Zunjing de China History Forum members,

Hmm, it really seems like this entire thread got deleted during the crash. I would like to restart this thread since I have saved all my posts for this topic.

Xie Xie,

Zunjing de Shen Nong,

Whoa, are you serious regarding remarriage being a common thing during the Han Dynasty for all social levels? This is actually very shocking for me since I have always believed that chastity was one of the most important virtues a woman must fulfill at all times. Why did this view change toward the end of the Han Dynasty? Would you happen to know the view(s) regarding remarriage during the earlier periods of Shang, Zhou and Qin Dynasties?

Xie Xie,

Zunjing de Shen Nong,

You are right; the definition of “chastity” is regularly under construction. I don’t know about others; however, the definition of “chastity” that I am most aware of would be through the series of books written by Qiong Yao, a very famous female author. I am sure these series of books offer the viewpoint(s) of the 20th century, where remarriage was considered as such a horrible thing and families felt extremely ashamed by it.

I have heard that female discrimination was at its all time worst during the Song Dynasty. If you have more information regarding why this was the case, then please enlighten me.

I am happy to find out that at least there were some eras in Chinese History, where widowed women were not looked down upon for remarrying after their husbands’ death. Maybe the idea of complete chastity was too ideal that it can only mostly be seen in TV Series or fictional novels. Unfortunately, we tend to know more by watching TV Series and reading fictional novels instead of paying attention to actual historical sources.

Yeah, you are right; dynastic histories would not be a very good source to find out more information regarding this topic since they would have focused much more on the Emperors/Empresses and the rise and downfall of each dynasty. Ancient historians did not really seem to be all that concerned regarding social issues like remarriages.

Xie Xie,

Zunjing de Yun the Sage-King,

Hmm, this is very interesting. Do you really think that the practice of glorifying chastity really started existing in the late Han Dynasty as a way of preventing nomadic customs of stepsons marrying their stepmothers from being prevalent in China?

By the way, I know that Han Wudi’s mother married his father as her second husband. Also, Princess Ping Yang, Han Wudi’s elder sister, remarried Wei Qing in her forties. However, they were all royalties as they would always get special treatments. Hence, I still don’t think remarriage was common among the civilians during the Han Dynasty. Were there a few remarriages among the common people?

Xie Xie,

Contray to popular (mis)conception, in many aspects women actually enjoyed more freedom and a higher social status in Song than in Tang. In case of remarriage, Tang Wan (Lu You's first wife) and Li Qingzhao were among the more famous examples. The political refomer and prime minister Wang Anshi arranged his daughter-in-law to divorce his son and remarry, because his son was suffering from mental disorder. Another famous statesman Fan Zhongyan also arranged his daughter-in-law's remarriage to one of his students after his son's death.



Actually, Han Wudi's mother wasnt a royalty when she remarried. Here are some more exmaples of remarriages from Han dynasty:
Han Wudi's maternal grandmother. Wudi's mother was from her first marriage and Wudi's uncle Tian Fen (who later became a Prime Minister) was from her second marriage.
Chen Ping's wife: Chen Ping's wife already remarried 4 times before marrying Chen Ping (so Chen Ping is her sixth husband)
Zhuo Wenjun: Zhou Wenjun was a widow when she met Sima Xiangru.
Zhu Maichen's wife. She divorced Zhu and remarried. Once she and her second husband met Zhu, seeing Zhu was poor and hungary, the couple invited him for dinner. Later Zhu became a governor and asked his former wife and her husband to dine with him when he's on a trip back to his hometown.

Zunjing de Nero’s Neptune,

Whoa, it is so shocking to me to hear that someone thinks women actually enjoyed more freedom and had a higher social status in the Song Dynasty than in the Tang Dynasty. Is not the Tang Dynasty very well-known for having the least amount of women discrimination among the Chinese Dynasties? I remember reading a book called “History of China,” where it stated that female discrimination was at its all time high during the Song Dynasty as it was largely due to Neo-Confucianism, the dominating philosophy of that era. Have I gotten the wrong information?

