Hanren (汉族)

Language: Han dialects
Script: Han
Traditional Religions: Confucianism, Daoism, Chinese Buddhism











Manchu (满族)

Language: Manchurian and Mandarin
Script: Manchurian, Han and Jurchen/Jin
Traditional Religions: Confucianism, Daoism, Chinese Buddhism, Manchurian Shamanism





Tibetan (藏族)

Language: Tibetan
Script: Tibetan
Traditional Religion: Tibetan Buddhism

Hui (回族)

Language: Mandarin and Arabic
Script: Han and Arabic
Traditional Religion: Sinised Islam

Mongolian (蒙古族)

Language: Mongolian
Script: Mongolian
Traditional Religions: Tibetan Buddhism and Mongolian Shamanism

Which TV episodes did you get these from? I can see you got the Manchu pictures from Huan Zhu Ge Ge, but I'm pretty sure there's at least one more TV episode that I have no knowledge of.

I thought this "Five Main Groups" kind of categorization was an outdated ROC system. The PRC classification into 56 groups, although far from perfect, is still much more comprehensive and accurate. For example, the Uyghurs are clearly distinct from other groups of Chinese Muslims, but they got lumped together as Hui simply on the basis of religion. And the Yunnanese and southern ethnic groups, which are very numerous, were completely left out or classified as 'Hanren'.

Also, 'Mongolian' and 'Mongol' should not be confused. 'Mongol' is the ethnic group. 'Mongolian' is the nationality (i.e. citizen of Mongolia). It is incorrect to call Mongols in the PRC as 'Mongolians'.

The Five Main ethnic groups in China, different from the ones you think. According to the census:

1. Han Chinese: 1,100,000,000 (92%)
2. Zhuang: 70,000,000 (5%)
3. Ha Ni: 15,000,000 (1%)
4. Hui: 8,000,000 (<1%)
5. Miao: 6,000,000 (<1%)

But the when refers to the area, the Five ethnic groups are:

1. Han Chinese
2. Uygur
3. Tibetan
4. Mongolian
5. Hui

Hmmm? Really?
According to the Miao Folktales and Yi Folktales, the three main ethnic groups in ANCIENT CHINA were the

Hua Xia(Chinese), Miao and Lolo(Yi).

The Tibetan, The Mongolian, and the Manchu are non-Chinese. What I'm meant to say is, they are not natives to China in Ancient Times.

That, too, is not an accurate picture, for the following reasons:

1. There is no evidence that the people of the Yellow River valley called themselves Huaxia. It would be more accurate to say that they called themselves Xia in Western Zhou times (if not earlier), and called themselves Xia or Hua in Eastern Zhou times. Therefore Hua/Xia is OK, but Huaxia as a compound word is not (contrary to the assumptions regularly made by PRC historians).

2. There is no evidence linking the Three Miao 三苗 of the legendary Sage-king period with the Guizhou people whom the Hua Chinese began labelling as Miao in the Southern Song period, 2,000-3,000 years later. Although the Hua Chinese eventually assumed the Miao of Guizhou were descendants of the Three Miao - an assumption that was gradually adopted by the Guizhou Miao themselves.

3. If by Lolo (Yi) you mean the 彜 of Yunnan and not the 夷 of ancient Shandong and Anhui, then there is no evidence of contact between the Hua/Xia people and the peoples of Yunnan before Western Han times. The ethnonyms Lolo and Yi were both given to the Yunnan peoples by other groups, and were derogatory in origin (these peoples call themselves by other names, such as Nuosu). Furthermore, the Yunnan peoples originally did not have a common ethnic identity, and so cannot be called an ethnic group until the 1950s, when the PRC grouped them all together under the classification 'Yi'.

1. Everything you stated is based on your own point of view. You have no evidence to support your claim. Okay, the people that the Hmong refers to as Ancient Chinese would be Shua. I don't know what you call Ancient Chinese but if to used the term that the Hmong have given to the vicious expanding people who invaded many ethnic groups would be Shua. The Tong (dongzu) or Kam(their self-given name even refers the Ancient Chinese as Sher which closely related to Shua) Btw, Shua literally means COUNTER. Chinese have been know to imposed heavy taxes on the non-Chinese. You have forgotten to realized that there were multiple tribes living in the Yellow River Valley in Ancient China.

2. Are you Miao? You have forgotten that all Miao share one common ancestry and historical history. Btw, there are already many many evidences to support that the San Miao were indeed the Miao People. These supports came from the Chinese Historian themselves. Miao People composed of many ethnic groups, yet indeed that is correct. I myself is a Miao Descendant and I can tell you my bloodline consists of multiple Ethnic Groups. Do I need to prove you? You can just look it up yourself. All three Miao refers to the THREE MAIN REGIONAL DIALECTS of THE MIAO PEOPLE. All Three Miao Groups even talk about the same historical events that took place between the Chinese and Miao. BY CHINESE, i meant the tribal people who pushed the Miao west.

