I heard Shanghainese were mostly made up by immigrants from the Jiangsu and Zhejiang over the past 200 years when Shanghai was established as a trading port/city.

I'm not too sure about Shanghainese history. can anyone tell me more about it?

Hua Ting prefecture was first seen at year 751, Tang dynasty. At the year 1277, the Hua Ting prefecture was split from Su Zhou county. Later it was upgraded to Hua Ting county. A year later, it was changed name to Song Jiang county. The history of Shanghai began. Located at the right wing of Jiangnan area, with developed land and river communications , geographical close to Su Zhou, and an exceptional good climate for crops to grow, Song Jiang county soon became a rich place in culture and economy, it was said its tax revenue surpassed the overoll revenue of He Bei province.
After the defeat of Ch'ing court in the Opium War with Britain, Shanghai was ceded to the British as one of the five trading port. Later, the west powers and Japanese set their concessions at Shanghai. They built lots of factories there, and a modern city gradually formed. People from all over the country came to Shanghai to seek their fortune, among them most were from JiangShu and Zhejiang provinces who escaped from wars. In the early 20th century, industry and commerce rapadly grew, which finally led Shanghai to a world known metropolis.
Shanghai language usuanlly refers to the language spoken in the downtown area. It belongs to Wu language system and is original from Songjiang county but later then heavily influneced by both Jiangshu and Zhejiang immigrants.

so the local shanghaiese are originally from the surrounding area (jiangsu, zhejiang), and not migrants from the north?...how come i read that they
are closer to northern chinese than southern chinese?...

Depends upon how north far you define. Migrants from ShuBEi( northern area of Jiangshu province) constitute a large proportion of the population in Shanghai.

They are mostly "middle" Chinese from the surrounding region, and thus closer in various ways to northern Chinese than a Cantonese, say.

No.. according to my observations, Shanghainese and people from the surrounding provinces look a equal mixture of north and south(slightly more). Why? example look at Hong Kong's first Chief Executive Tung chee hwa and Anson Chan - a hk civil servant. They could so pass for a cantonese. I've mistaken many Shanghainese or Zhejiang people for being cantonese many times..

I didn't say otherwise, although breaking down China into ever more smaller parts and generalizing will come closer to arbitrary personal impressions.

Is it true that the native Shanghainese are genetically close to the ancient Wa people?

i believe it has been shown shanghaiese are related to modern japanese and korean... if i am not mistaken, high frequency of Y chromosome haplotype O2b in these populations indicates their common ancestry...

Hi Soltung,

I am not familiar with the Wa people.

I don't think that you can arbitrarily segregate Shanghai people from the surrounding Wu speaking people. The only difference between Shanghainese and the surrounding Wu people is the urban/hinterland divide - (apart from some minor local expressions) not a linguistic or cultural divide.

With PRC strenuously promoting Mandarin in the Wu speaking area, within 1 or 2 generation, the Wu language/dialect will be of historic interest only.

I can find very little information on the native Wu people who lived in the lower Yangtze valley before the immigration of the Hua people from the north around 2,000 years ago. I am also unable to find information of the native Wu people assimilating to the Hua (or Han) people. If anyone has this information, please let me know.

which study you are refering to? i googled haplotype O2b among shanghainese,and found nothing

Not exactly true. Today's Shanghainese are still speaking lots of Shanghainese. The Wu language/dialect won't really disappear. There are also TV programs in Shanghainese dialects and many Shanghainese I know like to speak their own dialect, in particular the Zhejiang region dialects.

No. That's another urban legend started by irresponsible scholars.

If you say so.

I have not noticed any significant variation in the Wu dialect as spoken in different Wu speaking areas. (Are you aware of the Tom and Jerry controversy? - Shanghai TV producer wanted to dub the Tom and Jerry cartoons into the Wu dialect and show these cartoons on Shangahi TV. PRC government nixed that idiea - Tom and Jerry cartoons were only allowed to be dubbed into Mandarin, and show the Mandarin dubbed cartoon on Shanghai TV.) A lot of anger in Shanghai at that time. But Wu is a dying dialect/language. The greatest Shanghainese writer - Lu Xin was a great promoter of Putonghua (now called Mandarin).

