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KingMaradona
With regards to the Tang Dynasty , the ursuption of Empress of the Tang Throne ruling as the ZHOU dynasty between 690-705. Is the Zhou Dynasty seen as an interruption of the Tang Dynasty or a simple continuation of the Tang Dynasty. Would this mean the official period is 618-907 or 618-690 , 705-907 ?
Rong Qin Wang
QUOTE(KingMaradona @ Nov 14 2006, 11:43 PM) [snapback]4861216[/snapback]
With regards to the Tang Dynasty , the ursuption of Empress of the Tang Throne ruling as the ZHOU dynasty between 690-705. Is the Zhou Dynasty seen as an interruption of the Tang Dynasty or a simple continuation of the Tang Dynasty. Would this mean the official period is 618-907 or 618-690 , 705-907 ?


Zunjing de KingMaradona,

Hmm, you have asked a very interesting question. Well, here is my analysis.

Tang Gaozong died in late 683, and his seventh son, Crown Prince Li Xian, was enthroned as Tang Zhongzong in early January of 684. Unfortunately, Tang Zhongzong was deposed by his own mother just 54 days from ascending to the throne as he proved to be more easily controlled by his wife, Empress Wei. Wu Zetian then placed her youngest son on the throne as Tang Ruizong. Tang Ruizong was probably even weaker than his deposed brother; hence, he was merely a puppet Emperor. Despite having no power and control over the government, Tang Ruizong was still technically the supreme leader of the state. It was not until 690 when Tang Ruizong finally got the hint and abdicated in favor of his mother. He also changed his surname to "Wu" for a while. In 698, Wu Zetian finally realized that despite being the first female Emperor, she was still a woman, and the only way for her to receive respect from her offsprings after her death was to view herself as a woman of the Li family. With this mind, she reinstated Li Xian as the Crown Prince. In 705, when Wu Zetian was about 80 years old, the Crown Prince took this opportunity to stage a coup forcing his mother to abdicate in his favor. Well, he had such a weak character, so it was really his loyal ministers, who helped him won back the throne. Of course, the Crown Prince would revert back to the Tang Dynasty as he was actually a member of the Li Imperial Family. To show filial piety toward his mother, Tang Zhongzong honored her with the title Ze Tian Da Sheng Huang Di. It was from this long title that the name “Wu Zetian” came about.

Wu Zetian would later die in December of the same year she was deposed. Before passing away, she left instructions for her son to change her title to Ze Tian Da Sheng Huang Hou instead as she wanted others to think of her as just the Empress of the Tang Dynasty. Despite oppositions from court ministers, Tang Zhongzong still made a decision to give his mother a proper burial with his father in the same tomb.

Ancient Chinese believed in the afterlife; hence, it was crucial for offspring to pay respect and have many rituals to honor their ancestor. In the Imperial family, granting family members with posthumous names was a great way of showing respect or appreciation. With this mind, even though Wu Zetian officially proclaimed herself as the first female Emperor and founded the Zhou Dynasty, she declined receiving the title of Emperor at the very last minute of her life. Therefore, she was not given a temple name by Tang Zhongzong because only Emperors were allowed to have temple names. Since Wu Zetian turned down the title of Emperor in the afterlife, she can only be considered as a female of the Imperial family, thus, making the Zhou Dynasty just a continuation of the Tang Dynasty.

I know that this topic can get confusing at times, so I really hope that I have not done such a bad job at explaining this to you.

Xie Xie,
Lin Lang
QUOTE(KingMaradona @ Nov 14 2006, 11:43 PM) [snapback]4861216[/snapback]
With regards to the Tang Dynasty , the ursuption of Empress of the Tang Throne ruling as the ZHOU dynasty between 690-705. Is the Zhou Dynasty seen as an interruption of the Tang Dynasty or a simple continuation of the Tang Dynasty. Would this mean the official period is 618-907 or 618-690 , 705-907 ?


I guess there are two ways to answer this question: 1) Is it viewed as an interruption or as continuation by Chinese historians? 2)What might arguably qualify it as either an interruption or a continuation?

