Only have a few things to start of

Firstly the salar where known to be very aggressive fighters

and that chinese main warrier group where from the hui and the northern muslims in xianjiang.

I also have the grandmaster ma xianda http://www.silatusa.com/chineseMuslimGrandMasterMaXianda.htm

if anyone can elaborate or add to this, that would be really great,

I wonder where you get this piece of infomation. Seems like classic egocentic statements to me. The Mongolians considers themselves to be the best warriors due the achievements of Yuan. The Manchurian considered themselves to be the best fighters due to the might of the Baqi. The tibetans considers themselves to be the best warruirs due to sheer aggressiveness. The Han considers themselves the greatest warriors since it is them and that ruled China for the majority of the time and subjegated everyone else and had the most wars (abit with themselves most of the time).



The link doesn't work for me for some reason.

The information i got for the hui comes from this article. http://www.cpamedia.com/politics/hui_muslims_in_china/

not sure why your link doesn't work, i will include some text below.

Author's note:
This is the complete interview. The article that appeared in the magazine was a shortened version, but it included the Chinese characters and additional informational sidebars.

Ma Xianda "In an effort to standardize Chinese martial arts, the People's Republic of China (PRC) established a national ranking system for masters, the Duan system. Officially commencing in 1997, there are nine levels of Duan. Currently, only four living masters have been recognized as the highest level, Ninth Duan. The youngest of which is Grandmaster Ma Xianda of Xian, China's old capital.

The most recent testimony of Ma's expertise that Americans might recognize is his student, Gao Xian, who played a major supporting role in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. But Master Gao is only one of Grandmaster Ma's remarkable legacy. More than twenty of Ma's close students have earned the coveted title of Wu Yin or "martial hero," a title conferred on athletes who have repeatedly placed in the top three positions in national competition.) Ma's own sons, Ma Yue and Ma Lun, are national champions and noted masters as well. Ma Xianda comments that Ma Yue got a lot of spankings when he started at age five, but actually he was "pretty good." At age 11, Ma Yue won the Xian city and Shaanxi province all round championships and beat renowned International Wushu champ Zhao Changjun. In 1983, he won a four "gold award", placing first in fanzi, pigua, short weapon and straight sword. Ma Lun captured the National Sanda (free sparring) Championship when he was 17. Now he is a respect coach and international certified referee of Sanda. And of the six Sanda Wang (free sparring kings) that now reign in China, two trained under Ma Lun. Beyond his kin, Ma also coached the aforementioned champion Zhao Changjun for a while and even taught Jet Li what would become one of Jet's favorite forms, Fanziquan.

Ma was born in 1932 to a Muslim family who trace their martial arts roots back six generations. Since 9/11, Muslims have been so profiled, but it's easy to forget that there are many types of Muslims today. Chinese Muslims, or Hui, represent the largest minority of the largest population in the world and have as much connection with. Bin Laden as Christians have with Hitler. Originally from Hebei, Ma learned from his father Ma Fengtu and uncle Ma Yintu, both noted masters in their own right. Ma Fengtu was a general under famed warlord Feng Yuxiang. Ma Yingtu also produced Zhang Wenguang, another ninth Duan holder. Ma Xianda learned many traditional Wushu forms including Tongbei Pigua, Kaimen Baji, Ba Shan Fen, and Cuo Jiao and also studied western boxing, wrestling and fencing. In fact, Ma was one of the very first Chinese to study western martial sports.

In 1952, the first martial arts championship was held after the founding of the PRC in 1949. Ma captured the Lei Tai championship, a free fighting event where fighters knock each other off an elevated platform, defeating Tongbi master Deng Hongzhao and Cuo Jiao master Li Xuewen. He also took the Short Weapon Fighting Champion and the Wushu Performance Grand Champion. He won all this at the young of 19. The following year, Ma won the Huabei Short Weapon Tournament. This included competitors from Beijing, Tianjin, Hebei, Shaanxi and Inner Mongolia. Ma won every single bout.

Ma went on to dedicate his life to the martial arts. After graduating from Hebei Teachers’ College, he took a position at the Xian Physical Education College to teach Wushu, Boxing and fencing. He became a full professor there and taught for 30 years. Ma estimates that he has taught nearly 10,000 students, both Chinese and non-Chinese over his expansive career, including many national coaches and champions. Ma authored many books and papers on Wushu, including editing the Zhongguo Wushu Da Cidian (Chinese Wushu Encyclopedia) and earned many illustrious titles over his long career. Probably the most illustrious came in 1995 when he was recognized as one of China's Top Ten Professors of Chinese Martial Arts.