Hmm, it is interesting and weird for me to find out that some famous reformers or prime ministers arranged for their daugher-in-laws to get remarried. I surmise they were compassionate enough to understand the pains and sufferings their daughter-in-laws were going through. However, I believe these ministers would belong to the minorities rather than the majorities.

Thanks for giving me a list of a few noteworthy women, who had remarried at least once. If you can further elaborate or direct me to relevant sources regarding female discrimination in the Song Dynasty, then I would greatly appreciate it!

Xie Xie,

Some prominent Neo-Confucianists like Chéng Yí (程颐) were definitely dogmatic against women remarrying, considering it a loss of virtue.

From 《程氏遺書》卷二十二
有人問程頤先生曰：「寡婦貧苦無依，能不能再嫁乎哉？」，程頤則提出「絕對不能，有些人怕凍死餓死，才用饑寒作為借口，要知道，餓死事小，失節事大。」

Chéng Yí was asked, "If a destitute widow was without any means of support, could she remarry?"
Chéng Yí replied, "Definitely not. Only those who fear dying of cold or hunger would use it as an excuse. One must realise, dying of hunger is trivial compared to losing one's chasity."

The prevalence of the philosophy in the Song society though could not be measured by the prominence of its advocate nor acceptance by the leadership.

It would be like determining how the American is like because of Pat Robertson and George W. Bush.

And in historical China, official records tended to be one-sided.

It's true Zhu-Cheng school of Neo-Confucianism was developed during Song, but I wouldn't say it's the dominate philosophy of that period as it was never recognized by the State and indeed was banned by Ningzong Emperor. Comparing that with Zhezong Emperor's Imperial edict to make remarriage easier for women (by reducing the period after husbands' death in which widows are not allowed to remarry from the traditional 27 months to 100 days), it's a twist of fate that Song was later assumed to be discriminating against women remarrying and supportive of Neo-Confucianism -- where the truth was quite the opposite.




Cheng Yi wasnt just against women remarrying, he's against remarriage in general, from the same source (《程氏遺書》)

又問：「再娶皆不合禮否？」曰：「大夫以上無再娶禮。凡人為夫婦時，豈有一人先死，一再娶，一人再嫁之約？只約終身夫婦也。，但自大夫以下，有不得已再娶者，蓋緣奉公姑，或主內事爾。如大夫以上，至諸侯天子，自嬪妃可以供祀禮，所以不許再娶也。」

Cheng Yi was asked, "Does men remarrying conflict with Li?". Cheng Yi said, "Men from the scholar-gentry class and above should not remarry. During time of marriage, was there any couple who vowed that if one of them dies, the other can remarry? No, they only vow to be husband and wife for a lifetime. But for people from classes below scholar-gentry, they might have to remarry, not out of their choice, but in order to maintain rituals, take care of parents, and keep the household functioning. As for people from the scholar-gentry class and up to the nobility and the Emperor, they already have concubines to help with rituals, thus they are not allowed to remarry.

I'm not sure if he realise how ridiculous he sounded.

First, he presume the elites such as those from scholar-gentry to nobility and royalty would have concubines.

Second, there was an imaginary distinction drawn between an elite "remarrying" and "taking a concubine" as if there was a practical/significant difference.

If a man taking a concubine is not considered as remarrying, then a widow becoming a concubine should not be considered as remarrying either.

While there might be a difference in the legal status of a wife (婦) and a concubine (嬪妃), should the wife be deceased, the concubine normally assume de facto role and function of the wife in the household, especially if the concubine is the mother of the heir.

Zunjing de Snowybeagle Xian Sheng,

Well, it was always the social convention to have discriminations against women. In fact, these types of discriminations still exist today. With the one-child policy, of course, most Chinese would prefer to have boys over girls. Therefore, boys are always treated better than girls. That is an undisputable fact! Anyway, in ancient time, the chastity of a woman was very valued. Hence, it is not too surprising to find some Neo-Confucianists completely opposing to the idea of a woman getting remarried.

Yup, the virginity and chastity of a woman was even more important to her than her own life. A woman would rather die protecting her virginity than to live on in shame of being unchaste. That is the common saying I have always heard in TV Series.