With regards to (2), I'd argue it as an interruption more than a continuance. This argument would point to the changes in government and society that Wu Zetian brought about (such as making Buddhism the official state religion and creating new bureaucracies and govt mechanisms to serve certain functions that she saw as necessary to her rule) and that reverted back to their old "Tang" form after she was removed from power. Of course, though, there are a lot of different issues to consider here, and I'm curious to know what issues others would focus on in this discussion.

As to (1), I really don't know. If somebody has some information on how Chinese scholars/historians have written about the issue, it would be great if they would share it here. One thought I do have, though, is that it can be discussed best by investigating the definition of "dynasty". Was the Zhou Dynasty a dynasty just in name, or did it also fit the criteria by which one would define an independent dynasty. The traditional Chinese criteria resolves around the Mandate of Heaven and a dynasty's rise and fall.

Perhaps a new to ask this question, then, is: Was the Zhou Dynasty really a dynasty? Ideas, anyone?
Rong Qin Wang
Zunjing de Lin Lang,

Well, the fact that history books listed the years for the Tang Dynasty as 618-907, proves that Wu Zetian’s Zhou Dynasty was deemed as illegitimate; thus, it was only a continuation, not an usurpation.

In my opinion, Wu Zetian’s Zhou Dynasty was no doubt an usurpation due to various reasons. First of all, Wu Zetian changed the dynastic name from Tang to Zhou, and the Imperial family last name would be “Wu” instead of “Li.” Also, as you have mentioned, there were many radical changes in the government as well as in the society. I think only hindsight can allow us to think of this as a continuation. When Wu Zetian ascended to the throne, she even thought about bypassing her sons and naming one of her nephews as the heir. This was to ensure that the Zhou Dynasty would survive after her death. Had it not been for Di Renjie, the throne would not have been so easily reverted by to the Tang Dynasty. There were serious doubts whether the Tang Dynasty would be revived or not despite having the popular support of civilians. With this type of uncertainty, I really cannot see how historians at that time did not regard to the Zhou Dynasty as an usurpation or maybe even a dynasty if the Tang Dynasty was not restored.

I have already stated my speculation in an earlier post for why the Zhou Dynasty was not regarded as a dynasty by Tang historians.

I personally think it is useless to investigate the definition of a dynasty since the term “dynasty” is a mere English translation. Of course, the Zhou Dynasty was not a true dynasty since the definition of dynasty is a series of rulers from the same family. Since Wu Zetian was the only Emperor of the Zhou Dynasty, there was no series of rulers from her family. There was no doubt that Wu Zetian had the Mandate of Heaven; however, it was certainly not with her family. I think it would be an error to translate the Zhou as a dynasty. In fact, it was probably due to a lack of proper word choice.

In my opinion, I don’t see how Wu Zetian’s Zhou Dynasty cannot be seen as an usurpation since she clearly changed the dynastic name. However, I would not call her new state as a dynasty either since there was no second generation ruler. I would refer to the Zhou Dynasty as “Da Zhou Di Guo.” I don’t believe “Di Guo” has to necessarily mean dynasty.

Xie Xie,
宝泉提举司
Historians does not accepted the Da Zhou Dynasty 大周 of Wu Zetian, they called it 'false Zhou' 伪周. I have failed to found the history of this Dynasty in the sources.
Rong Qin Wang
QUOTE(宝泉提举 @ Feb 5 2007, 04:06 AM) [snapback]4874631[/snapback]
Historians does not accepted the Da Zhou Dynasty 大周 of Wu Zetian, they called it 'false Zhou' 伪周. I have failed to found the history of this Dynasty in the sources.


Hmm, I know historians did not identify the Zhou Dynasty as a real dynasty because she was deemed as only an usurper as the Tang Dynasty lasted from 618-907 as one continuation. However, if you followed history more closely, you will see that the Mandate of Heaven was definitely with Wu Zetian as she managed to depose her sons, and proclaimed herself as Emperor. The Tang Dynasty probably did not look at this as a change in dynastic rule because Wu Zetian was related to Tang Gaozong by marriage, and was the mother of two Tang Emperors. Hence, it could be grudgingly argued that she was actually serving the Tang Dynasty as a caretaker to the throne.

