of the Han Chinese do not think of themselves as Han ethnic but rather affiliate with the region they come from or the dialect they speak.

From what you wrote abrove, I would say it hardly constitutes as "racism". It is more like a social discrimination. I will say the people who you called "racist" will probably treat a not well-to-do Han Chinese from Canton region who speaks only broken mandarin no better than the way he treated the poor mongol.



Don't mix it up with US. The ethnic situation in US bear no simiarity with China. Although China officially has 56 ethnic groups, minus the Ughyur and Russian, the rest of the ethnics are mongoloid with similar physical feature and culture. The contrast between Mongol and Han Chinese is much smaller than, say, Black American and white American.

Just cherish what you got right now. Don't you know how many hard-working Han Chinese students are denied from College entry because of the point-adding system to minority?. If you think it is a great insult to the mongol people's intelligent, you should petition to the PRC government to abolish it. But at that time you maybe going to start a thread whining about how the Han people mistreat the minority by allowing the Han people pour in to the College.




Don't play the race card in here. The PRC done the same shxt to the Han Chinese or even worse. The ongoing Yangtze Three Gorges Dam construction is purported to destroy any thousand years old archaeological and cultural sites (notably Bai Di Cheng- the place where Liu Bei passed away) when it is completed in 2009. The PRC government is currently to trying to resettle the residents in that region so they won't get drowned. Last time I heard many residents still refuse to leave the place.

Duh.. You are living in China where the Han Chinese has always been the majority throughtout the history.
It is like a Turkish living in Germany and complain about the Turkish only represent a small fraction of the population.



If you think you are Chinese, why dont find a way to stop the internal fighting between Chinese instead of just sitting here like a bystander and enjoying ?


Welcome to BBS.

This is not limited to Chinese though.Japanese ALSO discriminate againt their own kind, the " Burakumins " are ethnic Japanese.Europeans don't accept white-Americans or Canadians as " real Europeans " either,and Eastern European Slavs are look down upon as inferior by other European-kins.

Chinese are intermixed descendants of various Mongoloid tribes,it's Han culture bonds us together nothing more.

I am in fact very calm. I think it's other people here who can't take any criticism who're freaking about my anti-Chinese and potential dangerous presence. Telling mods to ban me because oh my god I said China isn't a Utopian society and there's... *gasps* discrimination in China? NO WAY.


Again, I'm not angry. If I was angry I would've be here. The minorities who have it easier and living in the big cities are among the fortunate ones whose parents were rich enough to send them to schools. Not all are like that. For every one educated minority following the mainstream Chinese culture, there's a dozen who can't even speak Mandarin well let alone get jobs and whatnot. There is definitely a lot of social discrimination within China, even within one ethnic group. e.g. a non-Mandarin speaking Cantonese will obviously have a hard time in a Mandarin speaking city. Discrimination occurs in so many dimensions. I mentioned the one closest to heart because I am half Inner Mongolian and people pretty much exploded on me and called me a racist, not even acknowledging the fact that I'm also Chinese at the same time. Anyways, overall, there's no real significant discrimination towards Mongols or other minority groups, but there is a stigma attached to being a Mongol. I'm not sure if anybody is familiar with the term "dazi" (pronounced 'dahz') which comes from the term Tatar. It's a derogatory term for Mongols basically, equivalent to the N word in the US. There's also Dahuur for Daurs which is also derogatory. There are other ones' for other minority groups too. They're old terms and certainly not taught in schools but older generations still know them. Inter-ethnic dating wasn't very accepted and still aren't in various parts of China and the term "dazi" was thrown around in my dad's face a lot when they were dating because other people didn't approve of him dating my mom. In the city, you don't hear much things about it but I can tell you a lot of stereotypes and prejudices that Han Chinese have towards Mongols and Mongol + Han marriage is still taboo. The last decade has improved immensely, however.


Please don't use the word Mongoloid. It's an offensive term. Just like the word "oriental." The Uyghur and Russian aren't the only non-East Asian ethnicities. Tajik, Kazakh, Uzbek, and a lot of Yunnan minorities are actually Southeast Asians.


Oh I'm perfectly happy with what I have. But don't throw that at me as if I should be thankful. I'm thankful for my nation and certainly don't need somebody who doesn't even know me to educate me and tell me how to think. As for the points system. Whatever. It's good and bad, just like Affirmative Action in the US. The more I read what you say the more you sound righteous and ignorant. I lived in China for half of my life and perfectly aware of the hardship that students go through to pass entrance exams. Sounds like you're the one who's really unhappy with it. If you're so unhappy that minorities get extra points, leaving out a lot of Han students, then why don't YOU sign a petition to the PRC government to abolish it?


I'm sure you would love to take the lead. Right after you.


Of course there's discrimination within the population in every country. But China definitely has it worse than a lot of the other ones. You don't see the modern day Japanese having wars with their Burakumin leather workers do you? Just flip through your Chinese history book. It's so depressing. Kins killint other kins for one bloody throne.

[GZ Warning: Hun has received punishment from me for swearing on the forum. He has been put on mod preview for using the F-word and attempting to sour conflict between han-chinese and mongol-chinese. Further violation of our forum rules will result in further disciplinary action.]

True,ethnic strifes more prevail in China.However,we also need to take into account to the fact China is a continental multi-ethnic nation.I for one can understand why majority Japanese are against Japan becoming more " multi-cultural " as they can obvious see what's happening in China for much of her history to this day.