That's what I've been told too. Also, there are a small portion that came from Guangdong and Shandong.

I'm 3-rd a generation Shanghainese. My grandparents are all from Zhejiang, but different region though. (Paternal side is Ningbo and maternal side Wenzhou) It's said that 1/3 of Shanghainese can trace ancestry to Ningbo area.

You're right... there are also people who came from GD as well. For example, Lai Man-Wai(黎民偉) - the father of HK cinema - was from Xinhui(Sun Wui), Guangdong but later moved to Hong Kong then Shanghai and created a movie company there.

I've read somewhere on the internet that some Guangdong people around the pearl river delta region(somewhere around Toisan) may have came from Zhejiang province. I have found some words in cantonese dialects that are similar to Wu example: Gu Gu(my Kaiping dialect) = big brother, Dai Ga(Standard Cantonese) = everyone, ngin(found in my Taishan + Kaiping dialect) = person, Yit + Chet or Tet + Giu (Taishan + Hoi Ping dialect) = 1 + 7 + 9, Ng + Luhk + baht (all cantonese dialects) = 5 + 6 + 8. Sap (Standard Cantonese) = 10.

Oh yeah, found the article: http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~alew/personal/othe...an/jigeili.html

in some Wu dialects they use the word Ho = Good, rather than Hao(Mandarin)...does anyone know which Wu dialect use "ho" ie Dai Ga Ho. I also heard that some say Ngo = me, rather than Ngu. What is funny is that the Wu speakers also use the "m" in some of their words to mean negation like in Canto and Hakka dialects ^^

Ho is used for 'good' in Hangzhou dialect, the same with Hakka. I thought Shanghainese say 'ala' for me?? 杭州 is something like 'hang zei', 6 is something like 'luk' like in Cantonese. I'm told that 2 is 'er', can anyone clarify?

You're right. "m" in front of a noun means the "lack of something". I think it comes from the word "勿" or "无", which is a more classic way of saying "no" as oppose to "没" used in modern written Chinese.

why is it that shanghainese can easily pass for a cantonese? hehe look at Tung Chee-hwa and Anson Chan ^^

Southern Chinese seem to be a united and successful people ^^

Shanghainess does say 'ala' for 'I', and it is the same as Ningbo dialect. I think 杭州 dialect had a lot of 'zei' sound for many words that pronounced 'zho', but 'zei' needed to pronounce lightly I think. My mom is from Hangzhou, and I think you are right about that pronounciation also. I am not sure about 'ho' for good or 'er' as 2. A lot of my dialects are mixed together. It's the problem of growing up in Taiwan.

I heard and read that 'luk' or 'lo' pronunciation for 6 was the Han people's original pronunciation. During the official definition for Mandarin pronounciation in early 20th century, the scholars involved picked 'liu', a Manchurian pronounciation, to show inclusion for the minority groups. Many older generations I know are still pronouncing 6 as 'luk' or 'lo'.

I also heard, during the early days of the republic (around 1911 or so), some Han people used Manchurian specific pronunciations like the number 6 to distinguish who was Han and who was Manchurian. Many Manchurians were beaten or killed because they don't pronounce 6 as 'luk' or 'lo'. I think many people just want to rob whoever down in luck and not necessarily because of racial motivation.

Shanghai was located in the area of ancient kingdom of Wu. According to Sima Qian, the rulers of Wu claimed to be descended from Taibo, the elder uncle of King Wen of Zhou. He felt that his younger brother, Jili, was wiser than him and deserved to inherit the throne, so Taibo fled to Wu and settled there. Three generations later, King Wu of Zhou defeated the last Yin emperor and gave kingdom of Wu to the descendents of Taibo. When Taibo arrived in Wu, the historical records claimed he found a group of natives who are half (or more than half) naked and have tattoos decorating their bodies. Those were the original Wu people. By the Spring and Autumn period, Wu was fairly civilized, but it was still considered a half barbaric state. Its capital was Suzhou.

