I said I would post these pictures separately so if someone is sensitive, they can avoid these. Many times after the Japanese army would come through a town, Americans would assist the Chinese in the aftermath.
Here are some pictures of a couple of those poor souls who had suffered at the hands of the Japanese.

I might want to note that there was an inscription on the back of one of these photographs. My Grandfather writes: He apologizes to the family for sending pictures with such content, but feels it important never to forget what happened. I don't believe he took these for shock value, but, he wanted the family to see the truth of how the Chinese were treated.

There are other photos that were executions, however. I believe he said that these men were convicts or thieves.

These pictures are graphic.

http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=c7vh1.jpg
http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=c8ba6.jpg

Dear God...thanks Pungyo. They were horrible, but historically significant. What's most important is in turn showing the Japanese today the capability of such butchery, because many I believe turn a blind eye. I went to Germany once, where a tour guide in the city of Koln was explaining the atrocities committed in the city against the Jews by the Nazis, and old bombed out churches from the 40s that were a stark reminder of the Second World War. The Japanese are often horrified and reminded by the past when observing the 1940s remains of Nagasaki and Hiroshima in their own homeland, but often aren't reminded of what happened in mainland Asia.

Eric

EXCUSEZ-MOI... may i interrupt you before you guys go too far on bashing much loved IJA.
These images Pungyo showed are not Japanese act, but chinese. Many torture methods were created by civilization of various dynasties. Chinese diligently worked out various degrees of torutes for centuries. They are proud of most of these tortures which have very poetic names too.
AFAIK these pictures were postcards from foreigners in China. It was photographed by european, probably french.. I just could not find link
-Man who is tortured (EXECUTED-by Yun) in agony is a Mongol who rebelled against his lord. He is doomed to be cut in thousand pieces. His facial expression and accpetance of his fate is much studied in some areas of west.

http://www.earlytech.com/common/show_item....l?Id=1212376513

Bull-sh**, show us your sources or I'll just dismiss this as another case of Sinophobic ranting. How you have the absolute nerve to claim that Kimchee's grandfather is lying about the origins of these images is beyond me. It's disgusting. But what's worse is your downplaying of this tragedy in your post with gay little "Chinese were worse" undertones. The "much loved" IJA?

BTW, this thread is about Japanese atrocities in China, if you want to start up a thread about Chinese methods of execution, do so.

Do you have evidence that he was supposed to be a Mongol? I think "acceptance of his faith" is supposed to mean "acceptance of his fate"?

While Zorigo's motivations for making his remarks, namely to bash the Chinese out of a sense of Mongolian nationalism, are reprehensible to me, let me also acknowledge that he has a point in that the disembowelling and slicing methods of execution (note: NOT torture) were used not only by the Japanese, but also by the Chinese for punishing serious crimes. I don't think we can be sure whether the people executed by the Japanese in these photos were charged with crimes, members of the resistance, or simply innocent victims, so I would hesitate to make judgments based on the photos alone.

I'm sure beyond the common thief, the Japanese occupiers saw Chinese resistance fighters as mere criminals, until of course partisan warfare became an issue.

Eric

Conan the Barbarian, .. i don't interest or care what is your imagination limit. If anything is beyond your limit why don't you quit. aren't you bit quick to defend something you don't know. Who says that grandpa is lying. Who says that grandpa is absolutely right?

Where did i downplay something. I just mentioned that you guys are going wrong direction which usual bashing japanese and playing a poor victim role. Truth is that these type of tortorious execution is very old and very much legalized in Ming and Qing dynasty. There are studies and the articles -statutes and sub-statutes— in the Ming and Qing codes providing for dismemberment penalty. lingchi sentence is nothing to do with IJA. I am not defending IJA atrocity which were different

Picture 555 is definitely one of those series of pictures/ postcards produced in 1905. It is not japanese work. It was diligent/ sadistic work of chinese executioners and their assistans performed in front of large audience. crowd were watching that cruel act as if this was entertainment. Foreigners were taking pictures.

