Movies would have us think that Chinese soldiers of all eras could jump and twirl around like Bejing Opera acrobats, but obviously this is fantasy.

I'm curious about the types of combat techniques that were taught to fighting men of China throughout history. What was the average soldier trained in? I'm guessing there was a mix of weapons and hand-to-hand training. Are any of these fighting techniques still being practiced?

Movies would have us think that Chinese soldiers of all eras could jump and twirl around like Bejing Opera acrobats, but obviously this is fantasy.

Thanks Wu Fei, everyone else. Excuse my ignorance. I don't really know much about martial arts and I wasn't aware that some of the forms that exist today are derived directly from old combat techniques. I assumed they were all derived from monks. Now I know better!

(I know this post is old)

I would presume how soldiers fought back then would not resemble many of the kung fu styles we see today. I think many of the flowery techniques of kung fu (and kung fu forms) were created during more peaceful times. I doubt any soldier would care much about forms or flashy techniques if his life was in danger. My take is most of his techniques would not look pretty and would resemble something like kick boxing with throws and wrestling techniques.

Movies would have us think that Chinese soldiers of all eras could jump and twirl around like Bejing Opera acrobats, but obviously this is fantasy.

I'm curious about the types of combat techniques that were taught to fighting men of China throughout history. What was the average soldier trained in? I'm guessing there was a mix of weapons and hand-to-hand training. Are any of these fighting techniques still being practiced?

kung fu (and kung fu forms) were created during more peaceful times

(I know this post is old)

I would presume how soldiers fought back then would not resemble many of the kung fu styles we see today. I think many of the flowery techniques of kung fu (and kung fu forms) were created during more peaceful times. I doubt any soldier would care much about forms or flashy techniques if his life was in danger. My take is most of his techniques would not look pretty and would resemble something like kick boxing with throws and wrestling techniques.

...It is actually the opposite, combat kung fu were created because of the necessity at a time when there was clear danger. What was created during peace time were entertainment or sport martial arts. During peace time kung fu fighting just like the warriors there existance become useless.

Another thing is that even in ancient battlefields personal combat skills took a backseat as compared to training,discipline and tactics.

... However, during wartime, martial styles would obviously shift toward efficiency.

I'm curious about the types of combat techniques that were taught to fighting men of China throughout history. What was the average soldier trained in? I'm guessing there was a mix of weapons and hand-to-hand training. Are any of these fighting techniques still being practiced?

I guess this depends upon which period of history you're talking about. Although the Song Dynasty had nearly a million men under arms, the overall training was probably pretty poor.

A saying that dates back to this time period says, "Just as you would not use good iron to make a nail, you do not use a good man to make a soldier."

During the time of the Ming Dynasty, there are reports of troops whose only training consisted of standing in formation to shout fierce war cries.

If the troops are not professional soldiers, then their training would be poor. Few medieval conscript armies are fearsome fighting machines whose qualities could match the Roman in fighting ability, discipline, cohesion and training. Conscript armies generally have to depend on their massive numbers. Or on their missile troops, since their regular infantry might not have what it takes to close the gap for close contact fighting.

I am probably joining this debate a little late but I have some insight into the issue of the Chinese army question, I have studied this subject intensively and even though I am Egyptian I am just as interested in Chinese history as my own history. The fact is chinese people have always had wars over land the wall of China is a great representation of this. The art of war became a great, beautifull but yet brutal part of the culture. I am currently studying with Sefu Sun Da Fa; he is a master of many martial arts and was the tainer for chinese republican army special groups. The art that i manly concentrate on is on of the big three internal system (Xing Yi Ch'üan or Xin yi Ch'üan or Hsing I Ch'üan dpending on which part of history it was written and which forms are practiced) the other two are Bagua or Pacua and Taiji or Tai chi. There is evidance that this form of fighting (Xing Yi) was entrenched through chinese millitary history from the Qin dynasty 221 BCE but this is not supported with strong evidence. But there is week evidance to prove the forming of this powerfull art of the Five Elements and the Twelve Animals in the 10th centrury by the Song Dynasty General Yue Fie, but this can not be supported since it was common practice in China to attribute new works to old heros just because they attributed to some of the arts properties. Ji Longfe was the man that standardised this art in his book in the 16th century late Ming era. This internal cross external system incoprates the use of weapons and free hand in melee attack manuvars that are direct and divastating to the enemy, it is in a way similar to that of the Spartan attack formation where the soldiers walk like one complete unit. This style conditions the core and the rest of the body to also move as complete explosive unit, and rather than using the opponent force alone the warrior prefects the delivery of strikes using his own body weight and energy to cruch the opponent.

