http://sluma.slu.edu/treasuredjade.html
See that Han Dynasty chariot ... it's absolutely exquisite.
Full Version: Jade gallery
I would bet whatever Ron fancies these items are fakes.
Not good fakes either.
The jade chariot is silly as a concept (it is a fantasy toy, not a jade in the style of any that really existed). It is rather chunky, and lacking in any of the finese or style a jade made for a ranking people should have. It is invented by thumbing through a textbook and then joining the concept from several real artefacts of bronze. The detail looks machine cut.
In an age of high speed rotating tools for carving I see all sorts of monstrosities come into existence, ancient jade was not heavy or thick pieces like this. There have been small museums fooled in the past. Terry Young of the Young Museum in Texas lost a lot of money but then found his jades were overpriced fakes.
He said afterwards that if anyone offers you a thick or heavy piece of ancient jade it will be fake.
More often the real ancient jades were made from slabs (a slice) or a water worn form which is then carved into something.
This chariot is a collection of other authentic forms in bronze put together in a jumble to fool the sensibilties of a collector.
Even if they paid thousands for this (which they may have) it doesn't make it ancient.
I could point members in the direction of retailers who would sell them jades just like this...or make one to order if they wished.
Note the Han, Song and Ming jades all look the same surface and tone. It is one factory & one type of stone.
Jade collecting is perhaps the worst of any Chinese antiques to collect IMO. Ron has been swindled.
Ron Poe is a businessman (of electric sun-beds) who makes trips to China and was helped by Chinese 'friends' to find reputable dealers of jade.
If this is so then the only reason the PRC let these jades come out with him is because they know they are fake. There is an export ban on these items leaving China if they were real. Fake jades are offered for sale and do leave in huge numbers.
Take a look on e-bay and see how much Hong Shan material is offered from Shanghai despite the ban on export of antiquities.
http://sluma.slu.edu/files/poebroch.pdf (more on the collection here)
Even the first item looks just like a (crudely) machine tooled fake. It is a combination of a real dragon disc found in the King of Nanyues tomb joined with a second disc to make it more interesting ...and wacky... for tourists.
It is said 'in the style of the Han dynasty'.
Yes it is. But made in the 20th century AD at best.
"Dragon disc with free moving centre". It is a fantasy piece, made with ease with modern tools & would be a first class relic of jade carving if it really was Han. (...it isn't)
Although it is a huge collection, and his 'legacy', he has been fleeced. Shame on the people who nievely display this collection of fantasy mixed with abomination. The standard stencilled Taotie mask stares from a fake jade in the collection, this is so typical.
Call in somebody from Christies & Sotherbys for an opinion on the real retail value.
Ouch.
Some people just never learn and pour money into charlatan sources. The more they invest the less they likely they come to ever finding the truth. I have seen this before.
On the link I just gave are more items pictured. Some of these I could buy for under US$50 since they are fake.
If they were real then add on a few zeros minimum to the price for even the smallest piece.
The fantasy version of a Hong Shan pig dragon he owns is standard forgery fare. There are so many of these for sale, yet the actual amounts in Chinese museums from excavation is very small. The Hong Shan fakes are often large, and distorted, like we see here with extra embellishments never seen on the real Hong Shan jades (here it forms 2 spirals instead of correct 1 =WRONG!.
Funny again this Hong Shan jade is exactly the same looking type of stone as the later dynasty Chimera beside it. It would likely be all carved from the same stuff and chemically aged. Hong Shan jade is more typically a distinctive green nephrite or red/green. Odd that items seperated by thousands of years, cultures, and geological source still look like carved from the same stone to my eye. Hmmmm.
He may have visited many museums, but such collectors eventually become blind to reality & sense.
The collection is a typical example of jade market fakes.
If you are an ignorant person with money to spend and can't tell the difference then the dealers (who are as a general rule dishonest) will always point you in the direction of fakes.
It seems Ron Poe would be popular in China, because he has displayed a taste for outlandish items that to me suggest somebody is having a bit of fun and trying to be 'wacky'.
Ron knows just enough to get himself in trouble, but not enough to see what he is really buying.
http://www.slu.edu/readstory/newslink/6192
Yeah, the US businessman went to China and then his 'friends' there set him up with a Han burial suit (i.e resticted to Han Imperial family by law, and 10 years in the making by Han expert carvers, priceless first class relic, only a handful of these even in Chinese museums..).
OR somebody saw him coming and unloaded a lot of cheap 'jade' (or more likely a substitute stone of less cost if he tested it via a geologist) which was machine carved at a cost of US$3 by a labourer with a cutting tool.
If I was Ron Poe I would take one of these items to somebody like Sam Bernstein, who offers recognised jade authentication & laboratory testing, pay his fee and then save a whole lot of money on bad purchases in the future.
Shame on the Saint Louis University Museum of Art for hosting all of this too.
Either they display recently looted first class national treasures (call the PRC embassy!) or else they are foolishly displaying some crude tourist knock-offs.
I think I have made which of these I believe quite clear.
Sad.
Not good fakes either.
The jade chariot is silly as a concept (it is a fantasy toy, not a jade in the style of any that really existed). It is rather chunky, and lacking in any of the finese or style a jade made for a ranking people should have. It is invented by thumbing through a textbook and then joining the concept from several real artefacts of bronze. The detail looks machine cut.
In an age of high speed rotating tools for carving I see all sorts of monstrosities come into existence, ancient jade was not heavy or thick pieces like this. There have been small museums fooled in the past. Terry Young of the Young Museum in Texas lost a lot of money but then found his jades were overpriced fakes.
He said afterwards that if anyone offers you a thick or heavy piece of ancient jade it will be fake.
More often the real ancient jades were made from slabs (a slice) or a water worn form which is then carved into something.
This chariot is a collection of other authentic forms in bronze put together in a jumble to fool the sensibilties of a collector.
Even if they paid thousands for this (which they may have) it doesn't make it ancient.
I could point members in the direction of retailers who would sell them jades just like this...or make one to order if they wished.
Note the Han, Song and Ming jades all look the same surface and tone. It is one factory & one type of stone.
Jade collecting is perhaps the worst of any Chinese antiques to collect IMO. Ron has been swindled.
Ron Poe is a businessman (of electric sun-beds) who makes trips to China and was helped by Chinese 'friends' to find reputable dealers of jade.
If this is so then the only reason the PRC let these jades come out with him is because they know they are fake. There is an export ban on these items leaving China if they were real. Fake jades are offered for sale and do leave in huge numbers.
Take a look on e-bay and see how much Hong Shan material is offered from Shanghai despite the ban on export of antiquities.
http://sluma.slu.edu/files/poebroch.pdf (more on the collection here)
Even the first item looks just like a (crudely) machine tooled fake. It is a combination of a real dragon disc found in the King of Nanyues tomb joined with a second disc to make it more interesting ...and wacky... for tourists.
It is said 'in the style of the Han dynasty'.
Yes it is. But made in the 20th century AD at best.
"Dragon disc with free moving centre". It is a fantasy piece, made with ease with modern tools & would be a first class relic of jade carving if it really was Han. (...it isn't)
Although it is a huge collection, and his 'legacy', he has been fleeced. Shame on the people who nievely display this collection of fantasy mixed with abomination. The standard stencilled Taotie mask stares from a fake jade in the collection, this is so typical.
Call in somebody from Christies & Sotherbys for an opinion on the real retail value.
Ouch.Some people just never learn and pour money into charlatan sources. The more they invest the less they likely they come to ever finding the truth. I have seen this before.
On the link I just gave are more items pictured. Some of these I could buy for under US$50 since they are fake.
If they were real then add on a few zeros minimum to the price for even the smallest piece.
The fantasy version of a Hong Shan pig dragon he owns is standard forgery fare. There are so many of these for sale, yet the actual amounts in Chinese museums from excavation is very small. The Hong Shan fakes are often large, and distorted, like we see here with extra embellishments never seen on the real Hong Shan jades (here it forms 2 spirals instead of correct 1 =WRONG!.
Funny again this Hong Shan jade is exactly the same looking type of stone as the later dynasty Chimera beside it. It would likely be all carved from the same stuff and chemically aged. Hong Shan jade is more typically a distinctive green nephrite or red/green. Odd that items seperated by thousands of years, cultures, and geological source still look like carved from the same stone to my eye. Hmmmm.
He may have visited many museums, but such collectors eventually become blind to reality & sense.
The collection is a typical example of jade market fakes.
If you are an ignorant person with money to spend and can't tell the difference then the dealers (who are as a general rule dishonest) will always point you in the direction of fakes.
It seems Ron Poe would be popular in China, because he has displayed a taste for outlandish items that to me suggest somebody is having a bit of fun and trying to be 'wacky'.
Ron knows just enough to get himself in trouble, but not enough to see what he is really buying.
http://www.slu.edu/readstory/newslink/6192
QUOTE
The Saint Louis University Museum of Art is pleased to host a complimentary reception to present a rare, jade funerary suit that has recently been added to its current exhibition of “Treasured Jade: The Ronald S. Poe and Linda Laspe Poe Chinese Jade Collection.” The intricately stitched jade funerary suit consists of 11 sections: head, front, and back parts of tunic, arms, gloves, leggings, and feet. Its addition augments a collection of over 200 ceremonial and religious artifacts showcasing the dedicated efforts of skilled craftsmen who created their legacy without benefit of machine or other implements of the industrial age. The reception will be held on Friday, November 4 from 5:30 7:30 p.m....
......There are perhaps no more than 30 of these funerary suits in public and private collections {a whole lot less I would bet}. Most, like the funerary suit in the Poe Collection, were reconstructed using everyday wire to connect the hundreds of pieces of jade that make up the suit. The jade burial suits of the Han Dynasty have been found throughout China and demonstrate shared beliefs and common burial practices dating back more than 2,000 years.
......There are perhaps no more than 30 of these funerary suits in public and private collections {a whole lot less I would bet}. Most, like the funerary suit in the Poe Collection, were reconstructed using everyday wire to connect the hundreds of pieces of jade that make up the suit. The jade burial suits of the Han Dynasty have been found throughout China and demonstrate shared beliefs and common burial practices dating back more than 2,000 years.
Yeah, the US businessman went to China and then his 'friends' there set him up with a Han burial suit (i.e resticted to Han Imperial family by law, and 10 years in the making by Han expert carvers, priceless first class relic, only a handful of these even in Chinese museums..).
OR somebody saw him coming and unloaded a lot of cheap 'jade' (or more likely a substitute stone of less cost if he tested it via a geologist) which was machine carved at a cost of US$3 by a labourer with a cutting tool.
If I was Ron Poe I would take one of these items to somebody like Sam Bernstein, who offers recognised jade authentication & laboratory testing, pay his fee and then save a whole lot of money on bad purchases in the future.
