In each dynasty period, the non-chinese or foreigners used different terms to describe "chinese".

The different terms for chinese (used by foreigners) are listed as follow (do correct me if I'm wrong):


Pre-Xia and Xia dynasty
- Hua Xia 华夏 (Hua Xia People) or Xia 夏 People

Shang dynasty
- Shang Ren 商人 (Shang People)

Zhou dynasty
- Zhou Ren 周人 (Zhou People)

Spring/Autumn and Warring States Period
- Zhong Yuan Ren 中原人 (Central Plain People) or Hua Xia 华夏 (Hua Xia People)

Qin dynasty
- Qin Ren 秦人 (Qin People)

Han dynasty
- Han Ren 汉人 (Han People)

Age of fragmentation
- Chinese were called "Hua 华" (" Hua" literally means "Civilized/Beautiful"). There were many other ethnic nomads in northern China such as Xianbei, Xiong Nu...who were later "de-barbarianized (华化)" or sinfiicized. The term used for describing "foreigners" was "Yi 夷" (literally means "barbarian", which carries some form of despise of chinese towards northern nomads who invaded and resided in northern China)

Sui Dynasty
- Sui Ren 隋人

Tang Dynasty
- Tang Ren 唐人

5 dynasty period
- Han Ren 汉人 (han ethnic)

Song Period
- Han Ren 汉人 for Song dynasty, Khitan for Liao dynasty, Jurchen for Jin dynasty, Tangut for Western Xia dynasty

Yuan Period
The mongols who conquered China generally refer to Chinese as "Zhong Yuan Ren 中原人" (central plain people).

But the citizen of Mongol Yuan followed an ethnic classification dividing the citizens of Yuan into 4 groups:

a. Mongols

b."Se Mu Ren 色目人" (literally "Colored Eyes People" refers to people living in Xinjiang and Chinese Muslim region)

c. "Han Ren 汉人" (han people) refers to Khitan/Jurchen who formerly lived in Jin dynasty

d. "Nan Ren 南人" (literally "southern people" - former Han-chinese living in Southern Song dynasty)

Ming Period
- Han Ren 汉人 (han people)

Qing Period
- Manchu, Han Ren 汉人 (han ethnic), Tibetan etc..becomes more 'multi-ethnic'. Towards end of Qing period, the term 'Zhong Guo Ren 中国人" (chinese) began to be more popular as there was a need to define the country as "China"

ROC and PRC
- chinese (Zhong Guo Ren 中国人) refers more to nationality of China. "han ethnic" continues to be used to refer to the 'han ethnicity" in China. Outside China, 'chinese' generally refers to a race/ethnic that has its origin from China. Chinese today comprises of greater scope covering han-ethnic, manchu, hui, Miao etc..
- Overseas chinese tends to refer themselves as "Hua Ren 华人", but foreigners will simply called them chinese.



You got it all wrong and confused. The exact mixing/migration was more complicated than what you think. The pseudo-phrase "mainstream chinese were in fact the southern barbarians" was a non-valid statement used by some history-revisionist nationalist, esp. Vietnamese/Korean nationalist to try and distort chinese history. It was clearly wrong.

The chinese term 漢族 (han ethnic) used for referring to Proto-chinese during 3 huang 5 Di period was NOT CORRECT, since the term "han 漢族" was not even invented during that time. The term "Han 漢/汉" became a term for chinese ethnic only after Han Dynasty was founded in 202 BC.

The 3 huang 5 di was a legendary period in chinese history (currently existing as chinese mythology) as so-called "ancestors" of the chinese. There are currently no archaeological proof of that period. Only this mythological period was recorded in Shiji (Records of Grand historians) as the "proto-ancestry history" of the chinese.

There was no concrete concept of "ethnicity" or 'concept as that time, since only tribal groups existed.

How the ancestors of the chinese was at first called "Hua Xia 华夏 " ethnic is as follow:

According to chinese legend, "Huang Di 黄帝" (yellow emperor) was a leader belonging to tribal clan called "Xia clan 夏" (residing in the region of Hexi Corridor and Yellow River Plateau). Together with another tribal clan called "Hua clan 华" led by "Yan Di 炎帝" (residing in the region of Southern River Hua and Han River), they defeated "Chi You 蚩尤" (supposedly the leader of a clan sub-descended from by the previous Sheng Nong clan) around 2700 BC. The two clans "Xia Clan" and "hua Clan" gradually combined and merged to form the "Hua Xia Clan" that later became the "Hua Xia Ethnic 华夏". The Hua Xia people controlled over much of central plain China. As for Chi You, one faction migrated towards the north and was possibly mixed/related with XiongNu. The other faction migrated southwards and was possible mixed/related to Miao (Hmong)[thus some scholars pointed the possible relation of Miao/Hmong to Chi You].

Throughout Xia, Shang and Zhou dynasty, the Hua Xia people gradually merged and expanded to include many other many ethnic minorities in China such as Tibetan-Burmese ethnic, Tuhuoluo people 土火罗人, Dong Yi 东夷, Tungusic tribes, Xi Rong 西戎, Sumerians (yes, some migrants there), Zhu Rong Clan 祝融氏, descendents of Chi You, some of Xiong Nu, some of Xian Bei etc. It became a generic term to refer to Central Plain people (a large group of people residing in Central China before Han dynasty).

By Western han dynasty (202 BC), the term "Han 漢/汉" was invented, which later became a new term of a 'new ethnic group' built on the basis of Hua Xia. The Han ethnicity of Han dynasty was a mix between Hua Xia ethnic and Dong Yi ethnic as well as Chu Ethnic (楚族 -referring to people residing in Chu kingdom during warring states period), as well as containing some mix of Qiang 羌 blood .

