I am currently writing an historical fiction novel set in 11th and 12th century Jerusalem and China. I don't want to go into great detail (for personal reasons), but the story revolves around one of the Jews of the Kaifeng Jewish community that joins the army of Song Dynasty General Yue Fei.

Most people are surprised to learn that Jews actually lived in ancient China. Jews have traded in China since the Tang Dynasty (618-907 CE), but many scholars believe a community was first founded in Kaifeng City, Henan province during the early part of the Northern Song Dynasty (960-1127). However, one of the three stelae (rock edicts) created during the Ming and Qing Dynasties claim they had lived in China since the Han Dynasty (206 BCE – 220 CE). You can read more about the Jews of China here and here. Please keep in mind, the linked articles are not very good, but they serve their purpose of detailing these Jews.

One scholarly source claims that "Israelites" served in the armies under General Yue Fei. You can read a short section on Chinese Jew military service here. I wrote the entry based on info from several books on the subject. Just to let you guys know, I actually came up with the idea of the Jew fighting in Yue's army well before I found out about its true historical origins. Needless to say, I was very happy!

The only mixed inhabitants of China that even come close to the Jews are the Hui-muslims. During the Song, the two groups were often confused for each other. Now the Hui are known for the martial prowess. They have sword styles like the "prophet's sword" and boxing arts like the "Eight elbow style". Since the Hui developed their own arts, I'm sure the Jews would have developed some of their own. But the point of this thread is not to actually prove the existence of such arts. I am just interested in what you guys think this hypothetical "Jew-fu" (no offense to anyone) might look like.

I have always read tales about powerful Buddhist, Taoist, and Muslim martial arts masters. I think it's time we brought another of China's minorities into the spotlight! This genre is completely new territory.

I have one idea for a style based upon animals mentioned in Jewish passages. The sage Yehudah ben Teima made a statement which was cited in the "Ethics of the Fathers."



When I first read this, I thought that statement could also apply to the martial arts. There is no need to decipher any kind of secret code. The style would be based upon the movements of the leopard, eagle, deer, and lion and the statement itself would apply to the overall fighting philosophy of the art.

I am not Jewish, so I would like if others more knowledgeable on Jewish passages could comment with their own ideas. And please refrain from racial slurs.

This should prove to be an interesting thread. I wonder if there are any Jews who frequent Stormfront; let alone practice a distinct martial arts.

Eric (En Rui)

Sounds like a pretty neat idea for a novel.

A lot of those passages were allegory, meaning it's not necessary to take the literal meaning of it but to dig deep, like reading between the lines to see it's entire meaning.

Like that famous psalm...136 I think or maybe its another one, where it starts with the Lord is my shepherd...
the part where it saids "your rod and staff they comfort me" has a really deep meaning to it, and it's quite long so here is part of an article to describe it.

http://www.aish.com/spirituality/growth/Th...My_Shepherd.asp
http://www.aish.com/torahportion/betweenTh...ve_and_Pain.asp

Furthermore, King David writes in Psalms, "Your staff and Your rod have comforted me" (Psalms 23:4). It seems strange that he would use this imagery to depict comfort, since staffs and rods are instruments of pain. If King David wanted to use soothing symbolism, why didn't he write something like, "Pillows and cushions have comforted me"?

The Chafetz Chaim cites the Talmud (Brachot 5a), in which Rava explains that God smites His desired ones with pains and difficulties, as the verse says, "The one whom God desires is smitten with illness" (Isaiah 53:10). We also find a support to this idea in the verses, "God chastises the one He loves, like a parent who desires the child" (Proverbs 3:12) and "Fortunate is the one whom God afflicts with pains and suffering" (Psalms 94:10).


What's a shepherd without his rod? His staff is there to protect the sheep, not to attack them. When our lives are harsh and force us into confronting realities that we would rather not face, we sometimes confuse the staff with the shepherd. The one fact that must never be forgotten is that we are beloved.

