http://english.people.com.cn/200704/04/eng...404_363720.html

Good pics.

If I just looked at the column itself, I would have mistaken it to come from somewhere from Persia to Greece. I wonder if the Han tomb got its idea from the Middle East traders?

It's not one that matches any known column order to be sure though it seems closest to Doric based on the simplicity of the design. However it departs from Greek Doric in that it does not have a circular capital and has a base. The fact that the Han column has a base to begin with makes it seem more like a Romanised Doric column.

Certainly not done by a skilled craftmen but the fluting suggests that someone was trying to copy a Greek style column.

My guess would be someone got the idea from Kushan ruled former Greco-Bactria given documented Han contacts with that region. Please no lost-Crassus-legionaries-did-it theory here lol But then the idea that it's closest to a romanised Doric column might give this latter idea some mileage.

Wow, in Anhui too. Why would that be doing there???? this wrecks my mind.... ahh~~~~~~~~

Not Doric, but Corinthian columns did have base pedestals. Perhaps this influence travelled through the Hellenic world, and was borrowed through Seleucid Central Asia, where some Chinese traders would have likely travelled.

I do like the idea that the ancient people wandered around a lot more than previously thought, not just the nomads or traders, but also architects, intellectuals, scholars.

But the placing of that column ... just seems out of place somehow. Not centralised ... was there only 1 column? If so, the architect just didn't have a sense of beauty I could subsribe to.

There are certainly Greek and Persian influence in Chinese architecture especially during North and South Dynasties era along with the spread of Buddhism. Liang Sicheng in his A History of Chinese Architecture also talked about how Greek and Roman style column capitals influenced the dou gong structure on the Chinese column during North and South Dynasties though capital and dou gong are quite different structurally.

So this new find may push the contact between Chinese and Western architectural style even earlier?

Click to view attachment

Hi Ralph, Hi Snowybeagle

Let me say that I enjoy the material you guys post and usually find myself in agreement with it..

Allow me if you will, to speak in defense of that most unfortunate tomb Architect whose judgement of “ architectul or aesthetic sense." has been found to be inadequate” even further who now here stands accused of not having ‘a sense of beauty.’ So bear with me if you will.

When it comes to tombs and the purpose of tombs in the eyes of the western world, the ancient Egyptians are the definitive authorities. Writer Allen Drury in his novel “Return to Thebes” wrote of those who had pyramids built for themselves “ They always said they would live forever, and as forever goes in the lives of men, they have.”

This is what the man for whom this tomb was designed wanted. He knew his body would not be here forever, nevertheless it was his wish that his memory would.

REMEMBERANCE was then and in the tomb arena is still the key concept, the mission if you will.

I for a moment will put myself in the place of that ancient now maligned architect and let us assume I am lecturing to a couple of newcomers to my staff( whose names will go unmentioned but whose decendents could quite possibly be two esteemed members of this forum, I would be saying:

Our client has come from a civilization far away from here to be with us at the center of all under heaven. What can we design so a visitor to his tomb will be emotionally moved to know that he is in the presence of the spirit of what was a stranger amongst us, who nevertheless has risen to a position of power, respect, and wealth sufficient to have this custom designed monument erected in his memory? Our client often speaks of buildings in his homeland where the columns are of stone, are actually round, and have grooves carved in them that run vertically. In that land of barbarians they think the vertical lines make the columns look higher, more elegant He tells me the vertical groves are there to cause the interplay of light so as one views the column, the width of the shadow in the grove changes because of the roundness and the column looks rounder than our unadorned columns. There was a barbarian called (and I better speak softly because any rival that hears this will be knowing to much) . Our client claims one Vitruvius “was B.C Roman architect who described the correct Greek entasis of columns. (A true architectural entasis allows a column to appear the same diameter from the base to the capital.)
Without this entasis, a column tends to look distorted, appearing thicker at the bottom and top. When a column follows these true architectural guidelines, it reflects the aesthetically pleasing genius of the ancient Greeks and Romans” or so the barbarians think. Our column is two short to bother with that theory, or the one where the height has to be so many times the diameter.

