I noticed that every dialect group has been covered in this thread. I just want to add my own. The Toisan (Taishan) people are a little known sub-branch of the Cantonese people. Cantonese people are often said to be divided into 2 branch dialect groups: the Sam Yup (3 district group) and the Sei Yup (4 district group). Guangzhou, Hong Kong, Macau and Zhongshan belongs to the Sam Yup, while Toisan, Xinhui, Kaiping belongs to the Sei Yup. I believe that Sam Yup Cantonese had undergone more influences from Mandarin than compared to Sei Yup and Toisan languages.

But, the more important factor is that Toisan people contributed to the early history of Chinese in America. Many of them challenged the early unjust and racist laws and actions of white Americans against Chinese and other Asians. Their forefathers worked the railways and goldmines of America. Their descendants today are in danger of fading into oblivion, integration, intermarriage and amalgamation with other cultures in America. Good thing or bad, I don't know?

I want Cantonese and esp. Toisan descended people to know that they come from a glorious tradition.

There is a 'secret' of our history that I need to share.

This are some good and informative sites about our early history:

http://www.legacy1.net/index.html

http://www.legacy1.net/taishan.html

http://www.legacy1.net/xinhui.html


In 214 BC the Qin Dynasty (¯³) conquered Nanyue («n¶V) and divided the area into three quon (°p) or prefectures, Guilin (®ÛªL), Namhoi («n®ü), and Cheung (¶H). Xinhui was part of Namhoi quon («n®ü°p).

Things remained relatively unchanged until the Three Kingdom period (¤T°ê®É¥N). In 222 AD, one of the Kingdoms, Wu (§d), established Wuyee County (ªZ¦i¿¤) which approximately where present Xinhui is situated. The name was changed to Xinyee (·s¦i) in 280 AD. Sine the word yee (¦i) means barbarians then it is not difficult to conclude this part of China was not exactly civilized. In actual fact the northerner, the inhabitants north of the Yangtze, commonly referred the inhabitants across the river and beyond as Southern Barbarians («nÆZ¤l).

The name Xinhui (·s·|) first appeared in 420 when Xinhui Quon (·s·|°p) which initially contained three and later increased to twelve counties was established. It covered a large area including the entire present Xinhui, Taishan (¥x¤s), Heshan (Åb¤s), Kaiping (¶}¥­), Shunde (¶¶¼w), southeast portion of both Xinxing (·s¿³) and Gaoming (°ª©ú), eastern portion of Enping (®¦¥­), northeastern and eastern portions of Zhongshan (¤¤¤s).

The next major change came in 590 AD when it and six other counties were placed under the jurisdiction of Feng Zhou («Ê¦{). The next year it was renamed E Zhou ((¤¹¦{)) which two years later was changed to Gong Zhou (©£¦{). Gong Zhou was also the name of town where the Xinhui administration was located. Many historians believe it is located at the southwest corner of present day Xinxing. During the ensuring 130 years, there were many flip-flops on Gong Zhou. Finally, Gong Zhou was abolished and the land was divided into two counties, Xinhui and Yeening (¸q¹ç), under the jurisdiction of Guangzhou (¼s¦{). Xinhui's boundaries were finally established and remained unchanged until 1152.

From 1152-1732 the following counties were established by partitioned land from Xinhui. The first, in 1152, to be established was Huengshan (­»¤s) which was renamed in the 20th century to Zhongshan (¤¤¤s). It is the birthday place of the father of modern China, Dr. Sun Yat-sen. Following the Chinese tradition of not using the country's chief executive's (prime minister) personal name but the county of origin. Thus to the Chinese he is generally known as Sun Zhongshan (®]¤¤¤s). Three other counties were established in fairly rapid fashion: Shunde (1452), Enping (1478) and Xinning (·s¹ç)(1499). The final two partitions took place during the Qing Dynasty (²M´Â), Kaiping (1649) and Heshan (1732).

Xinhui will always be remembered as where, Yamen (±Vªù), the army of the Southern Sung Dynasty («n§º), in 1279, made its last stand against the invading all-conquering Mongolian army. The prime minister, Luk Shiufu (³°¨q¤Ò), determining that both himself and the emperor should never be captured, strapped the eight year-old child onto his back and jumped off the cliff into the water below.

