Completed a business presentation today. During the course of the demostration, this Cardinal brought up "the concept of the "Chinese Strategies" mindset. The attendees did not believe in it. Can't change their viewpoint. Decided to let them have their opinion while I scanned for flaws in their argument.

In other discussions, most of my associates in the "Ivy League" thinks that Chinese strategies principles are a bunch of phooey. In most cases, they are only familiarized with Sun Zi AoW and their interpretation is usually quite feeble.

Done some research. Heard that the Japanese are quite superior to the Chinese in the strategy game (planning and execution). US people thinks that they know the strategy game, but as some of us know that they are slowly losing out to the Chinese.

Which country do you think is the best in applying the principles from the Chinese strategy classics? China, Japan, U.S., Korea, or India. (Name some others)

This Chief Architect is still an amateur in the strategy game. He would like to hear from "The Powers To Be" on this topic, before expousing his opinion.

from what I've heard, As soon as the Art of War was discovered and translated, The Japanese started applying it to alot of things.

I believe they were the first to implement it in the corporate "warfare"

Quite agree with you.

The Chinese and US ppl. that this Cardinal talks to, knows how to talk the game of detailed strategizing pretty well, but most of them can't play the game. They have a "performance" problem. An inability to execute with initiative.

Some of them rather focus on the their vision and their so-called leadership as a part of their "strategy" game. They usually lead from the back row.

Should have taken inserted a poll into this topic!?

Hindsight is 20/20.

Could you explain your presentation more and their reactions to it?

"Those who know do not preach, those who preach do not know"
- lao tzu

well put, wang yun

the forum softwar ate my post

I'm too drunk to re-type it

guess I am a poor stragetist not seeing that one coming

anyways, American in general do not practise stragetic thought because USA #1 and everyone will become more like Americans in the long run - USA! USA! USA!

It is incomprehensible to the average American that anything can be different than that - USA! USA! USA! - hence Chinese stragetic thought is phooy because it may not generate the desired American-centric-surpreme-primacy outcome. Phooey!

All strategic thought is, is thinking 2 to 3 steps ahead. Most people are unable to even think 1 step ahead.

Chinese people value strategic thought, but regardless of nationality or upbringing, most people cannot think 2 to 3 steps ahead accurately.

Got to go now, I want to watch some TV. (bet you didn't see that one coming).

I think it is a matter of fashion. There always are one or two fashionable management theories among business people, and especially young professionals out of business schools. These change over time, and previous theories are considered phooey because they're out a fashion.

When I was a student, it was all about japanese organisation and methods... Then we had psychological approaches to leadership (from group dynamics to NLP). Then we had chinese strategy, and all the Art of War applied to business books, which was part of a larger pattern of applying military concepts to business. And there's probably a new theory now, which will rule for a few years.

Note that this is not specific to management: market research and advertising follow the same kind of "fashion cycles".

Francois

[quote name='CARDINAL009' date='May 22 2007, 04:15 PM' post='4889914']
Completed a business presentation today. During the course of the demostration, this Cardinal brought up "the concept of the "Chinese Strategies" mindset. The attendees did not believe in it. Can't change their viewpoint. Decided to let them have their opinion while I scanned for flaws in their argument.


MGV says : Wise move

CARDINAL009 said :In other discussions, most of my associates in the "Ivy League" thinks that Chinese strategies principles are a bunch of phooey. In most cases, they are only familiarized with Sun Zi AoW and their interpretation is usually quite feeble.


MGV replies : Most of "your associates " are perhaps the very ones who need professional guidance in this field, and as is usually the case the very ones who will offer the most resistance. Again as is the case, their weakness to reason will be avarice ( inordinate greed ). Promise of big profit is your best approach if you can get an opening with them.

CARDINAL009 said : Done some research. Heard that the Japanese are quite superior to the Chinese in the strategy game (planning and execution). US people thinks that they know the strategy game, but as some of us know that they are slowly losing out to the Chinese.