However, I have never heard of historians referring to the Zhou Dynasty as “false Zhou.” Can you please further elaborate on it? Well, I normally see Wu Zetian included in the list of Tang Emperors as just another Emperor with parenthese around the name Zhou Dynasty. Is not this how most books listed the Tang Emperors?

Xie Xie,
宝泉提举司
QUOTE(Rong Qin Wang @ Feb 8 2007, 03:14 AM) [snapback]4875004[/snapback]
Hmm, I know historians did not identify the Zhou Dynasty as a real dynasty because she was deemed as only an usurper as the Tang Dynasty lasted from 618-907 as one continuation. However, if you followed history more closely, you will see that the Mandate of Heaven was definitely with Wu Zetian as she managed to depose her sons, and proclaimed herself as Emperor. The Tang Dynasty probably did not look at this as a change in dynastic rule because Wu Zetian was related to Tang Gaozong by marriage, and was the mother of two Tang Emperors. Hence, it could be grudgingly argued that she was actually serving the Tang Dynasty as a caretaker to the throne.

However, I have never heard of historians referring to the Zhou Dynasty as “false Zhou.” Can you please further elaborate on it? Well, I normally see Wu Zetian included in the list of Tang Emperors as just another Emperor with parenthese around the name Zhou Dynasty. Is not this how most books listed the Tang Emperors?

Xie Xie,


Well, her family name was Wu, not the Li, as those of the emperors of the Tang Dynasty. She only could rule as impress-dowager or regent. But she had proclaimed its own dynasty and she was only one empress in China`s history. It is worth to say, that she had changed the fish-tallies (鱼符, fish here represents Li`s family) which was used during the Tang Dynasty to tortoise-tallies (龟符, most likely, because her family name was Wu (武) => Xuan Wu 玄武 => 龟). She had also created own characters to demonstrate her power and changed many names which was used during the Tang Dynasty. After she had lost her power, all the changes she had done, was abolished (I can provide you with some quotations if you wish). She also does not have a Temple Name (Miao Hao), so sh obvoiusly was reverted to the rank "empress consort". Is it not the sign, that her Zhou Dynasty was "false" ?
Moreover, there is no history of the Da Zhou dynasty written, neither as the separate source nor in the composition of JueTangShu/XinTangShu.
As for the "False Zhou" - I think you can try to find it at google or yahoo. Thank you !
Rong Qin Wang
Wu Zetain was formally elevated to the position of Empress in 655 CE, and took over control of the court in 660 when Tang Gaozong suffered from a series of strokes, leaving him sort of unable to administer political affairs on his own. Well, he was generally a weak Emperor anyway; hence, it was not so surprising that his very strong and competent wife kind of ruled in his place. After Tang Gaozong died in 683, Wu Zetian continued to rule as regent for Tang Zhongong, her third son. After Tang Zhongzong proved too difficult to control, Wu Zetian had him deposed in favor of her fourth son, Tang Ruizong. During the six years on the throne, Tang Ruizong was only a puppet with the real ruler being Wu Zetian. Tang Ruizong finally took a hint from his mother to abdicate from the throne and to issue an edict requesting his mother to be the first and only female Emperor in 690. Facing no oppositions, Wu Zetian ascended to the throne, proclaimed the Zhou Dynasty, and changing the Imperial family’s surname to Wu. In order to gain more support, Wu Zetian named the deposed Tang Ruizong as her heir. To strengthen her reign, Wu Zetian instigated many new policies unique to her regime.

In 698, Wu Zetian realized that she could only be remembered as a female member of the Li family after her death as this would be the only way for her to not be a hungry ghost. Hence, she summoned her third son back to the capital (he had been exiled ever since being dethroned) and reinstated him as the Crown Prince in place of his younger brother, Tang Ruizong.