3. I'm not talking about the Ancient Shandong or Anhui. You're talking about a total different period of time. I'm stating. Both Hmong and Chinese annals stated that the three main ethnic groups in China were the Lolos, Miao and Chinese. Yes, who know if the Ancient Chinese are even today dominant Han Chinese? I do know the Lolo or Yi composed of many groups and have self-given names as well as the Miao People, but these groups composed and categorized as one due to many similar reasons; similarity in culture, folktales, cultural practices and history.

My evidence is the Zhou-period texts Shangshu and Zuozhuan, which are the only available evidence for ethnonyms used in the Zhou period. Have you read these texts before?



I am sure none of them has been able to explain why there is not a single Chinese historical record of an ethnic group called Miao, including whether it was descended from the Three Miao or not, until 2,000-3,000 years after the time the Three Miao supposedly existed (according to the Shiji).

Historians in modern China have an interest in constructing a long history for the Miao of Guizhou, to show that they have always been a part of the 'Chinese nation' and its history. Unfortunately, historical records are completely silent on the history of the Miao tribes before the Ming period, so there is simply no reliable evidence with which to write the ancient history of the Miao.



Which Chinese annals? As I said earlier, 'Miao' and 'Lolo' do not even appear as ethnonyms in Chinese texts until less than 1,000 years ago.

I will make my position clear here: Whatever evidence is available suggests that the Miao tribes of Guizhou would have no 'historical memory' of the ancient Three Miao today, if the scholars of the Ming and Qing empires who moved into Guizhou did not pass on to them a theory that their ancestors were the Three Miao. The Three Miao are an imported myth, not an original indigenous legend.

I don't know what kinds of Chinese are you or what kinds of Chinese the Hmong encountered but I do know the Hmong have never came in contact with the Cantonese and many other Chinese Groups. The Chinese have been conquered by so many other ethnic groups that I don't know if the Chinese I stated are even related to the Chinese you're talking about. About the Manchu, the Hmong came in contact with the Manchu during the Qing Dynasty when the Qing ordered Han and Manchu soldiers into the western provinces where many Hmong live. That is why many Hmong fled to Indo-China and the last story many Hmong elders talk about Chinese was during the Japanese Colonization of China when the Qing were overthrew.

Zhou period? I do not focus on the Zhou period because it's not my interest. However I do focus on certain Chinese Dynasty and Era. According to the Hmong(Miao) People, many of their historical history all pre-date the forming of Chinese Empire. All these Mongol, Zhao and Manchu invasion came after what the Hmong talked about. Many Hmong elders speak of China when China was a peaceful land.

The Miao disappeared from some Chinese Dynasties because they went to hiding for centuries. When the Chinese expanded and forced many Miao to migrated. Many Miao fled to the Mountains and hid there. Even today, many Hmong elders talk about hiding away from the Chinese and some Hmong American who went to visited the Hmong in China even stated that recently, some Hmong Groups are just starting to come in touch with the outside worlds. There are still people living in Cave, Mountains and isolated areas in China. I believe the absent of Miao People in some Chinese Dynasty is due to that. Btw, possibly the Chinese during that time didn't focus on the Miao. During these absences, other nations were trying to control China which I believe may be the cause to why China ignore the Miao. Many Chinese historical books were burned and etc..

Of course Miao and Lolo did not appear in Chinese Text but it was the Chinese who used those two terms to categorized the Miao and Yi People. All Miao and Yi have self-given names however these two terms were used to categorized the original groups during that time. The term Miao and Lolo were used by the Chinese. The term Man and Shua were used by the Miao. These terms are used in ancient times. Today, these terms are used because it would be appropriate and easily to understand who are the descendants of those three groups.

What indigenous legend are you talking about? So where did the San Miao came from? If it is not indigenous to China and foreign to other groups then why it is indigenous to you. Many Chinese I've talked to agree the Hmong lived in China and are a very ancient group of people just by their religion, cultural practices and their primitive lifestyles. This does not mean, they are uncivilized or etc.. this means they show clearly that they are a very rebellious group of people who like to maintain their identity. I do not understand you. So basically to you, the Hmong are not indigenous to China?????????? which mean the Yue People and other NON-CHINESE or so-called barbarian tribes Empires are basically myths as well?



Lastly, lets make this clear because I'm focusing on Origin and you're focusing on the latter Eras that happened in China History. Lets not be confuse sir.

It would be a big mistake not to have any interest in the Zhou period. I can tell you that the story of the Three Miao is known only from legends about the sage-kings that were transmitted during the Zhou period (around 1000 BC to 250 BC) and were systematized by the historian Sima Qian around 100 BC.

