MAIN PAGE ON CHINESE WEAPONS:
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/cn.article.htm

BRONZE WEAPONS (2 pages):
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/cn.bronzeweapons.htm

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/cn.bronzeweapons1.htm


CHINA - FROM BRONZE TO STEEL:
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/bronzetosteel.htm


STEEL SWORDS:
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/cn.steelswords.htm

awesome.

I guess after han dynasty at home point people realized it's more comfortable to have handles not made completely of iron

Fine! I am to spend a lot of time looking through it!

Thanks a lot for such beautiful info!

"Again, originated by the incessant search for further perfection of swords that could be extremely flexible, resistant and sharp, Longquan smiths created different pattern names corresponding to the folded steel appearances.

- Light clouds and rising sun
- Pine tree festival
- Phoenix feather
- Lotus and twin streams
- Spring, rocks and clouds.
- Large waves."


are there visual examples of these patterns?

Very nice. Shame the number of Chinese swords on display is so limited compared to those of Korea, Japan and SE Asia.

Is it a sample of liuyedao?

How can we determine the date of this blade?

That is a normal yaodao.

As far as I know, yaodao is only generic term for edged weapon to wear on the belt (like peidao?). Is yaodao specific term or generic term? All Chinese sabers were intended for belt wearing. So how could we divide them?

You are very possibility correct. Yaodao/Peidao is the generic term of most swords, but it isn't just that.

However, swords like this has no definitive sources to say that they are any specific types of swords. There are conflicting evidence as they are referred to as different things, sometimes even during the same era. This kind of thin-blade, curved swords are the most predominant of Qing era swords for the military. As far as primary sources such as those of military manuals, repair factory records, etc are concerned, alot calls it the Liuyaodao, but just as many calls it something else yet most commonly though they are just refered to as Yaodao. It is highly possible that the Yaodao/Peidao was a sword type and a generic term for a classification of swords. An example of thise would be like the Dadao. While it in itself is a sword type, it is also a generic term for all long-handled daos such as the Yanyuedao and Xiangbidao.

This is part of the problem of the chinese language which is a application based language rather than a definition based language. A word/term can have one single definitive as well as a generalized mean which can often cause a great deal of confusion.


Acutally, now that I come to think about it, the level of curveness on that sword makes it probably a yanlingdao

* Liuyaodao

Don't you mean liuyedao?

* yanlingdao

As far as I know, yanlingdao is the term of modern collectors of Chinese edged weapon.

* repair factory records

Could you provide an example of such records in Chinese to look through?

Yes, my bad

No, they are a swordtype



Not without significant trouble that I prefer not to go through. I did my research on this around a decade ago in libraries all over the world. I am sure I record them down somewhere but since that time I have moved houses twice and alot of my not-commonly-used notes are all in boxes of which I never bothered to reopen.

When could we see such a term in sources? XVII or XVIII-XIX centuries? If possible, give an example of original usage of such a term.



I hope if you come on such a box you won't forget me

Is it right that we have 4 main types of Chinese blades:

1) yanmaodao (officially used)
2) liuyedao (officially used)
3) piandao (rare type with significant curvature of the blade)
4) niuweidao (non-officially used)?

No. China is not like japan where you can actually put things in like managable boxes like that. The sword variety are so vast, no one including myself can confidently say we have them all listed out. The only 'main' sword type would be the yaodao/peidao. There are those who use the avaliable data and draw gross generalized conclusions and market them as 'historical truths'. Because of the effects of the cultural revolution, we can't say with certainty that the conclusions we draw are truely sound because what we actually processing are but scraps and shadows of what there once was. Major gaps of critical primary materials is lacking for us to draw a strong case. The difference between many of the so called 'experts' and myself is that I acknowledge that due to the awfully limited amount of primary sources (relative to such a vast empire), there is actually a great deal of educated guesswork involved.

And I would like to point out that from my own finding, it is the liuyedao that was never used in the military.


