There are some unconfirmed claims that Dr. Sun Yat-sen was of Hakka origin, but his granddaughter has said that her father (Sun Ke, former KMT leader) has always maintained that their family was Cantonese and not Hakka.

Dr. Sun himself would not really care because a Cantonese, Hakka, Sichuanese, Beijingnese, Zhuang, Inner Mongolian, etc. are all part of his family, THE CHINESE FAMILY.

But, we still need to separate fact from fiction:

http://www.asiawind.com/pub/forum/fhakka/m...c/msg00797.html

Shocking revelation by Dr Sun Yatsen's granddaughter

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: <fhakka@asiawind.com>
Subject: Shocking revelation by Dr Sun Yatsen's granddaughter
From: "Dixie" <Dixie@singnet.com.sg>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 19:04:57 +0800
Reply-To: <@singnet.com.ofcmail>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recently, Dr Sun Yatsen's granddaughter, who is based in US, was in
Singapore to launch her book, "My Grandfather - Dr Sun Yatsen". There was
this report in the local Chinese newspapers:

Although not mention in her book, she was asked by one of the reporters
whether Dr Sun is a Hakka or a Cantonese. She replied that her father (Dr
Sun's son), Sun Ke, has told her before that they are Cantonese, not Hakka.
The newspapers article also mentioned that previously, evidence in China
and interviews with the Sun's family members have confirmed that Dr Sun is
a Hakka.

This is indeed shocking! Could she be wrong or the historical
records/evidence have been wrong?
Some little information that I have about Dr Sun:

i. Dr Sun came from Tsuiheng village in Zhongshan county and the name of
the village (by the name of it) clearly show that it is a Hakka village as
all the Hakka villages were named in a certain way
ii. Dr Sun speak fluent Hakka
iii. a prominent official (cannot remember his name) in the Republican era
mentioned that Dr Sun would always use Hakka to communicate with his Hakka
comrades in the Republican administration, saying that Dr Sun did not
forget his roots even after forming the Republican government
Other Hakka leaders did not speak Hakka too.

Eg. Deng Xiaoping spoke the Sichuan dialect
Lee Tenghui spoke the Min dialect
Lee Kuan Yew spoke English and Malay
Song Chingling spoke Shanghaiese and Hainanese?

It is also more likely that a Hakka learn and master the Cantonese dialect
than the other way round, as shown in many areas/countries.
If you folks have more information on this area, please provide your input
here.

- Dixie

http://www.asiawind.com/pub/forum/fhakka/m...c/msg00801.html

Is Sun Yatsen Hakka?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: fhakka@asiawind.com
Subject: Is Sun Yatsen Hakka?
From: 96981339r@polyu.edu.hk (cflau)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 08:56:46 +0800

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Dixie,

There is a study report on "Were the Sun of Cuiheng Village Hakka?" by Lin
Jiayou, presented to the Second International Conference on Hakkaology,
1994. The article is collected in the Proceeding of the Conference. The
whole article is in Chinese, but there is an English summary (p.827 of the
Proceeding):

There has been considerable discussion on the question of whether the Sun
of Cuiheng village were Hakka. In the 1930s, the idea that Sun Yatsen was a
Hakka was first put forward. In 1942, a paper titled "A Textual Criticism on
the origin of Sun Yatsen's Lineage', Luo Xianglin proved that Sun Yatsen's
ancestral home was Zijin, and more people came to accept the idea that he
was a Hakka. But other scholars argued against this idea. The present paper
examines the value of the argument on the basis of an investigation into the
language, customs and the place of origin of the people in the Cuiheng area.
It examines the ideas of both those who affirm that Sun Yatsen was a Hakka
and those who deny it, as well as the history and current condition of the
people of Cuiheng. On the basis of these investigations, it becomes clear
that the ancestor of Sun Yatsen were not among the Hakka removed from Zijin
in the early Qing (Dynasty). It remains an open question whether the
ancestor in the Ming were Hakka."