Shame on the Saint Louis University Museum of Art for hosting all of this too.
Either they display recently looted first class national treasures (call the PRC embassy!) or else they are foolishly displaying some crude tourist knock-offs.
I think I have made which of these I believe quite clear.
Sad.
[quote name='Kenneth' date='Jan 12 2007, 11:25 AM' post='4871192']
What do you think of a sedan carved in jade that I saw displayed in a historical building in Sydney. It is said to date back to the Qing dynasty. The jade is not the green sort we normally associate with jewellery and ornaments but greyish and pale in tone. Would that be authentic?
What do you think of a sedan carved in jade that I saw displayed in a historical building in Sydney. It is said to date back to the Qing dynasty. The jade is not the green sort we normally associate with jewellery and ornaments but greyish and pale in tone. Would that be authentic?
QUOTE
'cjc' post='4871409' date='Jan 13 2007, 07:45 AM'
What do you think of a sedan carved in jade that I saw displayed in a historical building in Sydney. It is said to date back to the Qing dynasty. The jade is not the green sort we normally associate with jewellery and ornaments but greyish and pale in tone. Would that be authentic?
What do you think of a sedan carved in jade that I saw displayed in a historical building in Sydney. It is said to date back to the Qing dynasty. The jade is not the green sort we normally associate with jewellery and ornaments but greyish and pale in tone. Would that be authentic?
Late dynasty jades can be Burmese 'jadeite' rather than 'nephrite' and do have green, grey, red, white and all sorts.
The carving of complex jades of types not seen in ancient China means there are whimsical items like jade mantis on jade cabbage leaf artworks by the Qing or cricket on jade http://www.goamcan.com/photos/dscn_5317.html.
Bear in mind that jade from Zhou times had very particular functions and usage, for the tomb, for ritual, for personal adornment and these were listed in the rites of Zhou. There is no such item in the Han period even if by the Qing there were more purely decorative and 'art for arts sake' style jades being made for the rich. They still had more finese than the machine cut jades that Ron bought.
Whether one you saw in Syndey is Qing or not I wouldn't have the faintest idea. I do know however that the chariot here said to be Han will be fake. I sent the link off to a more experienced collector and jade enthusiast and he believes them to all be new as well.
Unlike Ron's background in the sun bed business this person has been involved in Asian art as a museum employee and published his own jade collection, which he had first paid to have some authenticated via proffesional jade scholars like; http://www.bernsteinjadeart.com/pub_01.htm
& if you want to know where to buy pieces that will look much the same as Ron's pieces try this shop;
http://www.chicochai.com/main.php
& ebay http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ2...tiquesQ2dltdQ2e
Chicochai is one source that would love to have people purchase their neverending factory finished (and often very silly) fakes.
QUOTE(Kenneth @ Jan 30 2007, 01:08 PM) [snapback]4873955[/snapback]
Late dynasty jades can be Burmese 'jadeite' rather than 'nephrite' and do have green, grey, red, white and all sorts.
The carving of complex jades of types not seen in ancient China means there are whimsical items like jade mantis on jade cabbage leaf artworks by the Qing or cricket on jade http://www.goamcan.com/photos/dscn_5317.html.
The carving of complex jades of types not seen in ancient China means there are whimsical items like jade mantis on jade cabbage leaf artworks by the Qing or cricket on jade http://www.goamcan.com/photos/dscn_5317.html.
Thanks. I've always marvelled at jade decorative pieces but have neither the resources nor interest to acquire any at this point in time.
Umm, if I can afford it, I would prefer not to buy a fake.
My apologies for not making my question clearer. The jade sedan at QVB in the CBD is actually "life size", not a decorative ornament.
You can't miss it if you happen to be there.
Sharing this seems appropriate. Here's a ring I bought in HK:
QUOTE(cjc @ Jan 31 2007, 05:48 AM) [snapback]4874130[/snapback]
Thanks. I've always marvelled at jade decorative pieces but have neither the resources nor interest to acquire any at this point in time.
Umm, if I can afford it, I would prefer not to buy a fake.
My apologies for not making my question clearer. The jade sedan at QVB in the CBD is actually "life size", not a decorative ornament.
You can't miss it if you happen to be there.
Umm, if I can afford it, I would prefer not to buy a fake.
My apologies for not making my question clearer. The jade sedan at QVB in the CBD is actually "life size", not a decorative ornament.
You can't miss it if you happen to be there.
I don't see how it could possibly be an antique if you mean it was life sized. Maybe in Cinderella there are such things made by fairy godmothers, but I expect the display wouldn't even claim such a piece was old (?). Rather in a Qing 'style'?
Even if it was modern it would be worth a fortune. There are of course substitues for jade, either artificial cast resin or other commoner minerals, or glass, that would be more likely to be used.
...after all large jade boulders are huge investments & treasures both in ancient times and today.
If something like a Qing jade as big as your fist is a treasure of the first class and was held by Chinese (Manchu) Emperor's in his collection then a life sized jade sedan sounds kind of odd.
The Jade Emperor in Chinese mythology sits on a jade sedan BTW. I can find no reference to one actually existing though, even in the Forbidden City.
QUOTE
Sharing this seems appropriate. Here's a ring I bought in HK:
.....are you planning to propose to someone?
The only ancient nephrite-jades I have I was gifted, and they are beads and bracelets of various types from the Sino-Viet Dong Son culture, supposedly from Yunnan in this case.
I have only rarely seen what would be supposedly real ancient Chinese jade for sale, very small or damaged pieces. You would need to spend a long time sniffing out good sources and learning the reputation of a dealer.
Mostly there is really no way of knowing for sure they are real or not even though there are a few good signs to look for on ancient style jades (i.e Zhou-Han).
I missed placing a bid on some supposed Han nephrite small & damaged pieces, which looked quite good, so at present the only true (Zhong Guo) Chinese 'jades' I have that are possibly ancient are actually more like cheaper calcite or soapstone substitutes for the more the expensive nephrite. These are a broken and repaired small & rough 'bi', some drilled tiny plaques & a very rough flat cicada.
I posted all of these on CHF in the past. Although the Dong Son pieces I am quite sure of I do keep an open mind on the supposed 'Han' items authenticity. Most features can be faked after all, and the hardest to fake features to not appear on most jades even if they are actually ancient.
For this reason I think antique jade is not worth collecting unless you want to accept the risk of being tricked.
Ancient bronze surfaces have more complexities to judge by, and being a man-made material there are a lot more tests and factors to look at for authentication. For this reason there are bronzes that I have examined that I can be certain are ancient.
i.e I got a bronze halberd (ji) missing last week which had the blade of the dagger-axe . On it when I used 30x and 70x magnification I saw;
Wood grain imprinted on the surface at 2 tiny points orientated to the pole the weapon was once hafted to.
Decayed fragile traces of the seperate strands belonging to a binding cord in one of the holes for binding to a pole.
Botroidal malachite, a mineral feature/structure that is used for authentication of patina (as per Tony Allen).
Rods of tiny crystalisation, most likely cerussite, only visible in the patina under a loupe consistent with ancient patina.
General texture & variation of the patina, colours, cemented soil, edge loss which looks correct and ancient.
Signs of cleaning in recent times, removal of the cemented soil leaving some scratches.
Polishing on the bronze in ancient times with a coarse abrader.
Uneven casting, a variation in thickness of the casting around the socket (a flaw of sorts, but quite common).
Taken all together I would have no doubts such a piece was ancient, East Zhou.
QUOTE
.....are you planning to propose to someone?
Yup, and she said "yes"--surprisingly 
I chose jade because it is considered to be incorruptible, represents purity, and is compared to female beauty. IMO, jade is more romantic than diamonds, is aesthetically more pleasing, and is different. The tricky part was choosing the jade: so many colors, sizes, levels of lucidity, and fakes.
QUOTE
The only ancient nephrite-jades I have I was gifted, and they are beads and bracelets of various types from the Sino-Viet Dong Son culture, supposedly from Yunnan in this case.
I have only rarely seen what would be supposedly real ancient Chinese jade for sale, very small or damaged pieces. You would need to spend a long time sniffing out good sources and learning the reputation of a dealer.
Mostly there is really no way of knowing for sure they are real or not even though there are a few good signs to look for on ancient style jades (i.e Zhou-Han).
I missed placing a bid on some supposed Han nephrite small & damaged pieces, which looked quite good, so at present the only true (Zhong Guo) Chinese 'jades' I have that are possibly ancient are actually more like cheaper calcite or soapstone substitutes for the more the expensive nephrite. These are a broken and repaired small & rough 'bi', some drilled tiny plaques & a very rough flat cicada.
I posted all of these on CHF in the past. Although the Dong Son pieces are am quite sure of I do keep an open mind on the supposed 'Han' items authenticity. Most features can be faked after all, and the hardest to fake features to not appear on most jades even if they are actually ancient.
For this reason I think antique jade is not worth collecting unless you want to accept the risk of being tricked.
I have only rarely seen what would be supposedly real ancient Chinese jade for sale, very small or damaged pieces. You would need to spend a long time sniffing out good sources and learning the reputation of a dealer.
Mostly there is really no way of knowing for sure they are real or not even though there are a few good signs to look for on ancient style jades (i.e Zhou-Han).
I missed placing a bid on some supposed Han nephrite small & damaged pieces, which looked quite good, so at present the only true (Zhong Guo) Chinese 'jades' I have that are possibly ancient are actually more like cheaper calcite or soapstone substitutes for the more the expensive nephrite. These are a broken and repaired small & rough 'bi', some drilled tiny plaques & a very rough flat cicada.
I posted all of these on CHF in the past. Although the Dong Son pieces are am quite sure of I do keep an open mind on the supposed 'Han' items authenticity. Most features can be faked after all, and the hardest to fake features to not appear on most jades even if they are actually ancient.
For this reason I think antique jade is not worth collecting unless you want to accept the risk of being tricked.
That's sound advice.
[quote name='Kenneth' date='Jan 11 2007, 06:25 PM' post='4871192']
I would bet whatever Ron fancies these items are fakes.
Not good fakes either.
The jade chariot is silly as a concept (it is a fantasy toy, not a jade in the style of any that really existed). It is rather chunky, and lacking in any of the finese or style a jade made for a ranking people should have. It is invented by thumbing through a textbook and then joining the concept from several real artefacts of bronze. The detail looks machine cut.
In an age of high speed rotating tools for carving I see all sorts of monstrosities come into existence, ancient jade was not heavy or thick pieces like this. There have been small museums fooled in the past. Terry Young of the Young Museum in Texas lost a lot of money but then found his jades were overpriced fakes.
He said afterwards that if anyone offers you a thick or heavy piece of ancient jade it will be fake.
More often the real ancient jades were made from slabs (a slice) or a water worn form which is then carved into something.