The story doesn't end here. Legend has it that days later a monk found the body of a young boy in a yellow robe (traditionally yellow is the colour reserved for the royal family) floating in the open sea. The body was sheltered by birds. After collecting the body and upon close examination the monk discovered the royal seal (¥Éâ) which confirmed the body was that of the boy emperor. Quietly the monk buried the body and it wasn't till years later before words of this grave got out. Now each Qing Ming (²M©ú) the Chiu (Zhao) Association in Hong Kong visits grave and pays its respect. The legend and photo of the grave are provided by Henry Chiu.

Another legend is that this child emperor hung his robe on a lychee tree before the fatal event. From then onward, lychees from the area all have a green strip and the sweetest (±¾ºñ¯ïªK).

http://www.legacy1.net/nanxiong.html

Nanxiong county lies in the northeast part of Guangdong province. It has 24 towns and a population of 440,000. Historically, Nanxiong connected Guangdong and Jiangxi which made it the key junction between northern and southern China. It was a marketplace and the central point in the exchange of goods and cultures between Central China and the outpost Guangdong.

As with all ancient towns, there are many places of historic interest. We, however, are primarily interested in Zhuji Lane (¯]¿Y«Ñ). It lies in the Meiguan ancient post road (±öÃö¥jÅæ¹D), nine kilometers from the northern part of Nanxiong county.

Zhuji Lane was first called Jingzong Lane (·q©v«Ñ). The change came about during the Tang Dynasty (­ð´Â). According to folklore, seven generations of the Zhang Chang (±i©÷) family lived together in Jingzong Lane. The Imperial court in 825AD bestowed upon them a1 pearl lace for this filial obedience. The following year, the emperor died and his official clan temple title (©v¼që¬) was Jingzong. In ancient China it was a common or rather imperative practice to avoid using the same characters as the names and titles of the emperors. Thus Jingzong Lane was changed to Zhuji Lane for this purpose and also to commemorate the honour received by the Zhang Chang family. Zhuji Lane is 1,500 meters long and 4 meters wide. It is paved with cobble stone. There are village houses and memorial temples on each side of the road. Shops are connected with each other, winding straight but orderly, uneven and protruding but naturally. Along this lane in addition to ancient buildings and ruins are bridges, pond and river.

Because of its geographic location, Zhuji Lane became very prosperous during the Tang and Song dynasties. It was a true melting pot where north met south and people with different surnames became neighbours. At the end of the Song Dynasty (§º´Â), Zhuji Lane residents migrated southward to the Pearl (Zhujiang) River delta ( ¯]¦¿¤T¨¤¬w) to avoid the invading Mongolian army. It was an exodus because a total of 134 surnames and thousands of people were involved. They helped to spread the more advanced Central Plain culture and production techniques to the then still relatively uninhabited southern frontier. The city of Guangzhou has a Zhuji Road (¯]¿Y¸ô) which is supposingly named to commemorate many of the city residents' place of origin.



1 Source: History Subordinate to Nanxiong county

So, there you have it. This is our history of the Toisan and Cantonese origins. We have native Yue as well as Tang/Song aristocrats-soldiers in our blood.

Our ancestors battled Kublai Khan until the death do us part. The last Song emperor is buried in our ancestors land. I know his spirit continues to bless Guangdong and Cantonese people.

I have to completely rewrite my essay because I have wrongfully assumed Meng family was from the ancient Song State when in fact it was from Qi.

It is recorded by 214 Before Christian Era, Qin General Ming Tien and Qin General Chao To had conquered Fukien, Kwantung, Kwangsi, and Tongking. Soon after, Qin General Ming Tien was sent north to start his ill fated project to complete and to unify the famous Great Wall of China. Qin General Chao To remained in the south looking after the southern conquest.

A previous theory had postulated Qin General Chao To were from the state of Zhao the same as his name sake. The theory goes it was he who led the Tiu Chow people from north china to settle in northeast Guangdong. Taishan people and their home region though separated from the Tiu Chow people and Tiu Chow home region geographically has been closely linked to them ethnically. The Taishan people also have close cultural and historical ties to Chao Kuang Yin’s Song Dynasty. The founder of the Song Dynasty must have thought his Chao clan were descendants of the ancient Song State to name his new empire after it. The ancient Song State was an off shoot of the Shang 商 Dynasty.