It is true the popular philosophy in the Song society could not have been evaluated by the acceptance of the people on top; however, the rulers would decide what he thought would be the best for the people. Would not people back then have to follow the rulers’ orders word by word? Hence, does not that mean the Emperor is everything?

I don’t think the example you have provided about America is a good one since modern America cannot possible be compared with ancient China ! Ancient China had a monarchial system, while modern America has a representative democracy. Of course, we cannot compare and contrast two different types of government.

Well, I do agree with you that sometimes historical records on this issue tended to be one-sided since not a lot of ancient historians took their time to record the social aspects of a government as they were much more focused on the rise and fall of dynastic cycles.

Xie Xie,

Zunjing de Nero’s Neptune,

You know, I have always been confused regarding the philosophy Neo-Confucianism. From my understandings, was not Neo-Confucianism a combination of the practices of Buddhism, Confucianism, and Daoism? In many aspects, it should have been very tolerant of a lot of things, right? Perhaps one of the reasons for the misconception(s) of Song Dynasty being the dynasty where women had the least freedom came from the misunderstanding(s) of Neo-Confucianism?

Hmm, I had no idea Neo-Confucianism was forbidden by Song Ningzong. Were there any special reasons for this prohibition since Song Ningzong was not a very good Emperor?

Whoa, Song Zhezong issued an edict reducing the proper period of mourning after the husband’s death from 27 months to just 100 days?

I surmise I really must read more about this aspect of the Song Dynasty since a lot of my assumptions were proven to be incorrect.

Another thing, did not women start to take feet binding extremely serious during the Song Dynasty or was this also a wrong assumption?

If women in the Song Dynasty did not suffer harsh discrimination, then why are there all these wrong presumptions?

Thanks for translating a segment in the passage written about Cheng Yi for everyone who is illiterate like me! Hehehehe!

Xie Xie,

I don't think the type of government is deterministic here.

Even in monarchial China of the past, what has State sponsorship and what is prevalent is not always in synch.

One good example would be "Xuanxue" in end/post 3 Kingdom era, but that's another topic. You can search for it in CHF if you are interested, I had a good discussion with Yun about it.

Zunjing de Snowybeagle Xian Sheng,

Yeah, you are right; I am not so sure if Cheng Yi knew how ridiculous he sounded with all the contradictions he made.

Based on the social structure of ancient China , I don’t think it was wrong to assume scholar-gentry, nobilities, and loyalties would have concubines. In fact, would not it have been rather odd if they did not?

Yeah, I am not too certain if there was supposed to be a distinction between taking a concubine and remarrying. First of all, what was the definition of marriage? Was marriage defined by the ceremonies and rituals the new couples had to go through before their wedding nights? If this was the case, then I can understand the difference between remarrying and taking a concubine since the number of necessary ceremonies and rituals would be reduced, if not abolished. This would probably be more of a spiritual than practical difference.

Yeah, it was pretty common for one of the concubines to be promoted to the position of wife after the death of the first wife. To a lot of the concubines, giving births to sons would really help them elevate their positions.

You are right; sometimes what is state sponsored and what is widespread does not necessarily have to go hand in hand; however, this is usually the case. I don’t think we should generalize everything; nevertheless, it is important to be aware of the norms.

Cheng Yi certainly didn't assume members of the upper class will always have concubines, what he did mean is they have the option of taking concubines, whereas commoners do not (it's both illegal and a violation of Li for commoners to take concubines).

I do not understand why you think the distinction between remarrying and taking a concubine is imaginary and carries no practical/significant difference, remarrying is taking a wife, taking a concubine is more like buying a slave.



Promoting a concubine to wife is a major violation of Li, was considered a criminal act under Tang law and would result in one year imprisonment for the 'husband'.

Where did you learn that is was illegal and a violation of Li for commoners to take concubine?


The process varied, but how significant would the practical effects be?

A widow who cannot remarry but "sells" herself as a concubine gets food, clothing and shelter as an alternative to starving to death, homeless. A woman who marries is still considered a chattel of the husband.