This chariot is a collection of other authentic forms in bronze put together in a jumble to fool the sensibilties of a collector.
Even if they paid thousands for this (which they may have) it doesn't make it ancient.
I could point members in the direction of retailers who would sell them jades just like this...or make one to order if they wished.
Hi, Kenneth:
I happen to come across several of your messages and find all of them very refreshing and brutally honest. I hope you do not mind I quote them in the Chicochia Jade Forum:
http://www.chicochai.com/jadeforum/read.ph...=1&id=22238
The only response I got so far is from Ms. Anita Mui in Hong Kong and she told me she is a BIG fan of yours.
Your opinions are as honest as that of Tony Allen who are known for his honesty and integrity in dealing Chinese antiques.
Unfortunately, I feel that some of these jade pals on the Chicochia jade forum are extremely short-sighted, have a closed-door policy and are dreamers in believing they can purchase authentic archaic jades from China in bargain prices. They must believe all these Chinese dealers are fools. What do you think?
Thanks again.
Bill
I would bet whatever Ron fancies these items are fakes.
Not good fakes either.
The jade chariot is silly as a concept (it is a fantasy toy, not a jade in the style of any that really existed). It is rather chunky, and lacking in any of the finese or style a jade made for a ranking people should have. It is invented by thumbing through a textbook and then joining the concept from several real artefacts of bronze. The detail looks machine cut.
In an age of high speed rotating tools for carving I see all sorts of monstrosities come into existence, ancient jade was not heavy or thick pieces like this. There have been small museums fooled in the past. Terry Young of the Young Museum in Texas lost a lot of money but then found his jades were overpriced fakes.
He said afterwards that if anyone offers you a thick or heavy piece of ancient jade it will be fake.
More often the real ancient jades were made from slabs (a slice) or a water worn form which is then carved into something.
This chariot is a collection of other authentic forms in bronze put together in a jumble to fool the sensibilties of a collector.
Even if they paid thousands for this (which they may have) it doesn't make it ancient.
I could point members in the direction of retailers who would sell them jades just like this...or make one to order if they wished.
Hi, Kenneth:
I happen to come across several of your messages and find all of them very refreshing and brutally honest. I hope you do not mind I quote them in the Chicochia Jade Forum:
http://www.chicochai.com/jadeforum/read.ph...=1&id=22238
The only response I got so far is from Ms. Anita Mui in Hong Kong and she told me she is a BIG fan of yours.
Your opinions are as honest as that of Tony Allen who are known for his honesty and integrity in dealing Chinese antiques.
Unfortunately, I feel that some of these jade pals on the Chicochia jade forum are extremely short-sighted, have a closed-door policy and are dreamers in believing they can purchase authentic archaic jades from China in bargain prices. They must believe all these Chinese dealers are fools. What do you think?
Thanks again.
Bill
QUOTE(Goldeagle1981 @ Feb 7 2007, 05:05 PM) [snapback]4874940[/snapback]
I happen to come across several of your messages and find all of them very refreshing and brutally honest. I hope you do not mind I quote them in the Chicochia Jade Forum:
http://www.chicochai.com/jadeforum/read.ph...=1&id=22238
The only response I got so far is from Ms. Anita Mui in Hong Kong and she told me she is a BIG fan of yours.
Your opinions are as honest as that of Tony Allen who are known for his honesty and integrity in dealing Chinese antiques.
Unfortunately, I feel that some of these jade pals on the Chicochia jade forum are extremely short-sighted, have a closed-door policy and are dreamers in believing they can purchase authentic archaic jades from China in bargain prices. They must believe all these Chinese dealers are fools. What do you think?
Thanks again.
Bill
http://www.chicochai.com/jadeforum/read.ph...=1&id=22238
The only response I got so far is from Ms. Anita Mui in Hong Kong and she told me she is a BIG fan of yours.
Your opinions are as honest as that of Tony Allen who are known for his honesty and integrity in dealing Chinese antiques.
Unfortunately, I feel that some of these jade pals on the Chicochia jade forum are extremely short-sighted, have a closed-door policy and are dreamers in believing they can purchase authentic archaic jades from China in bargain prices. They must believe all these Chinese dealers are fools. What do you think?
Thanks again.
Bill
Some of the people on Chicochai are either totally divorced from reality, or else are crooks.
They know all about me. I posted there a lot untill about mid-2005 when I realised I had better ways to spend my time than arguing in circles. I have many posts under the same name on their forum.
Basically the core members seemed unconcerned that their peices do not appear like any in any museum or text published.
To this they reply (seriously) that museums brutally repolish and clean jades so they do not look the same.
I know this is all rubbish since I have seen museum examples with imprints of fabric, ochre & cemented soil on an number of occasions as I have also in books.
They also claim that some features they identify could NEVER occur on fakes...mainly raised crystals on jade surfaces...the issue is here that there is little evidence this occurs on real ancient jades at all. Apart from a contentious paper by a geologist named Tsien there is no reason on the basis of this odd feature to assume this is a feature on real jades. If so it must be incredibly rare.
The odd thing is though Chocochai and other folk like them have jades with close to 100% with these crystal....always availble in bulk.
Stylistically they have wierd twistings of true styles and fantasy pieces for sale that should also make them suspicious, but the forum folk instead say Chinese museums and academics are blind to 'real jade'.
When I have pointed out some purely impossible things like 'Zhou' jades which are in the style of ghurka knives and rajput swords (ie, wrong date and culture) it still only recieves a lot of anger if I say this.
Chicochai forum is more like a support group for collectors who are throwing money down the drain and want to belittle all the academics who they think are the real fools.
Ironically one of the main posters (last I looked) had bought over 1,000 Hong Shan jades (when officially all museums toghether dont even have a third of this!) and he bought them for prices like $12.50 each when a Chinese collector might pay over $5,000 for one if it was real, or even 10 times this.....yet they believe that instead of selling it for $5,000 they will sell it for $12.50?
They have all sorts of excuses, and can shout down most people (hence they outlast anybody who might tell it to them straight), and in the end I grew tired of stating the obvious.
Hence I left, and assume it is still all going on just the same.
I see on Chicochai you were unsure whether to believe my comments about Terry Young and his museum being swindled.
The comments of his about jades should never be 'heavy' and such were made by Terry on Chicochai after he learnt the truth and then re-examined the market and realised he had been tricked.
If you go way back on the forum you will find all this still there. Hit 'previous' untill you roll back the years.
This is why Terry, who was partly responsible for creating the forum, was a honoured member (and probably customer) if you read the first posts at the beginning but later was a figure who was involved in the futile debates with the established core group.
He in the end was treated with much scorn by some...and he had to resell a lot of jades at a loss.
His collection in the Young museum is better for it however since he has plenty of real items of ancient art.
Most collectors have been tricked at some time, but it can be for the better in the long run if they are willing to accept it and grow a little.
...about Dr. David Anderson on Chichochai forum, he was told by Guo Dashun (a notable excavator of the most famous Hong Shan site & burial ground) that his collection of jades were fake. i.e Guo Dashun on http://www.china.org.cn/english/15802.htm
David would not even believe Guo Dashun on his jades! He was told the Hong Shan jades are the wrong style and looked fake, but David just asked 'how could they fake these raised crystals?'.
The answer was....'I don't know, but they did.' Should be end of story, but as the saying goes..."you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink".
This is the reason in the end it was futile and the forum does as much harm as good.
The comments of his about jades should never be 'heavy' and such were made by Terry on Chicochai after he learnt the truth and then re-examined the market and realised he had been tricked.
If you go way back on the forum you will find all this still there. Hit 'previous' untill you roll back the years.
This is why Terry, who was partly responsible for creating the forum, was a honoured member (and probably customer) if you read the first posts at the beginning but later was a figure who was involved in the futile debates with the established core group.
He in the end was treated with much scorn by some...and he had to resell a lot of jades at a loss.
His collection in the Young museum is better for it however since he has plenty of real items of ancient art.
Most collectors have been tricked at some time, but it can be for the better in the long run if they are willing to accept it and grow a little.
...about Dr. David Anderson on Chichochai forum, he was told by Guo Dashun (a notable excavator of the most famous Hong Shan site & burial ground) that his collection of jades were fake. i.e Guo Dashun on http://www.china.org.cn/english/15802.htm
David would not even believe Guo Dashun on his jades! He was told the Hong Shan jades are the wrong style and looked fake, but David just asked 'how could they fake these raised crystals?'.
The answer was....'I don't know, but they did.' Should be end of story, but as the saying goes..."you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink".
This is the reason in the end it was futile and the forum does as much harm as good.
Hi, Kenneth:
Sorry it took so long for me to read your replies in this forum. I am still new with this forum and have problems in finding a lot of the messages. The search function simply is not working very well. I do believe what you said about Terry Young's collection, I am just not so sure about the authenticity of any jades can 100% be authenticated by any paid experts.
I saw your temporary presense in the Chicochai forum and then I saw they all ganged up on you. They also booted Anita out of the forum (for speaking her mind). I guess it is very difficult for them to accept any types of truth. I believe all of these jade pals in Chicochai are just dreamers and they believe there were tons of old tombs in China being pillaged and thousands of authentic jade pieces were being smuggled out of the country and sent to United States. They must think the Chinese are stupid. If any archaic jades were found, I believe they can fetch higher prices inside China and with less risk. I believe it is still a crime for smuggling any antiques older than 75 years out of China and I believe the penalty for smuggling in China is death. Correct me if I am wrong.
I totally agree with you with some of the jade pals being so "anal" about raised crystals. Many archaic jade pieces being excavated from tombs in China never exhibited any types of crystals. I read quite a few Hongshan books and never see a single piece of authentic jades with raised crystals. Yes, some of them have some types of color permeation or dirts and they did clean some of them. However, many really good archaic jades are with shinning surfaces and look new. Unfortunately, many of theses fake jade pieces currently being sold on ebay are made to look old, with "jade skin", crusts, corrosion and all kinds of yaky stuff on the surfaces, I try to stay away from these types of jades. Unfortunately, I found that most jade collectors are very selfish in that they do not want share their sources of jades. I am also a coin collector and find that most coin collectors are very willing to share the wealth by directing you to the right source to get the bargain.
The only question I have, if you do not mind is where did Chicochai, Skylinks and even The Jade Road get their jades and how old are they? The reason I ask is because their stuff are in much better quality than all other jade staffs currently sold on ebay. I cannot believe they can be currently mass produced in China. I have a friend who also collected jades just came back from a visit to Hong Kong and China and he said he couldn't find any jades that were in high quality in there and if they were any good they asked for an arm and leg. Also, where can one find a piece of archaic jade? Do you mind sharing some of the reliable sources for purchasing archaic jades?
Thank you so very much. It is very sad you no longer participate in the Chicochai forum.