Not outwardly,but subtlely as Japanese are emotionally passive in nature when comes to expressing their opinions.

Chinese modern time history is quite " depression " for me and many other Chinese as we continue to bear the burden and shame of China's decline and collapse of Sinosphere in the region,I often deliberately avoid books or chapters written between 1840-1980.

You left china at age of 9, that means you know little about China, I don't need to question your chinese-ness, for me, you are not chinese, simply because you are not acting as one. I suggest you make those statments in front of a group of chinese, and see who will still regard you as chinese. Your way of thinking is not chinese either, you try to make troulbe, trying to relate every problem with racial issue.
You also provide false information, trying to mislead people here.

Why you are doing this puzzles me, I think you are probably suffering an identity crisis, as many ABC , being seen as a chinese must be a real insult for you while you have no other identity to take, so you have to defend your 'chinese' identity on the one hand, and attack it on the other hand. Such things as ' I am a chinese, I love to see chinese fight among themselves' can only come from a twisted mind.

It's so silly, do yourself a favour, drop the chinese identity, call yourself american mongolian or something.
你以为会说中国话就是中国人了 ? 剥皮抽筋 ? 你皮里筋里写着你是中国人么? 中国人都有一颗中国心，
你没有中国心， 所以不是中国人，白求恩是中国人， 因为他有一颗中国心。 这个道理都不懂， 还自称什么中国人， 算了吧， 你就能在这骗骗不了解中国情况的人， 挑拨中国民族和谐， 还装出一副受害者的嘴脸， 难道你在中国的时候有人因为你不是汉人而歧视过你 ? 我看你在美国受到的歧视恐怕多得多。我懒得和你废话了。

let me help you, read your own word below, and apply it to yourself, exclude yourself from chinese, at least you won't need to contradict yourself anymore. And you don't worth any of my time anymore, I will stop here.

This is just too much, it is like the CCP government censor talking here. Drop the issue about Chineseness immediately.

挑拨中国民族和谐? I don't know whether to laugh or what. So many people were put to death and to jail because they 挑拨中国民族和谐; do you want to do that? By your definition, anyone who critizes China can be considered not Chinese, well I don't want to be Chinese like the one you are then! Speak with a point or say nothing at all. As Mark Twain said, "it is better to shut your mouth and be thought as an idiot than to open your mounth and prove yourself as one." You, my friend, just proved yourself as one.

You can disagree with Suren 911, many of us do and we all agrue that the matter is not all racial. Nonetheless, discriminations of various kinds still exist and they exist because people, like you, are in denial.

If it really does not exist, fine, let she or us bark and people will just ignore the claims. However, it is not up to you to say that she has no right to speak up. You comparing China to America? China will never be on par with America if people think what you think. American allow to a much larger extent that American can critize their country. Have you not seen Micheal Moore? I haven't heard anybody to say he is promoting conflict between American ethnicity groups.

Let me predict, if you respond to this post you will probably say that I'm not Chinese too. I really don't care, because I can say the same to you and it will be just your words against mine. At the end, your comment means nothing but pure personal insult. I suggest a mod preview to be put on you.

Cool it, people.

I see some signs of miscommunication, or talking in different wavelengths here.

I noticed Suren911's posts sometimes give out conflicting signals, but as Singaporean Chinese, I do not see her hating Chinese or despising them - I put the conflicting signals to be a communication skill issue rather than any innate negative disposition to Chinese.

I would like to ask the CHF staff to lay down one rule here, please.

No forummer, regardless of background, is to be allowed to *judge* another forummer whether the latter is a Chinese, or French, or whatever ethnic/cultural/religious affiliation.

Yes, I can empathise being upset for one Chinese to see another person claiming to be Chinese and submitting posts which are deemed to be anti-Chinese, but we should maintain this at an objective level.

By all means, point out the *contents* and show why you think they are anti-Chinese or whatever, but refrain from targetting the person.

Please do not ask Suren911 to stop considering herself Chinese - no person has a monopoly to decide who is and who is not Chinese unless *nationality* is concerned.

Ok I will not ask her to stop considering herself as chinese, I just don't see her as chinese, it's my opinion and I have the right to express myselfs here. Mod Warning: Actually you don't, personal attacks on individual members are not allowed here. 10% warning.

Ashura, I do see you as chinese, I didn't see you say things like ' I love to see chinese fight among themselves', it makes no sense for a chinese person to say such things. Critisizing is one thing, intentionally creating 'communication chaos' to misleading people is other thing. If you think I am someone who only want to defend chinese government then you should go to the chinese language section here, you will see me critisize how chinese government treats refugees there.

I am not denying discrimination exist in China, but Racial discrimination is really rare among chinese. I do think there were some racial discrimination toward black students who were studying in China, and that immediately draw quite a lot of attention in China. But china's Han's don't think they are better than the minorities because of their RACE, we consider ourself to be a mixture of everything and we don't look down on minorites, this general feeling is what it is about, and not some induvidual issues or accidents.

You can agree or disagree with me, I respect your opinion because I know your intension is clear and honest, unlike some other person, who's real intension is hidden and dark.

One more thing, we mainland chinese do critisize our government a lot(not in public, yes), but somehow when we leave china, we are more eagered to defend it, maybe because after all we see it do more good things than bad things, and we see western goverenments are not saints either. Please accept my appology if my words offended you in anyway.