When I talked about imaginary differences, I refer to the fact that Cheng Yi was putting importance into protocols which can be and has been easily subverted over and above humane needs of people.

Neo-Confucianism was not a monolithic movement, but it had its beginnings in attempts by some Northern Song philosophers to overcome Confucianism's biggest disadvantages in relation to Buddhism and Daoism, namely its lack of a comprehensive cosmology (i.e. a theory about where the universe and all living things come from) and a spiritual basis to its ethics.

The eventual formula accepted by the Neo-Confucians was the concept of 'principle' (li), which can be seen as a fusion of the Buddhist doctrines of karma and dharma with the Daoist concept of qi. In the Neo-Confucian worldview, Confucian ethics are inherently rational and correct because they embody eternal and absolute principles that existed since the beginning of the universe. Buddhist and Daoist ethics, on the other hand, are violations of these eternal principles, and therefore should be rejected and condemned.

You can imagine that this worldview made Neo-Confucians more prone to absolutism and intolerance, because they could not condone any practice or custom that seemed to be contrary to principle. Confucian ethics became less open to compromise and ambiguity than before; in a sense they became fundamentalist. The ethics of remarriage also became increasingly rigid under the influence of Neo-Confucianism; whereas there used to be a range of possible responses that widows and their families could have toward the question of remarriage, now there was only the stark choice between following the absolute principle of widow chastity, or suffering the contempt of the entire community.

A common phrase fo rmale commoners in Chinese is Pi Fu (匹夫) , which means a man who can have one wife but no concubine. For Classic sources, Shang Shu （《尚书》), "士大夫已上，则有妾媵；庶人无妾媵，惟夫妻相匹。" ("Scholar-gentry and above has concubines. Commoner has no concubine, only the husband and wife to match", I ignored the difference between 妾 and 媵 in the translation and called them both concubine). Zuo Zhuan (《左传· 昭公十一年》疏) "庶人匹夫匹妇，不得有妾。”(Each commoner only has a wife to match, having concubine is not allowed). I'm sure you can find something in Li Ji (《礼记》) too.

As for the legal side, Wei Shu (《 魏书·临淮王传》)“《晋令》：诸王置妾八人；郡君、侯，妾六人。《官品令》：第一、第二品有四妾；第三、第四有三妾；第五、第六有二妾；第七、第八有一妾。“ . Since the Jin law regarding to taking concubine was part of the law regulating government officials and the lowest level of official was only allowed to have one concubine, it's clear commoners are not allowed to take concubine. Jin Shi (《金史》) recorded an edict to allow coommoners take concubine ("己丑，命庶官许求次室二人，百姓亦许置妾。"), which means before the edict commoners could not have concubine. The Ming dynasty law was the first to allow commoners to take concubine, although it's under the strict condition that the man is above 40 years of age and still have no son (《明律》:“庶人于年四十以上无子者，许选娶一妾。”). Qing was the first and only that do not place any restriction on taking concubines.



Then what you were criticize was not just Cheng Yi but most normative systems of ethcis.

Not necessarily. There were many philosophers throughout China's history who did not emphasise protocols over and above the humane needs of people.

It should not be assumed what Cheng Yi's views was representative of normative system of ethics of the his era. (Refer to Yun's reply in this thread earlier). In fact, going what Yun's account, the Neo-Confucianists could be considered an extremist group, somewhat akin to how the "Christian Right" is like in America - vocal, prominent, but hardly representative of the popular views.

Throughout the history of China, many widows had remarried, out of economic necessity or otherwise, and condemnation of the practice only came from a segment of society rather the whole. A rather small segment I might add, ironically, composed of mainly men who were supposed to be educated.

Well, during the Qing at least, widow remarriage was only illegal during the mourning period, and if Matthew Sommer is right, Chinese officials did not enforce the ban on widow remarriage because they realized that those women did it out of economic necessity. So while they might have complained about it, they did not punish them for it.

Yes, they used the opposite strategy and gave great prestige to chaste widows, including building memorial arches for them in their hometowns. The government realized that the most effective way to police morality was not through the law, but through family pressure. Families keen on gaining the social prestige that an officially-recognized chaste widow would bring to them would tend to see to it that the widow (who would be the daughter-in-law in the family) did not remarry.

