Since the Uygurs are largely considered to be Turkic peoples, I thought they were originally more Mongoloid like the Tujue and other neighbors like the Khitans, Mengwu, Xi, etc., and that the reason the Uygurs of today look Caucasoid is largely because of their settling into the Tarim Basin in large numbers after 840 AD and mixing with the local Tocharians and Iranians already there. However, after rereading some sources, it has made me rethink that a bit.

For example, I read that the Uygurs were descended from the Tiele peoples, and the term "Tiele" was a generic term that referred to the various peoples dwelling along the northern belt of ancient East Turkestan, now known today in the PRC as "Xinjiang", roughly encompassing the area between Lake Balkhash and the Altai Mountains on Mongolia's western border. Now we know from archaeology that ancient nomadic groups such as the Scythians (a Caucasoid nomadic group from the Ukrainian steppes and who happened to be the first known peoples to have adopted the horse-riding nomadic culture consisting of hunting, cattle-herding, and horse-archery like the later steppe nomads) who had penetrated as far as the Altai Mountains had lived in this area. Sources also indicate that the Sarmatians (related to the Scythians and also Caucasoid though they lived to the east of the original Ukrainian Scythians), as well as ancient peoples like the Wusun or the Kangju, who were described as having green eyes and red hair, also inhabitted this vast scope of land. The Caucasoid Yuezhi (Tocharians) also previously inhabitted Dzungaria. So by the time the name Tiele was first mentioned in Chinese sources during the North-South Dynasties, the Tiele peoples were already a mixed peoples, though one source suggests they were probably a mix largely between the Caucasoid Yuezhi Tocharian peoples and the Mongoloid Turkic Xiongnu peoples. However, I am not sure if the Gao-che were as heavily mixed as the Tiele, their descendants, since records show that the Gao-che peoples had similar traits to the Xiongnu, which would suggest a more Mongoloid origin for the Gao-che.

Now if this is the case, then the Uygurs, even before they fled in large numbers and settled in the Tarim Basin in 840 AD after the Kirghiz destroyed their capital and took over Mongolia, were of a heavily mixed people that had many Caucasoid traits and features among them, perhaps like today's Uygurs? If so, did the Northern-Southern Dynasties or Tang historical records separate the Uygurs from the rest of the other nomadic groups like how the Han historical records separated the Jie from the other nomadic groups such as the Xiongnu, Xianbei, etc. (which were referred to as "normal Hu") by calling the Jie "alternative Hu" since the Jie were said to have Caucasoid features in them, like deep-set eyes in combination with large noses, possibly making them even Yuezhi or Sogdian?

Here's an early thread discussing the Tiele:

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=118

In the Age of Fragmentation, the Uyghur were not known as a separate group, merely as one of the 15 tribes of the Tiele. After the rise of the Tujue (Turkut), the Tiele became their subjects. In 742 (during the Tianbao reign of the Tang dynasty), the Uyghur (then known as the Huihe 回纥) rose up, vanquished the Turkut and conquered their lands. In 788, they changed their name to Huigu or Huihu 回鹘.

Today's Uighurs do not all look Caucasoid, it really vary depending where you go. Turpan/Turfan Uighur tend to look mix mongoloid/Caucasoid, and a handful can easily pass as Chinese or Kazakh.

But in Kasghar and anytihng south, they usually look more similar to Uzbeks.

According to Dru Gladney, a Ph.d in anthropology and renowen researcher on the Hui, claims that the Yuguzu (Yugurs aka Sarigh Uighurs) might actually be closer to the "original" Uighurs of the Uighur Khanate.

Also one must keep in mind the name Uighur was only re-introduce this past 100 years.. before that it was only last used in the 15th century. Most of the current Uighurs identify themself by their Oasis of origin rather than Uighur back then. Like they would call themself Turpanlik, or Kashgarlik.. and would have strong rivalries over their origins. It is still evident today. Some Uighurs would go as far saying that the reason why E.Turkistan fell is because they were not united and had too much conflict among themselves.

