I haven’t seen any real historical evidence which supports the claim that Yue Fei created Eagle Claw or the more specific yī bǎi ling bā qín ná (一百零八擒拿 – “108 China Na”) techniques. As far as I know, it is not mentioned in his historical biography compiled in 1345 during the Yuan Dynasty (although this is not a definitive source on his life as it was written 200 years after his death and because it over exaggerates his military accomplishments). Nor is it mentioned in his fictional biography first written sometime between the years 1661-1735. This version was written from folktales that where popular among the common people for centuries. If Eagle claw was the stuff during the Song, why wouldn’t it be mentioned in writing centuries later during the early Qing dynasty?

It seems the legend of eagle claw runs almost parallel with that of Xingyi. Both were supposedly created by Yue Fei, disappeared for a time and then reemerged to become popular styles in the Ming and Qing dynasties. (Of course a lot of people will tell you that it was Ji Longfeng or another Muslim master who created Xingyi but that is another thread.) I think there is a very strong chance that it was created centuries after Yue Fei’s death, but attributed to him to give the style some historical weight. (The same could be said with Yue Fei’s association with Fanzi boxing.) I have heard the story of how Monk Lai Chin later combined the 108 locks with Fanzi to create northern eagle claw. I’m sure joint-locking of any kind existed LONG before eagle claw and Yue Fei, so it could be possible, if he really existed, monk Lai Chin just combined a historic joint-locking set with fanzi to create said style. Show me some sort of Song Dynasty record or any kind of record prior to the Ming mentioning Yue Fei and the 108 locks in the same context. If you can, I would really like to have a look at it!

It seems he was constantly on the move during his tenure in the military, either fighting the Liao or the Jin empires. When would he have had the time to create the style? A lot of people think his archery teacher Zhou Tong passed along some "hand techniques" called “Elephant” from Shaolin which Yue Fei synthesized into the 108 locks, but there is no historical material that can prove Zhou Tong was even a Shaolin monk. Yue Fei’s historical biography does not mention Zhou Tong teaching him any kind of boxing styles, just archery! Also, please don’t quote from books by eagle claw master Leung Shum. His books, I think, have perpetuated the idea that Zhou Tong was a Shaolin monk and that Yue Fei created eagle claw. I only want historical evidence. (Don’t be mistaken. I am not dissing master Leung, just the history presented in his books.)

Comments are welcome from people well versed in Chinese martial arts and history, preferably a mix of the two. I’m not trying to be a pain, I’m just interested in finding the “true” history of this wonderful style and not perpetuating blind faith in martial legends.

I posted the exact same thread on the Kung Fu magazine forum and I've received nothing but silly comments and lots of "Of couse Yue Fei created eagle claw because that's what the 'offical' history says" sort of stuff.

ghostexorcist

holiday's are over so thought I'd check out the site, its been a while. Now I see where you get 90% of your research info.

as I said on the other thread http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44316

Ying Zhao (eagle claw) system gives the positon of Ancestor to Yue Fei due to a Liquan of the Ming Dynasty having had the opportunity to learn some martial arts skills/technqiues that were told to him to have been handed down from Yue Fei. The skills he learned primarily emphasized various grappling/joint restraining technqiues.

So for this reason his had a direct affect/effect on the overall foundational base of the system.

to go off on tangents on who Yue Fei's teachers were, who was Chen Guang etc. has nothing to to with your inquiry.

Yue Fei was a military man and most definetily learned from many individuals through his lifetime.

There are numerous Yuejiaquan styles out there today who could shed light onto who they considered Yue Fei's most influential teachers. Especially this lineage:
Yue-family Chuan practised in Huangmei County of Hubei Province is simple and uncomplicated and has a close relationship with the Yue family. his sons, Yue Zhen and Yue Ting, and his subordinates.
They taught the arts of Yue-family Chuan in Huangmei, Guangji, Qichun in Hubei as well as the southeastern part of the province. This style of Chuan has been practised by 20 generations over about 800 years. It is recorded that General Yue Fei had been to Huangmei twice, and Yue Zhen accompanied his father and stayed in Huangmei. After Yue Fei was framed and secretly killed by treacherous officials of the Imperial Court, Yue Ting went to join Yue Zhen in Huangmei. The Yue's practised the Chuan and trained their army men in an attempt to avenge their father's death until the Song Dynasty perished. However, the Yue-family Chuan was passed down from generation to generation.

follow the link for various books available on the Yue Jia Quan system. The large brown covered book with MA drawings on it is from this lineage mentioned above.

good luck in your research.

PS: am also on the search for that Zhou Tong wuxia novel, can you lead me in the direction to where you found it.