AHH, sorry, did I say Yanlingdao ? No, that isn't a Yanlingdao. I suspect it is a piandao.
I can recall from the top of my head that there is actually mentioned briefly somewhere that the Yanlingdao have been around since the Song dynasty. I just can't remember where it was from.

I am buffled as there are almost no sources in Chinese for 1650-s, when the first clashes between Russians and Manchus occured in the valley of Amur. I had a modern Chinese account of one of the most significant battles of this period (24.03.1652 by Julian calendar) near Achansk fortress. It is based completely upon Russian documents of XVII century. So it made me sad.

But I hope a lot of unique documents are in the First Chinese Archive Foundation (according to the modern Chinese materials, there are several millions of Qing era docs which are not even sorted by themes).

Then according to the Philip Tom and Scott Roddel, liuyedao substituted yanmaodao in the midst of XVIII. Niuweidao is unofficial weapon of rebels, but liuyedao is quite official issue (see Seven Stars site for beautiful sample of a liuyedao which belonged to a Qing officer in XVIII).

And regarding the piandao - does this degree of curvativeness exceed the curvature of liuyedao?

Could you attach an image of Yanlingdao?

As it has been shown before on this forum, the findings of my research concluded that the names of those swords does not agree with those of PT and SR. SR has never really revealled the data behind his research but considering how little actually survived to this day to be studied, Iam pretty certain we use more or less the same primary sources. We just happen arrive to different conclusions.

Also the Liuyedao (which PT and SR classify as the neiweidao, their classification system I don't agree to) was not 'unofficial weapon of rebels'. That is another example as to why I never trust their word on anything as they really like to take small stuff and overblow them to an unwarrented status, completely distorting history in the process. It was a sword that was common among civilians. That sword for used for everything from mercenaries, dueling, practicing, heck for all we know they can be cutting up steamed buns with it. The fact that peasent rebellions involves mostly civilians wielding their own weapons does not make it a legitimized rebel's weapon. It is like saying that the rebels eats rice, therefore it is the "unofficial food for rebels." If a man murders his wife with a fruit knife, does that make it a 'unofficial weapon for wife-murderer" ?

The Yaodao was not also exclusively used by government either. There are a number which I examined to be rather mediocre made with no tunkou/daoe leading me to be believe they were actually civilian productions. Thus, that sword design was actually shared by government and civilians a like. It is true though, I have never came across a Liuyedao that was made on the quality level as military Yaodao.

If possible please give me results of your research in soft copy.

Then PT and SR said that Liuyedao was a weapon of army but niuweidao was the un-official weapon (not rebel weapon).

What is the proper hieroglyps for tunkou and daoe?

And another question - when the Nandao appeared first? And what kind of weapon was the standard belt weapon of Qing civilian officers?

As far as I know, the Nandao is not a specific weapon in itself, but rather a broad term applied over a range of blades.

The Liuyedao was a civilian weapon, no an 'unofficial' weapon. The Yaodao was a weapon more common for those who are wealthy and within the military ranks, but not exclusive.

The chinese characters of them are 吞口 and 刀顎


The earliest one I have ever had the oppotunity to examin (from a private collector in HK) was from the late qing or the early republic. As far as I can detemine, if it was during the qing, it would certainly have been during it's final years. There are no 'standard' as far can I can see that is empire-wide. But there are stand ones for specific military branches such as the garrison as certain places. The Yaodao was certainly the most common sidearm for most military corps.


That is also one of my theories. But I also believe that it is one of those terms that serves both as a generic term by definition and a specific name by application. I have found no books during the Qing dynasty that actually speficially desribes what we call Nandao today. But considering the relatively 'youth' of this sword design, it seems understanding. The cultural revolution probably destroyed any definitive proof to confirm or overturn any conclusions we make here.

I am looking forward to reading the catalogue which is due to come out soon.

Am rather embarrassed to say that, inspired by this thread, I actually went to the Macao art museum several days ago thinking that the exhibition is still on. But alas no.