The other important thing about the Zhou period is that we have no record of what the 'Chinese' of north China called themselves before the Zhou. The Shang oracle bones tell us nothing about ethnic identity. So the Zhou records are the earliest evidence available of the ethnonyms Xia and (later) Hua.



Yes, you did not understand what I mean by indigenous.

What I mean is that the Miao of Guizhou probably never thought they were descended from an ancient group called the Three Miao, until 'Chinese' people entered Guizhou in the Ming and Qing periods,

1. Tried to figure out where the Miao came from,
2. Came up with the story that the Miao were originally the Three Miao,
3. And taught this story to the Miao themselves.

So the story is not 'indigenous' as in 'originally belonging' to the Miao. They learned it from someone else. Why do I say so? Because there is not a single trace (in ancient texts) concerning a legend of the Three Miao among the people of Guizhou, until the major 'Chinese' migration into Guizhou in the Ming and Qing periods. Whereas there are ancient records of the origin myths of other tribal peoples in south China. So the odds are against the Guizhou Miao having had a Three Miao legend for thousands of years.

But of course you will not agree with me, since this is not what the Hmong elders say.

As for the idea that the Miao were so good at hiding that the Chinese didn't know for centuries that they even existed, I don't think that's convincing. Chinese political control of Guizhou was always weak and indirect until the 18th century, but the Chinese empires did establish a prefecture in central Guizhou (which was called Zangke 牂柯) as early as the Western Han empire, around 100 BC. There were officials posted there to maintain contact with the local people, people who were almost certainly the ancestors of the Miao. They also had contact with the Yelang 夜郎 kingdom in western Guizhou, a kingdom whose king later submitted to Western Han suzerainty because he was intimidated by the Han conquest of the Southern Yue kingdom in the Guangzhou/Canton region.

The Miao are not natives to Guizhou but they are the majority there. It is a legend told by the Chinese People. It's not my legend or my people legend so how can I know what you're saying. It's like the Chinese called Shang Dynasty Shang while the Korean called Shang Dynasty Eun Dynasty. Miao people don't called themselves Miao however the term Miao was used by the Chinese to categorized a group of people once lived in the Yellow River Valley. If the three Miao are not Miao? can you explain why there are three main dialects within these three groups yet they all share cultural similarity and etc.....

Where did you get your things from then? It seems more like you're being biased. You haven't give any clear answer but just questions. The Guizhou Miao are not the only Miao that talk about the Three Miao. The Hmong of the West talk about their ancient kingdom called the Vaj Hmoob which literally translated to THREE HMONG.

We as Hmong passed down Oral Tradition and folktales that take days to finished. Do Chinese passed down oral tradition or do they just write down whatever they feel is right and then tell people that what was written down is right.

Many Nations like the Manchu, Mongol, Zhao conquered China and btw each ethnics have their own names to categorized the same people.

They are only 2 race in ancient China ,there were Mongoloid and Caucasian ,Mongolian ,manchu and tibetan are natives of china since begin of Chinese history ,Mongol and Manchu formed important dynasty in China were Miao was not .

Actually, that is what I have been trying to tell you all this while, but you wouldn't accept it. My opinion is that the Three Miao legend was not originally your people's legend. It is probably a Chinese legend that was adopted by your people as an origin myth, very late in their history.

Your people definitely had other myths or legends about their origins. Unfortunately, those may now be lost because they were replaced by the foreign Three Miao legend.



'Eun' is just the Korean pronunciation of 'Yin' 殷, which is another name of the Shang dynasty. The Chinese have long used both names.



That is not correct. The Chinese records speak only of the Three Miao as people who once lived along the Middle Yangzi River (much further south than the Yellow River), and were eventually exiled to the far west.



Actually the opposite is true. I have asked very few questions, and given quite a number of answers. The real problem is that you don't like my answers.



I can't answer that question because I cannot read the minds of ancient Chinese historians. But quite an important part of the really ancient Chinese legends about the sage-kings was originally passed down through oral tradition, and are as a result not considered fully reliable by historians today. That includes the part about the Three Miao.

But an unreliable written account written 2,000 years ago, about an event that took place 5,000 years ago, is still considered more reliable than a folktale being told today about an event that took place 5,000 years ago, because there is 2,000 less years of potential distortion and inaccuracy. That is a basic principle of historiography.

If the Miao people had historical records in their own script 700 years ago, before the period of contact with north Chinese culture (including the north Chinese story of the Three Miao), and if these records survived and could be read today, they might give us a much more reliable picture of early Miao history. Unfortunately, those records either never existed, or have been lost. It is impossible today to reconstruct with a sufficient level of reliability the myths and stories that the Miao tribes had before the 14th century.

