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galvatron
I have a question to ask ,are Fong Sai Yuk , Hong Hei Goon And Wing Chun really exist in history as a person or fiction character ,are they play a rebel role in qing history and how they shall judge ,hero of china or rebel of china ,thank you .
Wujiang
They existed.
But fiction and drama often misrepresented them.
Alan 阿兰
About a year ago i've posted a reply on another forum on a topic regarding the Shaolin roots of the Southern martial arts schools. In this reply i've presented a personal theory based on different stories i've heard regarding the events wich lead to the foundation of the major southern styles and this events included names like Fong Sai Yuk , Hong Hei Goon and Wing Chun. I've made some researches based on historical evidence and logic, i had put the myths away as much as posible and try to figure out the real history. Here is the message i've posted there:

When the Ming dinasty was puted away by manciurian Qing dinasty, the people were not so happy about the new rulers. Some generals, officials and followers of the Ming started an anti Qing movement. A fact that was lost in history is that we can't say for sure if the monks hided on purpose the leaders of Ming or if the Ming rebels had infiltrate themselfs as monks in the Shaolin Temple from Henan. Probably the monks were not to happy about the Qing rulers too, because for centuries they had the imperial suport and patronage. One of the Ming officials was the grandfather of Hung Hei Goon [founder of Hung Gar] who changed his family name from Jyu[Zhu] to Hung to honor the first Ming emperor Hung Mo [Hong Mu] wich is considered one of the best emperors that China ever had. Anyway, the Qing emperor named Sai Chung sent the army to destroy the Temple from Henan. Some of the monks and some of the rebels and also some members of the Ming royal family had escaped and took refuge in the southern China.

There at the Southern Shaolin Temple named Linquanyuan[Shaolin Fukien] they continued to spread the rebelion. One of the monks who escaped from the destruction of Songshan Temple was Zhi Shan[Ji Sin/ Jee Shim] and his student Hung Hei Goon. There at the Linquanyuan Temple the rebels had establish two secret anti Qing societys wich are known to be the first Tong[Triada] organizations.This two societys were called Hung Moon [Hung Men] and Wing Chun Tong[The Beautiful Spring Society]. From the activity of the secret anti Qing societies the Shaolin Fukien Temple was named Jiuliashan. Hung Hei Goon was not exactly a monk, he was a layman disciple of Ji Sin who eventualy became the abbot of Southern Shaolin Temple. As a layman Hei Goon married Lau YingChun who gave birth to a son named Hung Manding. Later she will die and when in 1768 after what the emperor had sent the army to the southern Shaolin too and Hung Hei Goon rejoined the rebelion he met and married Fong Wing Chun who was a member of the Wing Chun Tong society along with Yim Wing Chun [founder of Wing Chun Kuen]. Fong Wing Chun was also named "The Third Lady of Wing Chun". Both Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun have learned the White Crane style from nun Ng Mui who was also identified as Fang Qiniang [the founder of Withe Crane]. Later Hung Hei Goon will include elements from Withe Crane wich he learned from his wife in his own style [Hung Gar]. Some sources say that in the time of the Wing Chun Tong activity this systems were called Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun and Chi Sim Wing Chun and the first form of Wing Chun - Siu Lim Tao [aprox. The Little Idea or The Small Thought] - was inspired by the members of the royal family of the Ming dinasty Chu. This is the real conection between Hung Gar and Wing Chun as Shaolin systems. Continuing with ower story, after the destruction of the southern temple the rebelion was spread. Ji Sin and Hung Hei Goon had returned to Jiuliashan after burning, and Ji Sin advised Hung Hei Goon to return to Guangdong [Kuantung] and to continue the rebelion there. So after the destruction of the Southern Shaolin Temple, those who escaped had to run and hide in different parts of Southern China. Among them were Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun, Ji Sin, Hung Hei Goon, Choy Fok[master of Chan Heung - the founder of Choy Li Fut], Li Yao San[founder of Li Gar and also one of Chan Heung's masters], and others. Later Ji Sin who had many followers had sent some of them to Kuantung to study with Hung Hei Goon. One of them was Luk Ah Choi who will continue the lineage of Hung Gar after Hung Hei Goon. The history of the most Southern Shaolin systems is conected in one way or another with this events, including the 5 classic family styles of Southern Shaolin [Choy Gar, Li Gar, Mok Gar, Lao Gar, Hung Gar].