When Wu Zetian was in very poor health in 705 because she was a little over 80 years old; urged by his supporters, her third son staged a coup, forcing his mother to abdicate in his favor. Being so old and frail, she had no energy to even voice her opinion. Therefore, Tang Zhongzong was once again proclaimed Emperor in 705 and reverted back to the Tang Dynasty.

Well, this is just my brief summary of Wu Zetian’s life.

There was no doubt Wu Detain wished to rule independently from her husband’s family and the Tang’s political structure. It was true when she lost power, the Tang Dynasty was not only restored, but Wu Zetian was also not conferred with a temple name like most Emperors were. Hence, her title was definitely reduced to that of an Empress.

Even though she was not posthumously granted a temple name, there was no doubt the Mandate of Heaven was with her from 690-705. You can not consider Da Zhou as a dynasty since it failed to last for more than one generation; however, you cannot disregard the fact that Wu Zetian officially proclaimed herself as Emperor in 690. From 690-705, she was also the actual user of the jade imperial seal forged by Qin Shi Huang when he first united China in 221 BCE.

Xie Xie,
宝泉提举司
QUOTE(Rong Qin Wang @ Feb 12 2007, 02:55 PM) [snapback]4875647[/snapback]
Even though she was not posthumously granted a temple name, there was no doubt the Mandate of Heaven was with her from 690-705. You can not consider Da Zhou as a dynasty since it failed to last for more than one generation; however, you cannot disregard the fact that Wu Zetian officially proclaimed herself as Emperor in 690. From 690-705, she was also the actual user of the jade imperial seal forged by Qin Shi Huang when he first united China in 221 BCE.



Agree. BTW, where I can read about the imperial seals used in Tang and in Song Dynasty ?
Sorry for off-topic, but I need to know, if possible, the names of the seals and what exactly was written on the seals.
Thank you.
Rong Qin Wang
No problem, many members including myself would sometimes ask unrelated questions as well.

I have some knowledge on the Imperial Seal, but I am not sure if I have the answers you are looking for. However, I can redirect you to an earlier thread regarding the Imperial Seal, where some members had written a number of posts with some useful information. I am not sure if this is what you want to know; however, you can check the thread out yourself. Also, if you have some more questions, it would be more appropiate to post them in this thread. Alright, here is the link to the previous thread: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=578

Anyway, I sure hope you will get what you are searching for!

Xie Xie,
宝泉提举司
Thank you very much for this useful link !
nausicaa
Hi! Hope there's still someone in here. I'm writing my big essay on empress wu. but she too complex don't know where and how to start. Anyone who could give me some advice?

thanks!
Rong Qin Wang
QUOTE(nausicaa @ Feb 28 2007, 01:40 PM) [snapback]4878510[/snapback]
Hi! Hope there's still someone in here. I'm writing my big essay on empress wu. but she too complex don't know where and how to start. Anyone who could give me some advice?

thanks!


Zunjing de Nausicaa,

As you have mentioned, Empress Wu had such a long life and was a complex character as well. Hence, I don’t really know where to start either. However, I do suggest that it would always be wise to start from the beginning. Hence, maybe it would be best to begin with how she was summoned to the palace as Tang Taizong’s concubine and then move onto her life gradually with her family, traits, accomplishments, downfall, and finally death.

If you have any questions, I would like to redirect you to this link since there were a lot of good discussions regarding Empress Wu that you would more likely be able to find the answers. Also, if you have questions that were not yet answered in the thread, I think it would be more appropriate to post them in there. http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=469

Xie Xie,
Xiao Xian Nu
Hi

Here is additional information that I got from web.