David

If you study Huo Yuan Jia's martial arts history, in the traditional Chinese Martial Arts, you will see that it mentions Martial arts going back before Christ. Not to mention Qigong which is said to be 5000 years old, which many martial arts stemed off.

There is no doubt that there is evidence even in records that mention martial arts like the biographies San Guo Zhi, eg. Cao Ren for example.

The origins of Chinese martial arts are traced over 6,000 years ago to self-defense needs, hunting activities and military training in ancient China. Hand to hand combat and weapons practice were important components in the training of Chinese soldiers.[1][2][3] From this beginning, Chinese martial arts proceeded to incorporate different philosophies and ideas into its practice—expanding its purpose from self-defense to health maintenance and finally as method of self cultivation. In return, influence of martial arts ideals can be found in poetry, fiction, and film. Chinese martial arts are now an integral element of Chinese culture.

According to legend, the reign of the Yellow Emperor (Huangdi, traditional date of ascension to the throne, 2698 BCE) introduced the earliest forms of martial arts to China.[4] The Yellow Emperor is described as a famous general who, before becoming China’s leader, wrote lengthy treatises on medicine, astrology and the martial arts. He allegedly developed the practice of jiao di or horn-butting and utilized it in war.[5]

Shǒubó (手搏) kung fu, practiced during the Shang dynasty (1766–1066 BCE), and Xiang Bo (similar to Sanda) from the 600s BCE,[6] are just two examples of ancient Chinese kung fu. In 509 BCE, Confucius suggested to Duke Ding of Lu that people practice the literary arts as well as the martial arts[6] thus, kung fu was practiced external to the military and religious sects by ordinary citizens; (pre-dating Shaolin by over 1,000 years). A combat wrestling system called juélì or jiǎolì (角力) is mentioned in the Classic of Rites (1st c. BCE).[7] This combat system included techniques such as strikes, throws, joint manipulation, and pressure point attacks. Jiao li became a sport during the Qin Dynasty (221–207 BCE). The Han History Bibliographies record that, by the Former Han (206 BCE – 8 CE), there was a distinction between no-holds-barred weaponless fighting, which it calls shǒubó (手搏), for which "how-to" manuals had already been written, and sportive wrestling, then known as juélì or jiǎolì (角力). Wrestling is also documented in the Shǐ Jì, Records of the Grand Historian, written by Sima Qian (ca. 100 BCE).[8]

A hand-to-hand combat theory, including the integration of notions of "hard" and "soft" techniques, is expounded in the story of the Maiden of Yue in the Spring and Autumn Annals of Wu and Yue (5th c. BCE).[9]

In the Tang Dynasty, descriptions of sword dances were immortalized in poems by Li Bai. In the Song and Yuan dynasties, xiangpu (the earliest form of sumo) contests were sponsored by the imperial courts. The modern concepts of wushu were fully developed by the Ming and Qing dynasties.[10]

Martial arts are also mentioned in Chinese philosophy. Passages in the Zhuangzi (庄子), a Daoist text, pertain to the psychology and practice of martial arts. Zhuangzi, its eponymous author, is believed to have lived in the 4th century BCE. The Tao Te Ching, often credited to Lao Zi, is another Daoist text that contains principles applicable to martial arts. According to one of the classic texts of Confucianism, Zhou Li (周禮/周礼), Archery and charioteering were part of the "six arts" (traditional Chinese: 六藝; simplified Chinese: 六艺; pinyin: liu yi, including rites, music, calligraphy and mathematics) of the Zhou Dynasty (1122–256 BCE). The Art of War ( 孫子兵法), written during the 6th century BCE by Sun Tzu ( 孫子), deals directly with military warfare but contains ideas that are used in the Chinese martial arts. Those examples shows the ideas associated with Chinese martial arts changed with the evolving Chinese society and over time acquired a philosophical basis.