Goldeagle
Sorry it took so long for me to read your replies in this forum. I am still new with this forum and have problems in finding a lot of the messages. The search function simply is not working very well. I do believe what you said about Terry Young's collection, I am just not so sure about the authenticity of any jades can 100% be authenticated by any paid experts.
I saw your temporary presense in the Chicochai forum and then I saw they all ganged up on you. They also booted Anita out of the forum (for speaking her mind). I guess it is very difficult for them to accept any types of truth. I believe all of these jade pals in Chicochai are just dreamers and they believe there were tons of old tombs in China being pillaged and thousands of authentic jade pieces were being smuggled out of the country and sent to United States. They must think the Chinese are stupid. If any archaic jades were found, I believe they can fetch higher prices inside China and with less risk. I believe it is still a crime for smuggling any antiques older than 75 years out of China and I believe the penalty for smuggling in China is death. Correct me if I am wrong.
I totally agree with you with some of the jade pals being so "anal" about raised crystals. Many archaic jade pieces being excavated from tombs in China never exhibited any types of crystals. I read quite a few Hongshan books and never see a single piece of authentic jades with raised crystals. Yes, some of them have some types of color permeation or dirts and they did clean some of them. However, many really good archaic jades are with shinning surfaces and look new. Unfortunately, many of theses fake jade pieces currently being sold on ebay are made to look old, with "jade skin", crusts, corrosion and all kinds of yaky stuff on the surfaces, I try to stay away from these types of jades. Unfortunately, I found that most jade collectors are very selfish in that they do not want share their sources of jades. I am also a coin collector and find that most coin collectors are very willing to share the wealth by directing you to the right source to get the bargain.
The only question I have, if you do not mind is where did Chicochai, Skylinks and even The Jade Road get their jades and how old are they? The reason I ask is because their stuff are in much better quality than all other jade staffs currently sold on ebay. I cannot believe they can be currently mass produced in China. I have a friend who also collected jades just came back from a visit to Hong Kong and China and he said he couldn't find any jades that were in high quality in there and if they were any good they asked for an arm and leg. Also, where can one find a piece of archaic jade? Do you mind sharing some of the reliable sources for purchasing archaic jades?
Thank you so very much. It is very sad you no longer participate in the Chicochai forum.
Goldeagle
QUOTE
I believe all of these jade pals in Chicochai are just dreamers and they believe there were tons of old tombs in China being pillaged and thousands of authentic jade pieces were being smuggled out of the country and sent to United States. They must think the Chinese are stupid. If any archaic jades were found, I believe they can fetch higher prices inside China and with less risk. I believe it is still a crime for smuggling any antiques older than 75 years out of China and I believe the penalty for smuggling in China is death. Correct me if I am wrong.
I have heard the arguments about the hugh populations of people in ancient China, and the huge number of graves being robbed and this meaning the huge numbers of jades appearing are equally justified by collectors that gobble them up trustingly.
This is a partial truth. i.e; http://www.mcdonald.cam.ac.uk/IARC/cwoc/is...ews.htm#Chinese The Chinese National Cultural Relics bureau says that over the past five years at least 200,000 ancient tombs have been broken into.
Yes, a huge amount of artefacts are appearing on the markets in China even at this moment.
They appear in China (see the market at http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=13202 ), but they don't all have to reach the West. Jade in particular is sought after in China and can fetch good prices from the emerging class of wealthy collectors. Even bronze weapons have been said by more than one credible source (Piscopo, Allen, Nable) to be becoming rarer in the West for this reason. The better classes of items need not be smuggled at great risk onto Western markets.
The next point about the 'masses of graves=masses of jades' argument is that jades are entirely the trappings of the priveleged. In ancient times they were for ritual, or prestige, or burial and of course do not occur in the numbers of more common or mundane items.
i,e; At the premier HongShan site of Niuheliang the # of jades at this site from graves (22) contrast with hundreds of other artefacts. The graves that yeilded jades for example were; .....constructed by piling chipped rocks, either square or round, measuring 40 x 20 x 30 cm. Each tomb covers an area of 300-400 square meters, with the largest stretching over 1,000 square meters. The rocks were arranged to a height of more than one meter.
These are not a typical Hong Shan persons graves clearly and were the ruling elite at a large and important site. The idea that tens of millions of neolithic graves are stacked with hundreds of millions of jades is fantasy.
This was the Niuheliang site which lead to comments about a 'jade age' by the excavator Guo Dashun since this was still a very high & remarkable number http://english.people.com.cn/200402/25/eng...25_135852.shtml . The total known number of HongShan jades in all museums together is only a few hundred items. BTW The idea of a 'jade age' (jade as status symbols and religious icons) to me is incomparible to the effect the appearance of metallurgy had on ancient people.
Taking the collection of the eccentric David Anderson into account (in excess of 1,000 so-called HongShan jades) this means 500 Niuheliang culture complexes would have needed to be looted to furnish just his own collection.
Let alone the fact his jades look silly to me the whole concept doesn't stack up regardless of the # ancient peoples and the # of tombs robbed nationally as they might offer in denfense.
The ranking of 'supply' based on ancient tomb contents # would be ceramics, then bronze and then a distant third of jade.
Ancient jade is very rare indeed, and not openly or commonly offered for sale.
QUOTE
I totally agree with you with some of the jade pals being so "anal" about raised crystals. Many archaic jade pieces being excavated from tombs in China never exhibited any types of crystals. I read quite a few Hongshan books and never see a single piece of authentic jades with raised crystals. Yes, some of them have some types of color permeation or dirts and they did clean some of them. However, many really good archaic jades are with shinning surfaces and look new. Unfortunately, many of theses fake jade pieces currently being sold on ebay are made to look old, with "jade skin", crusts, corrosion and all kinds of yaky stuff on the surfaces, I try to stay away from these types of jades.
Yes, the funny thing is there is so much effort made for a jade to look 'ancient' by the fakers but they in the end often don't look like what most ancient and more subtley ancient jades even do.
If the faker didnt put all the white stains and heavy signs of age & erosion on a piece then how would the collectors know it is old?
I don't recall seeing anything on Chicochai, or e-bay, thay looked very much like what certainly ancient jades do. I haven't yet heard any 100% reliable proof that even a single ancient jade has raised crystals and this in itself suggests that dealers thay have every jade with raised crystals are just using some unknown trickery to create it.
When the jades in personal collections dont look like any certainly real ancient jade, and only resemble themselves & their other items then something is wrong.
It's quite funny in some ways.......but they aren't laughing.
QUOTE
The only question I have, if you do not mind is where did Chicochai, Skylinks and even The Jade Road get their jades and how old are they? The reason I ask is because their stuff are in much better quality than all other jade staffs currently sold on ebay. I cannot believe they can be currently mass produced in China.
Yep. They are mass produced in China. They are from the late 20th century at the oldest.
We never tracked down the actual factory but I have no doubt there is a factory for the raised crystals. Skylink is based in Hong Kong, and Chicochai has the abilty to do business in China.
There are workshops churning out fakes in China of all sorts. I have only caught the references and a seen few pictures of jades, ceramics and bronzes being faked on the sites but never had somebody explain helpfully just exactly how they do all of their tricks (funny that! Even Kentucky Fried Chicken has its secret herbs and spices!).
Just because we haven't personally visited the one with a particular technique to raise crystals from tremolite jade does not lead me to doubt it exists.
i.e Chad Herrington contacted a number of factories to try and get them to replicate the surface. He found plenty of people to make jades to order but he didnt have any luck from long distance e-mails (in English) with the sources.
If one person in Chicochai had a good contact and a special trick then they aren't going to give us the phone number.
QUOTE
I have a friend who also collected jades just came back from a visit to Hong Kong and China and he said he couldn't find any jades that were in high quality in there and if they were any good they asked for an arm and leg. Also, where can one find a piece of archaic jade? Do you mind sharing some of the reliable sources for purchasing archaic jades?
It would depend on the week he visited and who he talked to. You would need to have a long relationship, and the dealer would need to know he can't trick you.
On a quick visit there wouldn't be much to see in shop cabinets, but even with all the luck in the world there are times when you will come up empty handed.
Tony Allen for example has (more so in the past) some very prolific sources of real artefacts but he was never offered jades. Either they don't come as far as Hong Kong markets very often or else there are simply only a small amount of jades as a % being found vis-a-vis ceramics & bronze.
Both would be correct IMO.
I know one successful jade collector and he has said that his sources just don't get them anymore. It suggest in that instance the grave robbers who sourced them ran out of graves (quite terrible to think about it really) since they were all of a particular cultural type and abundant for a while.
I don't especially look for jade. I only have seen a couple of unremarkable small pieces that looked OK on e-bay. One was a few broken thin drilled pieces from a Han era burial suit which I failed to bid on because of the timing. Another was a little anthromorphic jade figure only a few CM high and I let Chad Herrington know about it and he got it in the auction.
It must have been OK since he never said otherwise and he sent me a couple of bronze Zhou swords after that as a gift (Kind of unexpected...they are the 2 on the link to CHF I gave earlier about markets in China http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=13202 )
I have an honest source in Taiwan I get ancient bronzes from who has a few jades at most times. The only ones I looked at closely were really small discs about the size of a coin but I am sure he had other stuff too, just he never pulls it all out untill I ask about something. I don't really talk jade much though in recent years.
You need to find a source who is honest, but I don't even worry about jades myself. I have a niche and I think even the most honest people can make mistakes when jades are concerned. Basically real jades would be very rare, unless you want something really minor perhaps, and then even if you saw it you couldn't always be 100% sure it was ancient or not.
Theres not really anyone I could suggest for a reliable source because for all the reasons I gave above the nature of supply of jade would not allow for a reliable source.
I am leaving for Taiwan tommorow BTW. My e-mail while there is gustavvontempsky@hotmail.com If you send me your address I might be able to send some pictures, although I am a little reluctant to source jades. I know he is honest & a friend but I never completely trust the jade itself.
Still if he did have 'high-quality' jades of other sorts I expect he would charge an arm and a leg just like everyone else. If a person did any less then they would be insane. Even for his better class bronzes unless you have many thousands of dollars you don't need in your wallet then you won't be owning them.
High quality jades, if they are found, would be real treasures and priced accordingly.
Probably wont be on CHF for at least 3 weeks BTW.
Nothing have changed there for 7 yrs, a faker calls other fakers a fraud. The hideous theories from the shop owner who sell the junk in her garage, tailor made from Factory in China, then stayed in there for a while, finally the obvious fake junks are dug up from Aussie outback, but still be authentic in their eyes with Chinese Culture violation, ridiculous surface alteration from The Neolithic to The Qing, all stones are from the same mountain, all the fools have no way to go, but buying from them with life-time guarantee (how long they are gonna live?). Off course!!! she and the shop who own the forum can get away from being sue as a fraud....so many excuses to sell the craps there. I think the junks showing there are made from the same factory.
