There is some record like "蠻 者 ， 閩 也 。 南 夷 之 名 ； 蠻 亦 稱 越 。 此 言 自 號 句 吳". What relationships do they have with the Han Chinese (漢族)? Where did they live, in cuurent China?
What language did they use?
What cultures did they have?
Are they the same people with Han-Chinese? If so, why?,
If not why?
What contributions did they make in Chinese history?
Who are their closest descendants?

Thanks for your responses!

You can refer to this thread
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...t&p=4714791
on information about Min/Yue

"man 蠻" in chinese generally means "barbarian", while the term "yi 夷" describes a similar term meaning "uncivilized outside border people". These were terms used by the han-chinese when they referred to 'uncivilized' people living outside the border of central China. Nan Yi (Southern Yi) refers to the "100 Yue People" ( many uncivilized tribes) living in what's now Southern China (today's Fujian, Guangdong region) 2000 years ago.

There are many suggestions to what the "100 Yue people" had become today. Some people mentioned that that these "100 Yue People" have been largely sinificized or mixed with the Han-chinese to formed what's today the Fujianese, Cantonese etc. Some mentioned they have disappeared today.



They use Min-nan language which forms today's Southern Min dialect in Fujian province. This dialect is commonly known as Hokkien or Fujianese or Taiwanese Holo in Taiwan.



They formed the Southern Min culture or "Bai Yue culture".



No, they were different from han-chinese. But Min people had largely been sinificized 2000 years ago or mixed with han-chinese to formed what's today Fujianese.



The word "min" means "an insect in a door". It's what han-chinese regards the min in the past. Min-Yue was conquered by Han Wudi during Han dynasty 2000 years ago.



I am a Taiwanese, and my dialect is Southern Min (Min-Nan dialect), where my ancestor can be traced back to Fujian province. My ancestors can possibly originate from Min 2000 years ago, or from Heluo (in Henan province). The migration history is complex. But today's Fujianese can be said to be their closest descendents.

Hi Aguda,

The passage you quote comes from a commentary to the Shiji (chapter 31), commenting on the following sentence :

太 伯 之 奔 荊 蠻 ， 自 號 句 吳
Tai Bo (the legendary founder of the state of Wu) fled to the Mans of Jing (old name of Chu), and renamed Gou to Wu.

In ancient texts, Man (蠻) is the common designation for all less civilised people ("barbarians" 夷, in the eyes of ancient chinese writers) living in the south of the central plains, along the course of the Changjiang and in the regions to the south of it. Min (閩) is another word for these people (which seems to appear at a later date, late Warring States or Han). And Yue (越) is a more specific term for the easternmost Man, those living in modern Zhejiang, or south of it, but it is sometimes used as a synonym to Man.

It is thought that these people were of a different ethnicity than the people of the Central Plains, and they most certainly had a different language. The original Chu culture is thought to be Man (see the threads on Chu in the preQin forum). Anthropogists believe that they were pushed to the south as China expanded. The Yue are claimed by some vietnamese as their ancestors, and I have read somewhere that the Man were the ancestors of the Lao and Thai.

But it is clear that, even if they were from a different ethnicity, the Man and the people of the Central Plain mixed a lot, since very long ago. For instance, the kings of Wu (a "barbarian" kingdom) claimed to be descended from the royal Zhou house, and ancient texts show, around the royal house of Chu (most probably Man), people originating from the Central Plains.

Besides, there is a possibility that the word "barbarian" (Yi) had more to do with difference in culture, or just the fact that a group of people did not recignize the supremacy of the Zhou kings, than with ethnicity.

As for their contribution to Chinese history, the three southern states of the Spring and Autumn era, Wu, Yue and Chu, are claimed to be Man. Wu and Yue are mostly famous for the war between them at the end of the sixth and the beginning of the fifth BC, and Chu was an important player in chinese history throughout the Zhou dynasty. Daoism is often thought to originate in Chu, and Wu and Yue were renowned for their swords.

Francois

I don't think they used Minnan language. None of the modern Min languages of e.g. Minbei, Mindong either. Should be quite different. May not be even be a language inbetween of the all Min languages as I don't think anybody kept the language constant over a time of 2000 years.