Poor man was murderder who was mongol. His name in chinese Fu-zhu-li.

-------------------------------------

Please do not make rush judgements. . you don't know me, i dont' know you.


good Yun. I hoped someone would agree with me at least partially. if you acted ignorantly defensive lke other guys, i would lose all interest in CHF. But you are still very defensive in diplomatic way. Nature of torture and torutious execution is still the same, it is disgusting.


Your stand is right. It is not japanese way of execution. Mr Kimchee started thread with lie in the name his grandpa- China 1920's & 1930's, Photos taken by my Grandfather 2.
The pictures are produced not 1920-1930, but it was photographed during Qing Dynasty- 1900-1905. If his grandpa took the photos, he would know the date and stories related to pictures

Kimchee's a lass!

Zorigo do you have a photocopy (or image) of Fu-zhu-li's execution? I'd like to compare.

you can google... something with Fu-zhu-li case execution or Turandot............


I got
picture 555 is Mongol, others probably chinese or chinese christians.

http://turandot.ish-lyon.cnrs.fr/Event.php?ID=1

In Kimchee's link - mongol murderers face is very clear, shows distinctive mongol look

http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=c7vh1.jpg

GOOOGLE

Compare this one to Kimchee's grandfather's 555 Photo

Exact same picture.

Firstly, your post is borderline unintelligible. But I'll reply anyway. It is NOT your claim that this is a Chinese execution that angers me, it's your obvious racism, bias and love of the Imperial Japanese Army.

"much loved IJA."

"Chinese diligently worked out various degrees of torutes for centuries."

"They are proud of most of these tortures..."

^What's funny is that the Mongol hordes were far more barbaric and murderous than any Chinese dynasty has ever been, for the sake of our stomachs I won't discuss the atrocious acts they commited upon innocent people. Individuals who weren't even criminals.

Let me ask, why do you stay here when it's quite evident you have no interest in discussing Chinese history in a civilized manner? You just want to hijack threads to spread your anti-Chinese, Mongolian nationalist agenda. Like so many Korean and Mongolian members have previously done. Ironically we at CHF allow these types to stay while other forums ban them and mock them.
http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=543

I can vouch for Kimchee that she has no intention to lie. If the photos are indeed older postcards of Qing executions, we may have to consider the possibility that Kimchee's grandfather, who felt strongly about what the Japanese were doing in China, wanted to use the postcards to send a message to his family about what the Chinese were going through, even though that meant taking the images out of context.

Kimchee actually sent these photos to me before posting them here, because she wanted to know if the gory images would be acceptable. I suggested she post them with a warning, but also commented that the soldiers or policemen in the slicing execution photos did not look Japanese. She guessed that it might be because the Japanese had already left and the Chinese people were 'clearing up' the dead bodies.



Conan, isn't it possible that Zorigo was being sarcastic when he called the IJA "well-loved"?

But I do agree with your point that Mongolians really would be shooting themselves in the foot if they criticized the Chinese for having cruel forms of execution. The Mongol conquests are not known to have been very humane to civilians.

Sorry to say, mr Conan Barbarian. I think you understood completely wrong what i have said. Clearly you have weird definition of racism.

This "loved IJA" was kind of sarcastic, but seems like you did not understand. Please don't pick a word out of context.



You mentioned about mongol hordes. I don't deny or blame anyone/anything what the horde have done. Historical sources are there written by Mongol enemies, though it is biased in many way.

i think all sorts of things happened in XIII century.
But here we are writing about XX century Qing Dynasty China. Seems like you took it very personal as an insult.


I stay here because i want to understand chinese and get rid of any bias in me if there is any. But it does not mean i have to admire or ignore all those nasty stuff, historical distortions which exists in chinese history. If i did terribly bad thing exposing obvious lie and if it is against the CHF regulation, i can't wait to be banned.