There was a sort of understanding in which widows with children should remain single and take care of the children, rather than let these children have to recognize another man as their father. To do otherwise was considered a grave breach of the ancestral cult. Widows without children, on the other hand, were freer to remarry.

Yea, I actually found it pretty interesting that widow's had the right not to remarry, and anyone, even if it was their own parents, forced them to remarry then they would be punished for it. They even had the right to their husband's assets. Of course, like the rape laws, this was dependent on the woman's chastity and if a widow failed to live up to the chastity ideal then her right to her husband's assets would be revoked and she could be married off by her husband's family.

I guess that makes sense because the only reason why she was allowed to control her husband's assets was if she dedicated her life to preserving his family line and if she had an affair then that conflicts with that.

I am sharing some definitions of terms to shed light on differences in the historical contexts between wives and concubines.
Read this is some other websites and hence I have no primary sources to back it up.

These terms refer to the terms of processes/procedures applicable to members of nobility.

聘 pìn (betrothed) : this is the formal betrothal procedure, negotiated between families of similar or close social standings. Betrothal gifts and dowries were exchanged and the bride would become the "wife" (妻/夫人).



纳 nà (tribute) : this is the term for acquiring a concubine from females in the aftermath of a successful military expedition. The females would be selected from among the defeated nobles' families, carted off as war captives but still treated with respect due to their aristocratic backgrounds. They would become concubines (姬/妾). Some well-known examples would be Da Ji (妲己) from Shang Dynasty.


嬖 bì (favoured) : this referred to what happened when a noble took fancy on a female slave in his household. These slaves might have been from a fallen noble family, punished into slavery for some crimes. Her status would be the lowest among the nobles' harem, known as "favoured one" (嬖人). It was considered most improper to elevate her to the position of a wife, at least among those who held themselves as being noble - kind of like making the babysitter a wife.


妾 qiè : As mentioned by Nero's Neptune, this one was acquired to purchase. A price was paid to her family or a go-between. Her status would be low, and during pre-Qin era, she risked being made to "accompany" her husband in his death.



烝 zhēng : This was something new I learned. During the Eastern Zhou era, an heir succeeding a feudal lord's property might also inherit some of the harem of his father.

as a freshman here ,i really appreciate your attitudes toward chinese history.Franctly speaking ,i am amazing at your posts ,your work,even your debits.
Remarriage is a serious question in china all the time in china,i mean ,not only in Han Dynasty.However,it is not considered as important as it was done nowsdays just before Han Dynasty in which Confucius was remembered in the history as St.Cong...

Later in Chinese history, this term was still used to refer to a new ruler taking his late father's empress and/or concubines as his own. E.g., what Yang Guang did with Concubines Chen and Cai.

When did this happen? I thought there were laws against this? Or at the very least strongly discouraged.

Yes, it was considered immoral in Confucian ethics. However, it was a common practice among nomadic peoples (it is often known as levirate marriage in English) for sons to marry their widowed stepmothers. We have cases of levirate practiced by rulers in Xiongnu-ruled and Xianbi-ruled regimes during the Age of Fragmentation, as well as among the Rouran. Also in the famous cases of Yang Guang and Li Zhi (Tang Gaozong). This has led many scholars to infer that the various cases of incest in the Sui and Tang were results of Xianbi values persisting among the imperial clans. However, I have my doubts about this. There were infamous cases of incest by rulers in the Southern Dynasties too, and no one would claim they were following Xianbi customs.

Zunjing de Nero’s Neptune,

What! I have never heard of only the upper class have the option of taking in concubines, while it would be a violation of Li for commoners to also take in concubines. From my understanding, as long as they could afford it, taking in concubines would never be a problem, even for commoners.

Yeah, you are right regarding remarrying and taking in concubines being two different things for obvious reasons. It would suck for concubines who had been serving their husband for so long, yet would still have to be submissive to the younger second wife, who had not been with their husband for as long. The wedding ceremony for marrying a wife was usually very formal and elaborate. However, taking in a concubine was just a little more than buying a slave.