Taoist practitioners have been practicing Tao Yin, physical exercises similar to Qigong that was one of the progenitors to Tai Chi Chuan, at least as early as 500 BCE.[11] In 39–92 CE, "Six Chapters of Hand Fighting", were included in the Han Shu (history of the Former Han Dynasty) written by Pan Ku. Also, the noted physician, Hua Tuo, composed the "Five Animals Play"—tiger, deer, monkey, bear, and bird, around 220 BCE.[12] Taoist philosophy and their approach to health and exercise might have influenced to certain extent the Chinese martial arts.

With regards to the Shaolin style of martial arts, the oldest evidence of Shaolin participation in combat is a style from 728 CE that attests to two occasions: a defense of the Shaolin Monastery from bandits around 610 CE, and their subsequent role in the defeat of Wang Shichong at the Battle of Hulao in 621 CE From the 8th to the 15th centuries, there are no extant documents that provide evidence of Shaolin participation in combat. However, between the 16th and 17th centuries there are at least forty extant sources which provided evidence that, not only did monks of Shaolin practice martial arts, but martial practice had become such an integral element of Shaolin monastic life that the monks felt the need to justify it by creating new Buddhist lore.[13] References of martial arts practice in Shaolin appear in various literary genres of the late Ming: the epitaphs of Shaolin warrior monks, martial-arts manuals, military encyclopedias, historical writings, travelogues, fiction, and even poetry. However these sources do not point out to any specific style originated in Shaolin.[14] These sources, in contrast to those from the Tang period, refer to Shaolin methods of armed combat. This include the forte of Shaolin monks and for which they had become famous — the staff (Gun, pronounced as juen).The Ming General Qi Jiguang included description of Shaolin Quan fa (Pinyin quánfǎ or Wade-Giles ch'üan2 fa3, 拳法 "fist principles") and staff techniques in his book, Ji Xiao Xin Shu (紀效新書) that title can be translated as "New Book Recording Effective Techniques". When this book spread to East Asia, it had a great influence on the development of martial arts in regions such as Okinawa and Korea.[citation needed]

The fighting styles that are practiced today were developed over the centuries, after having incorporated forms that came into existence later. Some of these include Bagua, Drunken Boxing, Eagle Claw, Five Animals, Hsing I, Hung Gar, Lau Gar, Monkey, Tiger, Bak Mei Pai, Praying Mantis, Fujian White Crane, Wing Chun and Tai Chi Chuan.

But there is week evidence to prove the forming of this powerful art of the Five Elements and the Twelve Animals in the 10th centrury by the Song Dynasty General Yue Fie, but this can not be supported since it was common practice in China to attribute new works to old heros just because they attributed to some of the arts properties.

No, not really, since the definition of proffesional means that they're on a payroll and employed as soliders on a permenant basis. the best "trained" soliders of the medieval worlds were fedual knights and their retinues. those were hardly "professional" by definition. The Spartans weren't "professionals" one could debate that the Roman legion wasnt "Professional" or the Tang army.

The Song army however, was professional. those guys were hired and isn't going back to no farmlands (leagally anyway) that didn't stop them from sucking, though that was more by design of the government and horrible leadership combined with the lack of cavalry more than the abilities of the soliders themself.

rollingwave wrote:
No, not really, since the definition of proffesional means that they're on a payroll and employed as soliders on a permenant basis. the best "trained" soliders of the medieval worlds were fedual knights and their retinues. those were hardly "professional" by definition.