However what can we do to make this tomb special? What if I place one of these barbarian columns right in the tomb. Nobody here in the center of all under heaven has even heard of these barbarian columns, except from our client. I myself am not even sure of what they look like, but I can work from our clients description.

Why just last week my brother–in-law, the best artist in China, was asked by the king “ what is hardest to draw and what is easiest? That cagey relative of mine said something like “people and dogs are the hardest, ghosts are the easiest” why is that, asked the king. “ because everybody knows what people and dogs look like, but nobody knows what a ghost looks like” was the reply. The same goes for our column. People around here all hear our client talk about it, they associate our client with the culture loves these crazy columns, but they do not know what one looks like, let’s do it.

Good concept, this thing better be free standing so it will stand out, it will stand alone that way we can be sure to be the center of attention, we better not put it in the middle of the walkway because we want it viewed from some distance even when they walk right by it, and that walkway in none too wide. We had better not depend on this thing to too much work, it will not be load bearing, but it will look like it is.

Yes great idea and it fits right in with the cutting edge top secret thinking of people who claim one can with skill use the tangible to influence the intangible and the intangible to influence the tangible. I want to influence the emotion to project the concept that our client was a stranger who came to stay among us but wanted all to know that his native culture was different than ours and while he respected ours he was proud of his. And that his offspring when they visit the tomb, should feel that feeling, be moved by it and be proud, and that most important he will be remembered.

So, we will explain to our client that this tangible, here it is, real thing, the column that is the symbol of his native culture, the centerpiece of the tomb, can stir the emotions of my family and viewers. By the gods I am using the tangible to influence the intangible… Stone to move the mind.
Perhaps those two newcomers would say to the Architect……”.how to you know that future generations will not take a quick look at this tomb and say:

“But the placing of that column ... just seems out of place somehow. Not centralised ... was there only 1 column? If so, the architect just didn't have a sense of beauty I could subsribe to.”

And the other one would chime in with "Why the single free standing column placed to the side of the passageway? It really makes no architectual or aesthetic sense."

And perhaps the poor ancient architect would just look at the two of them, say not a word, just shake his head and think about a time when when he and his wife presented a child with a box containing a most wonderus and special toy and how we beamed with anticipation of the delight this toy would bring the child.

The little boy opened the box, put the toy on the floor and with the biggest smile in the world played with the box the rest of the night.

Well, the defense rests

Leave me some !!

The tomb owner is foreign? Why do you say that?

[quote name='ralphrepo' date='Jul 14 2007, 09:53 AM' post='4897331']


Give me some of whatever it is you're smoking

Ralph

Hi Ralph and Company

Quote :"And perhaps the poor ancient architect would just look at the two of them, say not a word, just shake his head." And perhaps in light of some recent posting, he would have chosen the correct path,

Greco-Roman column architecture is recognizably distinct from Egyptian.
And while there was much cultural exchange among the Mediterranean nations, and Egypt was for a long time much more advanced than other Mediterranean nations, ancient Greece was never "colonized" by Egyptians. If anything, the reverse took place by Egypt's waning days (see Ptolemaic dynasty).

Old news?

I have read Martin Bernal's books as well as the historical sources he refers to. He made a lot out of very slim and shaky philological and linguistic evidence. The best part of his work I think is the discussion of modern European anti-Semitisim and how it affected the outlook of classical studies. But this critique (which he turned into a conspiracy theory) does not itself validate his major ideas.

There are some powerful refutations of his thesis out there, including the book by Mary Lefkowitz. This was brought up on another recent thread (google Afrocentrism on CHF). Have fun reading up....

No Western Civilisation, huh?
I have come across half-wits on the internet far too often.

If I hadn't heard of this poorly conceived pseudo-historical book before, if you had a proper use of grammar and firstly if you even spelt 'Black Athena' correctly you might have more luck passing off your fancies on a Chinese History Forum.
Your type has already come and gone in the past, since they have no real interest in Chinese history.