***

Wu Zetian (simplified Chinese: 武则天; traditional Chinese: 武則天; pinyin: Wǔ Zétiān) (625 – December 16, 705), personal name Wu Zhao (武曌), was the only woman in the history of China to assume the title of Emperor. Ruling China first through puppet emperors from 665 to 690, not unprecedented in Chinese history, she then broke all precedents when she founded her own dynasty in 690, the Zhou (周) (interrupting the Tang Dynasty), and ruled personally under the name Emperor Shengshen (聖神皇帝) from 690 to 705. Her rise and reign has been criticized harshly by Confucian historians but has been viewed under a different light after the 1950s


[b]Birth[/b]
Wu's family was from Wenshui (文水), part of Bing prefecture (并州), now Wenshui county (文水縣) inside the prefecture-level city of Lüliang (呂梁市) and located 80 km (50 miles) southwest of Taiyuan, Shanxi province. Her father was Wu Shihuo (武士彠) (577-635), a member of a renowned Shanxi aristocratic family, and an ally of Li Yuan, the founder of the Tang Dynasty, in his conquest of power (Li was himself also from a renowned Shanxi aristocratic family). Her mother was Lady Yang (楊氏) (579-670), a member of the former Sui imperial family. Wu Zetian was born not in Wenshui, however, as her father was a high-ranking civil servant serving in various posts and locations along his life. The most serious claimant for her birth place is Li prefecture (利州), now the prefecture-level city of Guangyuan (廣元市), in the north of Sichuan province, some 800 km (500 miles) southwest of Wenshui, but other places have also been proposed, including the capital Chang'an.


Road to power
She entered Emperor Taizong's harem most probably in 638 (other possible date: 636), and was made a cairen (才人), i.e. one of the nine concubines of the fifth rank. Emperor Taizong gave her the name Mei (媚), meaning "delicate." Thus, today Chinese people refer to her as Wu Meiniang (武媚娘, i.e. "Miss Wu Mei") when they write about her youth, whereas they refer to her as Wu Zetian (武則天) or as Empress Wu (武后) when they write about her time in power.
In 649, Taizong died, and, as was customary for concubines, Wu Meiniang had to leave the imperial palace and enter a Buddhist nunnery where she had her hair shaved. Not long afterwards, most probably in 651, she was reintegrated into the imperial palace by Emperor Gaozong, son of Taizong, who had been enamoured by her beauty while visiting his father before his death. Gaozong's empress consort, from the Wang (王) family, played a key role in the reintegration of Wu Meiniang in the imperial palace. The emperor at the time was greatly attached to a concubine from the Xiao (蕭) family, and the empress hoped that the arrival of a new beautiful concubine would divert the emperor from the concubine née Xiao. Modern historians dispute this traditional history, and some think that the young Wu Zetian never actually left the imperial palace, and that she was probably already having an affair with the crown prince (who became Emperor Gaozong) while Emperor Taizong was still alive. Wherever the truth lies, it remains certain that by the early 650s Wu Zetian was a concubine of Emperor Gaozong, and she was titled zhaoyi (昭儀), i.e. the highest ranking of the nine concubines of the second rank. Wu Zetian soon had the concubine née Xiao out of the way. The fact that the emperor had taken one of the concubines of his father as his own concubine, and what's more a nun, if traditional history is to be believed, was found to be utterly shocking by Confucian moralists.
In the year 654, Wu Zetian's baby daughter died. Empress Wang was allegedly seen near the child's room by eyewitnesses. She was suspected of killing the girl out of jealousy and was persecuted. Legend has it that Wu Zetian actually killed her own daughter, but this allegation may have been made up by her opponents or by Confucian historians. Soon after that, she succeeded in having the emperor create for her the extraordinary title of chenfei (宸妃), which ranked her above the four concubines of the first rank and immediately below the empress consort. Then eventually, in November 655, the empress née Wang was demoted and Wu Zetian was made empress consort. Wu later had Wang and Xiao executed in a cruel manner -- their arms and legs were battered and broken, and then they were put in large wine urns and left to die after several days of agony.


