Did the Chinese ever build castles in great numbers to give them strategic command over local area, like in Europe? Do any of these still exist, and does anyone have pictures of them? What are some of the strongest and most famous forts in China, and does anyone have pictures? The only fort I know of and seen pictures of is Jiayuguan. Looks pretty solid and intimidating.

As a side question, does anyone know the difference between a castle and a fortress? What separates the two?

They had castles and forts but not in the European sense. Unlike Europe with the multitudes of small states and nations, China was unified for most of it's history and except for the early periods during the Spring & Autumn, Warring States, 3k periods, really didn't have a need to dot the landscape with fortifications. Most of the existing forts you can still see in China are in the traditional border regions where the country grates against another state/country, eg. along the great wall, in the far western outposts, along the coast, strategic passes etc.

The mainstay of chinese military defense within China itself was the fortified village of which very few examples now still exist. They were used more as defense against brigands like the 108 heroes of the Water Margin. Only during times of chaos like the 3k period, mongol invasions etc. were these fortified villages upgraded to withstand full military assaults. But coming out of a long period of unity under the Qing dynasty, most of these fortifications were demolished or allowed to fall into disrepair. Mainly coast forts, greatwall forts and remote outposts remain to be seen today.

China had the catapult by around the 4th century B.C. and were in continuous use right through to the Song and Yuan period when they were surplanted by cannon. The very existence of such siege weapons would indicate the existence of forts and "castles" in China. The advent of gunpowder weapons probably contributed to the decline of fixed fortifications.

Chinese castles were not unlike castles you see in Japan today. They were mainly wooden structures sited on stone foundations. The wooden structures are mostly gone now from disrepair, war, vandalism, "progress" etc. but the many stone foundations still remain to be seen. Numerous ruins of city walls can also still be see today in China. Most have been hacked down to give way to the expansion of modern cities but enough exist like in Nanjing, Xian etc so show how they looked like. :-)

Jieming

Hmmm... I guess you're right, but if you add up the years of the Spring and Autumn period, the Warring States, the Three Kingdoms, and the Age of Fragmentation, that comes up to a pretty big chunk of time of China being split into numerous small, competing kingdoms. It's a shame not more of these structures have survived.

Speaking of Jiayuguan, does anyone know if it was ever attacked? How well did the fortress fare?

The Chinese had a different concept of fortification. Unlike medieval European noblemen, who built their homes up into castles, the Chinese local centre of power was the provincial capital city, which would itself be walled and defended. Since every major Chinese city was walled to protect its governor, the surrounding populace would seek refuge in that city in the event of war, while a rebel army would also have to besiege and take it in order to capture control of the province.

The Japanese daimyo during the Sengoku period were more similar to the European aristocrats, building their headquarters into large castles and also having other minor castles at strategic points. The Koreans, besides their walled cities based on the Chinese model, also had a unique model of Sansong (mountain fortresses), which utilised their rugged terrain to have chains of low fortifications snaking along ridges and mountain ranges, like miniature Great Walls.

A fortress is generally on a larger scale than a castle, while a fort or stockade is on a smaller scale. The Chinese did build many local forts (wubi 坞壁) for self-defence during the chaotic first half of the Age of Fragmentation, when pillaging 'barbarian' cavalry ranged across the northern countryside and village militias had to fight them behind the safety of improvised fortifications. Many of these forts would have been of wood and bamboo rather than the stone and rammed earth of larger walled cities.

The Northern Wei also set up the Six Garrisons (Liu Zhen 六镇) along their northern border to guard against the raiding Rouran, but it is not known how well-fortified they were, since they were originally meant more as forward bases for counteroffensive strikes rather than as static strongpoints for withstanding sieges. The northern nomads avoided siege warfare and were highly mobile, so it was usually more effective to use walls against them rather than isolated forts that they could bypass easily. The Northern Wei, Northern Qi and Sui all rebuilt parts of the Han Great Wall or constructed new walls to defend against the Rouran and later the Turkut. The medieval Europeans were never able to build such lines of walls after the fall of the Western Roman Empire, because of the lack of a central authority to initiate and finance the construction. But the Romans themselves had been avid wall-builders, as seen from the example of Hadrian's Wall in Britain, and the walls of Constantinople in the Byzantine Empire were built up over the centuries to be extremely formidable.

So the building of castles (as in Western Europe and Japan) is not so much an indication of an advanced military as of the fragmentation of local political authority. Whenever the central government became stronger, castles would be torn down because they represented a potential challenge to central control. No such problem existed for the walled cities of imperial China, because they were an essential apparatus of government control over local populations.