OK, now this is where I am completely lost! When did it become illegal to promote a concubine to the status of wife? Of course, this would be ridiculous if the first wife did not make any fatal mistakes. However, I am pretty sure a man can promote his favorite concubine to the position of wife if his first wife had already passed away due to illness. In fact, the same procedure would probably work for the Imperial harem structure. If the Empress passed away, then the Emperor would more likely promote his favorite Gui Fei, who also gave birth to a prince, to the position of Empress. I think this was better than actually taking a completely different second wife. The concubine would already know the family rules and what was expected of everyone; hence, when she become the wife, she would be up for the jobs.

Xie Xie,

Zunjing de Yun the Sage-King,

Thank you very much for your explanations; I can now sort of tell the difference between Confucianism and Neo-Confucianism!

You are right; one of the biggest disadvantages Confucianism have over Daoism and Buddhism would be the lack of cosmological theories. In fact, this was the main reason why some people don’t consider Confucianism as a religion, but more of just a teaching.

So, according to Neo-Confucianism, Confucian ethics are only inherently rational because they had existed since the beginning of the universe? Basically, because the ethics were there at the beginning, the ethics themselves are indeed legitimate. This does not really make much sense to me since it seems to be quite bias. Why were Buddhist and Daoist ethics violations to the eternal principles of Confucianism? It really seems to me that these three philosophies can be compromise since they all have a lot in common.

Yeah, by disregarding some of the Buddhist and Daoist principles, of course, Neo-Confucianism was getting to the extreme level. Neo-Confucianism indeed did not leave room for much compromises; hence, there seems to be only one rigid answer rather than having a variety range of solutions.

Xie Xie,

Zunjing de Nero’s Neptune,

Hmm, this is very interesting. Since China is a male dominated society, I have always assumed it is legal, if not mandatory, for men to have only one wife, but many concubines. It is true that I have read about some commoners not having concubines; however, I have always thought this was only because they did not have enough money to support concubines rather than it being illegal.

So, in the Jin Dynasty, the lowest level of officials were only allowed to have one concubine?

Hmm, I had no idea the Ming Dynasty was the first to permit commoners to have concubines. It was pretty funny that commoners were only allowed to take in concubines if they were 40 years old men without sons to carry on the surnames.

Hmm, why did the Qing Dynasty not follow the regulations of previous dynasties in placing restrictions on commoners taking in concubines? Could it be because of Qing’s nomadic background?

Xie Xie,

Zunjing de Mynheer Peeperkorn,

Hmm, I believe remarriages during mourning periods would be illegal for all dynasties, and not just in the Qing Dynasty. In fact, even men were not encouraged to remarry during the mourning periods of their wives.

So, you are saying it was not illegal for women to remarry in the Qing Dynasty; however, it would still be looked down upon? I thought the Qing Dynasty would be much more tolerant of remarriages for widows since they had a nomadic background. Or were they just too assimilated to the Han customs to retain some of their own cultures?

Xie Xie,

Zunjing de Snowybeagle Xian Sheng,

Thank you so much for sharing some definitions of terms since they can be useful. However, it would be even better if you can indicate which dynasty produced these terms and how they were modified by future dynasties. Or were these terms generally acknowledged by all dynasties to a certain extent?

Yeah, it is obvious that a man can only have one official wife at a time during his lifetime.

na (tribute) – I have seen some dramas and have read some books depicting taking in concubines from the defeated enemies after successful military expeditions. However, I am not too sure if this was really a good idea since some of the most evil women, who were responsible for the decline of the state, came from being given as tributes to the victors from the losers. Da Ji of Shang Dynasty was only one of the numerous examples.

I surmise since there is a hierarchy to everything, it was very reasonable to also have various ranking concubines. In the feudal system, the status received at birth was extremely crucial as it would determine the position in the future.

I don’t really understand the difference between bi (favoured) and qie? Were not they both being purchased anyway? Hence, I don’t know how to differential between them.