According to what I remember of Yun's comment, Chinese was called "Han 漢" by Xianbeis (the title of the topic is not about how Chinese called themselves or the "non-Chinese").
That made me not sure if there's anything like "隋人"...

I think the terms like e.g. "Shin", "Cina" were already known to foreigners.
From India we even loaned back 支那，震旦...

I think Han-ren would include the remnants of some Northern Song people as well..

Well to non-chinese especially arabs, persians, turks , mongols and europeans , chinese were known as
Seres, Qins, Tabgamj or tabagach and finally kitais.

Uyghurs and mongolians still refer to Han chinese as Xitays or Kitays while the manchus used to call han chinese as Nikan
while the tibetans call han chinese as gya-mi.

To Vietnamese, Koreans and Japanese chinese were always known as 'middle kingdom people'.

Han Ren are used too in Tang Dynasty by those Cantonese TVB Serias.

Oversea Chinese like to refer themself as Tang Ren .

To Mongol and Manchu ,Han Chinese too know as Middle Kingdom People


Russia too refer Han Chinese as Kitan

Hardliner Muslim in south east asian sometime refer Chinese as Yahudi or Jews in 1960an.

For Vietnamese, historical accounts refered to Chinese by dynastic reigns, Qin, Han, Ming, Qing etc. In modern time, there's formal designations and informal. The formal form is "Hoa", short of Trung Hoa [Chung wa]. There seems to be movement to change to Trung vice Hoa of late. The informal designation is Ta`u (boat or boat people). This form of address took hold after the Qing took over China, remnants of Chinese loyalists would sail the sea and take refuge in Vietnam by boats. Some Chinese arriving in Vietnam during the French colonial era also arrived by boats. This phenomenon is similar to the Vietnamese "boat people" after the fall of Saigon. I've seen somewhere in this forum that the term Ta`u is meant as disparaging, which I must disagree. I've met countless folks as well as my own extended family referring to themselves and other Chinese as Ta`u. There are other less common names to refer to Chinese in Vietnam, Kha'ch [guest], or "chie^.c", a transliteration of Chinese [cantonese] for "uncle"... I don't know how this term came about. I met this Chinese/Vietnamese lady who sells trinkets in a Paris subway some years back, she referred to herself as "nguoi ca'c chu'', which means "the UNCLE people" in Vietnamese. I thought that was odd to have encountered that personally.

Also, Chinese medicine is called Northern medicine.

During the Blue Turk (Göktürk, Kök Türük, Tūjué 突厥) period, the Turkic peoples called China "Tabġač" (Tabghach), the name of the Tuòbá 拓跋 people ruling Northern China at that time. The Qarakhanids kept using that name too (there were some rulers who had the title "Tavġač Khâqân" [Ruler of China]).

The Arabs called and still call China Sîn ﺼﻴﻦ. The Persians prefer Čîn (Chîn) ﭽﻴﻦ from which the Turkish name Çin (Chin) comes from.

The Romans (DaQin) called us Seres (because of the silk imports). If I remember correctly, conservatives in Rome complained about silk imports (because they were semi-transparent) because it made their women more... revealing hehe.

Overseas Chinese still prefer to call themselves Tang Ren. It's reflected in the way Cantonese call themselves Tong Yaan instead of Wah Yaan (Hua Ren) or Hon Yaan (Han Ren). The Hokkiens, too, call themselves "Tung Sua Nang" which means Tang Shan Ren, or people from Tang Mountain (China).

The Tang dynasty still figures very strongly in southern Chinese history and mindset.

I am Tang Ren XD Taishanese and Cantonese call themselves Tang Ren (Taishanese Cantonese: Hong Ngin and Standard Cantonese: Tong Yan) because we are the descendants of the Chinese from the Central Plains..before the Mongols invaded the North and inter-mixed with the local population and at the same time changed Middle Chinese into what we know now as Mandarin.

deleted

Hmmm...I fail to see any correlation myself.

i meant overseas cantonese but also chinese on the mainland as well XD Out of curiosity.. the cantonese on the mainland, do they now call themselves Hon Yan more often than Tong Yan nowadays because of the strong influence of Mandarin throughout China??

Hi,

I noticed this by visiting the various "Chinatowns" in the USA and listening to how the locals referred to themselves. Actually, does it matter when one is referred to as a "Han" or "Tong" or "Hua"? Do they mean exactly the same, or should they mean the same?

The question is...why do overseas Chinese feel the need to associate themselves with one of these past dynasties? Or maybe overseas Chinese were themselves a diverse group of people that emphasized their history with different eras/areas of the Chinese past?

I'm interested in the migratory patterns of overseas Chinese the last couple of centuries, from which regions to which regions primarily. Maybe they might explain differences in the way they've been viewing themselves.

Any comment would be helpful.

Thanks!

Hi Willa

Thanks for dropping by.

Well first, I'd have to know what kind of "locals" you are referring to. If they are Chinese-Americans who have been in America since the 19th century, than it's more likely than not that they would have come from the Toisan region of Guangdong. I have never heard a Cantonese refer to himself as Hon Yaan (Han Ren) or Wah Yaan (Hua Ren).

As a 3rd-generation Singaporean-born Chinese, I can only speak for myself when I say that I have always used the term Tong Yaan over Hon Yaan or Wah Yaan when refering to Chinese. For the differences in the terms Hua, Tang and Han, perhaps you should refer to the first post in this thread.



Because it remains in the memory of the people, and oral tradition is often more indicative of social and cultural norms than official records would be.



One of the largest immigration of Han people from the north to the south occurred during the Tang dynasty, which is why we southerners still refer to China as Tong San (Tang mountain) and Chinese people as Tong Yaan.