This world is not a place of ease; it is a place of challenge. Our humanity is not challenged by comfort. The "rod of the shepherd" takes us to situations that give us the ability to discover what we are really made of. This is not only true in life-threatening situations, but even in the difficulties that are closer to a pebble in your shoe than like a sword at your throat.


On a seperate note, the Israelis developed some type of martial arts called Krav maga, but that's like something to be used for close combat with firearms, I don't know if it will be useful for your novel. perhaps...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_maga

I think it's a good idea.

For hand to hand combats, you can use the Greek hand to hand combat style (I think it started with P) as the base and mix in with Hindu's yoga. I don't think Chinese Taiji Chuan was invented at that time, and I can't think of any Chinese hand to hand combat style at that time.

For the weapons, you can use the shephards' weapons for base, such as: staff (or rod) and sling (like king David). Added to it, the middle eastern style of curved swords or Roman style of short swords. Or you can use the type of gladiator weapons seen in Rome because they might have some Roman influences in the past. You can also arrange some of them to learn the traditional Chinese sword fight style (I read that the traditional sword fight style in ancient time was mostly lost during the chaos after Tang dynasty, and totally lost after the Song dynasty. Some part of it got to Japan with the Chinese refugees.)

If they went into Yue Fei's army, they should also know archery and horse back riding. You may want to think of something about why they had chances to get to horses because horses were expensive in Song dynasty and common people would not have the chance to learn horse back riding.

You also need to research the Chinese Jews' customs at the time. I heard that Chinese Jews at that time did not have certain festivals like the Jews in middle east today because they left Jerusalem ealier than the times when those festivals were established. I don't quite remember what they are, but I think you can find them on line somewhere.

Good luck!

Thank you all for the comments and suggestions.

Mm, may be best to leave the novel writing to Mr. Exorcist.



I have never heard this before; and in my opinion, it would seem like swordplay would flourish in a time like this, and I find it a bit hard to believe. Can you provide a source?

If I were writing a book, I would like others to give me suggestions as well as what pitfalls to avoid. I have read enough wrongly informed Chinese novels written by westerners as well as Chinese, and I don' want to see one more. I don't mind alternative histories. In fact, I love them. However, I can't stand illogical ones based on wrong historical information -- Not that my information are correct, but that is what CHF and other similar forums are for.




Actually, the first time the lost happened during the 3 kingdom period. Then, the other period I talked about. During those times, people not just died of war. Many also died of starvations and illness. On top of it, many Chinese masters of any kind of skills would teach only their sons or daughters-in-law but not outsiders or even their own daughters. Therefore, if the family had no sons or daughters-in-law, the skill would be lost. During those times, China had experienced great lost in population. It was said in the historical records that one of ten people survived those times. In many places, the whole villages or towns died out. Therefore, the swordplay skill as well as other important Chinese inventions and crafts were lost during those times.

The sources were spread out in readers' comment in the Chinese ebook site I frequented. I like to read alternative history stories, and there were a group of readers of those stories who happened to be either graduate students or scholars who are interested in the subjects and who liked to provide some historical backgrounds on those stories. Sometimes, they went into great and heated debates just like in CHF.

Recently, I came across this claim from several people there. The claim was that the original Chinese sword style had 20 (I think) positions. Then, because of the chaos of the 3 kingdoms, 8 positions were lost. Because of the five Hu disturbance in China (after Jing dynasty), another few positions were lost. By the time in Ming dynasty, there were only 2 positions were left, and they were recorded in a historical document in Ming dynasty. I think one of the guys also quoted a few other historical documents along the way as well as the names of the styles that were left and the styles that were lost during each time period. I haven't checked them out in details because (1) I have trouble getting to those original sources in U.S. (2) the claims seemed to be based on some recent archaeological or other scholarly findings, and I definitely have no access to them. So I have to base on my previous knowledge and readings about gong fu and Chinese history and customs of the old time. These claims sounded reasonable and logical to me. I plan to do more research in the future. If the other CHF members have access to recent mainland Chinese research materials in this area, maybe they could also check them out.

I will try to find the original postings of those claims and post the exact information here in the future. They were very interesting reading materials.

