Been bothering me for a long while.

With and without various types of armour, how many sabre cuts or spear thrusts will be required for a soldier to get mortally wounded or dead immediately?

I got slashed once long time ago, across my back. The pain is excruciating, but never life threatening. Some stitches in hospital and i am ok. Heard from a distant friend, he got stabbed in the stomach once while being mugged and he nearly fainted from the pain and blood lost.

So anyone have answers or share something about my questions? Much appreciated.

One, just one strike on the right place would be enough to kill a man. Like a stabb in the heard, on the neck, or cutting someones head off would be immediat kill. A wound on the leg cutting the main artery would cause a man to die withing few minutes. A stabb on the belly if piercing guts or stomach would also be fatal considering the medical technology of ancient times. Of course, one must penetrat the armor of one's adversary first.

True, i could shoot somebody 10,000 times in their legs and they still wouldn't die. But if you find the right place, you can kill someone with your finger!!!

Actually i didn't make my questions properly it seems. I was trying to find out how effective are various types and parts of armour against attacks like a arrow, spear thrust, sabre slash, etc?

Some facts:

1650 - Cossaks had a fight with Dahurs in the burg of Prince Guigudar on Amur. Cossaks were in brigandines and attacked defenders with sabers and spears. They lost 4 men and killed 661 Dahurs (non-combatants included). I believe than only about 300 of them were Dahur's warriors.

1651 - Cossaks had a fight with Achans in the burg of Achansk on Amur. Cossaks (206) defeated Achans (more than 1000) by killing more then 300 of them and only 1 Cossak was killed by Achans.

1652 - Cossaks were attacked by Manchu cavalry near the burg of Achansk. 10 Cossaks were killed at the spot. Others escaped and closed in the burg. Then Manchu tried to assault the burg but were defeated. Cossaks fired a big cannon into the opening in the wall of the burg and destroyed the best Manchu warriors. Then they started to fight with sabers and won. Oficially Cossaks lost 10 killed in action and 78 wounded. Oficially (by Russian report) Manchu army lost 676 killed in action.

1686 - Cossaks and regular soldiers (so called Streltsy) were besieged in the wagenburg for 3 days by Mongols. There were about 3000 Mongols and 500 Russians. 17 Russians were killed within 3 days and 250 wounded with arrows. Russian troops had to withdraw. Mongols lost several dozens of killed and heavily wounded by Russian bullets.

1689 - One Cossak was encircled by a group of Mongols who shot him with their bows. They need 12 arrows to kill him.

1871 - Koreans fought with US marines in the fort of Kwangsungjin. Koreans fired their matchlocks, then threw stones and then ised their sabers. US mariners lost 3 killed in action and about a dozen of wounded. Koreans lost 243 killed in action. The first American killed was the Lieutenant Hugh McKee. He climbed the wall, but got a bullet in the groin, then he was thrusted with a spear and slashed with a saber. He was found after the battle alive but he died due to the sepsis. He had 19 wounds from bullet, spears and sabers!

Well it depends, how much are you paying me ? You want your death custom made or just you usual high quality, mass-delieved thing I normally provide ?

To: Altaica Militarica, Solid Snake and Thirdgumi

Nearly forgotten about this thread till someone "bumped" it up and I found something in my reading on this subject. Basically there is 2 school of thoughts here, "system shock" hypothesis and "critical wound" theory to summarize my findings that is. And i found an article appended below (lost the link, sorry). It is about bullet ballistics but it gave me a understanding of how it is to kill with a projectile, ie arrows too. Would be asking my family doctor about it when i go for my body checkup.

Mechanics of Projectile Wounding

In order to predict the likelihood of incapacitation with any handgun round, an understanding of the mechanics of wounding is necessary. There are four components of projectile wounding.6 Not all of these components relate to incapacitation, but each of them must be considered. They are:

1. Penetration. The tissue through which the projectile passes, and which it disrupts or destroys.
2. Permanent Cavity. The volume of space once occupied by tissue that has been destroyed by the passage of the projectile. This is a function of penetration and the frontal area of the projectile. Quite simply, it is the hole left by the passage of the bullet.
3. Temporary Cavity. The expansion of the permanent cavity by stretching due to the transfer of kinetic energy during the projectile's passage.
4. Fragmentation. Projectile pieces or secondary fragments of bone which are impelled outward from the permanent cavity and may sever muscle tissues, blood vessels, etc., apart from the permanent cavity.Fragmentation is not necessarily present in every projectile wound. It may, or may not, occur and can be considered a secondary effect.

Projectiles incapacitate by damaging or destroying the central nervous system, or by causing lethal blood loss. To the extent the wound components cause or increase the effects of these two mechanisms, the likelihood of incapacitation increases.

Yeah, I also forgot this thread.

BTW, where did you get those infos from Altaica Militarica?

So you're going to ignore things like being poisoned ? Cause you know, I am sure that can kill you too. Especially considering how poison are added to arrows and such.

Yes it would most likely be fatal, but it unless you hit a vital organ or an artery, a stab to the gut/intestines would be rather slow, days and very painful. You would most likely die of peritonitis. It could take a week or more. If you have enough adrenalin in a battle you would be able to continue in the battle. Once the heat of the battle was gone then you would wish that you had died in it.