Whoa, I am totally shocked to hear about an heir succeeding a feudal lord to possibly also inherit his father’s harem in the Eastern Zhou era! I mean this was not incest; however, it was absolutely against Confucian morals. I have always assumed Eastern Zhou era to be heavily influenced by Confucianism. Or have I been living under the wrong assumption since Confucianism only became the state’s philosophy during the reign of Han Wudi?

Yes, I know it was a common practice among the nomads to have stepsons marrying their stepmothers and brothers marrying their deceased brothers’ wives. I surmise this practice came with the intention of firming up good relationships for the future. However, I don’t think the Eastern Zhou were nomads; hence, they probably would not be following this practice.

Xie Xie,

Zunjing de Yun the Sage-King,

Hmm, it is interesting to note how the Qing Dynasty used the opposite method in sort of preventing widows’ remarriages by giving great prestige to not only chaste widows, but also their entire family rather than resorting to punishments for widows who remarried. By building memorial arches in the widows’ hometowns, the fame and pride would spread out to many other people. Of course, people would much prefer to live in a town known for having many loyal widows. I surmise the Qing Dynasty finally realized that you catch bees with honey, not vinegar.

I completely agree that the best way to preserve morality was not to impose harsh laws, but to put pressure on people for the possibilities of gaining more fame and prestige!

Of course, it would be much easier for widows without children to remarry since they really have no other obligations or links to their husbands’ families. However, if they had children, then remarriages would be very complicated. I surmise some women can just remarry and leave their children at their parents-in-law’s home since they share the same surnames; however, I highly doubt if some women would do that.

Zunjing de Yun the Sage-King,

Hmm, I surmise every culture has its own culture and that would be one of the reasons why Han Chinese were so against foreign dominations. For pure Han Chinese, of course, marrying your widowed stepmother would be a direct violation to Confucian values. However, one must not forget China has always been a multi-ethnic Empire.

Yes, the nomads followed the practice of levirate marriages. One notable example would revolve around one of the four great beauties, Wang Zhaojun. She was given as a political bride by the Han Emperor to the Xiong Nu chieftain to secure peace and stability for both countries. When her husband died, Wang Zhaojun was forced to marry her stepson according to the Xiong Nu custom. She would later have two daughters from her second marriage. Of course, she was bounded by Han customs; however, she must follow the practice of the Xiong Nu since she had already been married into a different family.

I believe the cases regarding Sui Yangdi and Tang Gaozong were something very different. I mean they were Emperors after all; hence, they have absolute power to do whatever they wished. Of course, Emperors still had their boundaries; however, strong Emperors could easily break the rules. In Tang Gaozong’s case, his strong wife, Wu Zetian, virtually became the rule breaker.

It is certainly not wrong to assume any sort of levirate marriages would be influenced by nomadic values for obvious reasons. However, historians must never live under any assumption!

If you haven't already read it you might find my review of an article written by Matthew Sommer interesting because it deals with polyandry being practiced during the Qing. Of course, polyandry was definitely illegal, but i think that the disparity between legal, sanctioned, and accepted practices and actual 'marriage' practices quite interesting. I still have the book so i can type up a few of his examples if anyone is interested.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=14781



Oh, I am sure that is the case as well. I only had information about the Qing so that is why i limited to that.

Yes, it was not illegal for women to remarry after the morning period, but it was still looked down upon because it went against the ideals of the cult of chastity, and it was during the Qing dynasty that the cult of chastity reached its height of popularity. Women were believed chaste if they remained widows and looked after her in-laws and children to help preserve the male line. In fact, the Yongzheng emperor declared that commoners could now be considered chaste wifes since it was previously limited to just the elite, and that during this and later periods there was a massive explosion in the building of memorial arches for chaste women.

Concerning assimiliation, i have yet to read these books yet, but authors like Crossley, Elliot and Rawski have dealt with that topic quite extensivily. Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that they all claimed that the Emperor and manchus were able to keep their own identity and actually created one during the Qing. I believe Elliot claimed that the banner system was the vehicle for manchu identity creation and continuation. Crossley claims that it was the actions taken by the Qianlong emperor that created a lasting manchu identity. I am not exactly sure what those actions were so if someone could give me a brief explanation i would be grateful. I'm not sure what Rawski proposed.