In 1998, Ma was recognized as a Ninth Duan holder. In May of 2002, Ma celebrated his 70th birthday and Kungfu Qigong Publisher Gigi Oh caught up with him for an exclusive interview. As an outspoken authority on Chinese martial arts, we are pleased to be able to bring you the first interview with Ma Xianda in English.

On the Development of Chinese Martial Arts
If we use Chinese communist jargon "I am a lao bing (old soldier.)" My whole life has been devoted to the martial arts. I am a professional martial artist. Wushu has been developing since 1949. Indeed, our government has devoted itself to making many improvements but some of those improvements have a degree of flaw. Just like our Chinese old saying "Even if you have a good heart, you don't get best reward" we don't see a good effect. I can even go so far to say that there is a certain degree of damage to our ancient cultural inheritance. This is due to some misguidance of government policy. For instance, in 1949 we had a policy of wa shang ding (literally translates as "a three-legged wine cup from the Shang Dynasty" but it was used as a catch phrase meaning "dig out the ancient treasures.") That was good until 1955, when the whole policy changed 180 degrees. The government revoked what they were doing and pressed down Wushu, especially the old, traditional, good part of Wushu. That was for a long time. Also they were trying to promote modern Wushu, not the old traditional good stuff."

For example, take China's historic hero, General Qi Jiguang. Historically, his position should be higher than the legendary Yue Fei. Yue Fei fought against the people of the Jin minority. Qi Jiguang fought against the Japanese pirates. He led his troop of 7000 soldiers to defend the Zhejiang coast for 10 years and he totally destroyed the Japanese pirates there. Even many Japanese respect him because they know he was a great general. He was also a promoter and teacher of Chinese Wushu. In his famous 14 chapter book, Ji Shou Ching Hua, he devoted 4 chapters to Wushu. Chi Jiguang was very opposed to flowery Wushu, only pretty or elegant for show for an audience. It's like a beautiful mansion that is empty inside. The Wushu that Qi Jiguang wants to promote is real ability and combat fighting. Surely this is the central core of Wushu. But it is not complete Wushu. Wushu still needs longevity, health and mind cultivation to make it complete. But never forget, the central core is ji (strike.) You must have real combat fighting ability, definitely not a "flowery blooming, only for watching" Wushu.

Following 1949, we have been following in the path of flowery type of Wushu and that caused a lot of damage to Wushu. If you strike or kick, they call you weiji (only want to fight.) Not long ago, Zhongguo Wushu magazine interviewed me and I revealed two hats -one is weiji, the other is fugu (recover ancient.) I think the general public misunderstood me. I am definitely not weiji. I objectively look at Wushu as a whole. Even Taijiquan has an aspect of ji. As soon as you start, you have the "hands holding a ball" posture and that can be used to strike. They all have ji.”

After 1949, the government invested a lot of money to promote Wushu. The communists actually put in more money than the Republic of China (ROC.) Chiang Kai Shek set up the Zhong Yang Guoshuguan (Central Guoshu Institute) and appointed General Zhang Zijiang as the director. The Board of Directors included noted martial leaders such as Lin Sen, Chiang Kai Shek, Sun Ke (a relative of Sun Yat Sen,) Dai Chuan Xian and others. They placed it under Department of Education and also established the Guoli Guoshu Tiyu Zhuanke Xuexiao (Guoshu Physical Education Academy.) Every province established its own guoshuguan (martial arts training hall) under the direction of the governor of that province. The Vice Director was actually the administrator and did all the work. This frame is huge. Big hats, no money. Titles without pay. A lot of good stuff was done during the General Zhang Zijiang, because they tried to combine Wushu with western physical education. Wushu can’t be stuck in the nan bing qi (cold weapon) period, that’s too obsolete, so you have to combine it with physical education. The special character of Wushu is still gong (offense,) fang (defense) and jinen (combat ability.) Wushu and physical education has the same quality. That is culture. We can use Wushu's three special characters combined with western-developed system. That is a very good thing that General Zhang Zijiang did. He also got rid of some of the weeds of Chinese Wushu. Wuhua was not all good. It still had some bad parts.

When the Cultural Revolution hit, it got even worse. They pulled out the essence – the fighting combat. They only left the empty frame. And they still say they are promoting San Shou, Short Weapon and Long Weapon. If you say Wushu has ji, then you are the guilty party and you will be pi pan (publicly humiliated). I cannot say I’m a warrior fighter, but all along I insist on the core part of Wushu. That is the base of Chinese Wushu.”