MGV replies: Are you talking about the various governments or the warring corporations? The winners in the warring corporations are the ones who are making the biggest return on each dollar invested. These winners are and will remain unknown to the outside world in order to protect themselves from both tax starved marauding governments as well as ruthless international competitors

CARDINAL009 said :Which country do you think is the best in applying the principles from the Chinese strategy classics? China, Japan, U.S., Korea, or India. (Name some others)

MGV replies : I do not have sufficient grasp of the situation to even hazard a valid guess

CARDINAL009 said:This Chief Architect is still an amateur in the strategy game.

MGC says I do believe I have a sufficient grasp of the situation to say : this is not true

Trends come. Trends go.

It is the mastery of strategic and tactical fundamentals that counts

True, but in the business world, this mastery usually comes (when it comes) as one builds up experience (in the words of one of my former bosses : "when you will have made as many mistakes as me, you will lead the company..."). As such, all the "recipes" (which includes the Sunzi for business types) are intended as shortcuts, which are supposed to help aspiring young professional to learn faster. They work to some extend, so far everybody has read the same book, ie plays by the same rules. Successful business recipes are self fulfilling prophecies.

So yes, there are fundamental principles, but those are the kind of lessons one learns very fast through one's mistakes.

At a higher level, I don't think there is a "better" strategic principle/system, many (most?) systems work, so long they are applied consistently, and adapted to the person who uses them. In the market where I work, I know very successful people who are ordered and work in teams, and very successful people who act alone and are confused and unpredictable. Some are indirect and subtle, others very direct and brutal. There just doesn't seem to be one method, or one set of rules, which 'works better'.

One thing I have noticed, though, is that all successful people tend to be consistent, ie stick to one system, and choose principles adapted to their own personality. If you're naturally shy and introverted, trying to be bold and rash, because the manual says so, won't work. If you're outspoken and can't keep a secret, don't even think of using an indirect approach...

In the end, it is all about knowing oneself, and sticking to one's guns.

I think this explains why some would be crazy about the chinese strategic principles (or, rather, the romanced idea we, moderners, have of it), and some would dismiss them, but this would be true for any other system too. So, I suppose the best you can do is present those principles to the people who are adapted to them...

Francois

Agreed with you in terms of systems.

In my days of playing chess, go or even poker, seen bad players get lucky and win because of a tactical mistake by the opposition. Not because they are fundamentally good.

Consciously knowing oneself, what is the big picture and what are the current settings is the general key. Then spending time preparing for positive and negative case scenarios is the next level below.

In order to do that, one's must have the clear understanding of the general principles and specific principles.

One can learn all the lessons in the world. If he or she is not consciously aware themselves, their grand surroundings and what is ahead. The lessons from one's reading and experience become worthless.

Cardinal Rule: There is no superior system. Just superior ppl executing concepts from it.

###

Food for thought: When a professional sport coach succeeds, does he credit his success to his reading of Sunz's AoW i? When he fails, does he credit his failure to his reading of Sunz's AoW or the players for their inability to execute?

### ###

As a consultant, my role is to show the client a strategic system that works. It is up to them to determine whether they are willing to use it.

In order for any plan to succeed, the team needs to have a certain type of chemistry in order for everyone to collaborate as a team. So many factors. The secret is having a "big picture" approach that encompasses the general points. If one knows this approach, he will be the grand paradigm shifter.

My associates who surfed this site, know what this Cardinal is talking about.

### ###

IMO that depends more on individual ability than nationality don't you think ?

It's a little the same when one asks: "Which martial art is the best ?"
There is no superior technique, only superior state of mind and superior ability of an individual to use the right methods at the right time and in the right circumstances with the resources currently available.

The Japanese had actually studied alot about Sun Tzu AoW. Sun Tzu's AoW was spreaded to Japan during Tang dynasty era, and became the focal point for Japanese military. After WWII, many of the former soldiers who founded the Japanese business applied Sun Tzu's AoW in their business to outwit their competitors, to win business. IIRC, the Japanese were the first to apply Sun Tzu in modern-day business.

The chinese has a research institute devoted to research about Sun Tzu's Art of War called 中国孙子兵法研究会 at http://www.szbf.cn. But alot of business application were initiated from Japanese or American.