Ya I've seen pictures of those and they look really cool! They depended more on the terrain than the walls themselves for defence.

Picture of a Wei fort/watchtower along the Wei Wall



Jieming

Thanks for that pic, Liang Jieming! It looks really interesting.

One more thing I should point out is that large Chinese cities sometimes had a citadel - a much smaller but more strongly-fortified place either at one corner of the city, or just outside it. This had a similar function to the keep or donjon of an European castle - the garrison could retreat into it if the rest of the city became indefensible or the outer walls were breached. In the case of the Western Jin capital city Luoyang, its citadel was Jinyong Cheng 金墉城, the Iron-Walled Citadel, at the northwestern corner of the city. It was the last line of defence for the capital, and also the place where important prisoners were held. For the capital of the Wu, Eastern Jin and Southern Dynasties, Jiankang (present-day Nanjing), the Shitou Cheng 石头城 or Stone Citadel served a slightly different purpose. It lay just west of the capital city, on the bank of the Yangzi River to guard the point where an invading fleet sailing down the Yangzi would have to land its troops to make a direct assault on Jiankang.

Ruins of the Nanjing Stone Citadel:

I remember reading an article that many Japanese castles today were actually built AFTER WWII, that's why they look so "shiny and new".

Regarding Jiayuguan, one can't really feel its greatness until one's been there. I've always thought Jiayuguan was awesome and then I visited it myself, standing on one of the outter walls looking out toward the Great Wall, it's an amazing feeling.




(Hat hair)

The more spectacular castles (such as Kumamoto, Hikone and Himeiji are the 16th/17th Century originals. More recently, traditional methods have been employed in the reconstructions but examples like Osaka, Fushimi Momoyama and Hirosima were rebuilt using ferro-concrete in the 1960s. From afar they look impressive but often disappointing close up (in terms of lack of 'actualty' and the actual image produced. Back at my parents house in the UK, they live within sight of the ruined Dunstanburgh castle, and I thank whatever gods there are that most countries never decided to rebuild castles the way the Japanese municipalities did, but I guess most countries don't have the same hyper-obsession with concrete.

No, they never built as many as Europe. This is because in Europe, castle A belonged to team A, castle B belonged to team B, castle C to... and so on and so on.
China was more unified, or consisted of larger states on average, with less feuding, so castles would not have been against each other, but usually to guard against barbarians.

They had alot more watch towers though. Many many watch towers around frontier land acted as an alert system, and as small fortefications and bases for soldiers.

Hey, great picture! But when was this wall built/rebuilt? It has musket/gun ports!

Jieming

I have a fascination with old forts especially those in remote areas. One day I'm gonna go trek the silkroad to see these old outposts and parts of the crumbling Qin wall. Can just "feel" the history in these things!

I haven't found pictures yet but I understand Han dynasty fortifications can still be seen out in the deserts in the extreme west.

Jieming

Those could be crossbow ports.
I've also heard that there were extra-heavy-heavy crossbows mounted on the wall, like a ballista-turret.

Yup, that's what our tour guide told us. Jiayuguan was built during the Han dynasty, way before gunpowder weapons were even invented.

Han dynasty? Maybe the original was built during the Han but it must have been upgraded countless times after that. I may be wrong, but the current walls and towers are probably at the latest, Ming dynasty design.

The Ming great wall has gun ports compared to the lack of gun ports of the Qin wall or even on some of the earlier Ming walls. You could be right about crossbows though. Here's a picture of a comparison between the Ming wall with gun ports and without.



Jieming

The tour guide didn't tell us when, and if, Jiayuguan was rebuilt. He only told us when it was originally built and the story behind the extra brick

I don't think the story of when, and if, Jiayuguan was rebuilt would be nearly as interesting.

Besides, you have to realize that in the desert-like environment where Jiayuguan is, it shouldn't be surprising that the fort stood against the test of time.

Hmmm... definitely a "must visit" place for me. How do you get there? Are there direct tours?

BTW, what's the story behind the extra brick? You can't leave a teaser like that and get away with it!

Jieming

Jiayuguan was just one of the many places we visited on the "Silk Road Tour". We started in Beijing and went to Urumqi, Turpan, Dunhuang, Jiayuguan, Lanzhou, then finally Shanghai. I believe the extended Silk Road Tour also go to Qinghai and Xi'an.