They have Acta Geologica Taiwanica, Mineralogical Studies of Chinese Archaic Jade 1996 as a bible, but these kinds of mineral phenomena is not going to happen in all of the jade artifacts, and they are rare case. Why all of the junk selling there have it all...miracle ha?
The worst is they call the museum jade professors and the world renowned action houses specialists are stupid. And museum jades are after cleaning process, how they clean the engrave lines, high and low relief if the jade look like what they have selling there...no body in that forum can answer.
David is still using his microscope to look at over 1000 pieces of fake eBay Hongshan jade from 2001 to 2007, just to confirm that he had bought the authentic one from the fake factory, can't wait to see his discovery being published.
Only the faithful customers of the shop and the Aussie are still survive in those fraud forum, those who disagreed will be banned, just like me.
Anita Mui
Hi Anita,
I am aware you were banned. After you left there was a sudden emboldening of the members to post pictures of their monstrous fakes again.
I made the mistake of replying a couple of times and as a result was called names and told I was ignorant (even about ancient Chinese weapons no less!).
Chicochai forum is a mutual-support group for collectors of fakes and so it is natural they defend the dealers who they are paying money to.
There are occasionally competent collectors who appear there, and one mystery to me is why people like Russ, and later Bill, would bother to post on the forum.
Here is a notable disccusion that occured on a thread after I had backed off. Trish and her supposed customers ridiculed this Mr. Sun. The discussions there really are amazing. This article and then Russ's extracted comments are worth adding here though.
The comments of this archaeologist on the rarity and great value of ancient jades were scoffed at by members, one said 'a load of baloney' while Trish joked 'this Sun doesn't shine too brightly'.
The joke is on them however as they purchase big bulky modern forgeries.
Even MarkG claims the idea jade is 'rare' like I said was un-intellient since he claims '5,000' HongShan jades come from a single site. In truth he took a Xinhua article figure, almost certainly a total # of all items found, since by all accounts the total number of jades found in all excavations is much lower than MarkG's site....i.e even in Guo Dashuns excavation where several hundred artefacts were found there was a score of jades recovered from massive tombs of the ruling class. This % & # was still enough to make the site the most famous HongShan site in China.
Those people who think that enough jades are often found in China so hundreds or even thousands to come to the West yearly for sale on the internet are not interested undersandably in the comments of HongShan expers like Mr. Sun.
Again, a reference to how UNLIKE the jades such people collect actually look like the real museum and excavation examples.
As a side note while overseas I was able to view jades from Sanxingdui at the ACM in Singapore (on loan) and other Chengdu culture jades from 3,000 years ago.
The jades there include unique Sichuan styles, as well as ge and tsong. I could see dirt on the surface as they had not been tampered with. They were lustrous and more or less 'as new'.
Funny how Chicochai forum members jades, even from the Qing period, apart from being grotesque and bulky, are universally stained white and pockmarked on the surfaces.
At the Taipei NPM I saw many jades and some were excavated in the 1930's. Dirt, ochre and even dirt & ochre on the same piece could be seen again on the lustrous surfaces.
The only alterations were partial or complete chickenbone whitening on a notable minority. This whitening however did not 'pool' in the carved recesses in the consisent way that Chicochai members jades do. These were actual jades from 4,000-2,000 years old.
The real Zhou jades were mostly thin, looked delicate, and were small. Beautiful objects. The neolithic ones had very few signs of alteration as a general rule. Tooling marks & flaws were more visible as signs of antiquity more than any eroded surfaces.
Sigh.
But what's the point of telling such people?
The Chicocahi jade pals really are a very strange bunch if they claim to admire ancient jades and yet scoff at all the benchmarks that their pieces might be compared to and denounce the 'experts' who personally excavate such items.
I am aware you were banned. After you left there was a sudden emboldening of the members to post pictures of their monstrous fakes again.
I made the mistake of replying a couple of times and as a result was called names and told I was ignorant (even about ancient Chinese weapons no less!).
Chicochai forum is a mutual-support group for collectors of fakes and so it is natural they defend the dealers who they are paying money to.
There are occasionally competent collectors who appear there, and one mystery to me is why people like Russ, and later Bill, would bother to post on the forum.
Here is a notable disccusion that occured on a thread after I had backed off. Trish and her supposed customers ridiculed this Mr. Sun. The discussions there really are amazing. This article and then Russ's extracted comments are worth adding here though.
The comments of this archaeologist on the rarity and great value of ancient jades were scoffed at by members, one said 'a load of baloney' while Trish joked 'this Sun doesn't shine too brightly'.
The joke is on them however as they purchase big bulky modern forgeries.
Even MarkG claims the idea jade is 'rare' like I said was un-intellient since he claims '5,000' HongShan jades come from a single site. In truth he took a Xinhua article figure, almost certainly a total # of all items found, since by all accounts the total number of jades found in all excavations is much lower than MarkG's site....i.e even in Guo Dashuns excavation where several hundred artefacts were found there was a score of jades recovered from massive tombs of the ruling class. This % & # was still enough to make the site the most famous HongShan site in China.
Those people who think that enough jades are often found in China so hundreds or even thousands to come to the West yearly for sale on the internet are not interested undersandably in the comments of HongShan expers like Mr. Sun.
QUOTE
Author: Bill
Date: Mar 20, 2007 12:34
Member since: Jul 8, 2006 08:49
IP: x.x.208.10
This is the rest of the translation of the article regarding an interview with Mr. Sun. The reason for my posting this article is not to agree or disagree with anybody. However, in order to truly embrace a hobby it will be very unwise not to hear about the opinions of other collectors (especially an expert who was credited in bringing the Hongshan culture to the attention of the world outside China) and since Hongshan culture did originate in China (or inner Mongolia). Therefor I think we should keep any open mind when we read the article and treat it as it is: just the expression of personal opinions of a Hongshan jade collectors/expert in China and should not be too critical.
Sometimes I believe Mr. Sun is quite vague and I think may be he did it on purpose because I believe he doesnt want to share everything with other collectors. Chinese always want to hold something back and may be when he writes his own book he will include them there. All his ideas are very general and not very specific. The interesting part is that while he doesnt believe there are many authentic Hongshan jades existed in the current market (100+) and there are only about 10 19 authentic pieces entering the market each year, he does believe it is still possible to find authentic Hongshan pieces in the current market. He is not hostile to fakes and he believes fakes have their unique purposes and survival values. If a modern carver (forger) can capture the “spirit” of the Hongshan culture and not just the forms of Hongshan jades, then it will be beneficial for the future development of the culture. He did abhor any Hongshan fakes that totally murder the original spirit of Hongshan culture. He says the key to tell an authentic Hongshan jade piece is to “feel” it, feel its spirit and not just focus on its form. He believes many Hongshan jades are created in a way that the artist can express his intimate relationship with mother nature and therefore many of them are made in the forms of different animals and insects.
I believe his viewpoints are quite philosophical and yet may be close to the truth in appraising Hongshan jades. I believe in the collecting of any antiquities including Chinese one, sometime the “feel is more important than anything. One of the authors I admire the most is Elizabeth Lowell who is famous in writing romance novels. However, she seems to be extremely knowledgeable with the collecting of Chinese bronzes, Jades, pearl, Gem stones, etc. She wrote several books all with precious stones in their titles (Amber Beach, Jade Island, Pearl Cove) and they are extremely entertaining and I suggest all Jade lovers should read the Jade Island. In one of her earlier books, Tell Me No Lies, it talks about the story of an American Bronze expert, Lindsay who was born in China who has the uncanny ability to tell a fake bronze from an authentic one. When she appraises a bronze piece she uses her sense to feel the piece, even though everything may be correct about the piece -the form, the material, the patina and even the testing , somehow it just didnt feel right to her, she will know immediately that it is a fake
She was always correct in her feeling. Therefore, I believe either you have it or you do not. If you do not have it, you may never get it, that is, the special “feel” or innate ability a natural collector may possess to admire the beauty of an authentic piece.
http://3w+.cangnet.com/html/200509/2005092013405935.html
An interview with Hongshan Archaic Jade Expert Mr. Sun Shou-dao
Source: Market of Arts: Year 2004 Vol. 7 Reporter: Liu Xin-liang Sept. 20, 2005 13:35:38
Discussion of fakes in the current market and the milestones of the development of fakes in each dynasty
(skip first paragraph introduction by the reporter)
Reporter: Mr. Sun, you are a Hongshan Archaic Jade expert. The current situation of forging Hongshan jades has become very critical, what are your current views toward all these confusion in the current Hongshan jade market? Are most of these forged jades originated from north-eastern China or inner Mongolia?
Mr. Sun: Almost all the Hongshan jades available in the current (Chinese) market are fakes. There are just no other ways around it. Every dealer in the market claims their jades are authentic. You try to teach them how to distinguish the real things from the fakes. They turn around and learn how to fake them better. Therefore, the fake one become real and the real one actually become fakes. Presently, a lot of books to distinguish between real and fake jades have been published. Related to Hongshan jades, there were two books published in Taiwan and two in mainland China. To have books published are great because it provides the novice collectors with knowledge in telling real jades from fake jades. It encourages the popularity of the hobby but in the same time it also provides the sources for the forgers to fake their jades. I have been thinking in how to deal with this problem. My first battleground is taking pictures at archaeological sites: participated in archaeological excavations and subsequent researches. Originally there were not many Hongshan jades being excavated, only about 100+ pieces. Later, there were more archaeological discoveries and the number of stuff being excavated increased proportionally. Due to the wide spread of Hongshan culture, from the north of He Bei (Ho Pei), to the east of inner Mongolia and the west of Nuehling, across all three provinces and their borders. We cannot pin point problem in any one of the three provinces. However, although there are so many fakes in the current market, I can rule out the possibility in finding authentic one. The key is how to discover the real jade from all these fake jades. This is our ultimate goal but it is also the biggest obstacle. Therefore when we look at the market of cultural arts (collectibles), we must expand our scope of searching. We need to allow the accumulation of all jades including the fake one, then takes time to eliminate the fakes from the real ones. We should consider all fakes as authentic so that we will not miss anything. Even though there are fakes, we should allow their existence and should not destroy them. If for some reasons we mistaken the real things as fakes and destroy them, it will be very regrettable. There are still real Hongshan jades in the market. For example, in the Pau Jian Yuan in Beijing (北京潘家园) I have a friend gone there all the time to search for real Hongshan jades and he found five to six authentic pieces. Some are even very good. The varieties and styles of some of these authentic Hongshan jades have never been seen before. There will be always fakes mixed with real stuffs in the market. If there are no real stuff, there wont be any fakes. We cannot claim real stuffs are always the best and in the same token we cannot say all fakes are bad. Sometimes everything is just all mixed up.