One myth says that the english word "ogre" is derived from Uighur. I wonder if there's any validity to that. I can certainly imagine Tang dynasty merchants spreading nasty stories about the Uighurs along the silk road. Before they discovered Manichaeism and Buddhism they were a pretty vicious lot.

I have seen pictures of the Yugur, and they look predominantly Mongoloid, like the Mongols. As for them being close to the "original Uygurs" (as Yun tells us, more correctly Huihe/Huihu), I am interested in Dru Gladney's research for concluding that the Yugurs are closer to the "Uygurs" of the Orkhon Uygur Khaganate since Gansu was a melting pot for various ethnicities in China and the Yugurs of today may very well contain other ethnicities' blood too. After some of the Orkhon Uygurs fled to Gansu, there were various other peoples and empires in the region, which included Tuyu-Hun (mix of Xianbei and Qiang?) peoples already there, the Xi-Xia Tanguts, Mongols (Chinggisids, Dzungars, etc.), Tibetans, and Han Chinese. So, it can be said that the majority of the invaders and settlers in the region were and are largely Mongoloid, since the Tocharians there were already long gone since the time of the Xiongnu. Like some of the Caucasoid-looking Uygurs of East Turkestan who have largely predominant Tocharian/Iranian blood in them, why can't the Yugurs have predominantly Tangut/Tibetan/Qiang/Tuyu-Hun/Mongol/Han blood in them as well?

By looking at historical sources, I get the conclusion that the Tiele tribes were a largely mixed peoples containing both Mongoloid (Xiongnu) and Caucasoid (Yuezhi/Tocharian) genes in them though I feel they probably had much stronger Caucasoid genes in them (like the Caucasoid-looking East Turkestan peoples), otherwise where else could the descendants of the Kangju, Wusun, and Scytho-Sarmatian peoples have went if not assimilated by the Turkic invaders from Mongolia?

I am sure Dr Gladney do not rule out the factor of Tangut/Qiang blood in them, he simply stated that it is "closer" to the original Uighurs. Many of this is based on the fact that the Yugur language contain many archaic vocabulary similar to that found in Yenisei Turkic and other Turkic languages of the Northern branch.

However he readily admit, along with other anthropologist, that the Yugur.. like the Dongxiang, Baoan, and other Gansu minorities.. is most likely a mix of many different races in the region.. including Tangut. In fact there is a very good chance that many Yugurs have strong Tangut strains in their blood. In my eyes at least, the Yugurs do not have the same type of mongoloid features you find in other mongoloid Turkic races, like Kazakhs, Tuvans, Kyrgyz, etc. Their features is much more similar to people of Gansu including Hans in that region.

As for Tiele.. the region where the Uighur Turks originated was pretty far west in the Mongol steppes, an area where you start seeing Kets and Finno-Ugrian races. Although Kets look more mongoloid now, they say in the past, the Kets were more caucasoid. it could be that Turkic races around there had some mixing with them.

For my observation, I found the most of my Uigur classmates that they can't tell the historical origin of themselves. Some of them believe that they were from the different background created by Allah; the others have no ideas about that and of course they don't care any more. The topic is avoided to mention as generally as we non-Uigurs never mention a pig in front of them.

By reading their features for long, I can easily to find out who is a Uigur and who is a Kazak in the most times. So that Uigurs are different in their faces' impression to the other nationalities, although some of them look like non-Uigurs.

Considering materials on the origin of Uigurs, we may usually take them for mongolian-like group; however, by the current features the may taken for the Caucasian-like. It often made me puzzled. What I made my efforts to is comparing Uigurs' historical origin with that of today's Turks. I may suppose that Uigurs were not from a single ethical root in the past thousand years. I have not enough proofs to support the idea, but I do found something interesting which could be evidence for it. 1). Although the name of "Uigur" appeared as "Hui Hu" (回鹘) and the like long before, it has been used to be an appellation for a modern nationality just since the forepart of 20th century. 2). Their culture and habits are obviously a kind of historical mixture. 3). Inside the group of Uigurs we called, there are still several branches realized by the majority of Uigurs with small differences that can't be neglected.