The Gang of Four corrupted everything, then Deng Xiaopeng came up and the Open Door Policy. A lot of frames were opened. Wushu was suddenly alive again. Sanda came up. Now we can talk about da. Also, the folk martial artists came out and ordinary people could practice Wushu. This is good. However, the policy of the governing body is not quite right. This is why we didn't get our expected result.

In the early 70's, I was training the first Wushu group going to the United States, but because I was not a communist and my background was not very good, I couldn't go. Nonetheless, I did all the ground work and wrote all the explanations. I wrote all the literature and terminology. I couldn't explain Wushu so I just translated it phonetically. After the U.S.A. trip, many American magazines described Wushu as traditional Chinese ballet - very pretty like a butterfly. But this was because they could only see the outside. They could not see the offence and defense capability.

On Kungfu, Guoshu and Guoshu
Ma_Xianda During the ROC (founded 1911,) and even today in Taiwan, it's called Guoshu (literally "national art.") They have their own reason for doing so. My father gave it the name Guoshu. He was the martial brother of Zhang Zijiang. At that time, Chinese painting was called guohua (national painting,) language was called guoyu (national language) and Chinese medicine was called guoyi (national medicine.) Naturally, Chinese Wushu was called Guoshu. And at that time, in Shandong, Hebei and Henan, the folk people called it bashiye (respect.) During the Qing (1644-1911) and Ming (1368-1644) Dynasties called it wuyi (martial skill.) The Qin (221-206 BCE) and Han (206 BCE-220 CE) Dynasties called it shoubo (hand fighting.) The Tang (618-907) and Song (960-1279) called it bian (whip.) Mabian (literally "bridal reign") were the bodyguards. The bian was also a weapon used to hit people. After 1949, they called it Wushu to distinguish it from the ROC term. Overseas people called it Kungfu, but I don't think this is correct because drinking tea has Kungfu. Kungfu is the degree of your achievement. Kungfu contains time and degree or level. If you use modern language, you can say it is your level of achievement.

On Olympic Wushu
In China, Sanda Wang is very hot because of media attention and the commercial packaging. On the contrary, taolu (forms competition) is standardized. It is more like dancing, so even the higher level national tournaments, there are not many spectators. Nobody likes to see 100 people doing the same thing. Even if Wushu Taolu went into the Olympics, it is not necessary a given that people will want to watch it. Not every category of the Olympics has an audience. If Wushu does not go into the Olympics, then all kinds of Chinese martial arts will bloom at the same time. But if it gets into the Olympics, and the government only pushes those little categories, other categories will die down. They will only feed that small group of professionals to represent the entire Chinese culture, over 1.2 billion people. This is the general feeling of Wushu societies.

I don't think it is quite in your favor to use a website intended for tourists as your source.

Not that I am harsh or anyhting but you might want to reorganize this thread or make clear what you wish to discuss. Lets review a little here.

(1) You start a thread talking about Muslim CMA but have failed to provide any systems in which is distinctlvely muslim.

(2) You have only provide info on a 'master' of comtempory, post PRC-wushu who just happens to be muslim.

Plase note that contempoary Post PRC wushu is a forbiddon topic here on the CMA forum and that discussion of modern teachers of CMA are discouraged.

Purhaps I might interest you in discussing certain systems that has muslim lineage such as Bajiquan, Piguaquan. Tantui, Chaquan, etc ?

you are absolutely right, the thread was started as a question more than a provider of answers.

why is post prc wushu forbidden?

In all honesty, I dont really know what you are trying to ask.



http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=10799
It is to keep with the central value of Guoxue here in CHF. Therefore, only traditional CMA systems are discussed so to not diviate from matters that are not inheritant of true Chinese martial wisdom.

I think if the PRC recognises this "Grandmaster" in any way that already discounts anything that he may teach. And if his student is a hero for starring in a successful film about flying (Though the story is good) it doesn't add anything to that notion. I'm not surprised that China has made duan rankings. That will be another way that they can prove to the world that Chinese indeed can succeed at anything except environmental protection. I am just about to go learn Kendo and I won't be surprised if it's all about competition, like Taekwondo over here is. There was absolutely no hint at them teaching any practical martial techniques when I visited schools.

Back to the topic: I have not been to Xinjiang and cannot really comment on the MA situation there, but I haven't heard anything either and so would assume that it is the same as around the other places that I have been to. Any "masters" would have had to migrate overseas so keep any CMA related skills and pass them all. I just heard today that there is a real master residing in Chongqing. I am not sure if this is true or not and am sorry to say that I haven't any more information at this time.