Yeah. Sorry if I sound overly confrontational and skeptical; it's just that I've never heard this before from sites on swordplay and the idea seems a little strange. A very qualified source would be perfect.

I agree. I am currently digging through those comments so I could find the actual books talking about those styles. However, I can't remember which one of the 30+ ebooks I am tracking and each ebooks had thousands of comments, so it will take some time.

Although the main character learns some form of martial arts, it is only a very small portion of the actual storyline. I started this thread just to see what kind of styles people could come up with.

As the book is a historical-fiction, I have consulted many scholarly texts to make sure that the world that the main character lives in is true to history. The plot also includes events from the First Crusade (1095-1099). Don't worry, my story has no Crusaders in China. The main character has connections to the 1099 siege of Jerusalem.

Can't wait for the story to come out! You must announce it here, so I can get a copy.

I like the idea of a staff style known as the “rod of the Shepard” because I have heard tales about Chinese spear masters who retired and later used staves because of their lesser killing capacity. The staff was also a weapon used by prison and caravan guards. But this is just a neat idea and probably won't make it into the novel since the main character is an archer.

In the Song Dynasty, healthy men were regularly conscripted as headmen of villages, police deputies (essentially bowmen), and military soldiers. If a man held a certain rank, they could hire a proxy to serve in their stead. The main character volunteers as a proxy to be a deputy bowman years before the Jurchens take Kaifeng and force the Song Dynasty south. Deputies where required to carry a sword as a secondary weapon, so he will know how to handle a blade. But his knowledge of the sword never progresses to a great level.

Yue Fei’s family hired Zhou Tong to continue the 13 year old’s military training in archery after he had quickly mastered the spear under a previous master. A section of Yue Fei’s family memoir reveals that Zhou had other archery pupils besides Yue:



The main character comes to learn Zhou’s brand of archery from one of these students sometime after Yue's political execution and his term of military service expires. He essentially becomes a knight-errant after this time and has many adventures into his elderly age. This bit may sound cliche, but I imagine the peace brought by the tainted Jin/Song treaty of 1141 would make any former soldier (especially those who served under Yue Fei) a tad bit angry. Their situation is comparable to the Samurai of Japan's Edo period. After the wars had died down, the relative peace left the Samurai with no outlet for their military skills. So some become ronin and traveled the land honing their skills (turning inward). Miyamoto Musashi comes to mind. Others became outlaws (raging outward). Think Yakuza.



I won’t publish for several years. But I will definitely announce it’s publication.

Chinese swordmanship has never been lost! Most people have not been able to understand why they practice with the sword! It seems that very few people can reach the level high enough to understand what are behind these sword movements. Many people including famous stars and Wushu athletes don't know how to correctly hold a sword!

I am a swordsman, and I practice Taiji sword that orginated from the Taoist system that has over two thousand years history. Same as Taiji Quan, every little bit of the sword routine is high level Qigong, and every little bit can be applied for real battle. From the movements, I rediscovered how the ancient battles with the swords were fought. In the Taoist system, high level Qigong, healing, blessing, and exorcism were further developed through the practice of the sword.

Well, I have an idea that could be useful to your novel.

Most of the Jews at that time in China would have come from Bagdad, Persia and throughout Central Asia. So the Middle Eastern and Nomadic lifestyles would have influence them in a way,
If that were a case, then they should be quite handy with a sword and possibly the bow and arrow (hmm...sounds good?)

Also, they wouldn't appear to be that different from other Silk Road traders or the Hui in Chinese eyes, maybe some detailed differences in the dress, other than that behavior wouldn't be too different ,so maybe you can study a bit about the Hui and make some comparisons.

Some of the few ways to distinguish them would have been probably their skull caps (but sometimes the Muslims would wear one that looks alike) and the sidelocks of Jewish men that they weren't supposed to cut.
The biggest cultural traits many observers made of that part of the world were Bravery, Hospitality, Freedom of movement and a big Artistic endeavor.