Rule
After Emperor Gaozong started to suffer from strokes from November 660 on, she began to govern China from behind the scenes. She was even more in absolute control of power after she had Shangguan Yi (上官儀) executed and the demoted crown prince Li Zhong (李忠) forced to commit suicide in January 665, and henceforth she sat behind to the now silent emperor during court audiences (most probably, she sat behind a screen at the rear of the throne) and took decisions. She reigned in his name and then, after his death, in the name of subsequent puppet emperors (her son Emperor Zhongzong and then her younger son Emperor Ruizong), only assuming power herself in October 690, when she proclaimed the Zhou Dynasty, named after her father's nominal posthumous fief as well as in reference to the illustrious Zhou Dynasty of ancient Chinese history from which she claimed the Wu family was descended. In December 689, ten months before she officially ascended the throne, she had the government create the character Zhao (曌), an entirely new invention, created along with 11 other characters in order to show her absolute power, and she chose this new character as her given name, which became her taboo name when she ascended the throne ten months later. The character is made up of 2 pre-existing characters: "Ming" up top meaning "light" or "clearness"; and "kong" on the bottom meaning "sky". The idea behind this is the implication that she is like the light shining from the sky. Even the pronunciation of the new character is exactly the same as "shine" in Chinese. On ascending the throne, she proclaimed herself Emperor Shengshen, the first woman ever to use the title emperor (皇帝) which had been created 900 years before by the first emperor of China Qin Shi Huang. Indeed she was the only woman in the 2100 years of imperial China ever to ascend the Dragon Throne, and this again utterly shocked Confucian elites.
Traditional Chinese political theory (see the similar Salic law) did not allow a woman to ascend the throne, and Empress Wu was determined to quash the opposition and promote loyal officials within the bureaucracy. Her regime was characterized by Machiavellian cleverness and brutal despotism. During her reign, she formed her own Secret Police to deal with any opposition that might arise. She was also supported by her two lovers, the Zhang brothers (Zhang Yizhi, 張易之, and his younger brother Zhang Changzong 張昌宗). She gained popular support by advocating Buddhism but ruthlessly persecuted her opponents within the royal family and the nobility. In October 695, after several additions of characters, her imperial name was definitely set as Emperor Tiance Jinlun Shengshen (天冊金輪聖神皇帝), a name which did not undergo further changes until the end of her reign
On February 20, 705, now in her early 80s and ailing, Empress Wu was unable to thwart a coup, during which the Zhang brothers were executed. Her power ended that day, and she had to step down while Emperor Zhongzong was restored, allowing the Tang Dynasty to resume on March 3, 705. Empress Wu died nine months later, perhaps consoled by the fact that her nephew Wu Sansi (武三思), son of her half-brother and as ambitious and intriguing as she, had managed to become the real master behind the scenes, controlling the restored emperor through his empress consort with whom he was having an affair.


Evaluation
Although short-lived, the Zhou dynasty, according to some historians, resulted in better equality between the sexes during the succeeding Tang Dynasty.
Considering the events of her life, literary allusions to Empress Wu can carry several connotations: a woman who has inappropriately overstepped her bounds, the hypocrisy of preaching compassion while simultaneously engaging in a pattern of corrupt and vicious behavior, and ruling by pulling strings in the background. For many centuries, Wu was used by the Chinese establishment as an example of what can go wrong when a woman is placed in charge. Such sexist opposition to her was only lifted during the late 1960s, when Madame Mao (Jiang Qing) rehabilitated Wu as part of a propaganda campaign to suggest herself as a successor to her ailing husband. In his biography Wu, British author Jonathan Clements has pointed out that these wildly differing uses of a historical figure have often led to schizophrenic and often hysterical characterisations. Many alleged "poisonings" and other incidents, such as the premature death of Wu's daughter, may have rational explanations, but have been twisted by later opponents. Clements notes the changing status of Wu in Chinese historiography -- modern TV drama and movies about her (of which there are many) usually present her as a Cinderella-figure for the entertainment of a female audience, and not the bugbear of old.
The noted French author Shan Sa, born in Beijing, wrote a biographical novel called "Impératrice" (French for Empress) based on Empress Wu's life. It has been translated into English as "Empress" and Japanese as Jotei: Waga na wa Sokuten Bukō (女帝: わが名は則天武后) (trans. "Female emperor: My name is Empress Wu Zetian").