The West was the first to apply Sun Tzu's AoW to soccer and other games. Thus, it was in fact that the west that gave the chinese the idea of applying Sun Tzu to many aspects of live with the sole purpose of 'winning'.

If you were to use today's modern economic and business terms, then clearly Sun Tzu's AoW teaches you how to be 'competitive'. Sun Tzu stresses on "知彼知已，胜乃不殆；知天知地，胜乃不穷" (knowing thyself and others, win without dwindling; knowing the heaven and earth, win without having limit). In short, this means "knowledge/information is everything". If you're able to obtain large amount of knowledge/information/intelligence (in particular market information and technology information), then you're able to calculate and predict the outcome of winning a business. For this reason, many Japanese/American conglomerate has established branch office around the world with one sole purpose: to obtain large amount of intelligence for their business. Also, through business/human network, one is able to obtain large amount of business information.

Sun Tzu's also asked when analysing business situation to analyse the "道" (The Way - Politics)、"天" (Heaven - Timing/Opportunity)、"地" (Earth - Geographic advantage)、"将" (General - talents in company)、"法" (law - legal situation). From there, you will be able to draft strategy to deal with the competitive environment.

In the global economy, certain microculture(s) are better than others in certain fields. This is what this Cardinal was referring to

Korea Outclassed by China in 'Art of War'
A classic has recently captivated not only universities and businesses but also political circles and the military in China. It's "The Art of War", a military treatise written during the 6th century BC by Sun Tzu. Prominent universities like Peking University, Tsinghua University and Fudan University last year opened courses called "The Art of War and Business Strategy" and similar titles as required subjects in Chinese Studies classes taught to CEOs.

The People's Liberation Army has formally adopted "The Art of War", edited by the Academy of Military Science, as a training text for all officers, and this year began to lecture on the treatise to senior foreign officers undergoing training in China.

The Chinese government has kicked off the "globalization" of the book. Signaling this was the inauguration in May of Sun Tzu Memorial Hall in his hometown of Suzhou on the occasion of his 2,518th birthday. Attending the event were over 150 "Art of War" experts from more than ten countries including Taiwan, Japan, Iran, the U.S and Malaysia. Sun Tzu Memorial Hall is scheduled to deliver online specialized "Art of War" lectures created for bureaucrats, business managers and graduate students.

More notable is the fact that Chinese leaders personally apply, with success, the principles of the book at home and abroad. A case in point is the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation that closed Sunday in Sydney. The U.S., Japan and Australia held a security strategy summit, the first of its kind, in a bid to build a "net" encircling China. Chinese President Hu Jintao meanwhile didn't denounce the meeting or even show much concern about it. Instead, he secured a promise from Australia, a spoke of the trilateral alliance, to hold an annual security dialogue with China at a level identical with that of the U.S., and to supply China with one million tons of natural gas over the next 20 years.

Sun Tzu's strategies have also been applied in domestic politics. Hu, who has been on the defensive from the "regency power" of his predecessor Jiang Zemin, is solidifying his position by expanding his strength with patience and prudence rather than through fighting or confrontation. He recently managed to quietly replace his chief bodyguard, Director of the Central Guard Bureau You Xigui, 68, a close associate of Jiang who had held the post for a decade.

Applied here is this core idea of the treatise: "It's better to win without a fight than to fight 100 wars and win 100 wars." Hu displayed his admiration for the book by presenting copies to U.S. President George W. Bush and his staff last May.

How about turning attention to ourselves? The "war with the press" the government launched upon its inauguration has no end in sight; rifts with the U.S. and Japan under the excuse of self-reliance remain unmended. And now the administration has sued the leading opposition presidential nominee, waging an unprecedented "war with the opposition" toward the end of its tenure.

"The best military strategy is to crush the enemy's intent beforehand; the worst military strategy is to directly attack the enemy's castle," Sun Tzu wrote. Will we ever have an advanced leader who could impress Sun Tzu? A leader worthy of guiding the 10th largest economy in the world?