Jerusalem at that time would have been under the insane turmoil from the Crusades, and China would have been busy fighting off the Jurchen and still thriving and innovating at the same time, so I don't really know how a story between those two places can correlate.
They would have fought for different reasons, under different circumstances and different enemies. But since it's a historical "fiction" I guess anythings goes.



These are some suggestions for your story.

Thank you for the suggestions. The Jews of China wore a blue turban that distinguished them from the Hui who wore white. From what I read, the Jews did not like the Hui. A study of the stone steles left by the Jews reveals what their life and religion was like. If they had indeed lived in China since the Han Dynasty (like the steles state), the Jews would have worn the same clothing as the Chinese. I will send you a private message to explain the connection between the main character and the 1099 siege of Jerusalem.

From what I read, the style of the swordmanship is not like the current style. I also know a little about swordmanship and know taiji as well as what you are talking about. My father learned martial art (neigong, qinggong, chuan, and weapons) from a late Qing dynasty master, so I was very interested in martial art and read a lot of interviews and accounts of the late Qing dynasty and early Republic period masters in the area. Swords and spears are my special interests. I wouldn't question the history of the swordmanship you have learned because you or I really couldn't proove or disproove it.

The swordmanship these people talked about seemed to be a form used in military and probably trained by general Shi 士 in ancient time, not Daoist priests. Since I only read about it in recent months, I still need to find out more about it. The people who claimed it said some of the styles went with the Chinese refugees to Japan around 3 kingdoms period and after Tang dynasty, and they might have influenced the Japanese style of swordmanship. Again, I read about it, and thse people were supposed to be grad students or scholars in China and they sited a few historical documents. As I said before, I am still in the process of checking it out.

Thanks for that very informative private message, although we could share it with others, I'll keep it private unless you want to make it public.

The history behind the "german" Jews, which I am assuming they are the Askenazi is quite complex, if your character is from Jerusalem, it wouldn't quite make sense if he was a "german" Jew.
The character would have maintain more of his Middle Eastern traits, including some of the clothing and attitude.
Unless he was visiting from the Rhineland, that would have been a different matter like for the sake of pilgramage, but there was too much turmoil for their lives at that time.

The ones in Jerusalem would have live quite differently than the ones in the Rhineland.
The Jews at that time would have been quite religious, but since their religion is also their culture and philosophy, there would have been a lot of dilemna in whether they should fight, die together or move to another place, the ones in the Rhineland would do their best to stay together as possible, or else their identity would be lost, and the Jerusalem community probably were a bit more freer in terms of travel and celebrating their uniqueness.
and both the Jews and Muslims at that time fought side by side against the Crusaders, for various reasons, like they face more brutality from the Christians, couldn't accept Christian theology and it's desire to convert others, etc. The weren't that friendly with another, but he situation with the Muslims were a tad bit better than with the Christians.


Although anything can happen, and so far the story sounds good, it would have to be very complex, not just in the journey but the emotions, drama, religious thinking, etc. for it to be as "historically accurate" as possible.

I would like it if you kept that message to yourself at the moment, but if anyone is interested, I will just send them a copy. As I stated, there were a community of the the Askenazi in Jerusalem at the time of the Crusades. During the early part of the 11th century, Jews were driven out of France and Germany. Here is a brief time line:

October 18, 1009 – "Mad" Fatimid caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah destroys the Church of the Holy Sepulcher (place of Jesus’ crucifixion) of Jerusalem by hacking out the Church's foundations down to bedrock.

1010 - 1012 – News of the Sepulcher’s destruction reaches Europe and outraged Christians attack Jewish communities, as the Jews are looked upon as the “Killers of Christ.”

- In Rouen, Orléans and Limoges, France, Mainz, Germany and Rome, Italy, Jews are converted by force, massacred, or expelled

1012 – Emperor Henry II of Germany (972 - 1024) expels all Jews from Mainz who won’t convert to Christianity.