That's not the meaning. That's the shape of the character.
As you can see 蠻 also have the 虫 (serpent or what animal is this?). (虫 is also written as 虺(hui3) and are also abused by simplification movement: fused with 蟲)
The "門" and the above part of "變" just represents the sound for these kinds of "虫".
門 encloses the semantic part when it becomes the phonetic guide: 悶聞.
In fact, 門 still sounds quite similar to 閩 in modern age.

Thanks for your response. Then, what is the "Han-Chinese"? How they are different from the "man 蠻" and "yi 夷"? Ist an ethnic concept, geographic concept or linguistic concept? If so, how are they different from each other in respect to those asspects, above?



Who are the Heluo people?

The answer to your question can be found in the thread
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2876

Yun, one of staffs, is currenting writing his master thesis on the concept of "Hua" (meaning 'civilized') and "Yi" (meaning "outside civilization"), which is going to redefine the concept of "sinification".

In my view, "han-chinese" is more of a cultural identity and a name to refer to the ethnic group in today's China who had inherited the han culture and han-language.
The name "han" chinese comes from han dynasty (206 BC-220AD) and used to refer to people living in the han dynasty. But by Song/Ming/Qing, it began to refer to people of central plain China, as opposed to Khitan,Mongols, Manchus.

Many of our CHF scholars had argued that the chinese didn't have the concept of race/ethnicity until 1800s. That probably means "ethnic han-chinese" was only a recent invention to 'forge' a chinese identity.



They were said to be the ancestors of Fujianese/Taiwanese, who speaks today's Taiwanese Holo language (hokkien)


For more info, refer to
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=10663

“Han Chinese” is just a term for ethnic Chinese in comparison to ethnic minorities.
Ethnic Chinese referring to speakers of a Sinitic language, who practice Chinese culture and claim ancestry from China proper (which itself as geographically evolved from just the North China plain to include all of the eastern half of the modern day P.R.C) and if you want to get into borderline pseudo science, you can throw in that Y chromosome marker that supposedly all “Han” regardless of North or south have.

the term “Han” also runs into shades of gray when dealing with minorities who are heavily Sinicized like Manchu or even Muslim Hui.

Outside of China, “Han” a meaningless term. non-Chinese would just refer to us as “Chinese”. try to explain the difference between “Han Chinese” and regular “Chinese” to a westerner and you’ll get some funny looks

Its really funny reading these nationalists(all types) and half assed pseudo historians try to apply the term anachronistically to early bronze age or even Neolithic China

When Qin Shi Wang conquered "the world" - TianXia - and established the Empire of China,
was it considered as the empire of Han people, and of course, the minorities?

When ZhaoTuo rebelled and established the nation - the state - of Nan Yue,
was it considered as a state of Han people? Did he attempt to build a non-Han nation there?

There were more than a single ZhaoTuo rebelling against the central authority in China history,
was there any one who attempted to build a non-Han nation?

When did the Han people first have the concept of a people and a country for themselves?
(Even at that time, there may not be the Han dynasty yet, of course.)

Your silent speach appeares to have such a power that it has quietened the whole mouthes of the readers in this forum!

These questions are rather asked anachronistically. Firstly, the Qin empire, as were all empires and kingdoms established just about anywhere in East Asia at the time were based on family lines, not on ethnicity. The Qin empire was established for the Yin family of the Qin, not any particular ethnic group. This empire would include people of various ethnicity, who would eventually be called people of Qin, which is a more political term. Similarily, Zhao Tuo's empire is based on the Zhao family, not any ethnic group. The common notion during that time was that countries belonged to the ruler, not the people. The concept of Nations States did not exist, hence to ask whether Qin attempt to establish an empire for the Han or not or whether Zhao Tuo attempt to establish an empire of the Han or not is meaningless. They did neither, their objective was to establish a kingdom that was ruled by their family line.



According to Yun, the concept of Han to designate a people did not appear until the end of AOF. The question whether Han people have the concept of a country for themselves really only emerged during the late Qing. Prior to that it was never really an issue since all empires established in China were multiethnic in nature since the concept of nation states did not exist in East Asia.