Since Qin General Chao To clan name is identical to that of the Song Emperors’ I can put forward an alternative theory to the origin of the Tiu Chow people and associated Taishan people. My hypotheses is Qin General Chao To like that of the Song Emperors’ were originally of the descent from the ancient Song State and is therefore associated and identified with the epithet Shang 商. It is recorded (Sima Qian, Historical Records, The Annals of Qin) that deserters, no good sons in law, and merchants were conscripted in to the army that conquered Luliang. My assumption is Shang 商 has been misidentified with merchants. The Qin army that campaigned in south China were partly composed of Song people led by Qin General Chao To who was also of Song and therefore Shang 商 origin.

It is recorded in Sima Qian, Historical Records, The Story of the Rebel Chen Sheng, that the Bai Yue 百越 were deployed in Guilin and Xiang which would mean another different army were guarding Nanhai. This other army was the people of the Song State with the epithet Shang 商, and in accord with the Later Han Historical Records let by Chao To. It was they who were guarding Nanhai and their descendants are the Tiu Chow people. As the Taishan people are related to the Tiu Chow people, the Taishan people could also be partly descended from the army led by Chao To. Taishan people are also partly descended from later north migrants.

Hey Kaixin this is great news thanks for this much info!!

I am kind of confused by the naming of ­»¤s - did they just arbitrarily change their name to ¤¤¤s in the 20th century then the Chinese started to refer to Dr. Sun Yat-sen as Sun Zhongshan (®]¤¤¤s)?

I think this portion is incorrect. I believe ­»¤s was renamed to ¤¤¤s in commemoration of Dr. Sun Yat-sen, not the other way around. (Can you give another example of where a Chinese prime minister was known by his county name rather than personal name?) Dr. Sun Yat-sen got the name Sun Zhongshan as a result of studying in Japan, where he used the name Nakayama Sho (¤¤¤s¾ö). Upon his return to China the name ¤¤¤s Zhongshan stuck since it has positive connotative connections to China (Middle Mountain).

Any info about Heshan? My grandfather came from Guangdong Province, Heshan County, Zhishan Town, Pingsha Villiage.
My 1st ancestor of Heshan, Lin Songqi, came from Fujian to settle in Heshan during the Song Dynasty. So I'm not sure whether we have mixed blood with the Yue people.
By the way, I'm also curious to know who are my 'tongxiang'(Sei Yap people) in CHF.

Here is some maps of Guangdong 广东 (You can find Heshan 鹤山, Zhishan 址山 there):
http://www.sinomaps.com/non-cgi/usr/39/39_120_25.jpg
http://www.ctrip.com/html/tour/ingroup/4108map.htm


If you meant 'Yue' of 'BaiYue' then yes, IMO Hokkien is more 'Yue' than Cantonese.

Does your family speak Taishan, or Chiu Chao, or Hakka, or Hokien, or Cantonese? Chiu Chao and many Hakka places were formerly parts of Fujian. Is Taishan dialect similar to Chiu Chao dialect? Which Yue do you mean Viet Yue 越 or Cantonese Yue 粵?

My family speaks Heshan dialect(Cantonese-Sei Yap language) but I can also speak Teochew(Chaozhou/Chiu Chao). Heshan dialect is totally different from Chiu Chao dialect(except for the word chicken, its quite same). It is more like Cantonese dialect.
The Yue I meant is Nan Yue, not Cantonese Yue.

Wow..... Lin Duanwen we may be cousins!

My family is also from Heshan county. My last name is 文. The older generation of my family always said we descended from the famous Song General 文 天祥. Unfortunately I have been unable to get any proof.

Since 文 is a relatively rare Chinese surname....i'm sure every Chinese with that last name claims this !

My family basically speaks Cantonese, my mom can also speak Toishan dialect as she is from Kaiping (Hoiping). Yes, Heshan has their own local dialect, but to me it's not similar to Cantonese, at least I didnt' understand it when I visited Heshan.

文 天祥 may have been Hakka by the way.