Mr. Lin Jiayou is also Hakka, but he found that none of the villager in
Cuiheng speaks Hakka. However, almost all the villages around it are
speaking Hakka, leaving Cuiheng a "Cantonese dialect island". The
relationship between the two dialect groups are said to be not too bad. The
Sun's in Cuiheng also deny their "Zijin origin", but claim a "Dongguan
Origin", insisting that they are Cantonese. Therefore, Mr. Lin concluded
that the notion of Zijin origin is not so credible, but he added that it is
not important for Dr. Sun to be a famous man whether he is Hakka or not.

Remember that the name "Hakka" in the Pearl River Delta always means
"intruders" and even "barbarian" in the eye of the Cantonese, who name
themselves Punti (Bendi, or natives). Therefore, if the Suns came to
Zhongshan before the wave of migration at the beginning of the Qing Dynasty,
they may have been assimilated and considered themselves native, even their
ancestor spoke the Hakka dialect.

I hope this article can help you. If you are interested in the article,
please tell me your mailing address.

Liu zinfad

it is an old topic. Some Hakkas stated that maybe she was ashamed of the Hakka origin.

there's always the possibility of being "Guangdong Ke" (Cantonese Hakka) or Fujian Ke (Fujianese Hakka) that being absorbed into Cantonese mainstream.
after 20-30 generations (1500 years) of Zhong-yuan ren great migration during the
North South Dynasty, that's when we come to settle in Fujian, our surname also
traced back to Henan 450 AD.
not surprisingly, many new generation of overseas Hakka also identify themselves as Cantonese.

^There are many Cantonese who also share the same "zupu" (geneological family books) and many of them also trace back to Henan and Shanxi. I really think that Cantonese and Hakka came south at the same time. They probably spoke the same language and were the same type of refugee during Tang Dynasty. The Cantonese went further south into Guangdong first before the Hakka. The Hakka remained in the Fujian/Jiangxi area before moving down to Guangdong during Ming Dynasty.

In Wikipedia, they have listed Dr. Sun as a Hakka without looking into all the facts. I really think it should be edited so as people do not get misinformed.

There still are living relatives of Dr. Sun in Zhongsan, Guangdong, Hong Kong and Hawaii who can tell you they are pure Cantonese.

Luckily you can change it on Wikipedia. :> lol

and in Southern California

Is Sun Yat Sen Cantonese or Hakka from Zhongshan? It is for sure that his children are Hakka because he married a Hakka(his wife).

Merged into an older thread that degenerated into brainless bickering in 2005. Brainless bickering now deleted.

IMO, officially DR. Sun is of Hakka ethnicity unofficially he is Cantonese. It is like Columbu sis the official recognized explorer who discover America although unofficially the Vikings and Zhen He were noted to have reach America before Columbus.

I read some internet site that "Sun Yat Sen was born into a Hakka family" and it claimed that Sun Yat Sen was a hakka.

But as you may well read some historical sources, Sun Yat Sen was born into Cuiheng village 翠亨村 at Xiangshan county (Guangzhou/Canton prefecture) at Guangdong province. He spoke predominantly Cantonese and his name "Sun Yat Sen" is 'cantonese' and not 'hakka'. He once said that his dialect was cantonese in his speech " 予途遇之华人既稔予为粤人，始以粤语与予相酬答，且语且行，步履颇舒缓。". This could highly suggest that he's cantonese.

What do you think? Is Sun Yat Sen a cantonese or hakka?

This site sheds some light on the issue...

http://www.asiawind.com/pub/forum/fhakka/m...c/msg00801.html


Also, his ancestry may be Hakka, but if he grew up in a predominantly Cantonese environment, of course Cantonese will probably be his first language, over Hakka and he may indeed identify himself as Cantonese. For example, Chinese who are born in the U.S. wouldn't necessarily speak Chinese nor would they necessarily identify with being Chinese if they grow up in a non-Chinese environment. Taking that to a smaller scale of Cantonese vs. Hakka, and you have a similar situation (although both in this case would be Chinese).

Being Chinese in a US environment is quite different than being Hakka in a Cantonese environment. Chinese culture and US culture are very far apart and the language is completely different from each other. Cantonese and Hakka, on the other hand, are both from Hua Xia Han culture with same value systems, history, ethnicity, written language. The main difference here is only the spoken language, so why is the need to have separate id nowadays?