If you are capable of doing more than just latching onto ideas that make you feel good I suggest you read;
Black Athena Revisited
...'In this collection of twenty essays, leading scholars in a broad range of disciplines confront the claims made by Martin Bernal in Black Athena: The Afroasiatic Roots of Classical Civilization. In that work, Bernal proposed a radical reinterpretati on of the roots of classical civilization, contending that ancient Greek culture derived from Egypt and Phoenicia and that European scholars have been biased against the notion of Egyptian and Phoenician influence on Western civilization. The contributors to this volume argue that Bernal's claims are exaggerated and in many cases unjustified.

The contributors are:

John Baines, professor of Egyptology, University of Oxford
Kathryn A. Bard, assistant professor of archaeology, Boston University
C. Loring Brace, professor of anthropology and curator of biological anthropology in the Museum of Anthropology, University of Michigan
John E. Coleman, professor of classics, Cornell University
Edith Hall, lecturer in classics, University of Reading, England
Jay H. Jasanoff, Jacob Gould Schurman Professor of Linguistics, Cornell University
Richard Jenkyns, fellow and tutor, Lady Margaret Hall, Oxford, and university lecturer in classics, University of Oxford
Mary R. Lefkowitz, Andrew W. Mellon Professor in the Humanities, Wellesley College
Mario Liverani, professor of ancient near eastern history, Universita di Roma, "La Sapienza"
Sarah P. Morris, professor of classics, University of California at Los Angeles
Robert E. Norton, associate professor of German, Vassar College
Alan Nussbaum, associate professor of classics, Cornell University
David O'Connor, professor of Egyptology and curator in charge of the Egyptian section of the University Museum, University of Pennsylvania
Robert Palter, Dana Professor Emeritus of the History of Science, Trinity College, Connecticut
Guy MacLean Rogers, associate professor of Greek and Latin and history, Wellesley College
Frank M. Snowden, Jr., professor of classics emeritus, Howard University
Lawrence A. Tritle, associate professor of history, Loyola Marymount University
Emily T. Vermeule, Samuel E. Zemurray, Jr., and Doris Zemurray Stone-Radcliffe Professor Emerita, Harvard University
Frank J. Yurco, Egyptologist, Field Museum of Natural History and the University of Chicago '
http://www.ibiblio.org/uncpress/newsbytes/lefko.html

But those folk are all 'white-devils' I suppose.

I might also suggest;
Not Out of Africa
How Afrocentrism Became an Excuse to Teach Myth as History
by Mary Lefkowitz

Here are some issues over the Bernal pseudo-history discussed; http://www.historyplace.com/pointsofview/not-out.htm
Topics there which might help you from a delusion (but then again, probably not).
"Was Socrates Black?"
"Did ancient Greek religion and culture derive from Egypt? "
"Did Plato Study in Egypt?"
"Why claim that Greek philosophy was stolen from Egypt? "
etc.

An important extract; "although the myth may encourage and perhaps even "empower" African-Americans, its use has a destructive side, which cannot and should not be overlooked. First of all, it offers them a "story" instead of history. It also suggests that African-Americans need to learn only what they choose to believe about the past."

Good sir, bull is tolerated to an extent on this forum, but your blatant anti-white racism will have to stop. You're getting a 20% warning.

And one question. What are you doing here? Are you here to study Chinese history at all? Or are you just here to promote an agenda? If the latter, stop wasting your breath.

While I'm sure no one really took it as a big deal, what's the point of the last part of your sig anyways? The manner of the declaration seems almost confrontational, even if no one took it that way.

To others: Please resume the conversation from the point before the interruption, and stop feeding the troll. Thanks.

Well you never know.....over 100,000 years anything could happen....the past 3000 years the chinese language has changed GREATLY. imagine what in 10,000? so it is possible that the negroid people culture Evolved into the latin culture, not saying they stole from the asian islam world.