Oh well, as i mentioned before, i don't deny facts and blame others. Mr Yun, you are mixing up 2 different questions-mass murder and torture. Even you tried to differentiate -torture and torturious execution
I don't think criticising obvious lie would be compared to shooting themselves in the foot if they criticized the Chinese for having cruel forms of execution. Very weird logic, is that chinese mentality or only yours!!!!

END. I am not going to post antything/anymore in this thread. feeling sick. I don't understand why you guys attacking me. Is that very offensive to you or biased/ nationalistic ( what else name it), to expose the obvious ill-intented lie?

Zorigo:

1. Do not accuse Kimchee of an "obvious ill-intented lie" unless you have proof that she was withholding information that she was aware of. As far as I can tell from what she said to me, she sincerely believed the photos depicted Japanese atrocities because her late grandfather had said so. And before you call her grandfather a liar too, please spare a thought for her sensitivities.

2. If your intention was only to point out that Kimchee's interpretation of the photo is incorrect, based on the evidence you have, I would applaud you for making a great contribution. However, your intention clearly went beyond that. Your tone and attitude show that you wanted to also make a polemical point about the Chinese being generally sadistic people:
"Chinese diligently worked out various degrees of torutes for centuries."

"They are proud of most of these tortures..."
(as Conan already quoted)

Now, you may accuse me of making "rush judgements" about you, but I have read all of your previous posts for months, and I can tell from them that you are a Mongolian nationalist with a big chip on your shoulder towards the Chinese people (at least those in the PRC). You have never missed an opportunity to put the Mongols in as good a light as possible, and to make the Chinese look bad. I don't deny you the right to do so (there are plenty of Chinese nationalists here who would readily do the opposite of what you are doing), but I do question your right to act like an innocent victim when certain members get offended by your obvious bias against the Chinese.

Lest you call me a Chinese nationalist too, let me make it clear here that I dislike all kinds of nationalists. Why? Because they are never content to just study history. They always want to use history to glorify themselves and slam someone else.



I would advise you to try harder, first of all by changing your attitude. I would not advise you to leave, because I think your aim is a worthy one.

Great posts, Yun. Objectivity, I believe, is one of your better virtues.

Eric

Is it the same man? Or is it just the same method of death? I'm sorry, I don't think they are the same person, but, I have difficulty scrutinizing the image because it is upsetting to me. I don't like to see cruelty to animals... never mind a human being!! I will believe you if you say they are the same person. I know we shouldn't use films as support for historical fact, however, Zhang Yimou's "Red Sorghum Wine" touched on this subject... at gun point, the Japanese soldiers made Chinese citizens flay another member of the town. So, I believed the family story given to me.

Remember, my grandfather was killed in 1943, and the story that was passed on to me was that the Japanese caused the death of the man in the picture... perhaps my other family members assumed this since he (my grandfather) was no longer around to explain. They definitely are not post cards, however, because they are the same film as his other photos... so it seemed truth to me. I did wonder about the numbers in the corners of the pictures, though. But, I stand corrected if I am wrong. I suppose it is possible that he purchased them... but, no need to become upset. I posted these photos to learn from them.

I did learn that the other photos were Chinese executions of thieves (the gun shot and beheading)... I'm not sure about the line of beheaded bodies on the street, though... do you know about that photo?

*edit: I held my breath and took another look... Yes, I see the same picture, you are correct Zorigo. But how the family legend came to be, I'll find out.

Kimchee

10% warning to Zorigo for being rude to another member and disregarding my earlier warnings. Don't make us put you on mod preview like we have for other nationalists who can't control their emotions.

I have deleted the offending posts - they are not fit for this forum. Responses of other members have had to be deleted too.

Thanks for warning. Don't you think there is something flattering and face saving thing going on here. I wonder why nobody say that Ms Kimchee made mistake or little mistake. Is it chinese way of back rubbing.