The core peoples of the Tiele were descendents of the Gaoche peoples, but later other Turkic and non-Turkic peoples were also called "Tiele" by the Chinese in the early 7th century.

The Huihe Alliance was formed at 605. Before that, the Uyghurs were a people known in Chinese as Weihe and Yuanhe (Hamilton suggests that the name Yuanhe was originially Yuanweihe which must have been the Chinese transcription of the Turkic name On Uyghur meaning Ten Tribes of Uyghurs).

Zhu Xueyuan's book "The Origins of China's Northern Ethnicities" 《中国北方诸族的源流》 suggests that the Gaoche/Tiele originated from the Xianbei, and that the Uyghurs were a Turkic people formed from intermarriage between Xiongnu and Gaoche. The modern languages spoken by the Uyhgurs and Turks developed from the ancient Uyghur language. The ethnic composition of the Uyghur Khanate was very mixed - besides Xiongnu and Xianbei, Tungus-Malgal (Mohe) tribes were also moving in. The situation of Turkic and Mongol languages being used concurrently among the Yugurs 裕固 of today may be a reflection of the mixed Xiongnu-Xianbei ancestry of the Uyghurs.

Soviet scholars who studied the Yugur noticed that their Isaqana tribe included many Mongol family names, such as Arlat, Dzunil, Oreg, Paghana, Qalqa, Qarghos, Qongrat, Soltus, Temurchin, Tuman and Virat. When the Uyghurs were driven out of the Mongolian steppes by the Khirghiz in 840, the Mongols did not yet exist as a distinct people. Thus these 'Mongol' names among the Yugurs may reflect the Xianbei roots of the Uyghurs.

On the origins of the Yugurs 裕固 in Gansu:

According to Vol. 7 of 《中华文明传真》 ("Chinese Civilisation in a New Light"), after the fall of the Uyghur Khanate to the Khirgiz in 840, the Uyghurs fled westwards and resettled in three groups: the Ganzhou 甘州 Uyghurs in the Hexi Corridor, the Gaochang 高昌 (or Xizhou 西州) Uyghurs at Gaochang in the Tarim Basin, and the Karakhanate north of the Pamirs (which was eventually conquered by the Karakhitai or Western Liao). The Ganzhou Uyghurs were on friendly terms with the Song and allied with them against the Xixia state, but in 1028 they were defeated by the Xixia. Those who remained accepted Xixia rule, and became known as the Yellow-haired Uyghur 黄头回鹘. They were the ancestors of the Yugur ethnicity, which is one of the 55 official minorities in China.

Based on info from Paul Hattaway's "Operation China: Introducing all the Peoples of China" (2000):

The Yugur have two branches: the Enger Yugur, who speak a Mongolian language and live in the eastern part of the Sunan Yugur Autonomous County, and the Saragh Yugur, who speak a Turkic language and live in the western part of the county. Only a handful of people, living in the Dahe District of the County, can speak both languages. The two Yugur groups have little contact with each other, but when they do meet they must use Chinese to communicate. The Enger Yugur language is closely related to Bonan, Tu, Dongxiang, and Mongolian. According to Henry G. Schwartz, "Its phonology is closer to the first three languages, whereas in vocabulary and grammar it is somewhat more akin to Mongolian." ("The Minorities of Northern China: A Survey", 1984). Schwartz also notes that Saragh Yugur "still preserves many features of the language of medieval Turkic literature."

The Bonan (Bao'an), Tu, and Dongxiang are official minorities descended from Mongol garrisons stationed in Gansu and Qinghai during the Yuan dynasty. Therefore it's likely that the Enger Yugur also adopted their Mongolian language from intermarriage with a Mongol garrison.