Reporter: You originally believe that there are only about 100+ pieces of authentic Hongshan jades exist in the current market, however with so many archaeological finds and excavations and with such excitements in the archaic jade market, there have been many more jade transactions, do you think the number of Hongshan archaic jades is increasing?
Sun: Yes, I believe there will be 10 to 19 more pieces of archaic jades entering the market every year**. There are many people and dealers who live around the Hongshan cultural area who have been digging for Hongshan jades. We are the only authorized archaeological team who are supposed excavate legally. We have discovered some authentic stuff and are afraid to have them published. If we resist publishing them, then they will not start appearing in the market (refer to fakes). Once we publish them, it will not take long for forged stuffs appear all over the market. They will expand the forgery into a large scale because this is a common phenomenon in the current market. Therefore if you ask me in how to judge the current market of cultural collectibles, this is not an easy question to answer. Yes, there are many fakes, but we cannot rule out the existence of the real Mccoys. There are definitely authentic Hongshan jades still available. Give you a personal example, I have viewed more than ten thousands of Hongshan pieces in Hong Kong, Taiwan and Sin Yan and I have very mixed feelings. Previously, there were many pieces of Hongshan jades in Hong Kong and Taiwan. A few years ago, those dealers came to China and bought fifty to sixty thousand pieces of Hongshan jades. Some they have to spend more than ten million dollars to purchase. According to my opinion, I do not believe there are so many authentic Hongshan jades. You are luck if you can find more than 10 pieces. Therefore, even auction companies will not accept consignment of Hongshan pieces so readily. From all the Hongshan jades I have seen, plus what are available in the market and displayed in museums, I believe there are about 1000+ (below 2000) authentic Hongshan pieces. Therefore we cannot forsake the current market of cultural collectibles because even though both fakes and real stuff are coming out of this market, but with future excavations (illegal) we will definitely discover some real Hongshan jades here.
(to be continued)
Reporter: What is your view on the current flood of Hongshan jades into the market?
Sun: There are lots of Hongshan jades out there and the market is complex. We need to focus on two things: First is to look at the original works and see if they are truly jades made during the Hongshan period; Secondly, we need to look at their ages, including when they were forged. With so many Hongshan pieces in the current market, it is not possible for all them belong to Hongshan period because there were imitation Hongshan pieces during different Chinese dynasties. However, I believe there are more new Hongshan fakes than old fakes. How should we look at the problem of new fakes? My personal view is that if old stuff disappear, then even the new stuff will become valuable. For example, in museum, they have quite a few forged items. One reason is they use them for displays and exhibitions; another reason is that real stuffs have become rare and they need to be protected. After a while, even reproduction pieces will justify their presences. Another type (of fakes) is the “remake” of Hongshan archaic jades. This is both an artistic phenomenon and a crafting arts phenomenon because the artists rejuvenate their artistic innovations. I believe this is a good sign. They inherit the superb tradition of Hongshan culture, yet conserve the Hongshan styles, but in the mean time they interject their bold imaginations and creativities into the new pieces. We should allow them to inherit, expand and create because only then we will have new innovations. There is a mystic force in the jades of Neolithic cultures, their intensity are so profound and are loved by many people. To limit their inheritance and development will be cruel. I dont think that will be right. I believe what they are doing is a tribute to the Hongshan culture. However, this is totally different with some forgers who just imported some Indian gods to China and called them Hongshan culture or bring the little mermaid from Hans Christian Andersons fairly tales and call it Hongshan culture. These resulted in laughing matters to the whole hobby. They do not admit these pieces are made from their own subjective imaginations nor can they say what type of styles they are imitating, but they insist their final products are that of Hongshan. This is the kind of forgery that lacks culture and should not be valued.** Therefore while we lament the fact that forgeries (of Hongshan jades) have become widespread, without any rules and patterns, sometimes even out of place and grotesque, at least it will improve our abilities and wisdom in the appraisals of such objects.
Reporter: How many times had Hongshan jades been reproduced during the history of China? Are there any peak periods? For example, Sung dynasty imitations, Qing dynasty imitations, Republic of China imitations, just like Qing (Emperior Yung Ching) imitated Sung dynasty ceramics, etc. What is your view toward this phenomenon of imitation (of Hongshan jades)?
Sun: To forge is almost unavoidable because it has been happening since ancient time to the present. During Qing Qianlong time, Hongshan jades were already very popular, therefore some Hongshan jades even have the stamp (or writing?) of Emperor Qianlong. Apparently, many collectors already focused on Hongshan jades in Qing dynasty and many forgeries were available. Now we cannot find paintings from Tang dynasty but we can see lots of Tang imitation pieces (paintings) made during Sung dynasty.
Therefore we should judge the problem of forgery objectively and cannot just say it is not good to forge. We should judge it with its overall contribution to the whole Chinese history. Almost most of the stuff currently available in the market are new fakes, that means they were reproduced currently by people, but there are a few fakes that came from Qing dynasty or the Republic of China era (1911-1948). You can almost tell the fakes just by their market prices. When you negotiate, if the dealer will let you have the piece for RMB $80 - $160 (US$ 10 to 20), do you think it can be real? ..On the other hand, even some high-priced items may not be authentic because some buyers believe if the prices are high enough then they must be real. The seller understands this way of thinking and therefore they will put high price stickers on their items. In general, most real Hongshan jades are in the RMB$100,000 to over RMB$1,000,000 price range, how can ordinary people afford them?**
Reporter: There seem to be many different topics and forms of Hongshan archaic jades. With such profound and broad cultural backgrounds, therefore they have been attracting many collectors and admirers. Would you talk about the origin of Hongshan culture, the topics and intrinsic values, forms and characteristics of Hongshan jades?
Sun: Hongshan jades had reached its peaks after the continued development of several thousand years. Prior to the Hongshan culture, there was about eight thousand years history, and when it reached the Hongshan era, there was a tremendous explosion, a full-scale explosion. The Hongshan culture has a very intimate relationship with the mother nature, it is closely related to the beauty of the everyday life of a northern tribe and it meets the needs of such northern tribe. The topics of Hongshan jades include a large varieties of animals (include insects or everything that can move): e.g. dragon fly, bat, eagle, goose, frog, grasshopper, butterfly, bee. Almost every tiny creature in mother nature were used as topics in the creation of Hongshan jades. You can see these in the current market. In reality, there is not enough study in comparing the early, middle and late period of Hongshan jades and there are much works to be done. The characteristics and forms of the Hongshan culture had been used in early Chinese paintings: its simplicity and antiquity is full of profound cultural flavor. Therefore we may apply the same principles used for appraising other Chinese arts on Hongshan jades. Some said the peak of Art perfection has been achieved with Hongshan culture and I believe this may be true. Hongshan culture serves as an origin. The number one characteristic of Hongshan archaic jades is not in their forms, but rather it is in their spirits and essences. It is this feeling of ambiguity, impenetrableness and mystery that is difficult to describe. The coexistence of abstract and logical concepts is displayed both vividly and powerfully on all Hongshan jades but with clear distinction on each piece. We should not look down upon such early culture, sometimes modern culture is barbaric but early culture is actually more civilized. Such way of thinking consists of profound philosophy. Many forged items can only capture its form but not its spirit.
Reporter: Since the archaic jade market is a vital part of the overall cultural market, what is your view toward its future and how should we maintain such market?
Sun: The future development of the jade market will depend on your magazine (Market of Arts) (he laughs, saying it seriously.) Presently there are many experts and more and more people fall in love with Hongshan jades. A few related books were published and some are BIG books (with lots of information). Many writers ask experts to write introductions for their books and examine their books before publishing. However, if just 80% of jade items displayed on those books are real, it will be fantastic. There are now so many auction companies, even though they all hire experts, they still cannot avoid selling forged items. The fact that there are more and more collectors and jade items is a good thing because it indicates the strength of the current market. There is no way to stop the growth of the market but how to keep it on the right track will be critical.
Reporter: How should we appraise Hongshan jades? What are the keys and what will the problem areas be?
Sun: Every collector will be ripped off when they start collecting, this is a normal growth process. There is no way around it. You always have to pay tuition (to learn). Of course some will pay higher tuitions than the others but nobody can avoid it. There are many places now offer training courses in how to perform appraisals. There are many ads on your magazine offer such courses. This is a side product of market explosion. On one hand it shows the current market is red-hot and on the other hand it shows the collectors total involvements in the current market. How to appraise is a special skill and the key is to “feel” (truly sense and understand it). Even if there are many keys but if you cannot feel or fail to feel, it wont do you any good even I repeat everything to you. Both antique and jades have their critical weaknesses and these are their keys. (This sentence is hard to translate) If you can grasp these keys, control them, you will know what to do with them. The current market is a world filled with both truth and falseness (means authentic and fake jades), there is no world with just truth alone nor is there a world filled with falseness only, nobody can totally escape it. Whether you are successful or not will depend on the degree of your “feel”.
(*According to the article, Mr. Sun had been involved in the excavation and research of Hongshan cultures for over 50 years. He had been working in different museum including the one in Niuheliang. He had participated in the excavation and study of Neolithic caves and tombs during the 50s and 60s and help in the identification of large group of Hongshan jades in the 70s and helped traced the origin of dragon to over five thousand years ago. In 1983 he led in the discovery of some of the famous Hongshan sites (see below) at Niuheliang, west part of the Liaoning province.)
-----------------------------------
Author: Bill
Date: Mar 20, 2007 12:45
Member since: Jul 8, 2006 08:49
IP: x.x.208.10
In the first paragraph, it should be"I cannot rule out the possibliliyt of finind authentic Hongshan jades" in the current market", not "I can rule out....". Sorry for the error.
------------------------------------------------
Author: Russ
Date: Mar 20, 2007 13:36
Member since: Dec 4, 2002 18:47
IP: x.x.7.193
Bill,
Thank you for translating this article for us and posting it here. That was a lot of work, and everyone here I am sure appreciates your time and generosity in sharing it with us.
It gives us an idea of the problem with the flood of fakes out there.
My wish would be that everyone here could have the opportunity to go through the 15 volume set "The Complete Collection of Jades Unearthed in China", which may still be available through Paragon Books.
It has over 3,000 high quality photos, all of documented excavated jades, mostly from neolithic through han periods, most never before published. These are jades held in the archaeological insitutes and regional museums throughout China, not even on display but in the storerooms. You cannot help but learn to recognize what genuine ancient jades look like after viewing this set.
Interestingly, all of the jades are small, with none of the large elaborate jades we see posted here so often
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
& Russ (replying to the usual sparring patners);
.....Of course I believe in surface alterations and weathering. The 15 volume set on excavated jades in China which I would hope you would read is full of an unbelievable range of alterations, though virtually none resemble what you {...meaning Trish Wilson...a dealer in the questionable jades being discussed....} continue to post here.