The term Hakka is a rather modern invention that the Cantonese use to call new immigrant to Guangdong in 19th Century. Before that, there is no such term as Hakka for Northern immigrant to southern China. Cantonese and Kejia are both migrant from the north and the two groups share the same geneology book - Jiapu of ancestral homeland and migration route? Somehow, the Hakka identity was formed during this period in 19th C and subsequent re-migration of Kejia groups from GD to other provinces such as Fujian, Guanxi, Jiangxi and Sichuan.

So is it important to know which group of Han Chinese Sun Zhongshan was classified under despite the fact that his ancestor is clearly migrant from the north to Yue in the south? It seems as this issue is blown into bigger proportion mainly from the perspective of overseas Chinese who, being in foreign land, has always desired to learn more about their own identity. To the Chinese from mainland, he would be known as Chinese from Guangdong.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...p;hl=sun+yatsen

Sun Yatsen's own granddaughter states that they are Cantonese. And I think that's a fact; not because she is ashamed of being a Hakka as AhMan suggests.

Good point.

I think there is a dangerous trend among some Hakka people to claim credit for all the renowned people in the world.

There is a need to point out that Hakka was a terminology designating newcomers versus local 'residents'. However, the new and old concepts were relative. So to say that the people who migrated in Song Dynasty time was 'guest' in the eyes of those migrants who came to southern China in Tang Dynasty time. Then people who came in Ming Dynasty was new to those before them.

i'm glad the General found that quote =) I was not sure either if he was cantonese or hakka, but i remember reading from some article - as someone also previously stated - that his grand daughter mentioned that his father was not hakka but Cantonese because the village that Dr. Sun Yat Sen originated from was a Cantonese speaking one, but surrounded by Hakka speaking villages in Xiangshan (now known as Zhongshan County). It is possible, since Hakka at that time did not wanted to be assimilated and also wanted to retain their hakka culture and dialect, therefore there was not much inter-mixing going on between the 2 Han Chinese groups. As a result, there was the Punti-Hakka war that occured in Guangdong(in the mid-1800s) and also similar ones in Fujian and Taiwan. The thing is many of these Han Chinese that arrived in Guangdong during the Ming-Qing dynasty period, that we now call them Hakkas speak a similar dialect, but there are different variations of Hakka. A hakka from Fujian or Sichuan or Guangdong might not speak the same Hakka dialect, but may understand each other fairly. It's the dialect and their distinct chinese culture that makes them a dinstict Han group and migration period doesn't =/

IMO The Song dynasty period Han migrants actually assimilated to the local Hans - whom most settled during the Tang dynasty. These Hans who settled during the Song dynasty period were probably Han Chinese who originated from Zhejiang which Wu culture and dialect somewhat contributed to Cantonese culture and dialect. Example: Cantonese opera was based on Zhejiang opera and many cantonese dialects contain some vocabulary similar to Wu - example Gu Gu (in Kaiping Cantonese) = Big brother, Dai Ga (in Standard Cantonese - Guangzhou variant) = every one, Sui (Taishanese and Kaiping Cantonese) = water, Mi Gok (Taishanese and Kaiping Cantonese) = United States and so on. Hakkas actually migrated to guangdong around the 1600 - 1800 period. It's for sure Hakka and Cantonese share a common origin and ancestry because both share alot of common vocabulary that originated from Middle Chinese.

what is Hakka? never heard of it.

Hakka is one of the subgroups of Han-chinese, in which their dialect is known as "Hakka" ("Kejia 客家"). Hakka dialect is one of the 7 major chinese dialects in China.

In China, the Hakka people lived predominantly in north of Guangdong province (South China) in the region of Meixian or in the south of Fujian province. There were relatively large number of Hakka in Taiwan and Hongkong as well as countries outside China such as Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, US etc.