I very disagree with this theory. It's clear that the Gaoche were Turkic and not Mongolic. They were the descendents of the Dingling.

Agreed, I also think that the usage of a Mongolian language by part of the Yugur population today has much more to do with the Mongols than with the Xianbei.

I have read that many Chinese from the Tang who became convicts had fled to nomadic groups in the steppes, including Uygurs. They said the Uygur confederation had many Chinese and Sogdians among them. The Uygur capital, Balasagun in modern day Mongolia, was actually helped built by Chinese. There were Chinese and Sogdian writings along with the native Uygur inscription on the walls.

One Tang ambassador (forgot his name?) betrayed the emperor and fled to the Uygurs. The Uygur khan later adopted him as his own son and gave him the Uygur royal name to adopt.

These are the nomadic Uygurs in Mongolia before they later moved to Tarim Basin.

The Uigur were a Turkish people, many tribes and clans cosidered themselves Uigur. They were, briefly, ovelords of central Asia and much of the Mongolian steppe. After this they ruled several states in Central Asia.

so ethnically Turkish, with the useual mix of other peoples.

rgds.
Tom..

According to Bai Shouyi's Outline History of China, during their time north of the Gobi area the Uighurs were fairly close allies of the Tang and fought alongside them against the western Turkish tribes. Thus I would think that the Uighur encampments would not be a safe place for convicts or traitorous ambassadors to flee to, as the Uighurs' good relations with the Tang might cause them to turn fugitives over to the Emperor.

Still, I suppose it's possible. What's the source for the story of the convicts and the ambassador?

I know nothing about the Uighurs' ethnic origin. Bai mentions that the Uighurs had been vassals of the Xiongnu, the Xianbei, and the Turks successively, but I don't know if that involved any ethnic mixing between these groups.

An interesting argument out there is that the Uyghurs are essentially 'Turkified' peoples mostly of the types we'd associate with the 'Persians,' and not 'really' Turkic to begin with. Obviously all of today's Turkic people went through a Turkification process at some point, but the idea here is that the Uyghurs are new enough to the game that it makes a difference. It's a very complicated and heavily politicized story and there are lots of questions regarding the connection between the various states throughout the history of this area that usually get umbrellaed as 'Uyghur.'

We had a similar thread on this here: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1650

The Tang officer who sought refuge amongst the Uygurs later became an ambassador for them. He was given the khan's family name of "Yaylakar."

All I know was that there were Chinese, Sogdians and maybe some Persians living among the Uygurs in the capital, Balasagun. Their capital was nearly built in the Chinese fashion.

Michael Drompp renders this name as 'Yaghlaqar'. In Chinese it was rendered as 'Yaoluoge'.

The Muslim traveler Tamim Ibn Bahr visited the old Uyghur capital of Kharabalgasun in Mongolia and gave a pretty detailed description of it. It sounded like an interesting place that had a mix of different cultures. It was built along Chinese lines, rectangular wall with 12 iron gates. It had rural suburbs made up of small farming villages and markets full of all sorts of artisans and merchants (arranged in the chinese style according to their trade). The centerpiece of the city was the Khagan's royal palace (which seems to have been built in the Sogdian rather than Chinese style). On top of the palace's flat roof was a large golden yurt that could be seen from miles outside the city. This was the Khagan's inner sanctum and the seat of Uyghur power. The Uyghurs also had other cities in Mongolia such as Beybalik, further north along the Selega river.

Uyghur rulers were Qaghans, not Khagans nor Khans.

Balasaghun was the capital of the Qara-Khanids in Semirechie, the capital of the Uyghur Qaghanate was Qara Balghasun.

The Uyghurs were among the Toquz Oghuz union which was formed from the Tiele living in Mongolia. The Uyghurs (with different names in history, such as Yuanhe, Weihe, Huihe, Huihu, etc) were actually one of the Gaoche peoples but we surely know that most of the Tiele were Gaoche-descendents.

I thought Kaghan and Qaghan were just two versions of transliterating the same word?