Maybe i should adapt these behaviour, - Kimchee you did good job , please put some more pixas

Please don't feel this way, Zorigo... I posted these pictures with the story that was told to me to learn from anyone in the forum... if the story was incorrect, tell me. Which you have. Believe me that I really do appreciate the information, and will pass along to my family what I've learned from you. It sounds to me like you are frustrated with things that may have happened here in the past... so whether you believe me or not, I meant no malice and wasn't trying to perpetuate a lie. As I said earlier, I stand corrected.

I believe the others jumped to my defense because they know me, as well as one can in a forum setting, and knew that I wasn't trying to be deceptive or antagonistic. That's not my way at all.

Did you read my last post? All the way through? I tried to offer reasons as to why I had the wrong story... I wasn't alive back then... all I know is what was told to me since childhood. On the back of the one of the pictures, my grandfather wrote "so we don't forget." Do you think it's possible that even HE was ill informed? Maybe someone told him the Japanese performed this execution. We'll never know for sure because he's been dead for 63 years. So please don't be angry and don't throw accusations at people that are only trying to find the truth... and there's no need to be sacrastic and tell me what a good job I did if the info was wrong.

My advice to you is to give the other person the benefit of the doubt, and don't go name calling and become angry as you have. Maybe some people try to be dishonest, but not me. Proving the information incorrect is all you had to do here, and I admire the fact that you were able to find the pictures you posted. It took a lot of investigational know how to do so.

Kimchee

This thread is not about Japanese atrocities in China. Kimchee's post of photo clearly shows the Qing official's public execution of prisoners.

It can be quite barbaric, but it's true in chinese history that every chinese dynasty had devised many ways of torturing or executing criminals. There is so-called "10 cruel torture" of Qing, which was rather notorious.

I think Conan was just repeating what I was told... however, thanks to my friend, Zorigo, he put us all on the right track. My family was very interested in learning the real story behind the pictures of Fu zhu li. Of course, all executions can be considered barbaric... even today.

Kimchee

Thank you for your investigation, Ralph... yes, several people corrected my inaccurate story... but that's why I posted the pictures... to find out about them. Evidently my family only assumed that the Japanese performed this execution... What a way to go, though, huh?

Kimchee

They are, like you said, very graphic and therefore very hard to look at. But I can tell you, being an active member of Amnisty International, that these types of tortures are still in use today. Either they be Chinese, Japanese or any other nationality they are still called butchers and I don't really care what anyone says about the subject.

There are atrocities going on even as we speak, maybe people don't take pictures any more for the simple reason that they don't want to be fdound out (maybe they are ashamed of doing this to other human beings), and I certainly hope so.

I find that in some countries, whether asian or any other nationality, people are just getting tired and disgusted with this type of treatment. But then on the other hand they thrive over it. Yesterday I was taking a walk on a busy street and out of nowhere came approx. 50 to 60 students looking for a guy that was supposed to get beat up. They did not find him and believe me the disappointment could be seen on their faces.

And I still say to all of you, have a great day
Pierre

Very interesting, indeed. I never thought about the technical aspect of shooting the photo. The actual size of the photographs in my possession are about 3 X 5". But, then, again, if they were mass produced, the original could have been different in size altogether.

I'm learning things every day about these photos. Thanks, Ralph, yet again.

Kimchee

Where are you from, Pierre? I can't recall. Gee, I certainly hope that group of students don't find their victim at all!

But you are quite correct that man's inhumanity to man is everywhere... from the front lines in Iraq, to the genecide in the Sudan... to what happened in my local area a couple of days ago... a man, whose fiancee broke things off with him, waited at her house until the woman's two daughters drove up in the drive way and proceded to shoot both of them to death. One was 21 and pregnant, the other was 15. Then he got into the house and shot himself. I ask, why did he have to kill the woman's two daughters?? Over a romantic break up??? It's so absolutely insane, I can't even grasp it!!

Kimchee