page of Tang swords
http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/custom.html

straight backed, with differential heat treatment. Distinct white edge against black spine.

page of Song/Yuan swords
http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/catalog.html


the Song swords have the white edge vs darker spine look.

Now on the Zhanmadao is single edged and straight, like a Tang sword

Reading the website, it doesn't mention any change in technique

http://chineseswords.freewebspace.com/contact.html

since Song Zhanmadao is talked of right after that description, I assume it's also forge welded, differential heat treated, etc.

but it doesn't have the pattern from differential heat treatment, was another technique used?


the temper line, is that what I said is missing? I do not know what a 'temper line' is, but I assume it's the line between the light edge and dark spine?


then there is that mention of, during the mongol invasion, japanese swords chipping against mainland armor. Since their swords are similiar to the Tang make, are there records of Tang dynasty swords being ineffective against certain kinds of armor? Is that why Tang-style swords seemingly disappeared?


and also, did Tang have any curving sabers? Did Song? It seems that curved sabers only came into use through Central Asia with Yuan?

There is a single example of a highly curved sword in a late-7th century tomb figurine from the tomb of the eunuch general Yang Sixu. The usual explanation is that it was an imported Arab or Persian scimitar, but the problem with this is that scimitars were not even popular with the Arabs or Persians yet at this time. In fact, scimitars are descended from Mongol sabers, and only became widespread in the Middle East after the Mongol invasions.

There is also a single depiction of a curved shoudao infantry sword in the early Song-period Wujing Zongyao. Whether the shoudao was generally curved, or the example illustrated in the text shows influence from nomadic cavalry sabers, is still a matter of debate.

(see this earlier thread http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...l=curved+swords

and also this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dao_%28sword%29 )

Look here. It is a mural painting from Yaksu-ri, Koguryo era. Probably IV-V centuries.

Prof. Bobrov also found several images from Later Han period demonstrating the same type of edged weapon. He even found several real samples obtained in China by excavations.

An interesting fact though is that the Xia dynasty, the Tangut rival of the Song dynasty, already had curved daos.

Did the nomad saber also inspire the japanese katana? What I've read of katana developement though, the curvature is always seen as a native developement. But with so many people's across Asia and all the way to Europe influenced by the Mongol saber, it would seem too much of a coincidence that Japan just happened to develope a curving sword at the same time, on their own.

Now, did Chinese ever produce sabers resembling the katana? Not the Ming ones based off of katanas, but when they were first introduced to sabers.

'logically' I would think, if Chinese were making differential heat treatment,forge welded, etc. swords, then were introduced to Mongol sabers, wouldn't they produce something like 'a Tang dao with a curve' ?

To me a katana pretty much looks like a Tang dao with a curve. Yet from what I've read, it seems Chinese regarded the katana design as a uniquely Japanese design, collecting them as objects of art or later being influenced by their sword design.

that just seems odd

It is a bit odd as you say. The Chinese zhibeidao did not entirely die out and was in continuous use in Tibet, but why was a curved version with the same tip never made? As soon as sabers became curved the tip style changed. Here is an example of a Chinese/Tibetan zhibeidao with a few unusual features. The blade is 31 inches and shows signs that the tip was aplied seperately. The heavy blade is balenced almost 9 inches from the guard, and strangest of all, it shows a very slight curveture...
Josh


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/pekh...aduation285.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/pekh...aduation286.jpg

Wasn't the development of the curved blade just an accident and then the result was discovered to be useful?
For what ever reason,( in the folding process , the mixing of the raw metals had not been done correctly, or for decorations sake perhaps,) a metal was put on one edge that cooled and shrank at a differnet rate then the main blade caused the blade to curve as it cooled.

I've read that swords naturally curve with differential heat treatment

But differential heat treatment is (as far as I know) a Chinese technique, yet all those nice Tang swords were put straight purposefully, and curved swords then came from the nomads.

Did the nomads also use differential heat treatment?

Regarding sabers in China - it is an article in Kaogu 考古 1999.10 with a saber of almost European type. It is indicated it was found in the tomb of Kang Moucai near Nanjing.

Who could tell me what are dates of his life? Why was he called Qi state prince (Qi-wang?)? Was he a father of Kang Ruji?

Best regards,

Alexey.