IMHO, though some historians do not acclaim Empress Wu's ZHOU Dynasty as a dynasty, in fact, it did exist, despite of its short life. In my personal opinion, there are 2 criteria that historians do not acclaim the existance of latter Zhou Dynasty (there was another Zhou Dynasty in the early days of China History). The first one is about the legitimacy of the ruler. Some believe Empress Wu seized the chance of the vacuum of power left by her bed-sick husband, to enthrone herself and declare a new dynasty.

[b]The second one[/b] is the span of the rule. Despite of many great achievements created during Zhou Dynasty, it is somehow considered too short for a life of a dynasty in China (indeed, it was the shortest-ever-ruling dynasty in China).

Please forgive me for any incorrect thoughts. If any mistakes, please correct me.
fireball
Hi,

I have some thoughts about whether Wu Zetian's Zhou was considered as an interruption of the Tang dynasty.

I believe we should compare Wu Zetian's Zhou in Tang dynasty with Wan Mang's Xin in Han dynasty. Both Wu and Wang disposed their young emperor and declared themselves as the new emperors. Both made a lot of changes in the laws and official administrators' titles and functions. Why was Xin considered an interruption of Han dynasty -- West Han and East Han? Why was Wu Zhou not officially considered an interruption of Tang dynasty -- I don't remember Tang was seperated out officially in two chunks in the history books I have read. Why was that?

I think the primary reason was due to the fact that Wu Zetian was the mother, grandmother, and ancestress of the new Tang emperors. They tried to cover up the embarrassment, and the history writers of the day obliged them. The history writers from other dynasties also felt the fact a woman became an emperor was an embarrassment, so they continued that cover up and refused to consider Wu as a true emperor and her dynasty as a true dynasty. At least, this was what I have read from the theories of some modern Chinese history scholars and between the lines of many imperial scholars whenever they mentioned Wu Zetian.
liuxing
Did the fact that Empress Wu requested on her deathbed to be known as Empress instead of Emperor contribute to her reign being considered as just part of Tang Dynasty?
fireball
QUOTE(liuxing @ Nov 1 2007, 08:45 PM) *
Did the fact that Empress Wu requested on her deathbed to be known as Empress instead of Emperor contribute to her reign being considered as just part of Tang Dynasty?


I don't know, but I don't think so. The historians later on wouldn't necessarily use that as the criteria. You have to remember that many ancient Chinese scholars, especially the official Chinese historians, were very strict in their Confucian point of view. They were very into the "proper name" or "proper title". I think they considered Wu Zetian as the Empress of Tang no matter whether she requested it on her deathbed or not. Furthermore, I believe even if Wu decided to keep calling herself the emperor on her deathbed, these Confucian historians would probably still consider her as the Empress anyway. This is to follow the Confucius' foot steps in writing Spring and Autumn -- Although many kings from the vassel states of Zhou started calling themselves kings, Confucius still wrote about them with their proper titles. It was their "principle" as the "proper scholars".
Rong Qin Wang
QUOTE (fireball @ Nov 1 2007, 08:51 AM) *
Hi,

I have some thoughts about whether Wu Zetian's Zhou was considered as an interruption of the Tang dynasty.

I believe we should compare Wu Zetian's Zhou in Tang dynasty with Wan Mang's Xin in Han dynasty. Both Wu and Wang disposed their young emperor and declared themselves as the new emperors. Both made a lot of changes in the laws and official administrators' titles and functions. Why was Xin considered an interruption of Han dynasty -- West Han and East Han? Why was Wu Zhou not officially considered an interruption of Tang dynasty -- I don't remember Tang was seperated out officially in two chunks in the history books I have read. Why was that?

I think the primary reason was due to the fact that Wu Zetian was the mother, grandmother, and ancestress of the new Tang emperors. They tried to cover up the embarrassment, and the history writers of the day obliged them. The history writers from other dynasties also felt the fact a woman became an emperor was an embarrassment, so they continued that cover up and refused to consider Wu as a true emperor and her dynasty as a true dynasty. At least, this was what I have read from the theories of some modern Chinese history scholars and between the lines of many imperial scholars whenever they mentioned Wu Zetian.