Here is a map that shows some Jewish migration for that time:



This map doesn't show it, but some Jews returned to Jerusalem. I don't know if an Ashkenazi community existed prior to this. The noted 16th century Rabbi I mentioned stated that a German gentile surnamed "Dolberger" visited Jerusalem on a holy pilgrimage. During his time, his life was saved by a Palestinian that spoke German. When the Crusaders came to the holy city, one of Dolberger's family members among the knights rescued many Jews throughout Palestine and brought them back to Worms, Germany to repay the favor. Further evidence of German communities in the holy city comes in the form of halakic (Jewish religious law) questions sent from Germany to Jerusalem during the second half of the eleventh century. The above material is not in the novel, it's just an explanation of how and why the Ashkanzi came to live in Jerusalem.

Another thing to think about is that Europeans were living in Asia decades before Marco Polo's travels. The Chronicle of William of Rubruck mentions that a Parisian goldsmith named William Buchier lived in the Mongolian kingdom of Korakorum in 1254. This little bit of info was told to me by a noted Jewish historian from Hebrew University in Jerusalem. He also told me that the German-Jews would have retained the same "Mediterranean look" of their Israeli ancestors. So it is not like the main character is a white guy with blond hair and blue eyes.

I have also read how the Jews and Muslims fought side-by-side. As I mentioned, the main character's father died in the defense of the city. He was a soldier in the Egyptian garrisons protecting the city. One scholar believes the reason the city of Ashkelon learned of the ransoming of the captive Jews was either because a Jewish soldier or civilian among the Governor's retinue told them about it upon their arrival in the Jewish haven.

It has taken me nearly 9 years of research to peace the story together in such a way that it is both exciting and historically accurate. His journey from Jerusalem to China is touched upon, but it is his life in China that is the main focus of the story. I need not remind others reading this thread that all story details are copyrighted material.

There is a esoteric book with magical spells in it called the "Sword of Moses". That sounds like a good name for a sword style. I actually have a copy of this book. It is very small and a tad bit confusing since it is chocked full of phrases with wider meanings.

The book "Chinese Jews" by Bishop William Charles White details the lives of several Chinese-Jew soldiers. One of these soldiers served in a special imperial guard and even averted civil war by warning the Ming Emperor about a plot against him by the soldier's commander, the Emperor's relative. The Emperor was so happy with this Jew that he promoted him several ranks and even gave him a new surname.

I'm sure these Jews would have definitely learned weapons and probably even some general hand-to-hand in the army. Since the Hui-Muslims created their own styles based on Chinese martial arts, I'm sure the Jews would have done the same. All we have to do is pick a number of Chinese arts and add something Jewish to them.

The main character learns military Shuai Jiao while in Yue Fei’s army and continues to utilize the style throughout his civilian life. I imagine that the Kaifeng Jews could call on wrestling styles to mimic the way that Jacob wrestled with the angel (Genesis 32:24 & Hosea 12:4). Jews have a dietary law that prohibits them from eating the sciatic nerve of any animal because of this. So a Kosher-butcher removes it prior to consumption. In fact, one of the names given to the Chinese Jews was tiao jin jiao (挑筋教), “The religion that removes the sinews”.

Jews have historically created their own forms of wrestling. During the 14th or 15th century, a Jew named Ott became the wrestling master of the princes of Austria. Ott’s style was later assimilated into the German school of swordsmanship.

Wrestling was also a very popular sport in the Song dynasty. The classical Chinese novel, All Men are Brothers, talked about it a lot. One of the heroes, Yang Qing, was a wrestling champion.

Wrestling was popular on the Lei tai stage during this time as well.

Yes, I read that they spent a lot of time wrestle with their opponents on the Lei tai (stage). I guess it was like a sport event. I wonder whether there were people betting on the results like today?

In one of the movies I saw, the hero was wrestling on the Lei tai stage, and the nearby prostitutes were sitting on the balcony of their brothels watching the event. I wonder whether it was really like that in the Song dynasty.

This article says that during the "Northern Song (A.D. 960-1127), the use of gambling as a promotional activities became popular." I've read that lei tai fights during the Song were "exhibition" matches. I have no boubt that people bet on lei tai matches since they regularly bet on rooster and cricket fighting. What's better, humans or animals/bugs? Depending on how you look at it, exhibition matches could be likened to professional wrestling and actual duels to boxing matches.