Further, I am no great supporter of high-priced galleries or auction houses. What I am a believer in is correlating jades we post on this forum with jades that we know to be from excavated digs, and therefore a benchmark of authenticity.
In the hundreds of postings on this forum of your vast collection, what is striking is how similar the "weathering" is regardless of the period the jades are supposedly from.
------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mar 20, 2007 12:34
Member since: Jul 8, 2006 08:49
IP: x.x.208.10
This is the rest of the translation of the article regarding an interview with Mr. Sun. The reason for my posting this article is not to agree or disagree with anybody. However, in order to truly embrace a hobby it will be very unwise not to hear about the opinions of other collectors (especially an expert who was credited in bringing the Hongshan culture to the attention of the world outside China) and since Hongshan culture did originate in China (or inner Mongolia). Therefor I think we should keep any open mind when we read the article and treat it as it is: just the expression of personal opinions of a Hongshan jade collectors/expert in China and should not be too critical.
Sometimes I believe Mr. Sun is quite vague and I think may be he did it on purpose because I believe he doesnt want to share everything with other collectors. Chinese always want to hold something back and may be when he writes his own book he will include them there. All his ideas are very general and not very specific. The interesting part is that while he doesnt believe there are many authentic Hongshan jades existed in the current market (100+) and there are only about 10 19 authentic pieces entering the market each year, he does believe it is still possible to find authentic Hongshan pieces in the current market. He is not hostile to fakes and he believes fakes have their unique purposes and survival values. If a modern carver (forger) can capture the “spirit” of the Hongshan culture and not just the forms of Hongshan jades, then it will be beneficial for the future development of the culture. He did abhor any Hongshan fakes that totally murder the original spirit of Hongshan culture. He says the key to tell an authentic Hongshan jade piece is to “feel” it, feel its spirit and not just focus on its form. He believes many Hongshan jades are created in a way that the artist can express his intimate relationship with mother nature and therefore many of them are made in the forms of different animals and insects.
I believe his viewpoints are quite philosophical and yet may be close to the truth in appraising Hongshan jades. I believe in the collecting of any antiquities including Chinese one, sometime the “feel is more important than anything. One of the authors I admire the most is Elizabeth Lowell who is famous in writing romance novels. However, she seems to be extremely knowledgeable with the collecting of Chinese bronzes, Jades, pearl, Gem stones, etc. She wrote several books all with precious stones in their titles (Amber Beach, Jade Island, Pearl Cove) and they are extremely entertaining and I suggest all Jade lovers should read the Jade Island. In one of her earlier books, Tell Me No Lies, it talks about the story of an American Bronze expert, Lindsay who was born in China who has the uncanny ability to tell a fake bronze from an authentic one. When she appraises a bronze piece she uses her sense to feel the piece, even though everything may be correct about the piece -the form, the material, the patina and even the testing , somehow it just didnt feel right to her, she will know immediately that it is a fake
She was always correct in her feeling. Therefore, I believe either you have it or you do not. If you do not have it, you may never get it, that is, the special “feel” or innate ability a natural collector may possess to admire the beauty of an authentic piece.
http://3w+.cangnet.com/html/200509/2005092013405935.html
An interview with Hongshan Archaic Jade Expert Mr. Sun Shou-dao
Source: Market of Arts: Year 2004 Vol. 7 Reporter: Liu Xin-liang Sept. 20, 2005 13:35:38
Discussion of fakes in the current market and the milestones of the development of fakes in each dynasty
(skip first paragraph introduction by the reporter)
Reporter: Mr. Sun, you are a Hongshan Archaic Jade expert. The current situation of forging Hongshan jades has become very critical, what are your current views toward all these confusion in the current Hongshan jade market? Are most of these forged jades originated from north-eastern China or inner Mongolia?
Mr. Sun: Almost all the Hongshan jades available in the current (Chinese) market are fakes. There are just no other ways around it. Every dealer in the market claims their jades are authentic. You try to teach them how to distinguish the real things from the fakes. They turn around and learn how to fake them better. Therefore, the fake one become real and the real one actually become fakes. Presently, a lot of books to distinguish between real and fake jades have been published. Related to Hongshan jades, there were two books published in Taiwan and two in mainland China. To have books published are great because it provides the novice collectors with knowledge in telling real jades from fake jades. It encourages the popularity of the hobby but in the same time it also provides the sources for the forgers to fake their jades. I have been thinking in how to deal with this problem. My first battleground is taking pictures at archaeological sites: participated in archaeological excavations and subsequent researches. Originally there were not many Hongshan jades being excavated, only about 100+ pieces. Later, there were more archaeological discoveries and the number of stuff being excavated increased proportionally. Due to the wide spread of Hongshan culture, from the north of He Bei (Ho Pei), to the east of inner Mongolia and the west of Nuehling, across all three provinces and their borders. We cannot pin point problem in any one of the three provinces. However, although there are so many fakes in the current market, I can rule out the possibility in finding authentic one. The key is how to discover the real jade from all these fake jades. This is our ultimate goal but it is also the biggest obstacle. Therefore when we look at the market of cultural arts (collectibles), we must expand our scope of searching. We need to allow the accumulation of all jades including the fake one, then takes time to eliminate the fakes from the real ones. We should consider all fakes as authentic so that we will not miss anything. Even though there are fakes, we should allow their existence and should not destroy them. If for some reasons we mistaken the real things as fakes and destroy them, it will be very regrettable. There are still real Hongshan jades in the market. For example, in the Pau Jian Yuan in Beijing (北京潘家园) I have a friend gone there all the time to search for real Hongshan jades and he found five to six authentic pieces. Some are even very good. The varieties and styles of some of these authentic Hongshan jades have never been seen before. There will be always fakes mixed with real stuffs in the market. If there are no real stuff, there wont be any fakes. We cannot claim real stuffs are always the best and in the same token we cannot say all fakes are bad. Sometimes everything is just all mixed up.
Reporter: You originally believe that there are only about 100+ pieces of authentic Hongshan jades exist in the current market, however with so many archaeological finds and excavations and with such excitements in the archaic jade market, there have been many more jade transactions, do you think the number of Hongshan archaic jades is increasing?
Sun: Yes, I believe there will be 10 to 19 more pieces of archaic jades entering the market every year**. There are many people and dealers who live around the Hongshan cultural area who have been digging for Hongshan jades. We are the only authorized archaeological team who are supposed excavate legally. We have discovered some authentic stuff and are afraid to have them published. If we resist publishing them, then they will not start appearing in the market (refer to fakes). Once we publish them, it will not take long for forged stuffs appear all over the market. They will expand the forgery into a large scale because this is a common phenomenon in the current market. Therefore if you ask me in how to judge the current market of cultural collectibles, this is not an easy question to answer. Yes, there are many fakes, but we cannot rule out the existence of the real Mccoys. There are definitely authentic Hongshan jades still available. Give you a personal example, I have viewed more than ten thousands of Hongshan pieces in Hong Kong, Taiwan and Sin Yan and I have very mixed feelings. Previously, there were many pieces of Hongshan jades in Hong Kong and Taiwan. A few years ago, those dealers came to China and bought fifty to sixty thousand pieces of Hongshan jades. Some they have to spend more than ten million dollars to purchase. According to my opinion, I do not believe there are so many authentic Hongshan jades. You are luck if you can find more than 10 pieces. Therefore, even auction companies will not accept consignment of Hongshan pieces so readily. From all the Hongshan jades I have seen, plus what are available in the market and displayed in museums, I believe there are about 1000+ (below 2000) authentic Hongshan pieces. Therefore we cannot forsake the current market of cultural collectibles because even though both fakes and real stuff are coming out of this market, but with future excavations (illegal) we will definitely discover some real Hongshan jades here.
(to be continued)
Reporter: What is your view on the current flood of Hongshan jades into the market?
Sun: There are lots of Hongshan jades out there and the market is complex. We need to focus on two things: First is to look at the original works and see if they are truly jades made during the Hongshan period; Secondly, we need to look at their ages, including when they were forged. With so many Hongshan pieces in the current market, it is not possible for all them belong to Hongshan period because there were imitation Hongshan pieces during different Chinese dynasties. However, I believe there are more new Hongshan fakes than old fakes. How should we look at the problem of new fakes? My personal view is that if old stuff disappear, then even the new stuff will become valuable. For example, in museum, they have quite a few forged items. One reason is they use them for displays and exhibitions; another reason is that real stuffs have become rare and they need to be protected. After a while, even reproduction pieces will justify their presences. Another type (of fakes) is the “remake” of Hongshan archaic jades. This is both an artistic phenomenon and a crafting arts phenomenon because the artists rejuvenate their artistic innovations. I believe this is a good sign. They inherit the superb tradition of Hongshan culture, yet conserve the Hongshan styles, but in the mean time they interject their bold imaginations and creativities into the new pieces. We should allow them to inherit, expand and create because only then we will have new innovations. There is a mystic force in the jades of Neolithic cultures, their intensity are so profound and are loved by many people. To limit their inheritance and development will be cruel. I dont think that will be right. I believe what they are doing is a tribute to the Hongshan culture. However, this is totally different with some forgers who just imported some Indian gods to China and called them Hongshan culture or bring the little mermaid from Hans Christian Andersons fairly tales and call it Hongshan culture. These resulted in laughing matters to the whole hobby. They do not admit these pieces are made from their own subjective imaginations nor can they say what type of styles they are imitating, but they insist their final products are that of Hongshan. This is the kind of forgery that lacks culture and should not be valued.** Therefore while we lament the fact that forgeries (of Hongshan jades) have become widespread, without any rules and patterns, sometimes even out of place and grotesque, at least it will improve our abilities and wisdom in the appraisals of such objects.
Reporter: How many times had Hongshan jades been reproduced during the history of China? Are there any peak periods? For example, Sung dynasty imitations, Qing dynasty imitations, Republic of China imitations, just like Qing (Emperior Yung Ching) imitated Sung dynasty ceramics, etc. What is your view toward this phenomenon of imitation (of Hongshan jades)?
Sun: To forge is almost unavoidable because it has been happening since ancient time to the present. During Qing Qianlong time, Hongshan jades were already very popular, therefore some Hongshan jades even have the stamp (or writing?) of Emperor Qianlong. Apparently, many collectors already focused on Hongshan jades in Qing dynasty and many forgeries were available. Now we cannot find paintings from Tang dynasty but we can see lots of Tang imitation pieces (paintings) made during Sung dynasty.