One of the main points I am trying to stress is that just because a martial lineage says Yue Fei was their founder does not make it true. I can’t say that I trust “oral tales” because people tend to embellish and change the story as it is passed along. It’s kind of like that game you might have played in school where everyone in the class sat in a big circle and the teacher gave one student a phrase to pass around. But when it came around full circle, the phrase was completely different than the original. You said Liquan was "told" the style came from Yue Fei. It could have come from anywhere. Liquan could have created the style himself and then attributed it to Yue Fei. Or the style could have been created during the Qing dynasty and attributed to Yue Fei because the Manchus were the descendents of the Jurchens, whom Yue Fei fought against during the Song Dynasty. So it would be like the resistence-fighters who fought the Manchus used the same style as Yue Fei who fought the Jurchens. Either way, it gives the style some historical and patriotic weight.

My tangents about Yue Fei's teacher(s) are quite valid because Yue Fei would have just been a farmer and forgotten to history had he not trained under whatever master. If he supposedly created all of these different boxing styles, he had to have learned martial arts from somewhere. If you can pinpoint who exactly his teacher or teachers were, you can find out what art they practiced and if it influenced those attributed to Yue Fei.

Yes, it’s true that I spent a great deal of time on here asking questions. But once I found out what sources to look at, I located them and presented the “fully-cited” info in my Jow Tong article. I used this forum as a stepping stone. Like I’ve said before, I don’t claim to know everything on the subject, so I sought help from those who knew more than me.

Now for Zhou Tong’s biography. I’m sure you can find one on a Chinese auction sight. I pestered one of my Chinese friends until he asked his cousin in China to find one for me. I think all together, including the auction price, shipping, and a little extra for the effort, it only cost me $20. I could have gotten it for much less, but they found me one in really good condition. Try typing in the book’s Chinese name 铁臂金刀周侗传 into google. That’s how I originally found it. By the way, it’s a really tiny book, only about 5 x 7 and a little over half an inch thick. I have posted an image of the front cover below. It's just about "actual size" depending on your screen resolution.

Sorry it took me so long to reply to your post, but I never received an email that someone answered in the forum. This is not the first time its ever happened.

Lets take this point by point then.

“I can’t say that I trust “oral tales” because people tend to embellish and change the story as it is passed along.”

Huh? So where do you think the material came from in the books that you referenced?

“You said Liquan was "told" the style came from Yue Fei. It could have come from anywhere. Liquan could have created the style himself and then attributed it to Yue Fei.”

Again, its no different then your source material. Who told them?

“My tangents about Yue Fei's teacher(s) are quite valid because Yue Fei would have just been a farmer and forgotten to history had he not trained under whatever master”

Yue Fei is known as a National Hero for his victories in battle against an invading force. Secondary is his loyalty to country and not emperor. Its quite similar to the “Jesus Christ”. They are known for one or two things but many times they don’t have a complete biography (or its quite boring) and then they enhance it with great deeds, mystical births, etc.

Question: Beyond the Yue Fei Novel, Yuan Dynasty Biograhpy and the the Water Margin Novel, where else in documented history is Zhou Tong mentioned? If he was so famous wouldn’t he have been mentioned more?

By the way the book I posted can trace their lineage back to Yue Fei’s 2 sons. In the book are photos of various books, documents and tablets.

The Oral Tradition of Yangzhou Storytelling - Page 365
by Vibeke Børdahl - Literary Criticism - 1996 - 497 pages
‘Meeting Zhou Tong by Chance' Told by Hui Zhaolong October 1992 After Wu Song
had been appointed a constable of the police force in Yanggu District of ...

I know Yue Fei’s fictional biography is based upon legends. Please reference my Zhou Tong article. There is a brief paragraph which the translator states:

What I should have said is that I don’t trust “unsourced” oral tales, meaning those that were not published in a book in the same dynasty or era in which they are attributed. The legends that make up the fictional biography were preserved in their most popular form as of the early and mid Qing Dynasty. If Yue Fei had really created all of these fighting styles, at least one of them would have been included in one of these legends printed in book form. Just think about it, Eagle Claw, Fanzi, Chuojiao, Xingyi, Wuji, Yue Jia, Liu He, etc. That’s quite a collection and not one of them are ever mentioned, not even in passing. Besides, I think he would have been far too busy forcing the Jin from China than to create all of these styles.

Yue Fei’s historical biography was written by the state. I won’t pretend to know where they got there information from. But it is apart of the official “History of the Song”, one of the “Three Histories of the Yuan,” which is apart of the “24 Histories” cited by historians. I realize that bits of it are not very scholarly since it talks about mythical creatures and Yue Fei’s supernatural strength. It’s highly likely that parts of the fictional biography were taken from this one and the gaps were filled in with the aforementioned legends and Qian Cai’s daydreams.

Can you show me a martial document actually published during (and not alluding to) the Ming Dynasty that mentions Zhou Tong teaching Yue Fei a certain style or Yue Fei creating any style currently attributed to him. If you can, I’ll be very a happy man. I know you are probably going to site from your Yue Family boxing book, so see my comments on that in another section.