So this is why this styles are linked to Shaolin. Begining from this point in history this styles will be related with the most rebelions and anti Qing movements from China including The Boxers Rebelion. The english are those who called this societys "Triada". After the falling of the Qing dinasty some of this Tong's [Triads] lost the conection with their ancestors anti Qing ideals of freedom and became what is today the chinese mafia. Based on some relics found in the 80's they establish the probably location of the lost Southern Shaolin Temple because the relics were making conection between Hung Moon society and Linquanyuan and later in the 90's they find it. Hung Gar as the other "classic family styles" is considered to be a school of Shaolin. So from what i've read about Jow Ga Kung Fu history, Jow Lung had studied Hung Gar style of Shaolin and later Shaolin Kung Fu with a monk. Considering this, Jow Gar is related with Shaolin trough this two schools. Thats why we call it a Shaolin style. As many other styles wich also have their origins, legendary or not, at Shaolin. So this is how the Southern Shaolin styles are conected by history. The most of them have a lot of legends surounding their history, only for Wing Chun i've read about 5 different stories. I've tried to put away all the legends wich anyway can't be proven by any historical dates, and also i've tried to make this history based on logic and historic informations.I think this could make some sense.

This was the message i've posted there, you can find some interesting informations about Hong Hei Goon and Wing Chun and their relation with the anti Qing movements. Anyway this is just a theory, there could be other theories much better and much complete then this one.

Wujiang
Without checking on my notes, I can spot at least three different areas for which either comes from fiction or simply chronological impossibility.

The most obvious of all is that there are absolutely no reason to believe that Wu Mei (Ng Mui) was Fang Qiling. It is a simple case of maths. Assuming that Wu Mei (Ng Mui) was indeed the founder of Wing Chun and passing it onto Yim Yi and Yim Wingchun, it took 6 generations for it to reach Yip Man. Who was born in 1893. Yet it is commonly accepted that Fang Qiliang founded the Baihequan sometime during reign of Shunzhi (1644-1662). Chances of one crossing a three hundred year gap in 6 generations are really unlikely.

I however, would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and examine your sources to see they are indeed reliable. Perhaps you can state the primary sources for your claims on this 'history' ?
Rong Qin Wang
Zunjing de Galvatron Xian Sheng,

Of course, Fong Sai Yuk, Hong Hei Goon, and Wing Chun were all real historical figures; however, these people are more commonly known to people like us as the Wu Xia heroes they have been portrayed in TV Dramas and movies. These sources of entertainment certainly gave us some fictional accounts, which would lead us into some misinterpretations. The balance between history and fictions in dramas is not always easy. This would be more difficult for spectators like us to differentiate between fact or fiction. However, I believe Alan did a wonderful job at just listing the historical events surrounding these characters and filtering out all the unnecessary materials. Of course, everyone would already be aware of the fictional accounts, so there is no need to repeat any of that.

How shall they be judged; heroes of China or rebels of China? This would certainly vary greatly according to the viewpoints. Of course, in the Qing’s viewpoint, they were rebels as they never followed any of the rules and were always looking for ways to fight the government to restore the Ming regime dominated by the ethnic group of Han. However, to the Han Chinese and civilians, they were no doubt big heroes as they were skilled in martial arts and helped poor/old/weak people to defend themselves against the corrupted local officers. Of course, they were not national heroes since they did not necessarily protect their country.

If you ask me, I would definitely say that they were very valiant heroes since civilians really needed these types of heroes to handle corrupted ministers with great ease to lead them into a much better lifestyle.
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