I don't know if it is true or not, but there was supposed to be a lei tai stage in the Song's eastern capital, Kaifeng (the main character's home town). I've read how fighters in later dynasties set up their own lei tai in various spots to accept challenges. If I wanted to score with the ladies, I would definitely set up shop next to a brothel.

"Be as bold as a leopard, light as an eagle, swift as a deer, and strong as a lion, to do the will of our Heavenly Father. (5:23)"

This sounds like a possible reference to Pak Mei "White Eyebrow" style.

The passage is from a Jewish holy book. It is in no way connected with Chinese White Eyebrow Style.

Brian E. McKnight's Law and Order in Sung China says the following about the training of police bowmen...


During their 3 or 7 year contract, they usually lived in barracks that were attached to the houses of the sheriff they were assigned to. One of these barracks had ...


So, any Jew who served as a police bowmen would learn the basics of these weapons and might even learn boxing and Taoist breathing that they could include in their own distinctly Jewish martial art style.

Sounds like it would be a good read.

The Jews might not have fled from the Crusades but could have come earlier as the Romans destroy Jerusalem and drove everyone into exile about 70 AD. About this time, Thomas reputedly introduced Christianity to India and later the Nestorian introduced it to the steppes. So Jewish exiles could have wandered as far as China. Early interactions of the Jews and Muslims were very bloody, resulting in more Jewish relocation. So you could even postulate long standing communities.

The Book of Macabbees, in the Orthodox and Roman Catholic OT, is about the rebellions and has a lot of mentions to battles. I believe it is set around 175 BC. It mentions swords, calvary, spears, bow and arrows, and the usual weapons of the day. A couple of mentions to wrestling I think, which appears often in the OT. So wrestling and the normal sword-spear-bow/arrow, sling, and like might be a good base. The Jews interacted a lot with the Greeks and many became Roman citizens so you could claim some ties to prankration, but to be honest it appears to have been a mix of wrestling and boxing combined with very limited (aka almost no) rules. After the Eastern Empire when Christian and ended up fighting against the Moslem expansion, it was less good to be Jewish and running east might make sense. The Moslem killed many in the early wave of conquest and the Crusades didn't help any... So Jewish traders running easy would probably be exposed to all the weapons of the day as part of survival.

As to the staff and rod quote, I think we have a generational problem. A staff or rod is a comfort when in high country walking or herding sheep. Not just as a weapon but also as something to lean on. As I age, I find it more so. However even the people playing savate in France and the Basque lans used a herder's staff as a weapon. So I bet that is a general human response to having a big stick...

There was a steppes tribe east of the Black Sea that converted to the Jewish faith about 800-900 AD I think. It's supposedly where red haired jews come from. They relocated to Spain under the Moors when their homeland got invaded by I forget whom. I think that's roughly your time frame...you might be able to use that. Especially as I believe they were horsemen.

I have only read one book that postulates that the Jews fled from the Crusaders to live in China. This tale comes from Prof. Xu Xin's book Legends of the Chinese Jews of Kaifeng. Apparently modern-day descendants of the Kaifeng Jews believe that they fled from Turkey to escape the Crusaders and traveled the Silk Road into China. I had already created the storyline of the main character fleeing the Crusaders well before I read this book. I just mixed my love of Crusader and Chinese histories together.


I've been told by Benjamin Z. Kedar, a leading Jewish history scholar, that "there were cases of Europeans (mainly pagan slaves, I believe) who converted to Judaism." So, there are a myriad of possibilities. But I am just going to stick with the theory given in the book Kaifeng Stone Inscriptions. It states the Jews entered China in the 2nd century BCE (after living in India and Persia before that) and intermarried with the Chinese. During the anti-Buddhist persecution in the Tang Dynasty, they were expelled to the outer regions of China under control of northern tribes, but were later welcomed back into China proper during the Song.

technogypsy, could you post or pm me your source for the steppes tribe converting to Jewish faith? My husband's mother's family were Jews from Spain, and they had red hair in their family. It would be interesting to let his family know this story. Thanks!

ghostexorcist, I like the history of your Chinese Jew. They sounded it would be a very exciting read.