Yes, but Qaghan (Kaghan/Kagan) was Turkic, Khaghan was Mongolian. Later, Qaghan turned to Khâqân in Middle Turkic while Khaghan became Khaan in Mongolian.

In that case, which was the version first used by the Rouran and the Tuoba Xianbei: Qaghan or Khaghan? Do they sound different? I have heard that the Tuoba had a Turkic language, but the Xianbei mostly spoke a Mongolian language.

I don't know, because both are Kehan 可汗 in Chinese. But I suppose the earliest useage might have been Khaghan.


Yes, 'Q' in Qaghan is a "Hard K" whereas 'Kh' in Khaghan is like the German "ch" sound.


The Tuoba used lots of Turkic words but we don't know which language exactly they used.

yes ,but you should know most of uyhgur live in the south !!!

^There are Uygurs in Urumqi too.

Are you really Uygur? Yakshi chush korung?

men uyghur .gapingiz ba ma ? siz mu uyghur mu ?

Hi,

Im claiming the Uyghurs existed 2000years back. anyone in dispute of this raise their hands.

Im doing this because some westerner doens't believe me. oh well, just present something to that disproves this

Hi, but the onus is on you to prove they existed 2000 years ago, not the other way around. It like if I claim paper was already invented and used during the Han dynasty, it is up to me to prove that it is true, and not call on others to disprove it.

it ultimately depends if you believe the Uygurs of today are the same as their nomadic ancestors in the past. That's a subject of great debate in itself. There was a long period of time when the people of Xinjiang stopped addressing themself as "Uygur" etc.. if you were to ask them where they are from.. they'd first either simply say Turk or non Turk.. and if you wanted specifics, say "Turpanlik" or "Kashgarlik", etc. meaning they'd usually address themselves as an Oasis dweller, and by which oasis town they lived in (most of which have been classified as Uygurs of today).. or if they are nomadic Turks (Kyrgyz and Kazakhs). They also physically differ between each oasis too.. Turpanlik tend to have more mongoloid features than say Kashgarlik who look more caucasian.

I'll tell you this though.. many linguists (both western and chinese) believe that the Yughur minority (Sarigh Uygur, or Yellow Uygur) are the closest descendents of the ancient Uygurs of the Mongol steppes. While on the other hand, modern Uygurs are culturally, linguistically, and for the most part.. physically almost the same as the Uzbeks of Uzbekistan. The language is more like a dialect of each other.

The Uyghurs were originially a member of the Gaoche peoples, who turned into the Tiele peoples in the 6th century. The Gaoche's ancestors are the Eastern Dingling for sure, but we don't know if an Uyghur tribe existed among the Dingling or not (the Uyghurs were formed probably in the Gaoche period). However, the Uyghurs started becoming a significiant people in the 620s.

umm i dont khow were u get that the scythians were white but they werent they have found paintins that show that scythians have an asiatic look scythians are the ansestors of mongolians and the turks and the sibirian people.the only reson the uguyrs look cacosoid now is becuase they have mixed witht the people that they radided...and scythians are considered to be turanian wich is a asiatic mongolic race that mongols huns and turks belong to the only reson people try to call them white becuase they confuse them with the aryans who accely invaded some of the scythian lands..

I would like to know what painting you are refering to. Scythians were Indoeuropeans. They were the last Indoeuropean ethnos that retained the original Indoeuropean lifestyle of nomadic horsemen. The Pontic Steppe (i.e. north coast of the Black Sea) was later inhabitted by various nomadic groups: Sarmatians, Alans, Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Khazars, Pechenges, Cumans, Crimean Tatars. Usually the new group simply drove off the ruling classes of the previous one and took their place. The newcomers quickly mixed with the locals. For example 17th century Tatars had little in common with their Asian ancestors in sense of appearance due to mixing with the local population. In royal castle of Warsaw there is a painting depicting Tatar envoys to Polish king. They look basically like Europeans.