The examples most people show of Ming weapons are the best ones in the museums, often related to a particular emperor. However, during the turbulent period around the end of the Ming (1644), many peasant weapons were also created. They show classical Ming forms, but in a much cruder style. These styles remained popular in village made weapons long after the Ming styles disappeared from the Manchu lead military.

Here is a village made jian from the end of the Ming as dated by its patina. The style is reminiscent of more opulent Ming weapons but done in a very utilitarian manner.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/pekh...381E5899100.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/pekh...381E5899102.jpg

Notice the upward sweeping guard and the large pommel. These are among characteristics often associated with Ming style.
Josh

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/pekh...5BFE5899100.jpg


http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/pekh...5BFE5899103.jpg


http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/pekh...5BFE5899104.jpg


This is another Ming style jian. It is a shuang shou jian 71 cm blade 98 cm overall. Th style is clearly Ming, but the patina indicates late 18th or early 19th c. The pommel is identical in style to those seen with Ming tomb figures, but perhaps a little smaller than the true Ming examples. Ming shuang shou jian are also reputed to have even longer blades.
Josh

Dear Josh,

I am glad to greet you here again!

Look here - it is a late Ming/early Qing duanjian. But I saw the same design which was obviously of XVIII-XIX century.

Yes, nice to chat with you again. These village made pieces can be very difficult to date. I chatted with Scott Rodell about the shuang shou jian I posted and he thinks it is likely a late 19th c. piece despite the Ming style. Without a close look at the tang of the one you posted it is difficult to tell the age, but it certainly has the Ming style as you say. For me, I tend to think the ones like that with smaller pommels are on the Qing side of the divide. In general, I have noticed, there is a tendency for pieces to have more angular fittings in the Qing and smaller pommels. There is also a general trend for blades to be flatter if they are later. Ming pieces and early Qing will often have a central rib, and/or a fairly thick cross section for piercing armour. The one you posted looks thick in that manner but it is difficult to tell. Like the fittings, this is only a hint at somethings age. Other things I look for are a slight narrowing of the blade right by the guard. This seems more common on the earlier pieces.

I am slowly learning how to date things by their tang, but I am not convinced yet that this is a uniform process. It seems a bit of an art form with a few reliable relative signs of aging and many matters of judgement.
Josh

The section is a lense-like. No pronounced central rib is seen. Blade is 6,5 mm. thick at the forte and 5 mm. at the tip.

Later jian may be that thick at the forte, but usually not that thick at the tip. What you show is a jian that sacrificed speed in blocking and slicing for stopping power in the chop and penetrating power in the tip. These are attributes more suited to battlefield techniques than what one would want in a dueling sword. Later jian were usually not battlefield weapons, but there were many exceptions. That is why these are often so difficult to date. Jian were phased out of battlefield use at the end of the Ming, and yet there they were in the villages, battlefield jian being made centuries after they were supposed to be.
Josh

What I think it is a battle sample. I can show the second one with the initial stage of the first one.

I recognize those two from Peter They are exactly the kind of late Ming early Qing village made pieces that I am talking about. Notice that on the lower one the forte is slightly narrower than the blade. This appears to be a common characteristic of these early pieces. Also there is more decoration than is usually found on later pieces, and the fittings are quite rounded with no angular cuts.

I hope to post some pictures at some point of a subtype of these early jian that I have been studying. There is a common village made variant that is a jian shaped dao with a clipped tip. In particular the tip is slightly hooked, and there is often a slight bulge at the back edge right before the tip. The overall effect is one of a hooked nose Yazi, but I have seen no information on this. These clipped tip zhibeidao seem to be only found in outlying areas, and they appear to be a reprise of earlier styles. They are partly reminiscent of straight backed Tang style dao, and also of hooked tip Song style shoudao. I do not think they are minority weapons per se, but they appear to be found in border regions where there may be a strong minority influence. Specifically, Tibetan sabers and Yi choppers appear to be surviving examples of the earlier styles that these jian shaped dao seem to be influenced by.

Yi chopper:

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/pekh...aduation366.jpg

Josh

Of course, both are from Peter I bought both and now I am intending to wrap secon hilt in red cord. Wooden grip seems to be alien for such weapon. Regarding strange village forms - you may see them here (artefacts from Khabarovsk Museum on loan from Haerbing Museum):