1. Chinese
2. Zhuang
3. Manchu

All these lists included Manchu surprisingly, while they nearly lost their identity. By the most important cases:

1. Han (can be extracted though like Mandarin, Wu, so forth)
2. Mongol
3. Uyghur
4. Tibetan

If there would be a fifth one it can either be derived from inside Han or re-born Manchu. Miao, Yi, Yao and others have nothing to do to be major, instead they can very weak.

Kazak
and Chinese muslim.
Those two groups should be added!

Well, if we go by the population officially classified as belonging to each ethnic group, the ones over 1 million are, in descending order of population size:

1. Han
2. Zhuang
3. Manchu
4. Hui (i.e. non-Central Asian Muslim)
5. Miao
6. Uyghur
7. Yi
8. Tujia
9. Mongol
10. Tibetan
11. Bouyei
12. Dong
13. Yao
14. Korean
15. Bai
16. Hani
17. Dai, Li, and Kazakh (these three populations are so close in size that it is difficult to rank them with certainty)

The 37 other groups have populations below one million.

When the Republic of China formulated its 'republic of five races/nations' concept in the 1910s, the five were Han, Manchu, Mongol, Tibetan, and Hui (which then included all Muslim citizens including Uyghurs and Kazakhs). This selection was not based on empirical statistics of population size, but rather on political expediency - i.e., to de-legitimize any secessionist ideas in Mongolia (whether Inner or Outer), Manchuria, Tibet, and Xinjiang. Since southern peoples in Yunnan, Guangxi, Guizhou, Sichuan, Hunan, and Hubei were not even recognized at the time as separate ethnic groups but were instead assumed to have 'become Han', and furthermore lacked the political and ethnic coherence to attempt separatism, they were not included among the five. That is why I said that the post that began this thread reflects an outdated concept of 'five main ethnic groups' that was discarded after 1949.

iirc, mandarin is not a ethnic group,

there are around 11 million manchus living in china, most living in liaoning.

zhuang is the most populous ethnic minority

Actually, I don't think the Manchurian has lost their identity at all!!! There are plenty of Manchurians living in Taiwan and kept a lot of their traditions and became famous artists or famous writers, etc. -- Some actually totally criticized some of the modern interpretations of the Manchurian and Qing dynasty culture like my favorite Manchurian author in Taiwan, Tang Lu Sun (唐魯孫). He was the nephew of the royal concubines of Guangxu Emperor, the famous Zhen Fei and Jing Fei sisters, so he knew all the old customs and stuff about the Manchurians and the Qing dynasty's royal court life. He talked a lot about those stuff in Taiwan, and many readers who are Manchurians were also writing in to response to his writings. I and other people in Taiwan were able to experience the very vibrant and vivid and lively Manchurian culture and the writings of many very-NOT-losing-their-identity Manchurians in Taiwan and their experiences in the modern Republic!!!

In addition, I met a few younger generations of Manchurians in U.S. (some from Taiwan and some from mainland China), and they don't look like they had lost their identity either!!! I knew they were Manchurians because they were talking about the Manchurian cultural topics in the book store I frequented, and one of them was the cashier of that book store, and her friends and her brother was there to keep her company (and probably doing their homework from a local University).

On the mainland eBook sites that I frequent, I have seen plenty of Manchurian nationalists having interesting pen wars with the extreme Han Chinese nationalists. I thought the Manchurians were really able to hold their own in these pen wars.

From: http://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...p;variant=zh-tw



Translated:

Tang Lu Sun (Sept. 10, 1908 - 1985) was a famous Chinese author in Taiwan from 1970's to 1980's.

He was born in Beijing, and his original name was 葆森, and his zi (字 or pen name?) was 魯孫. His father was from the nobleman's family of Tatala 他他拉氏 family of the Manchurian's Red Bordered Flag (Army). His mother was the daughter of Li Henian (李鶴年), who was the Han Li in 1845 (or Daoguang 25th year) and the governor of Henan Province, the Primary Magistrate of the Yellow River (I have no idea whether it should be translated like this or not), and the governor of Fujian and Zhejiang provinces. He had experienced a lot of stuff since childhood. He came to Taiwan in 1946 and retired in 1973 from a government post. After his retirement, he started his writings to all the major newspapers and magazines. After he became famous, he became a column writer for 中國時報 (Note: one of the top 3 newspapers in Taiwan at the time). He started publishing books around 1976.

He had remembered many stuff, and he was really good in writing about food. One of his articles that made him famous was "Eating at Beijing", and it was collected in one of his books, "Chinese Eats" (中國吃)!

Have we ever faced through powerful Dong, Naxi, or Tujia national risings? It is not about population.

Why do you rank the Mongols among the top four then? Have the Mongols of Inner Mongolia staged any big rebellions after Outer Mongolia became independent in 1911?