Around the late Spring and Autumn era and early Warring States period, Wu became a fairly powerful state, and it had many conflicts with the kingdom of Yue to its south (Zhejiang area). The Yue people's legend said that they were descendent from Xia (as in the first dynasty of China), but there was no concrete evidence. Eventually, Yue conquered Wu in 473 BC and moved its capital to Suzhou. Later, the state of Chu conquered Yue in 334 BC. Yue people were considered to be separated from the Wu people ethnically before Yue conquered Wu. After Yue conquered Wu, I would think there was some assimilation going on. After the fall of Yue, the ruling family moved to Fujian and set up the Minyue kingdom, which did not fall until ~150 BCE by the Han Dynasty. From this little bit of history, we know why Jiangsu, Zhejiang, and Fujian people are fairly closely related in the ancient time (the mixing of kingdom of Wu, Yue, and Chu).

There was also a reason for Cantonese and Wu people looking alike. My father told me that one of the traditions in the Southeast coastal areas is to adopt other people's sons and send the adopted sons oversea to make money for the family. In these areas, Fujian and Canton, there are not many good farm lands, and it is very hard to survive. The only way to make money was (and is still today) to go overseas or to other provinces. However, the parents did not want to risk their own children, so they bought children and adopt them as their own for this purpose. Children in Zhejiang province, especially in the south, were frequently kidnapped and shipped to Fujian and Canton for this reason. Many Fujianese or Cantonese today might actually had Zhejiang bloodline.

In addition, a lot of Zhejiang people moved to Shanghai or Hong Kong to do business in the last few hundred years. During WWII and after the Chinese civil war, many Shanghainese also moved their business to Hong Kong. I met many Hong Kong Chinese who told me that their family was actually from either Shanghai or Ningbo or other Jiangsu and Zhejiang cities. I also met a lot of Shanghainese who told me their family were originally from Zhejiang province. Many of the famous Hong Kong people were probably from Shanghai or Zhejiang originally. For example, Tung Chee-hwa's father Tung Hao-yun 董浩雲 was from Ningbo originally.

Regarding why just the regional people moved to Shanghai and not from further away, the reason is simple. In the old time, it was too hard to travel long distances, and Chinese do not like to move away from home town. If a Chinese died away from home, his family would try very hard to get him bury at home. Both my father and grandfather died in Taiwan, and they wanted to be buried back home. Fortunately, China opened up its borders, and I was able to get both of them home to bury. When people must leave home due to war or famine, they would travel to the regional centers of commerce instead of somewhere further. Generally, they would try to move back home before they die. Therefore, people from Zhejiang and Jiangsu would go to Shanghai, and people around Hebei would go to Beijing, etc.

In addition, these major cities became local commerce and cultural centers. When Mandarin was forming during Ming and Qing dynasties, each of the major city had its own Mandarin. Shanghainese was one of the Mandarins and called Shanghai Mandarin. Beijing Mandarin is called Beijing Mandarin, etc. There were another 4 or 5 major Mandarins as well as many smaller ones, like Hangzhou Mandarin, but I am not familiar with them. The idea was that everyone in the surrounding areas had their own dialects, but they would speak the regional Mandarin for official business or to someone from another city in the region. For example, my dad would speak his home town dialect with people from his home town, but he would speak Shanghainese to other Zhejiang or Jiangsu people.

The link to the Northern Chinese of Wu-Yue people is due to the high scholar concentration in this region (Jiangsu and Zhejiang provinces). Many famous scholars throughout the years of imperial China was from this region since Han dynasty. When they became high officials in court, they moved their family to the capitals at the time. Many of those capitals were in the North, like Xian and Beijing. They either settled in the capital or moved back to Wu area with their Northern concubines and servants. They also brought back many Northern style of food. Therefore, Shanghainese and the surrounding (Wu area) food actually had some Northern influences. If you read the biography of Yun Ren Chao, my favorite Chinese linguist and scholar, you would find the modern example of this phenomena in both Chao's family and his wife's Yang family.