Zunjing de Fireball,

Yes, it is undisputable that history books listed the Tang Dynasty as one continuation from 618-907 with Wu Zetian as just another “Tang Emperor.” However, many modern historians pointed out some fallacies to this particular arrangement, of which you have already mentioned.

My most favorite and respected aunt is a historian on Chinese/Vietnamese history and she told me that Tang historians refused to recognize Wu Zetian as an Emperor because she was the wife of Tang Gaozong and mother of Tang Zhongzong and Tang Ruizong; therefore, she was being viewed as a caretaker to the throne. Also, it was argued that the Li family never lost their legitimacy since the position of Crown Prince was always held by one of the Li imperial princes.

Yes, I know that everything my aunt says might not always be true; however, since she herself is a historian, her statements should not be totally ignored either.

Nevertheless, I don’t really find this argument very convincing. Even though Wu Zetian had her role in the Li family, there was no assurance that she would definitely pass the throne to her sons as she was considering making one of her nephews the Crown Prince on numerous occasions. Based on this fact alone, how could anyone be certain the restoration of Tang Dynasty was inevitable? Of course, we, as scholars from the much later generations, have the benefit of hindsight!

Off-topic: I greatly respect my aunt because she is such an impressive lady! It really amazes me how a woman of her generation can turn out to be such a great historian. On top of her wide knowledge, she also has her unique views and analyses of thesis, documents, ideas and judgments. She also has a very rare balance between reading history books and watching historical dramas. She never lets her favorite historical dramas cloud her judgments of real historical events, nor does she let historical facts be the obstacles of enjoying great historical fictions.

Anyway, I am really sorry for getting off topic; however, I just felt like expressing my admirations towards my wonderful aunt.

Xie Xie,
Minh Giao shang
Rong Qin Wang
QUOTE (fireball @ Nov 2 2007, 06:41 AM) *
I don't know, but I don't think so. The historians later on wouldn't necessarily use that as the criteria. You have to remember that many ancient Chinese scholars, especially the official Chinese historians, were very strict in their Confucian point of view. They were very into the "proper name" or "proper title". I think they considered Wu Zetian as the Empress of Tang no matter whether she requested it on her deathbed or not. Furthermore, I believe even if Wu decided to keep calling herself the emperor on her deathbed, these Confucian historians would probably still consider her as the Empress anyway. This is to follow the Confucius' foot steps in writing Spring and Autumn -- Although many kings from the vassel states of Zhou started calling themselves kings, Confucius still wrote about them with their proper titles. It was their "principle" as the "proper scholars".


Zunjing de Fireball,

After contemplating over this subject, I have just realized that you are absolutely right! All of the “legitimate reasons” for not recognizing Wu Zetian as an Emperor were mere excuses of unwilling to admit a woman actually did become Emperor in a male dominated society! When Wu Zetian passed the throne to her son instead of her nephews, she had submitted to fate and hoped that her descendants could somewhat protect her name in the history books. She knew all along that later Confucian scholars/historians would never give her credit for building the Zhou Empire. When she died, so did her glory, but not her legacy.
fireball
QUOTE (Rong Qin Wang @ Nov 27 2007, 02:23 AM) *
Off-topic: I greatly respect my aunt because she is such an impressive lady! It really amazes me how a woman of her generation can turn out to be such a great historian. On top of her wide knowledge, she also has her unique views and analyses of thesis, documents, ideas and judgments. She also has a very rare balance between reading history books and watching historical dramas. She never lets her favorite historical dramas cloud her judgments of real historical events, nor does she let historical facts be the obstacles of enjoying great historical fictions.

Anyway, I am really sorry for getting off topic; however, I just felt like expressing my admirations towards my wonderful aunt.


Zunjing de Rong Qin Wang,

Your aunt seems to be a great historian. A great historian should never be driven by his/her own emotions and should always base his/her analysis on actual evidences. Personally, I think you are following your aunt's footstep admiringly. smile.gif
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