- Maarten Sebastiaan Franks Spijker

I don't mean to be the bearer of bad news, but I tried Kendo for a year and wasn't impressed. It is a sport rather than a martial art. I think the only practical value Kendo has is against another Kendoka... during a Kendo bout. The techniques and footwork are very basic and you must be prepared to make a lot of noise. Good points about it though; I found it a great way to train distancing and coordinated action. You learn to propel yourself forward with your hips, cut without tension and fight thoughtlessly.

I decided to trial what I had learnt against a friend who'd practised traditional gongfu for a short term. I had a shinai, he had a wooden dao. To my great shame, I couldn't place a single hit on him and he could parry my blows and disarm me effortlessly. My range of motion was so limited, whereas he could freely wield the dao from left to right or overhead and use his left hand to grasp or strike.

In response, my kendo sensei told me that kendo emphasised the "dou" (道), or way of swordsmanship, rather than the actual method of swordsmanship. I was recommended by someone else to try one of the traditional schools of kenjutsu, where they use low stances, like horse stance and cat stance, and a whole range of classical weaponry. But I think I'll just stick to Chinese martial arts, my greatest passion. In conclusion, I think kendo is a competitive sport invented during the era of Japanese imperialism to promote the Japanese martial spirit, but is in fact not the true art of the samurai.

ok guys, lets not forget that this forum should be limited to discussion on Chinese martial arts. Hence, lets go back to the original topic of muslim martial arts

well here is the beginning of my research, inshallah it will have more detail over the next few days


http://www.muslimwikipedia.com/mw/index.ph...se_Martial_Arts

It is now in a much more presentable form

http://www.muslimwikipedia.com/mw/index.ph...se_Martial_Arts

added the following systems to it
Ba ji quan
Pi gua zhang
tantui
cha quan
liu he quan
hui hui shi ba zhou
chi shi quan
tong bei quan
hsing i
ch quan

as well as famous muslim grand masters such as wang zi ping

I'm seeing one major problem here and that is that you randomly alternate with the Wade-Giles system of Chinese romanisation and Pinyin. Though Pinyin is prefered these days and is technically more accurate (For Mandarin), I suggest that you use one or include both and at least put one in parentheses. Also, I am lead to believe that most of these claims are quite biased.

- Maarten Sebastiaan Franks Spijker

I would prefer to use pinyin, but my mandarin pinyin is not that great, i only studied it for a few years, and that was some years back. Perhaps you could let me know which is the wade-giles word and its alternative pinyin.

Also i, would definately agree , it is a compilation of chinese martial arts that where either created by chinese muslim practicioners, or heavily influenced, in addition to summaries of the major chinese muslim grandmasters.

It is there to look at it from that particular angle.

I have found the research fascinating, and i know a lot of people are unaware of how heavily involved muslims where in chinese martial arts. Many people will truely be enlightened.

Dear Saladin

Thanks for your great job on initiating muslim wushu pages on wikipedia. I happened to see it weeks ago and been appreaciated so much. I have done my own website (in Thai languang) www.chinesemuslimthailand.com However, it takes time to find articles. Your job in summarizing all muslim wushu in wiki do help reduce my time a lot. Thanks again.

Do visit my website if you have time (even you can't read Thai).

I think you may include some of the following muslim wushu (grand)masters in your list i.e. li zunsi (li zensi), zhao changjun, zhang wenguang, chang tung-sheng


li zunsi (li zensi) : http://www.tai-chi.co.nz/GGMLiZunSi.html http://www.tai-chi.co.nz/xinyiliuhe.html

chang tung-sheng; great shuai-jiao grandmaster : million links. He is a devout muslim.

zhao changjun; wushu prince.[size=4] Links include: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/a...php?article=679 www.zhaocj-wushu.com http://www.1514.tradebig.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7Ij5NAOmKs

I believe that in this context, 'muslim' does not refer to followers of the religion of Islam. Rather, it is an identity commonly known as the 'Hui" which is more a ethnicity than a religious group.

Muslim Qigong Now Popular in Malaysia after Yoga and Senaman Melayu

hi wang 66, The article i created was on the muslim wikipedia www.muslimwikipedia.com I believe someone from the muslimwikipedia put it on the wikipedia. which is good as you got to here about it.

Currently I am working on the Sultanate in xinjiang and the yunnan uprising

http://muslimwikipedia.com/mw/index.php/Xinjiang_Sultanate

There is also some stuff on islam in thailand there
http://muslimwikipedia.com/mw/index.php/Islam_in_Thailand and it would be greatly appreciated if you could add to it.