Therefore we should judge the problem of forgery objectively and cannot just say it is not good to forge. We should judge it with its overall contribution to the whole Chinese history. Almost most of the stuff currently available in the market are new fakes, that means they were reproduced currently by people, but there are a few fakes that came from Qing dynasty or the Republic of China era (1911-1948). You can almost tell the fakes just by their market prices. When you negotiate, if the dealer will let you have the piece for RMB $80 - $160 (US$ 10 to 20), do you think it can be real? ..On the other hand, even some high-priced items may not be authentic because some buyers believe if the prices are high enough then they must be real. The seller understands this way of thinking and therefore they will put high price stickers on their items. In general, most real Hongshan jades are in the RMB$100,000 to over RMB$1,000,000 price range, how can ordinary people afford them?**
Reporter: There seem to be many different topics and forms of Hongshan archaic jades. With such profound and broad cultural backgrounds, therefore they have been attracting many collectors and admirers. Would you talk about the origin of Hongshan culture, the topics and intrinsic values, forms and characteristics of Hongshan jades?
Sun: Hongshan jades had reached its peaks after the continued development of several thousand years. Prior to the Hongshan culture, there was about eight thousand years history, and when it reached the Hongshan era, there was a tremendous explosion, a full-scale explosion. The Hongshan culture has a very intimate relationship with the mother nature, it is closely related to the beauty of the everyday life of a northern tribe and it meets the needs of such northern tribe. The topics of Hongshan jades include a large varieties of animals (include insects or everything that can move): e.g. dragon fly, bat, eagle, goose, frog, grasshopper, butterfly, bee. Almost every tiny creature in mother nature were used as topics in the creation of Hongshan jades. You can see these in the current market. In reality, there is not enough study in comparing the early, middle and late period of Hongshan jades and there are much works to be done. The characteristics and forms of the Hongshan culture had been used in early Chinese paintings: its simplicity and antiquity is full of profound cultural flavor. Therefore we may apply the same principles used for appraising other Chinese arts on Hongshan jades. Some said the peak of Art perfection has been achieved with Hongshan culture and I believe this may be true. Hongshan culture serves as an origin. The number one characteristic of Hongshan archaic jades is not in their forms, but rather it is in their spirits and essences. It is this feeling of ambiguity, impenetrableness and mystery that is difficult to describe. The coexistence of abstract and logical concepts is displayed both vividly and powerfully on all Hongshan jades but with clear distinction on each piece. We should not look down upon such early culture, sometimes modern culture is barbaric but early culture is actually more civilized. Such way of thinking consists of profound philosophy. Many forged items can only capture its form but not its spirit.
Reporter: Since the archaic jade market is a vital part of the overall cultural market, what is your view toward its future and how should we maintain such market?
Sun: The future development of the jade market will depend on your magazine (Market of Arts) (he laughs, saying it seriously.) Presently there are many experts and more and more people fall in love with Hongshan jades. A few related books were published and some are BIG books (with lots of information). Many writers ask experts to write introductions for their books and examine their books before publishing. However, if just 80% of jade items displayed on those books are real, it will be fantastic. There are now so many auction companies, even though they all hire experts, they still cannot avoid selling forged items. The fact that there are more and more collectors and jade items is a good thing because it indicates the strength of the current market. There is no way to stop the growth of the market but how to keep it on the right track will be critical.
Reporter: How should we appraise Hongshan jades? What are the keys and what will the problem areas be?
Sun: Every collector will be ripped off when they start collecting, this is a normal growth process. There is no way around it. You always have to pay tuition (to learn). Of course some will pay higher tuitions than the others but nobody can avoid it. There are many places now offer training courses in how to perform appraisals. There are many ads on your magazine offer such courses. This is a side product of market explosion. On one hand it shows the current market is red-hot and on the other hand it shows the collectors total involvements in the current market. How to appraise is a special skill and the key is to “feel” (truly sense and understand it). Even if there are many keys but if you cannot feel or fail to feel, it wont do you any good even I repeat everything to you. Both antique and jades have their critical weaknesses and these are their keys. (This sentence is hard to translate) If you can grasp these keys, control them, you will know what to do with them. The current market is a world filled with both truth and falseness (means authentic and fake jades), there is no world with just truth alone nor is there a world filled with falseness only, nobody can totally escape it. Whether you are successful or not will depend on the degree of your “feel”.
(*According to the article, Mr. Sun had been involved in the excavation and research of Hongshan cultures for over 50 years. He had been working in different museum including the one in Niuheliang. He had participated in the excavation and study of Neolithic caves and tombs during the 50s and 60s and help in the identification of large group of Hongshan jades in the 70s and helped traced the origin of dragon to over five thousand years ago. In 1983 he led in the discovery of some of the famous Hongshan sites (see below) at Niuheliang, west part of the Liaoning province.)
-----------------------------------
Author: Bill
Date: Mar 20, 2007 12:45
Member since: Jul 8, 2006 08:49
IP: x.x.208.10
In the first paragraph, it should be"I cannot rule out the possibliliyt of finind authentic Hongshan jades" in the current market", not "I can rule out....". Sorry for the error.
------------------------------------------------
Author: Russ
Date: Mar 20, 2007 13:36
Member since: Dec 4, 2002 18:47
IP: x.x.7.193
Bill,
Thank you for translating this article for us and posting it here. That was a lot of work, and everyone here I am sure appreciates your time and generosity in sharing it with us.
It gives us an idea of the problem with the flood of fakes out there.
My wish would be that everyone here could have the opportunity to go through the 15 volume set "The Complete Collection of Jades Unearthed in China", which may still be available through Paragon Books.
It has over 3,000 high quality photos, all of documented excavated jades, mostly from neolithic through han periods, most never before published. These are jades held in the archaeological insitutes and regional museums throughout China, not even on display but in the storerooms. You cannot help but learn to recognize what genuine ancient jades look like after viewing this set.
Interestingly, all of the jades are small, with none of the large elaborate jades we see posted here so often
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& Russ (replying to the usual sparring patners);
.....Of course I believe in surface alterations and weathering. The 15 volume set on excavated jades in China which I would hope you would read is full of an unbelievable range of alterations, though virtually none resemble what you {...meaning Trish Wilson...a dealer in the questionable jades being discussed....} continue to post here.
Further, I am no great supporter of high-priced galleries or auction houses. What I am a believer in is correlating jades we post on this forum with jades that we know to be from excavated digs, and therefore a benchmark of authenticity.
In the hundreds of postings on this forum of your vast collection, what is striking is how similar the "weathering" is regardless of the period the jades are supposedly from.
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Again, a reference to how UNLIKE the jades such people collect actually look like the real museum and excavation examples.
As a side note while overseas I was able to view jades from Sanxingdui at the ACM in Singapore (on loan) and other Chengdu culture jades from 3,000 years ago.
The jades there include unique Sichuan styles, as well as ge and tsong. I could see dirt on the surface as they had not been tampered with. They were lustrous and more or less 'as new'.
Funny how Chicochai forum members jades, even from the Qing period, apart from being grotesque and bulky, are universally stained white and pockmarked on the surfaces.
At the Taipei NPM I saw many jades and some were excavated in the 1930's. Dirt, ochre and even dirt & ochre on the same piece could be seen again on the lustrous surfaces.
The only alterations were partial or complete chickenbone whitening on a notable minority. This whitening however did not 'pool' in the carved recesses in the consisent way that Chicochai members jades do. These were actual jades from 4,000-2,000 years old.
The real Zhou jades were mostly thin, looked delicate, and were small. Beautiful objects. The neolithic ones had very few signs of alteration as a general rule. Tooling marks & flaws were more visible as signs of antiquity more than any eroded surfaces.
Sigh.
But what's the point of telling such people?
The Chicocahi jade pals really are a very strange bunch if they claim to admire ancient jades and yet scoff at all the benchmarks that their pieces might be compared to and denounce the 'experts' who personally excavate such items.
A member of Chicochai who was doing too good a job of comparing fake jades, ala Trish Wilsons pieces, to the real thing had his posts deleted and membership removed.
The purpose of their jade forum is clear. To discuss elaborate fakes like they were real artefacts and decieve the devoted or the new collectors.
These images that were deleted (posted by Daisai) I add here and they speak for themselves. They were created by Anita.
Most are pointing out errors in these supposed 'Han' dynasty jade belt hooks.
Note, belt hooks curve to fit the belly, there are domes are rear to atach to the leather belt, etc. These hooks are highly decorated fakes and one design (mask) is clearly copied from a jade from the King of Nanyue's tomb.
These modern made fakes are carved with no real understanding of the originals.
Bronze belthooks of functional form can be seen here, on the first post the rear domes are visible.
http://z8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_Cent...hp?showtopic=23
The purpose of their jade forum is clear. To discuss elaborate fakes like they were real artefacts and decieve the devoted or the new collectors.
These images that were deleted (posted by Daisai) I add here and they speak for themselves. They were created by Anita.
Most are pointing out errors in these supposed 'Han' dynasty jade belt hooks.
Note, belt hooks curve to fit the belly, there are domes are rear to atach to the leather belt, etc. These hooks are highly decorated fakes and one design (mask) is clearly copied from a jade from the King of Nanyue's tomb.
These modern made fakes are carved with no real understanding of the originals.
Bronze belthooks of functional form can be seen here, on the first post the rear domes are visible.
http://z8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_Cent...hp?showtopic=23
"Fakers calling each other a FAKE" This Chicochai forum is the perfectly fool tool for beginners and those uncertain of their ability to judge should NOT follow in an effort to learn.
Museum jades and World renounded Genuine Collectios are "clean", Chairman Mao put the fake jades in all of China museums, and sell the authentic pieces to overseas, Communist Party is capable of everything, these are the excuses of Chico's forum in order to make up the fraud theories to support thier sales of FAKE jades.
Museum jades and World Renounded Genuine collection never been cleaned apart from tooth brushes and shampoo, because they have intention to sell in the future when the price is "right" why they have to destroy the evidence of age? this is the rule and regulation that all the museum curators have to follow, so museum jades have never been renovated, polished, sand blasting etc...
It is perfectly understandable that Trish Wilson is a fraud dealer who scoff at books, and published jades from documented excavated sites. If she spent the time to actually see what genuine ancient jades look like, she would have a lot of trouble with the fact that her jades don't resemble the real thing.
She is said to be "The proud owner of what is most certainly the largest accumulation of archaic Chinese fakes ever assembled, with dismissive, naughty know-it-all attitude".
If you post something against her fake pieces, and she has no answer about it, she will say:
"If you dont understand what I have posted here, you never will. I have no desire to discuss anything further with you, as it would simply be an exercise in futility."
"If you didnt get the point of my post, there is really nothing more to say about it."
"I do not suffer fools, so will not be responding to you in future. "
"Diasai, You are part of the problem. If you don't understand what it is, there is no one on earth who could explain it."
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TO BE CONTINUED
FYI
Anita Mui
Pls follow the link "Big Jade Faker on the net"
http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/subforum....1764&sfid=4
Deleted by poster
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