He obviously wasn’t famous enough to be mentioned further in Yue Fei’s historical biography (which I comment on in my article). His part in this work takes up about two sentences. But because he was mentioned as the teacher of Yue Fei, his legend grew along side (though dwarfed by) his student’s. That is another one of the major points I have been trying to make. If Zhou tong had been a famous Shaolin monk during the Song, it would have been mentioned in historical records of some kind. If the “legend” of him being a shaolin monk had been around during this time, it would have been mentioned in the stories and songs of the era. But low and behold, they emerge during the late Qing Dynasty, about the time that Eagle Claw was supposedly popular “again”.

Zhou Tong never appears in the Water Margin. There is a bandit named Zhou Tong, but his name is spelled with different characters and he dies during the story. Chuojiao boxing is a common link between Yue Fei and the Water Margin bandits Wu Song and Lin Chong. This connection comes from three unrelated sources. One Chuojiao book written in the 1980’s says Zhou tong learned Chuojiao from its creator and later passed it onto Yue Fei. However, I am currently unaware of when/where the original material for this book comes from. A famous Praying Mantis boxing manual created during the Qing Dynasty mentions Yan Qing, the adopted son of Lu Junyi, as the 7th and Lin Chong as the 13th of the 18 masters invited to Shaolin during the Song Dynasty. The manual states Lin Chong taught his “Mandarin Duck Leg”, which is supposedly another name for Chuojiao. In the Water Margin's 29th chapter, entitled "Wu Song, Drunk, Beats Jiang the Gate Guard Giant", it mentions Wu Song using the "Jade Circle-Steps with Duck and Drake feet". I believe Zhou Tong’s connection with the bandits was spawned from Qian Cai’s imagination. The Water Margin was written 100 years before Qian Cai even wrote Yue Fei’s wuxia biography. If you refer to page 39 in Cai’s book, Lin Chong and Lu Junyi are specifically mentioned, but Wu Song is not. It just seems to me that Qian Cai jumped on the Water Margin’s “popularity train” to beef up Zhou’s fictional credentials by claiming his students were some of the 108 outlaws.

As for Song Dynasty documents which may or may not recall the historical Zhou Tong, I don’t have access to them, so it would be better if you asked someone who does.

That’s fine. Tell me when the documents were published. Were they published before the Ming Dynasty? Are they from the Qing Dynasty? Historical, martial, or whatever, if a lineage document claims one thing and was printed hundreds of years after their founder’s death, it doesn’t really amount to much. If it’s not from at least the Yuan Dynasty, some people might deny the claim. And the only reason I say the Yuan Dynasty is because during part of the southern song, Yue Fei was still considered a criminal by the state and there probably aren't too many documents available about him after his death during this time. In fact, I read that when the original Bai Jia Xing (百家姓 - “Common Peoples’ Surnames”, a.k.a. “100 Family Surnames") was written during the Song, the Yue family name wasn’t included because he hadn’t been rehabilitated by the state yet. Since Zhao was the song royal family name, it went first, the second, Qiang was the maiden name of a royal wife and the rest of the names were based upon idiomatic phrases. Here is where I got the info from: LINK! Of course I’m not too sure on how accurate this info is. My knowledge of the history of the 100 Family Surnames is sorely lacking. However, I did find one page which displays the names (See HERE!) The chart was expanded in a later dynasty to over 500 names and Yue is in it now. But still not the top 100.



Is the Zhou Tong mentioned the Bandit or Yue Fei's teaher? I would like to see that and at least mention it on my Zhou Tong page. Is Hui Zhaolong a famous story teller? Wu Song is mentioned as one of Zhou Tong’s first students in his wuxia biography. This is mentioned towards the end since the book is mostly about the young Zhou Tong.

I just looked that book up. It looks pretty hefty at 500 pages.

Nevermind. I contacted a seller and they told me it was Yue Fei's teacher. I didn't really doubt you, but I've seen so many internet pages (even yours at one time I believe) that equated Yue Fei's Zhou Tong with the Water Margin's Zhou Tong. Thanks for telling me about the book. I found a cheap copy of it online. Heck, the new ones are $150!

fyi- A eagle has talons not claws.
The talon is the claw of a bird of prey.

Wonder if "Eagle Talon" system sound better?

Yue's biography from the Yuan (岳飞传) was actually written by Yue's grandson Yue Ke during the late southern Song dynasty and then was later compiled in the 宋史 (History of the Song Dynasty) during the Yuan. I recently read something that said Prime Minister Qin Hui, who called for the execution of Yue, wrote his own version of Yue's bio. I've never read it, but I'm sure it casts him in a negative light. Yue Ke's "embroidering" of his grandfather's tale was probably in an attempt to not only clear his grandfather's name, but also to make him seem like a larger than life patriotic hero (possibly even more than what he really was.) No body is perfect, but his bios make him out to be.

I've done a great deal of research and came to the simple conclusion that the modern day image of Zhou Tong is nothing more than a distinct fictional person that was born in wuxia novels and folktales. This image was popularized when Zhou was added to the lineage history of several martial styles, despite the fact that all we know is his name and that he had knowledge of archery.