History had it that the Hakka were originally from the north, but they later migrated to South. For more info, refer to http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=17945

You can also refer to Asiawind (a hakka site) at
http://www.asiawind.com/hakka/

I actually don't get what you mean here. Why do you think those words are influenced by Wu? What would they have sounded like before that? As far as I know, Sui or Shui sound with the variants of inflections is the common Chinese word for water. The rest are also slight variants of the Cantonese spoken in Hong Kong and Hakka (at least my variant) also says Tai Ka (Dai Ga with a slight difference in inflection). So, I don't actually see how you came to that conclusion. Is it from an article or just something you believe? Thanks.

If Sun Yat Sen's grand daughter says that they aren't Hakka then they aren't Hakka. Us Hakkas don't accept them as well, in that case.

Seriously, facts are lost in time. If they are unverifiable, I'd rather not lay claim to them. Until some scholar comes up with unrefutable proof, I'll just assume that Sun Yat Sen was a Cantonese as his grand daughter says. I'm uncomfortable making claims that are unproven. Same goes for many historical figures that are listed as Hakka. I'd like to see some proof before I welcome them as part of the clan.

my mother doesn't consider herself Hakka despite it being true. imo, many chinese doesn't know their own roots. staying in another community for a long time without other people of the same group in the town and you will just adapt to the local tongue there since there is no purpose to use your own. i speak Cantonese in Malaysia and Hokkien in Singapore, but who can tell what kind of people me and my father is? >:)

i wouldn't take her mistake as fact. it is quite pointless really given that Dr.Sun wanna be a Chinese before anything else

It's just from my observation and knowledge that made me concluded that Taishanese Cantonese(and other sze yap dialects) may have incorperated some Wu vocabularies, due to some common words Example: GuGu (used in both Kaiping Taishanese and Shanghainese) and also the fact alot of people(about 200 000) from the Wu speaking area of Hangzhou, Zhejiang migrated to Guangdong around Song dynasty period. In addition, Cantonese Opera (粵劇) was brought to Guangdong from Zhejiang during the late Song Dynasty period. But of course Taishanese Cantonese and other Cantonese dialects should be more like Middle Chinese (language of the Tang, Song, and Sui), because they are descended from them.

Language & tone from the past vs. now might not be 100% alike, but they can be almost be quite similar. Just like Latin vs Italian(a descendant of Latin) is not 100% alike but they are somewhat similar. How is it that Hakka, Cantonese and Mandarin are descendants of Middle Chinese.. it's by comparing them to Sino-Influence languages like Japanese, Vietnamese and Korean.

The Hakkas only came to Guangdong in the mid to late 1700s and Sun Yat Sen was born in Zhongshan in the late 1800 (which is about 100-150 years difference)... so if he knew he was a Hakka & spoke Hakka, he would have said so himself. But there was a quote by Sun Yat Sen that General Zhaoyun posted(in another post about Sun Yat Sen being Cantonese) previously and it is the following “予途遇之华人既稔予为粤人，始以粤语与予相酬答，且语且行，步履颇舒缓。” - the quote by Sun says he is a Cantonese. I also found an article stating this quote : http://www.gf99.cn/article.asp?ID=1094

But i know Taishanese and Hakka share more in common actually, in terms of vocabulary ^^

He is Yue people . Dr. Sun Yat Sen has come to Vietnam to choose the flag for Kuomintang.
Here is a pictute of Trống đồng
http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%E1%BB%91ng_%C4%91%E1%BB%93ng
Here is Kuomintang's flag:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuomintang

Pls cite your reference to back up your assertion that Dr. Sen was a yue or he came to Vietnam to choose the flag for KMT; I personally see such assertion is a bit absurd since there is no academic group in our out of Vietnam has ever claimed Dr. Sen has such affiliation with the Vietnamese. The idea of Bai-Yue, etc. would be more or less of speculations regarding their composition or where they came from so is the Vietnamese.

I haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere in this thread but an important cultural distinction of the Hakka was that they rejected the custom of female foot-binding. A progressive atttitude for the times.

the Republic of China flag was designed by a Cantonese from Zhongshan, GD, China named 陸皓東 Here is the source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu_Hao-tung

It is confirmed that Sun Yat Sen is Cantonese not Hakka...