Regarding the extra brick, when the original architect who designed Jiayuguan asked the emperor for resources, he was very specific on everything, including numbers of bricks. I believe the number of total bricks came out to be something like 5,000,001 (I don't remember the exact number but it was an even number + 1). The emperor was amazed and puzzled by the specific number and asked the architect why the extra brick. The architect told the emperor that it's for "just in case". When Jiayuguan was built, there was indeed an extra brick and so the architect decided to put it on top of one of the main gates on the outter walls.

Of course, the tour guide told the story better as I left out a lot of details But this was just a legend, but there is an extra brick sitting on top of the main gate on the outter wall though.

Ah interesting story. Wonder how much truth there is in the legend since there is an extra brick on the wall.

Ok, note to myself. Visit Jiayuguan.

Any other forts to visit along this silk route tour you took?

Jieming

Well, forts no. But we did go visit Yumen, or what's left of it.

BTW, inside Jiayuguan, you get to use crossbows and traditional bows and shoot at targets of "incoming enemies", it's quite fun

Here is a picture of my brother.

Arrrrrrh! Now you're making me want to go like right now! Crossbows are illegal here and I'm been dying to try one!

*deep breath* *deep breath*

That's it! I'm going to sleep before you tempt me even more.

Jieming

BTW, standing on the highest level of the administrative tower in the middle of Jiayuguan looking out the window toward the whole fort, only then do you realize just how amazing Jiayuguan really is.

I'll leave you with a picture

well, nuts...
I must see that one day.

Hey, the big empty space in the middle, were there buildings there before? Tents? Would it have been used for drilling/keeping horses, what?

Yes, all that and also to trap the enemies if they broke into the first wall.

The photo certainly gives an impressive overview of the fort. Just one question though, what was the principal purpose of the towers (lookouts? firing-decks? administrative offices? quarters?)?

I know at least one of them is for administrative offices as our tour guide has mentioned. But I'm not sure about the other ones. I assume the other ones are for various other purposes.

Another ineteresting note about Jiayuguan, all of the stairs going up and down the walls all have a slope next to it for horses to go up and down.

For evacuating the horses to higher 'ground' should the outer walls and/or gates be breached?

I assume so, since each staircase going up to the wall also have a gate at the bottom. Needless to say, the whole structural design was VERY well-thought out.

It would appear well thought out in the details applied.

From that, does anyone know of the construction of China of fortifications equivalent to the 'trace Italienne'. This design of fortification relied upon lower walls, built solidly on a foundation of earth to absorb artillery fire, connecting a series of bastions that allowed the creation of interlocking fields-of-fire.
In Europe, and Japan, after the introduction of larger contingents in gunpowder-equipped troops in the 15th and 16th Centuries, such fortifications were constructed (rather than the previous designs based upon high walls to prevent scaling).
In China, did such an evolution occur alongside the development of firearms?

Yes. The portions of the Ming Great wall show the same channelling of enemy troops to kill zones where interlocking fields of fire could rain down on the attackers. But then I'm no expert on castles. Better to ask the others here.

Jieming

The 'fortifications revolution' that accompanied the rise of gunpowder weapons in Europe did not change the way that Chinese walled cities and defensive walls were constructed, for a good reason.

European castles had relatively thin but high walls of stone blocks, and cannons (unlike catapults) could now strike right at the base of the wall, loosening if not smashing the stones and causing the whole wall to collapse. So the European Vauban-style fortification of the 17th century onwards changed to employ low bastions that could pour returning fire onto attacking artillery, while (in caocao74's words) "built solidly on a solid foundation of earth to absorb artillery fire".

The Chinese wall, on the other hand, had always been "built solidly on a solid foundation of earth to absorb artillery fire", because it used the labor-intensive but very effective method of rammed earth or foot-pounded earth. Beneath the outer layer of stone blocks was a man-made cliff of soil produced by hundreds of stamping feet. The walls might be high, but when a cannonball hit at their base, it simply lodged in the earth rather than causing significant damage.

The Japanese were very slow to use siege artillery, even after the Europeans brought cannons in and began selling them to the warlords. It was only around the end of the Sengoku period (c. 1600) that their castles, which were originally flimsy composites of wood and stone, were modified to have a solid stone base to withstand artillery while still having an imposing wood-stone facade to overawe the enemy.