This column was contributed by Song Eui-dal, the Chosun Ilbo's correspondent in Hong Kong.


http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/new...0709110007.html

[quote name='CARDINAL009' date='May 22 2007, 03:15 PM' post='4889914']


Which country do you think is the best in applying the principles from the Chinese strategy classics? China, Japan, U.S., Korea, or India. (Name some others)

This Chief Architect is still an amateur in the strategy game. He would like to hear from "The Powers To Be" on this topic, before expousing his opinion.

Hi CARDINAL009

While I am not one of the "Powers To Be" and indeed not qualified to render a rational informed opinion of my own, I can only pass on the opinion of a professional business strategist friend in whom I have the utmost confidence : Korea.

If one has access to Dish Network channel 265 CCTV9, I suspect they would be impressed, as I have been with with the image they are projecting of the business climate in China. ( this China opinion is purely mine). So perhaps in the near future it will be China.

Those who insert Chinese Art of War as their expertise, are the real experts- "The consummate masters of the Chinese Art of War." Am betting that they have more information than I do.

Greetings CARDUNAL009

I believe the question you posted was :

"Which country do you think is the best in applying the principles from the Chinese strategy classics? China, Japan, U.S., Korea, or India. (Name some others)" ?

Insomuch as your most recent posting does not answer the question, will you answer the question for us now?

I look forward to your answer not so much for the answer, but for the technique you choose in presenting your replys.

Always a pleasure to read between your lines. There is usually a lot more to think about in your postings than is apparent from the first glance. I enjoy reading your disclaimers.

Believe my disclaimer is valid.

Think the best strategic mind in CHF lies somewhere in our midst.

I am waitiing for a lesson from you and the many geniuses of CHF.

Hey Cardinal,

In my opinion, luxembourg is the best at applying the principles of the Art of War. They maintain the richest country in the world per captita to date. They have had significant growth in output and employment for quite some time now. Some major contributing factors in reaching this status is due to the conditions they provided to attract the employment of surrounding country's workers. As well they are positioned near their major international trade partners, just to mention a couple of reasons.

Cheers

Who is currently #1 in terms of global marketplace domination? (hint: I believe they are using principles from the Chinese Strategy Classics)

Hey Cardinal,

From a gross national income perspective, the United States is number 1. GNI per captita in US dollars they rank 10. Now Luxembourg doesn't even come close to competing with the United States on a gross national income perspective but they do hold the number 1 place for GNI per captita.

Now lets look at World Competativeness Yearbook rankings. Again the United States ranks number 1. Luxembourg though is not far behind placing 4th on the list; good standing considering the signifant population difference.

So would you say that the United states uses the principles from the Chinese Strategy Classics best because of their superior position in the global marketplace? I think that this position stands to reason this point but I think the manor in which a country reaches this position also tells the tale of whether they are best using the principles of the Chinese classics best. The idea is to take positions and move in ways that extinquish resistance, thus resources aren't being unnecessarily spent.

Luxembourg is highly competitive for their size, and gains their ground from using surrounding country's man power. As well they have a strong strategic position for internation trade; Chinese military classics speak of using other's resources to gain and take positions of favour. They not only take advantage of other country's work force but don't use war as a means for their gains. They may not dominate the global market as a whole, but they as a single country are the richest per captita in the world from taking the right opportunities and positions, thus they don't grind with anyone.

Just some thoughts. I would imagine that you know more than me, so you opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards

My opinion is not worth much. I am not an expert like other CHF members. Esp those who say that AoW is their expertise.

###

However, most major US businesses prevail in terms of attrition via back door maneuvering.
Most small businesses do not have the resources to do that. They believe if they act like F500 businesses, they will prevail.

In terms of Luxembourg, they play within their game. Never playing past their limitations without over extending themselves.

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My opinion is worthless. The CHF experts of AoW are more superior than I am. They know more about history than I do. With their grand knowledge, they should be able to implement their knowledge like field generals of olde.

With their grand knowledge, they should be able to focus on your immediate objective while minding the goal. They should be able to define an overview that links their goal to an incremental sequence of specific objectives. This means that they have mastered the Dao of Strategy.

This Cardinal bows to their greatness.