Zunjing de Mynheer Peeperkorn,

Well, I do find this topic pretty interesting, and I have also noticed your summary of the article; however, I have not thoroughly read your work yet since I am still looking for the definition of polyandry. It is pretty strange that I have not been able to find the definition(s) to this word since I have already looked in several dictionaries, but to no avail. Since you have summarized an article on this topic, perhaps you can provide a good definition of “polyandry?” I initially did not think this was an important aspect of ancient life; however, after reading some posts in here, I have found this to be quite interesting as well. Since you have a book regarding this issue, I would really appreciate it if you can type up a few examples, so that we would all know for sure exactly what you are talking about. Thanks ahead!

Was the subject of polyandry more popular during the Qing Dynasty? I am just wondering if this was the case since you have written something about polyandry in the Qing Dynasty, while not mentioning how the same idea was practiced during other preceding dynasties.

Yeah, it was obvious that women were freer to remarry after the mourning period; however, it was still highly discouraged. I never expect the cult of chastity to reach its height during the Qing Dynasty since it was ruled by the Manchurians. I have always assumed women would receive more freedom under the Qing Dynasty because it was of nomadic origin. Was I really wrong?

Well, the definition of chastity probably meant to always remain loyal to your husband whether he was dead or alive.

Hmm, I surmise Emperor Yong Zheng certainly helped encouraged the practice of remaining chaste by not limiting it to just aristocrats. Of course, buildings of memorial arches for chaste women would definitely attract them more than resorting to punishments for not following the unwritten rules.

Thanks for giving me the names of authors who have written numerous information on the Manchu assimilation; I will definitely check it out as soon as possible. Well, even though the Manchurians did a wonderful job with fitting into their new environment, they certainly retained many aspects of their cultures and kept their identity. One prime example of this would be making the Han Chinese adopt the Manchurian hairstyle. Yes, the eight banners system was the fundamental principles for the Manchu identity, and foundation as well as many other things since it was unqiue to the Qing Dynasty. When the empire started to conquer more territories, both the Mongolian and the Chinese eight banners system were implemented. Hmm, I am also wondering what actions were taken by Emperor Qian Long to create a strong and lasting Manchu identity. Can you please direct me to some relevant sources?

Xie Xie,

Women remarrying with children was not that uncommon. It's common enough to warrant a major debate in Song court (not sure under which emperor but I think it's Shen Zong) on how should a man mourn his mother if she's remarried in life. The final conclusion was a man should mourn his mother in exactly the same way regardless whether his mother had remarried.

Many prominent figures in Chinese history had took on their step-father's family name in eariler period of their lives. Song dynasty's Fan Zhongyan and Ming's Shen Shixing came to mind first but there're countless others.

Wow, sorry about not seeing your post for so long. Hopefully you are still interested in the topic after all this time.

Polyandry is the opposite of polygmy, so it is a situation where a women has more than one husband. Sadly, i do not have the book anymore, but i can remember one example. The husband became very sick and could not support the family, so in order to provide for the family he asked a single man who had no hope of becoming married through normal means. In repayment of providing for his family the new guy would get free access to his wife and be treated like a normal member of his family.

Sommer only mentions the practice of polyandry during the Qing dynasty so i don't know if it was apparent in other dynasties, but due to the social conditions of the 19th century, it makes sense that Polyandry appeared in the Qing.

Well, one benefit of the cult of chastity was that if women remained chaste to their dead husbands they could control his property. Of course, only wealthy women could do this because many women needed to remarry in order to provide for themselves.

For books on Manchu identity

This book stresses the banner system in forming identity

The Manchu Way: The Eight Banners and Ethnic Identity in Late Imperial China by Mark Elliott

This books stresses the actions taken by the Qianlong emperor

A Translucent Mirror: History and Identity in Qing Imperial Ideology by Pamela Kyle Crossley

I believe that this book stresses rituals, practices, etc in forming identity

The Last Emperors: A Social History of Qing Imperial Institutions by Evelyn S. Rawski