The 文 family is considered one of the 5 big original founding families of Hong Kong. There is a 文 village in the Yuen Long area of HK with a 文 天祥 memorial park and museum.

The Pic in my avatar was taken there.

Can anybody help me get more info on 文 天祥 ? I can't really read much Chinese unfortunately.

I thought Tiu Chow was a Fukienese dialect? Toisanese is more closer to Cantonese. IMO it is a Cantonese dialect, but with different pronunciations, that's it.

Chiu (Zhao) is a very common surname among the Toisan people.

It is wrong that they killed 2 boys in that war with the bloody Mongols. They were just children. That is why I will never stand for others who claim that Mongols and Manchus did good to our history.

Seeing how the Song court made their last stand and died thinking it was the end for China, makes me as a Cantonese, a inheritor of this great Tang/Song tradition want to continue this honorable tradition of being a true and proud Chinese. May their spirits rest in peace. We have survived and fought on strong.

Hmm... where does it say in here that the Cantonese are the descendants of "Tang/Song aristocrats-soldiers"? How did you come to this conclusion? In addition, this website seems to be a personal website whose historical veracity seems very questionable.

For someone who claims to only seek the truth and despise chauvinism, you sure do seem to fabricate much about the ancestry of the Cantonese. It seems more like a quest to convince and claim for your self a supposed glorious ancestry...

^Hey, there is a source I listed buddy.

I am not a historian or scholar, but everyone feintly familiar with Chinese history knows that the Song fought its last major battle against the Mongols in Guangdong and that indeed over 200,000 refugees migrated into the region subsequently.

And once again, I do not see anywhere in your "source" (or any other source, academic opinion, etc., I've come across) where it says the Cantonese are the descendents of "Tang/Song aristocrats-soldiers". Please point me to the exact line where it states that. In addition, if you are talking about the exodus during the Song, why do you inexplicably include "Tang aristocrats-soldiers" in this claim of yours? Perhaps I missed it in this source of yours?

I thought you are a Han Chinese

Viet=Yue=Nan Yue.

That always make me laugh, finally the term "cantonese" which invented by westerns come to be an ethnic , an individual entity, an nation, and an culture, maybe some years later, it is a civilization.

I guess you misread this:


Clearly the equality in the right hand side does not hold

Seiyap-Cantonese (Siyi or 4 counties) is a group of districts south of Guangzhou, in southern China. The area gives rise to the Seiyap-Cantonese dialects, which is different from standard Cantonese. These dialects are spoken in the counties of Taishan, Kaiping, Enping, Xinhui, Heshan and the city of Jiangmen. Until 1965, the Siyi dialects were the most spoken Chinese dialects in North America.

Jiangmen is a prefecture-level city in Guangdong province in southern China with a population of about 3.8 million.

Taishan is a coastal city in Guangdong Province, China. The city is located southwest of Jiangmen, 140 kilometers west of Hong Kong, in the Pearl River delta, and it is home to 1 million people. It also contains 95 islands and islets, including the largest island in Guangdong, the 137 km² Shangchuan Island.

Kaiping is a county-level city in the Guangdong province of southern China. Population: 188,000. Area: 1,611 km².

Enping is a city in Guangdong Province, China. As of 2005, there are 460,000 residents in Enping. Some of the earliest overseas Chinese came from Enping. There are 420,000 overseas Chinese with ancestry in Enping in over 50 countries.

Xinhui is a county-level city in Guangdong province, in southern China. Population: 735,500.

Heshan is a county-level city in the southern part of Guangdong province, China.

Famous Seiyap-Cantonese: Gary Locke/Luo Jiahui (Governor of Washington 1997-2005).

http://www.sinomaps.com/non-cgi/usr/39/39_120_25.jpg

Cantonese is not an ethnic entity. But, it is some of the condescending attitudes from non-Cantonese Chinese as well as non-Chinese (ie ngoivietchantong) that puts us Cantonese in defensive mode.

I just had a chat with a "Taiwanese nationalist/separatist." He tells me how proud he is of his Yue ancestry and goes on to talk of how he hates northern Chinese and Shanghainese. He says that he thinks Guangdongnese can also survive on its own and become a separate nation. That is when I thought that we Cantonese can never relate to the Taiwanese separatism. We also don't like the attitudes of non-Cantonese Chinese, but we will always still view ourselves as Chinese to the end because we are still Chinese at heart, spirit and history. Cantonese have contributed much to China, esp. modern Chinese history. No way we are going to part ways.