If you go to Zhongshan (Dr. Sun Yat-sen) University in Guangzhou, they have taped recordings from his actual speeches. Undoubtedly he has a perfect Pearl River (Cantonese) accent. There are photos of his relatives when he was a child. Some of the female family members show they have bounded feet. Hakka women never bind their feet. The claim that he spoke some Hakka in his speeches is not verifiable and it wouldn't be surprising because he must have grown up among some of them in his village. His mother also once scolded him to behave and not be like those Hakkas. During that time, the Taiping Rebellion was mostly Hakka inspired and they were associated with banditry and rebellion back then. A lot of hints that he was Cantonese and not Hakka

The Chinese Government and State Press Xinhua news (People's Daily online) also officially state that Dr. Sun Yat Sen is Hakka.

In 2004 to celebrate the 100th Birthday of Deng Xiaoping (another famous Hakka) they released this article and statement.
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200411/1...118_164303.html

"Among the best-known Hakkas in China's history are Sun Yat-sen who led a democratic revolution to topple the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911) in the early 20th century, and Zhu De, late Marshal and commander-in-chief of the Chinese People's Liberation Army."

Source: Xinhua
I think that it would be reasonable for the Chinese Government Knows its own History of the Founding of the State and which ethnicity its founders were, and to state the correct facts in media for the worldwide stage.


Guest People: Hakka Identity in China and Abroad
By Nicole Constable
Published by University of Washington Press, 2005
ISBN 0295984872, 9780295984872
294 pages

"Sun Yat Sen Provides the Ultimate Example of a National leader who remained silent about his possible Hakka background"
His Biographer Paul Linebarger called him "Sun the Silent". Some of Sun's Descendents are said to Disagree, but one son Sun Ke headed the Worldwide Hakka Federation".

" He spoke Hakka with Hakka supporters and Cantonese with Cantonese".
(mmmmmm... How many cantonese do you know who speak Hakka and are not Hakka??????!!!!!!!!!!! ed:Hakkamoi)
" Sun asked his mother to unbind his sister's feet"
"The biography includes a family photograph of Sun's mother and two sisters in law with bound feet, However
neither Linebarger or other scholars note that two other woman relatives in the photo have unbound feet"

It was highly unfashionable to be associated as hakka as a southern leader at the time as it could scupper
national support as one could be associated with the Taiping revolution.

Are you sure Deng Xiaopeng is Hakka? I highly doubt such claims. Please provide your historical evidence. It's most likely another myth fabricated by Hakka nationalist?

Deng Xiaopeng is supposedly a Sichuanese

GZ didn't you provided a source and quote in the past that mentions and prove that Sun Yat Sen was a Cantonese of Zhongshan and not a Hakka ? i forgot the link

Indeed, I personally agree that Sun Yat Sen was a Cantonese from Cuiheng village 翠亨村 of Zhongshan 中山 (previously known as Xiangshan 香山). He was not a Hakka as some people claimed him to be. You can refer to http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/22808296.html, which provides the academic view/research about the controversy and mounting evidences that Sun Yat Sen was a cantonese and not a Hakka.

Basically, the debate over Sun Yat Sen's ancestry origin (which leads to clue whether he was cantonese or hakka) was caused by two academic theories/sources of the 20th century: the Theory of Zijin and Theory of Dongguan

The Theory of Zijin (紫金说)

This theory proposed that Sun Yat Sen's ancestor were from Zijin 紫金 county, which was situated in central Guangdong province. The majority of dwellers of Zijin county are Hakka and thus the theory deduced that Sun Yat Sen was a Hakka.

This theory had its origin from Paul M. Linebarger 's book Sun Yat Sen and the Chinese Republic , which mentioned "Kung Kun" as the location of Sun Yat Sen's ancestry temple. The chinese scholar Professor Luo Xianglin 罗香林 transliterated "Kung Kun" into chinese as 公馆背, and argued that this was mentioned in the genealogy record of Sun's clan at Zijin 《孙氏族谱》. He further argued that Sun Yat Sen's ancestor 孙连昌 was the same person as 孙琏昌, as mentiond in Sun's genealogy record at Zijin and went on to propose a migration path of his ancestor to Zhongshan.