I think one of the key problem with this whole topic is that people can die for apparantly no reason while at the same time be able to survive with as much as 3/4 of their brain removed.

I've heard of some amazing things such as surviving NORMALLY with half your brain removed, but 3/4? Can you tell me where you got that?

it was a case back in the mid 90s in the US. A man had a rare form of neuro-bacteria/virus/forgot-which, which were eating away at the brain. It was actually a very slow process but the guy never saw a doctor as the only symptom was low fever. It was only when his motor functions and eyesight started to get dodgy that they concluded that he needed surgery. When his brain was opened up, they discovered that the bacteria/virus/whatever had already infected the majority of the brain and they had to remove bits and peices of it out. Lucky for him, only grey matter from the cortex were removed and no white matter was touched. If I recall, most of the infection was in the frontal and parietal lobe but on the whole, those bugger were everywhere. I never read up on what happened to the guy afterwards though.

It's amazing how the brain can adapt to its circumstances, but when you cut off even one limb of the body, it bleeds to death.

You can safely amputate a limb under a controlled environment just as you can conduct brain surgery. But if you cut off the arm and just leave it like that, you will bleed to death just like if I swiped off a slice of your head. It is still less black and white, but in a few years, I suspect the matter is no longer what you are missing as opposed to in what condition did you lose them in.

Ah, but the brain can reconnect many of its neural activities and can function almost as well(if not just as well) with only half the normal amount. Cut off half a hand and we'll see how hard that poor person would have to cope with it. Another interesting example is that people with amputated body parts(lets say an arm) would over time be able to feel that missing arm when another part of their body was touched, all thanks to the brain. Ingenious. Of course, this only amounts to the left half/the right half of the brain. Cut off half of the left and half of the right and the person might as well drop dead on the spot.

Tsk, tsk, tsk, Is someone planning a murder?

^There's a fine line between eating half a person's brain and murder, such as eating the entire person.

The depends on which half.
If the 'half' includes the Cerebellum, then yeah. You will die.
But if the half includes only the outer surface of the cortex, no, you can pretty much survive it

Had a brief discussion with family doctor on this. He used the term "trauma injury" for injuries in the killing fields and explained that most casualties are are in fact injuries and many of them dying later. He also mentioned "shock" is the leading cause of death too. Yes, good that you brought up adrenaline to this discussion. Not too sure about ancient times but it is not unheard of to see insurgents in Iraq continuously charging despite being shot several times with 5.56mm bullets. I suppose this would be applicable to the battlefield too ie. arrows, cutting wounds, etc.

Though having a broken bone or being cut or impaled may not kill someone, the following infection may bring death.

The Norse Vikings had warriors called Berserkers, they worked themselves into a frenzy, foaming at the mouth and ranting and raving as they fought. They were said to be unstoppable.
If you have ever been in a fist fight, you don't really feel all the blows until after you have calmed down.
I have never been in a real life and death battle, but I can imagine that the adrenaline rush must be much more intense then an everyday sort of argument. There's the stories you hear of super human strength in moments of crises
Many ancient cultures used different types of drugs to enhance anger and bravery. If you are revved up enough and don't feel the pain, you will keep going until a vital organ is badly damaged or you bleed to death.
I had a temporary tattoo painted on my arm once. The paint was a natural dye called Wode. It was used by the Celts. I was unaware until then that it was also a drug. It makes you aggressive. The ancient Celts painted their whole nude bodies blue with Wode before the battle.
I have read of many cases of bizarre injuries of a person being impaled through the body or the brain and continued on, because nothing of importance was hit.
Sometimes even if the the object that is piercing something important, if it is left in, you can live a good while, (hours or days) because the object is sealing the wound. The removal of the object(as well as infection) is what will kill as you will bleed to death if the internal bleeding can not be stopped.

ive had a nice time reading these discussions and for a 15 yr old kid like me reading history books is rather entertaining than math and some boring ones

ive watched national geographic " deadliest chinese weapons "
and it is said that there are four critical pressure points at the part of the body that will most likely kill you.

1.]sternum
2.]heart
3.]neck
4.]head part ( skull )

ive got lots more to learn since i just recently signed up and in our local forums , i was already the best in chinese topics : http://forums.e-games.com.ph/index.php
when i accidentally stumbled on this site i didnt know that there are still so much to learn about chinese culture.

From a Counter Strike perspective, a head shot normally does the trick. And if you happen to be shot by B46 (Accuracy International Arctic Warfare Magnum (AWM)), you pretty much die right away.

On this topic I liked the comments on gladiator training from Sparticus. A mortally wounded man can still kill you if the wound does not cripple him, but a crippled man is no longer dangerous.

Taking someone out of the battle is more important than killing them.

In relation to wounds, arrows and armor, it is interesting to note that the Spanish conquistadors retreating along the causeway in lake Texaco with the captured Moctezuma had about 60 men in armor surrounded by thousands firing arrows from canoes at close range. Almost every Spaniard was wounded but maybe one or two died.
Josh