A readable source would be the book "Empire of the Steppes" by Rene Grousset (I have the Walford translation). Pages 180-181. The Khazars. They were overrun by other steppes tribes, the Russians, and the Byzantines. Their last city fell in 1016.
Grouset cites some primary sources. There is a website on this: http://www.khazaria.com/

Their relocation to Spain under the Moors is from a different source. One reference I could find quickly was Jacob S. Raisin "Gentile Reactions to Jewish Ideals" page 691.. I'll email you if I do. Since the Moorish Conquest was in the 760s and the Reconquesta (sp?) didn't end until 1260s (Dates approximate from memory), it fits time-wise.

As the Khazar were a warrior tribe and wrestling was a common sport there, may our author's Jewish martial art should be similar to some of the Uighur wrestling styles or even the Moslem form of xingyi

I already have the protagonist's martial arts worked out, this thread is just hypothetical for arts the Jewish community might have created or practiced as a whole. I too have read about the Uighur's love of wrestling. They are no doubt good since they do it for the shear joy of it. I have read Song Dynasty material pertaining to archery that is transferable to wrestling.


No wrestler can be as good as someone who is born into a culture where wrestling is a way of life.

Thank you, technogypsy. Also, thank you, ghostexorcist. I learned a lot in this thread. I have never seen or heard of many of these information. I think when a person wants to sit down and write a book, there are really a lot of detailed information involved. Since ghostexorcist started asking questions in CHF, all of us benefited from his research!

Khazars weren't jew but converted to judaism for a while for political reasons.

teh Martial art style is calle khures and is basicly wrestling

I think the point that technogypsy was trying to make was that they were Jewish during the time period my novel is set.

However, if you go by Tiberiu Weiszs' theory about the Jews arriving during the early Han Dynasty, Jews could not create such a style because the Mishnah was not published until the 2nd century CE.

Apparently a Rabbi noticed the similarities between this phrase and animal-based Chinese martial arts styles. See here:

http://www.koshertorah.com/PDF/Leopard-Eag...er&Lion.pdf


Prof. Shahar has shown in his new book The Shaolin Monastery (2008) that “internal” martial arts did not come about until the late Ming Dynasty, which is, of course, centuries after my tale takes place. Taoist gymnastics (stretching and breathing exercises) and religious rituals were combined with medical knowledge and boxing styles to create a new form of self-cultivation.

However, although I want my novel to be as historically correct as possible, I want to give it a "military romance" flavor that is present in Ming Dynasty novels (see the engaging "Military Romance" chapter in C.T. Hsia on Chinese Literature for more details on the genre). These tales mention characters having great martial prowess, but they don't name specific styles. Most of the time, the protagonists train under gods or immortals prior to their great adventures. But this is not applicable for my novel as my character is Jewish. The "celestial tutelage" scenario kind of goes against the "though shall not worship any other god than me" commandment.

aside from sifu harvy ( chaim ) sober that practices chinese martial arts along with man ymany other jews that do one form of martial art or another, ther is also a person in Israel that practices an art called ABIR which he claims comes from the ancient Israelites, though I believe he got most of his trianing in kuk sool won, a korean style. He is form a yeminite lineage, and though I dont know what he teach's exactly and his claims may be suspect, I thought that Id throw that tidbit in for you. As far as what or if the jews of kaifeng did practice any of the indiginous arts that were being taought in china at that time, id love to find out myself, its a point of history for me too as a jewish martial artist that practices chen style tai ji, also 5 character 8 methods shaolin as well as an okinawan type of karate called goju ryu, the style of the real mr miyagi.

let me know when your book is compleated id love to read it.

I have heard of Yehoshua Sofer before. I agree that his style stems from kuk sool won. However, that does not take away from his apparent skill. I've seen videos of him in action and it seems like he could really put a hurting on someone.

Thanks for your interest in my book.