Do you mean Japanese or Wu people?

If you mean Wu people, I have posted some information before this one.

If you mean ancient Japanese, here are some info I have:

Regarding the Wu-Yue (Shanghai and its surrounding areas) association with Japan, I read in recent years that there was an archaeology finding of a sword of Yue (about Warring State period 5th century B.C. to 221 B.C.) that was found in Japan around the similar period. The report said that scholars thought this finding might indicate that Japan had trading exchanges with Wu-Yue area around then. I am not sure where I read that particular report, but I guess it could be from a newspaper or the Historical Magazine from Taiwan. Since I can't cite a credible source here, I just want to throw this piece information out and hoping someone who have access to archaeology findings in Japan could verify whether it was truth or false. Also, there was no concrete evidence in my knowledge that Wu-Yue people or native Shanghainese had any genetical link to the ancient Japanese people (or Korean).

In the Ming and Qing dynasties, however, Japanese pirates frequented Chinese coastal areas, especially Zhejiang and Fujiang. A lot of Chinese pirates also mingled with the Japanese pirates. I have no doubt there were a lot of mixing of blood at that time. Koxinga (郑成功 Zhèng Chénggōng) was half Japanese and half Chinese.

If you listen to the Wu dialect spoken in shanghai (shanghainese). they sounds so similar to japanese. At first for me the first several times. Therefore I conclude that the Wu people and the Wa (japanese) are somehow hisrorically related.

BTW, Wu people is part of Bai Yue tribes, and they are called Wu Yue in the old days. So japanese language also got influence from Baiyue tribes which explained the half altaic half austro-asiatic chatracter of the japnese language

I heard that when Qin Shi Huang looked for the immortal exlixir, he had Xu Fu took 3000 good boys and 3000 nice girls to the island of the East. Those 3000 boys and girls were thought to come from the Wu-Yue region. That explains why nowadays Japanese sounds kind of like Shanghainese dialect, fast and monotonous words that spit out ...:-) Also, Japanese theatrical form "GO" stems from the word "Wu". Without goind into complexed and useless scientific reaearch, one can conclude that some elements of Japnese culture, people, language come from Wu-Yue.

i think it's possible since tattoo culture was famous among the Yue-Wu and was later passed on to the japanese...

Genetically, the people of Shanghai and Zhejiang may have more Yue genes compared to Cantonese and Fukienese.

From Su et. al 2000

The frequency of O1 gene (the original Bai Yue genetic marker) is found 26% of the people in Shanghai/Zhejiang. It is found in 20% of Cantonese. In Shandong, it is found in only 9% of the people.

The only difference is that there are more northern maternal markers in Shanghai/Zhejiang compared to Cantonese. The northern female migrants were more likely to survive the journey to Jiangnan region compared to deep south Lingnan region.

Do you think Shanghainese are more of Wu origin or Yue origin?

Wu.

Your example doesn't mean it is "dying". I see this situation as analogous to Switzerland, almost every formal news show; TV show; and book is in High German. Go to the streets of German speaking Cantons and you won't here high German unless it is a Swiss person talking to a Austrian or German. They speak various dialects of Swiss German, in fact there is no written standard for Swiss German and they only speak and learn High German in school, that has not even come close to "killing Swiss German". No real Swiss-man will speak High German to another Swiss German speaker as they feel they can't express themselves in High German and it sounds "stuck up".

We need more evidence than what Lu Xin thought or the government controlled censors for Cartoons.

Most kids in Shanghai under school age can not speak Mandarin, at least they could not 10 years ago. I commonly had children running up to me trying to talk to me, as they never saw anyone who looked like me, and not one of them was speaking Mandarin and most of them could not understand me speaking to them in Mandarin...usually their parents would translate.

Also as stated above there is TV and radio in Shanghai Dialect in Shanghai.