As far as I know there are a few different Chinese Islamic martial art systems practiced by the Hui.

Around 3 months ago I toured all over numerous provinces in Henan researching Xin Yi Liu He Chuan. My journeys took me from Shanghai, Jiaxing, to Henan, etc, where I got to see all of the available branches (apart from Ma Sanyuan branch, which I have been told is so diluted it was not worth the time to see).

I am sure if I had more time, I would have met more practitioners, though I was on a very tight time schedule and the amount of stuff I accomplished was great.

I spent a lot of time in He Qi, West Zou Kou, where I stayed with practitioners from Yang Hong Shen, I also met students of Yan Xianlin, and Shang Xueli's grandson. I was even lucky enough to hold Shang Xueli's sword, the same sword he had presented to him after killing a Shaolin exponent several decades younger than him on the lei tai.

I spent some time at the local mosque where they worshipped 4 or 5? times a day and in between prayers, we would practice together. They were extremely nice to me considering, I am a non Chinese and a non muslim.

The 1st muslim, Hui, master was to my knowledge Ma Xueli, who has a fearsome reputation for killing a number of people in challenge matches, etc. Some lineage charts say that he leant from Ji Long Feng, but I have been told there are a number of masters before him.

As for Hui martial art systems, I am aware of only a few.

1. Xin Yi Liu He Chuan (Mai Zhuangtu style, also called Lushan), there are West Zou Kou, He Qi and also South Zou Kou (Mai Jingkuei), etc.

2. Luoyang Xin Yi Liu He Chuan (Ma Xing organised the routines, though not the creator).

3. Dengzhou Xin Yi Liu He Chuan (Ma Leishi is a practitioner in this line, I met him and his students recently, it is supposed to come from Li Zheng sometime?)

4. Shang Xian Xin Yi Liu He Chuan (also from Li Zheng)

5. Ma Sanyuan Xin Yi Liu He Chuan (extinct)

6. Cha Chuan (Hui long fist system)

7. Qi Shi (7 postures)

JB.

It seems like a lot of these are Martial Arts not limited to Hui, for example Chang Quan.

So how does one define what is Hui Martial Arts. What is the fundamental difference, for example in ideology? I think when Joshua Cobanov was talking about some of the ideologies behind Martial Arts is actually a little relevant. because most martial arts has some sorts of religious bases. And using understandings of the universe of their religion to determine how their body is to be one with the universe. And I'm interested if Hui Martial arts draws similar bases from the Muslim religion.

Martial arts in their original forms are generally taught within a small community. Hui martial arts just means that that community are composed primarily of ethnic Hui. But these are generally unreliable ways to identify them primarily because most of the 'Hui' systems are already very much 'Han' ones since there are more Han practicing them then Hui.

One of the most common mistakes people make about Hui are that they emphasize too much on the fact that they are muslim by religion and too little on the fact that they are Chinese. More importantly, Hui is an ethnicity not a religious identity. This in turn gives the werid idea that they are somehow less chinese in other aspects of their lives. That isn't how things are. When they are sick, they visit a Chinese or Western doctor just like everyone else. When they go to school, they study chinese literature, physics, chemistry and maths just like all the rest. Religious and philosophical difference are non-existant when it comes to martial arts. The only factor here are the tactical doctrine of that system which is unrelated to to either of the two.

Since be are on topic, I will use Xinyi Luhe as an example. There are nothing in the Koran than talks about the need for the nose, knee and toe to be alined to form the Waisanhe (Three external unison). In addition, Ji Longfeng did not use any of his muslim background when founding this system. He used the already-avaliable 6 harmony principle of spear fighting as well as the form of 10 animals to do so.

I repeat again, there are no such thing as 'daoist' and 'buddhist' martial arts. There are absolutely no difference within their tactical disposition that can be accounted by their religious aspect that could not be applied to the other. Hui martial arts is no different in this. A good example is to look at western fencing or wrestling. Are there any connection in terms of how they train and the doctrines of christianity ? Praying before a training session really doesn't cut it as achieveing 'oneness with creation' through practicing wrestling.

For those who argue the Yin-yang and Qi and 5 element theory as being a 'daoist' philosophy base for martial arts, I can tell you that those are not 'daoist philosophy'. Those are called scientific models. Their existance came either way before Daoism or independent of them, The Relgious Daoists merely borrowed them and developed them into a religious movement. This is the reason why these principles are adapted in all forms of Chiense martial arts. Including those practiced by the Hui.

The identification of 'Hui' martial arts is purely a social one. Not a religious, philosophical or tactical one