Plus, that 'exodus' did not begin in the Song. In Cantonese 'zupu' (geneology books), the clan can trace back to Tang and some even farther. There already were some Han people in Guangdong near the end of the Tang era. It just accelerated more during the Song, when Mongol invasions forced more people to move around.

Shanghainese also genetically close to Southern people. It's more like PRC-hating rather than genetic issues.


Why should it be separate nation? Look just at Russia and Indonesia.

Why, dear? All Southern Chinese share the same feeling if they read the same articles.

Looks the same as Hakka's claim, but I want to know how about Hokkien people.

^Fukienese probably have the same geneological and migration history too. More likely, their migration took place during the 3 kingdoms period.

Hakka, do indeed have some identical geneological history with Cantonese. The reason we don't know, but probably they both left at some similar departure point in the past. They even have the same 4 migration history. I think Cantonese migrated a little bit earlier. Hakkas didn't enter Guangdong until the Ming Dynasty. Before that, they were mostly in Jiangxi and Fujian.

It seems that the area of this Sei-Yap is not too large.
What's the total area of this area?

Remarks: The map is quite old, the area of 廉州府 now is part of Guangxi, and Hai Nan is now an independent province.

Actually, in China, never did there existed the distinguishment of the origin of different provinces.

The regional differences is still not strong enough to encourage the self-pride of one's province, only they were quarelling or fighting they will quote the ugly "monickers" of the other region people attack and glorify himself when all the methods went out of usage. They are just in common got the same bad habbits of all chinese. Sometimes I did it too. Forums are full of those craps always, hard to imagine if that happen in other countries...

Maybe it is because so many oversea chinese are orginally cantonese, they love this term , it doesn't matter. We all love our ancestors. Hehe, the clash of civilizations and the remark of world order,isn't it?

^ Yeah, usually only when they are fighting will they "discriminate" by bringing the name of the origin of places.
Sometimes Chinese "look down on"/"laugh at" other Chinese by linguistic difference etc.

Sei Yap 四邑 Cantonese are sometimes looked down on by Sang Sing 省城 Cantonese.

A number of linguists have classified Chiu Chao language as a part of the Min languages and they also maintain a strong view that Chiu Chao was historically part of Fujian and not Guangdong. These evidences contradict the theory that Chiu Chao people were originally from Zhao State of the warring state period led by Qin General Zhao Tau who is also of Zhao State originally. As there are no evidence put forward to counter these facts, I have NO ground to sustain the point that Qin General Zhao Tau and the Chiu Chao people are from the Zhao State. This is because the Zhao State and its people speak a Zhou Dynasty language which is a north china language. The Min on the other is a south China language.

The only conclusion to draw from the available evidence is Taishan people were led by the Qin General Zhao Tau and both him and the Taishan people as according to my theory previous explained above were originally from the Song State and identified with the epithet Shang 商. Later northern migrants who also has Song and Shang 商 origins joined up with them.

Such a position can only change when for example Chiu Chao is shown as not part of Min linguistically and culturally or Zhao Tau and Taishan people is shown as not having Song and Shang 商 origins.

^Taishan did not come into existence until the late Ming Dynasty. Originally, it was part of Xinhui county.

Also, the Cantonese people there did not really take form until the later part of the Tang Dynasty and early part of the Song. Before that, people there were sparsely settled and most likely still ethnically 100% YUE. The Qin and Han Dynasty did not really settle people there except for convicts and exiles.

Qin General Zhao Tau and Qin General Meng Tien were not Yue 越, and the army that they led to conquered Luliang was not Yue 越. Zhao Tau and his army that settle in Nanhai were not Yue 越. There is nothing Yue 越 about historical Nanhai apart being a province of Nan Yue where Zhao Tau and his army had their capital there. The only historical evidence available is the Bai Yue 百越 was settled and garrisoned in Guilin and Xiang that now made up Guangxi. There is where the Bai Yue 百越 and their descendants have left their marks.