So the 'evolution' that took place in European and Japanese fortifications simply wasn't necessary in China, because Chinese walls were quite immune to artillery bombardment! Sieges in Chinese military history were long, drawn-out affairs that caused huge casualty rates among the attackers, because scaling the walls was often still the only effective means of capturing a city. Even in the case of Xiangyang, which finally fell to the Mongols in 1272 because of the use of the counterweight trebuchet, the decisive factor in forcing the garrison's surrender was not the damage to the walls but rather the terrifying damage done to the buildings within the city by the larger projectiles that the counterweight trebuchet could launch. That suggests the one weakness that Chinese walled cities had compared to European and Japanese castles - they usually had a large populations and many civilian residences that were very vulnerable to bombardment. Siege engines that sent firepower over the walls, rather than against the walls, could have a more devastating effect.

Even during WW2, those old Chinese fortifications stood well against artillery fire. In a documentary I saw, when Japanese opened a breach on the wall of Nanjing after intensive artillery bombardment, we can see that that breach was not a breach at all, maybe a breach comprared to the rest of the wall, but the breach itself was a slopy hill. The Japanese soldiers were climbing it with great difficultiy, if the defenders put there a machine gun and some infantry to support it, it still could be easily defended.

that is correct, and the following chinese civil war was the same too, the 3 major showdown battles were all fought in cities with ancient walls, and the communist with all their cannon still had to take quiet a while to breach and take it even with overwhelming numbers.

Overall, the other difference was the size of armies, while European castles were very impressive looking, it could only hold a few hundred men and in some more extreme cases maybe 1-2 thousand, such numbers were too feeble for the size of armies that roam in China where 10thousand was the usual base number. no matter how solid it is, a few hundred men holding out against tens of thousand is still a very despairing fight. the castle's rise as yun already suggested, acturally reflects the fragmentation of political powers (and thus the dimishing size of armies) than any advanced military technology. hence you should also see why in Roman times they did not build such fortifications. because it just didn't fit the scale of war they were raging.

Hmm...
Correct me if I am wrong.
Chinese passes would likely not be haphazardly placed on the plain...but be placed at Chokes, where they would be impossible to bypass. Passes, right?
Are there any specifically military places (full out posts, rather than walled cities with a high civilian population) that existed other than passes?
And, why are there passes that are not on the borders, but rather within the radius of Chinese power, i.e. Yang Guan, Jianmen Guan, Hulao Guan, etc?

Here's an undated picture I have no idea where it's from but shows city walls during the 2nd WW.

Anyone have info on this picture?



Jieming

Yes, specially on places were Chinese population was low. During Han dynasty, there were fortress in the far west regions. Jia Yu Guang and Shan Ha Guan were all fortress.


I'm not sure, but Chinese borders varied with time, so some passes would be on the borders but if the empire expand, then they would be inside the bordrs. And during times of civil war or political and/or social instability, some chock points were held to ensure the safety of the capital and/or important regions.

A drawing of Shan Hai Guan

An excellent drawing. Thank you.

Are you sure it is from the Second Sino-Japanese War/ Second World War? Looking at the rough outlines of uniforms and the type of artllery deployed, it looks more likely that the photograph was taken during either the 1894-95 War or the international effort to relieve the Legations in Beijing during the Boxer Rebellion.

Just a question about Shanghaiguan.Was it located near Shanghai?Hence the name?

It's SHANhaiguan as in 山海关. It's located in Hebei province, north of Beijing I believe.

I see,i always thought it was located near Shanghai,haahah

It is easily confused if you don't read the Pinyin carefully Another reason to not abolish Hanzi

Ah, no you may be right. I really don't know when this picture was taken, though I'm not sure how you can tell how the uniforms look. I can't make out anything!

Any clue on the city though?

Jieming

Primarily, the headwear seems to be turn-of-the-century style, while the chap in the bottom left corner seems to be wearing a kepi. The main indicator of time are the artillery pieces though, indicative of the pieces in service in European armies in the mid-18th to late-19th Century, then filtered in overseas militaries, but were largely antiquated by 1914.
On the city portrayed, your guess is as good as mine unfortunately.

I found this picture from browsing another forum: http://chinese-forums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8 .

Where is this located at, what is it called and how old is it? Could this be considered a castle?

Did the person who posted it say that it was in China?

I believe so, yeah. Here's the thread discussing the topic: http://chinese-forums.com/showthread.php?t=4747 .

Another person on the thread mentioned that there were castles in Hubei?

Having looked through those pictures, I believe that at least the first three are of forts along the Ming Great Wall complex.

I think the black and white picture resembles a wall from the forbidden city..

Does anyone have any pictures of Xiangyang?

Cheers

I've heard that their are castles in Shanxi and Guizhou.