When Professor Luo Xianglin published his book 《国父家世源流考》 (Inquiry into ancestry lineage of Sun Yat Sen) in 1942, he argued that Sun Yat Sen's ancestor originated from Zijin and this was well accepted by the KMT and thus became a widely accepted view. The book mentioned "孙中山，实客家人与广府本地系之混血种，所居翠亨，原名菜坑，盖客家移民，初以种菜为生，故以菜坑名村也" (Sun Yat Sen, was in fact a mix of Hakka and Cantonese, his ancestors were Hakka migrants and initially grew vegetables for a living)

It was only until 1960s that this theory began to be revised as Professor Tan Bian 谭彼岸, Qiujie 邱捷, Lin Jiayou 林家有 gathered more information from artefacts and other historical sources to come into a conclusion that the theory of Zijin was full of flaws, lacked evidences and were unreliable. They generally supported the theory of Dongguan.

The Theory of Dongguan (东莞说)

The theory of Dongguan argued that Sun Yat Sen's ancestors came from Dongguan 东莞, which was situated in southern Guangdong province. As most of the dwellers in Dongguan were cantonese, Sun Yat Sen's ancestors were in fact Cantonese.

This theory was supported by tonnes of evidences from oral, artefacts and research information carried out after 1960s. The evidences are summarized as follow:

1. Information from sources and writings

The genealogy record 《孙氏家谱》 of Sun Miaoqian 孙妙茜 (a relative of Sun Yat Sen) recorded that "始祖、二世、三世、四世祖俱在东莞县长沙乡（即上沙乡）居住。五世祖礼赞公在东莞县迁居来涌口村居 住" (ancestors, 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation dwelled in Changsha village of Dongguan county. 5th generation moved to Yongkou village)

2. Oral Records

Many of Sun Yat Sen's relatives and descendents had mentioned that their ancestors originated from Dongguan and that they were cantonese.

3. Artefacts

Near the hometown (Chuiheng village) of Sun Yat Sen were 39 graveyards of Sun Yat Sen. The records tallied with Sun's genealogy sources such as 《孙氏家谱》、《孙梅景等人卖田契》、《乐安堂仕合号账册》、《孙达成兄弟批耕山荒合约》. It suggested that Sun's ancestors had migrated to Zhongshan from Dongguan around Ming dynasty period.

4. Sources

Most of the academic sources mentioned about the migration of Sun Yat Sen's ancestors from Dongguan to Zhongshan. You can refer to more authoritative source such as 《孙中山年谱长编》 (Sun Yat Sen's Year Lineage, 1991) and 《孙中山辞典》 (Sun Yat Sen's dictionary , 1994). These sources supported the theory of Dongguan.

5. Research

a. Cuiheng village (Sun Yat Sen's birthplace) is today populated largely by cantonese. The village only had a history of 300 years. The first settlers such as family of Mai 麦, Feng 冯 and Lu 陆 were not Hakka. Thus, Cuiheng village was not a place populated by Hakka immigrants. There were also no Hakka immigrants initially. If Sun's family were Hakka, they could not have lived amongst the cantonese. They would have to live in Hakka villages, such as those seen in Zijin.

b. Sun Yat Sen's speech record in 1924 clearly indicated that all of Sun's relatives were cantonese-speaking and not Hakka-speaking. There were no ancestors of Sun who can speak Hakka. There was a saying in Hakka that "one can sell the ancestors' land ,but no forget ancestors' language".

c. During the times of Sun Yat Sen, there were no practice of marriage between Sun's family and Hakka.

d. All of Sun Yat Sen's female siblings, family members and relatives (including mother, sisters) bounded their feet. It had been known that Hakka females do not bind their feet. How could they have bound their feet if they were Hakka?

actually there are hakka speaking people in sichuan..

http://www.bbtpress.com/homepagebook/2679/a05.htm

though i am unable to verify if deng s hometown Guang'an is or was ever Hakka speaking ...