I have contemporaneous historical evidence to back up my exposition. However, there are no historical evidence that the Bai Yue 百越 had settle in Nanhai.

^I don't know about Chaozhou people, but the bulk of Cantonese people's ancestors did not really start to populated Guangdong until the 980-1080 ADs. Look at my other thread and the census. Most Cantonese trace their migrations via Nanxiong in northern Guangdong during the Tang and Song.

Why bother with territorial difference? Language can spread across boundary of provinces.
Zhao Tuo was born in somewhere (Zhen Ding?) that was in today's Hebei. He can move so far South, why can't people follow him?
By the way "North China language" does not make sense in that ancient age. Zhou might be in North but language was still very archaic. Same as Tang that still have stop endings.


I've heard the past ethnic Li/Lao 俚/佬(僚?) branch of BaiYue settled in HaiNan.

^Hainan today is mainly inhabited by Chiuchou people who moved there during the Qing. but, there are also Cantonese, Hakka and "Yue" minorities as well. I think it will become the "Hawaii" of China someday.

I believe Medieval Gan dialect speakers of the Song Dynasty could have most likely past through the Ganzhou 赣洲 Nanxiong 南雄 corridor to Guangdong. However ancient Man 蛮 people went through Changsha to Guilin route as did the Chu 楚 settlers/refugees to establish themselves in Guangxi first before moving on to Guangdong. The Bai Yue 百越 and Min went through a total opposite route using either or both Meizhou 梅州 and Chaozhou 潮洲.

There is no such thing as census of ancient population as the earliest one is the doomsday book of 12 Century Christian Era. People who use census of ancient population before that date are misleading people.

Do you know the approximate age (i.e. what dynasty/ies) the movements took place?

I believe there were some census but it did not count how many persons there were, but rather households. That's also how we know the ancient army's number.

First off I have to distinguish the ‘southern Man’ from the ‘northern Man’. It is the ‘southern Man’ who formed the Luliang Kingdom while it is the ‘northern Man’ who formed the Chu State. The ‘southern Man’ is the proto type Yue 粤. The ‘southern Man’ and ‘northern Man’ could have belonged to the same singular political unity a number of times such as during the Xia and Shang dynasties. However by the Western Zhou period the Man political cohesiveness reflected the political disunity and turmoil that followed the collapse of the Shang. I would say the ‘southern Man’ migrated south during the formation of the Western Zhou Dynasty at the end of the 2nd Millennium. They took the Changsha to Guilin route. The process of consolidation between the ‘southern Man’ and the Austro-Asiatic Mon civilization appeared to be less one sided as attested by the strong enduring influence of the Austro-Asiatic culture on the Luliang Kingdom and Chu State. However as the Mon had predominate the Austronesian before, this time the proto type Yue 粤 predominate the Austro-Asiatic Mon. The end result is the largely Sinitic Luliang Kingdom. During the Spring and Autumn period a large number of Chu settlers migrated south to present day Guangxi also by way of Changsha to Guilin. But the end of the Warring States period Chu people going south to Luliang was entirely refugees.

With the successful Qin conquest of Luliang which witness a large number of Qin resettlement programs, the first of which is the establishment of the proto type Taishan community by the Song or Shang 商 mercenaries who had formed a part of the Qin army led by Qin General Meng Tien and Qin General Zhao Tau. Next the BaiYue 百越 were commissioned to garrison Guilin and Xiang soon after 214 Before Christian Era. The BaiYue 百越 most likely started from present day Fujian by way of present day Meizhou crossing present day northern Guangdong to get to present day Guangxi.

As strongly advocated by its supporters, Song people migrated through Ganzhou 赣洲 Nanxiong 南雄 corridor to reach Guangdong during the Song Dynasty period. However I believe earlier migrations some of which is stated above and later migrations have the same importance in the formation of Guangdong and Guangxi.

No census has been taken prior to the Doomsday Book of 12 Century Christian Era.

Any references to those Mans' story?

Some says that Chu was Austroasiatic, Shang was Austronesian but I don't know how they could say this.

There were census of army, probably there also were for population, but the units might be households.
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=7080
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=5638

The reference book or possibly books you requested I am afraid is not now available to me as there are in England. That is where I have acquired the information. They do go into detail about Southern China. The reference book I have with me at the moment is quite substantial ‘The Cambridge History Of Ancient China’ but unfortunately it goes into detail focus of North China mainly. The information it has on the Man though support my exposition to a certain extent is vague enough to confuse the point I am trying to make.

The Cambridge book does make quite clear that the Chu State is Man ethnically both in population and in ruling nobility but nevertheless the Chu ruling clan does have royal Zhou confirmation of investiture. This state was initially of modest size in the upper reaches of the Han River in Shaanxi just south of Wei River Valley. Such a close proximity to the Western Zhou Royal Domain would confirm my designation of the Chu State as ‘northern Man’. It geographical far north position would make the Chu State extremely unlikely to be Austro-Asiatic. My ‘southern Man’ are the people occupying Mid Yangtze and this civilization is what most documents described when their write about Man. This Mid Yangtze Man culture is what people most linked to Austro-Asiatic and to which I disagree with.

Lastly no census was ever taken on the Austronesian, nor was there ever a census taken on the Austro-Asiatic. In addition no census was ever taken on the Man. Your references of different armies' sizes do not constitute census.

^I'd be kinda skeptical about Western sources and authors on Chinese history. A lot of them have agendas. Some of them even try to claim that Tang Dynasty founders were not ethnically Chinese, when it was clear they had Chinese patrilineal descent. They want to "de-Sinicize" Chinese history as much as possible and make us look effeminated. Be careful.

Records of the Grand Historian: Han Dynasty I, Revised Edition, Sima Qian, Translated by Burton Watson, Chapter Li Yiji and Lu Jia, Page 225, A Renditions – Columbia University Press Book, Hong Kong New York, 1961.

This is an update in Zhao Tuo’s place of origin. He home town is in the Zhao state as shown in the above historical documentation. However Chiu Chao people remain a southern ethnicity and therefore could not have been the people whom Zhao Tuo led down from the northern state of Zhao to settle in Guangdong as exposited by a Vietnamese poster of this forum. One possible explanation could be though Zhao Tuo is from the Zhao state, he could have led a number of different groups of people from various states. One group could well be as I have theorized from the Sung state.

One little question.. What do you mean "Chiu Chao people remain a southern ethnicity"? Aren't all who live in Southern place 'Southern ethnicity'? (e.g. Hakka, Cantonese, Hainanese)

Chiu Chao is a member of the Min family in language, race, and customs. The Min family is related to other southern Chinese ethnicity. On the other hand there is no evidence for the Min family to have direct relationship with a northern family like the former Zhao state.

Min family also like to claim that they are North migrant, but I don't know what they claim to be the bases.
(well, I've never heard they call themselves 'Min' or in their style "Ban", they seem to like 'Hokkien' much better)

If anyone claimed they to be Southerner or the same as the 'Min' of 'Min-yue' probably they will say same as Cantonese, it's only a name of people who lived there before they arrived.

I just found your commentary from a random search of Toisan China, where my parents hail from. I really enjoyed reading your notes and I appreciate the information on my Toisan heritage. I've lived in Los Angeles most of my life, during a time when you would still hear Toisanese spoken in Chinese restaurants. Now, if I want to hear Toisannese, I have to go to San Francisco or New York. Still, whenever I hear others speak it, I feel a little warm inside, since I speak almost only English now. My brother now speaks more Mandarin now, as his wife is from Taiwan, and I will be speaking more Cantonese as my fiance is from Hong Kong. Still, I am proud of my Toisan roots and one day, one day, I'll get a chance to see the village where my heritage all started. Thanks again for the info!

I hear that there is a play about him called 'King of Nan Yue' that will start soon in Guangzhou. I wonder what it will be like?

a bit a about the Toisan dialect. like someone bfore had said , the dialect is in a way accented Cantonese. .. To hear Toisanese, I would suggest watching Karl Mak(the baldy) in the Aces Go Places series...

One feature of Toisanese is the t' >h phenomenon...

In Toisanese, Toisan will be called Hoi San

It's more complicated than that since there are words in Toisanese that sounds quite different from any other forms of Cantonese.

Does the relation between Toishanese and Cantonese similar to the relation between Teochew and Hokkian?