HELLO FELLOWS!

Although Chinese History is embellished full with amazing achievements just like the Ancient Egypts, I still have a feeling that this particular area of study have not been researched seriously by most of Western schollars. So far, according to my knowledge, most of valuable journals, researches are still done only in China. Without translation to English at least, it seems that we (European schollars and dilletantes) feel quite dissapointed. I would like to hear your opinions about this problem, is this true that Chinese History is still not considered carefully and exhaustively by Western schollars.

There are far more European and American (as well as Australian and Canadian) scholars studying Chinese history today than 50 years ago, and the accuracy of the research has also improved significantly. The great barrier remains language, but pricing and marketing have an important impact too. Until the ancient histories are translated into English and other European languages, and unless good English-language books by professional scholars of Chinese history are published at much more affordable prices and are made available outside university libraries, non-Sinophone historians and history enthusiasts will continue to either ignore Chinese history or rely on the relatively small volume of secondary sources aimed at a general readership.

In the meantime, it would help to have some credible writers who are able to bridge the gap between academia and the bestseller list when it comes to books on ancient Chinese history, the way Jonathan Spence often does for Qing and 20th-century China. It is dismaying to see how non-specialists hungry for reading matter on the early imperial period are forced to whet their appetites on poorly-researched potboilers by Jonathan Clements and Nigel Cawthorne, on the grossly incompetent Chronicle of the Chinese Emperors by Ann Paludan, and on certain Ming-period historical novels.

Up to now, there is still no official English translation of the 24 (or 26 in fact) histories (official historiography of China), largely because of the language barrier and the lengthy time taken to translate these large volume. I don't know why western scholars did not translate these volumes into English.

There is already a modern chinese translation of 24 histories, which make it easier to read for common chinese who are weaker in classical chinese. But the lack of English translation for the 24 histories will make it more difficult for the west to study chinese history in greater depth.

Compared to China's studies of the west, I believe there are alot more English/European classics or academic works that had been translated into chinese.

However, don't forget China has the world's most voluminous records of the country's own history. That means to translate all these history works into English would take a very long time.

Also

All my Chinese History professor are all white. Their knowledge wasn't what amazed me; they speak Chinese better then I do!

I feel that this is due to the historical sites all being in China. Of course, if one wants to research on something, he or she would definitely want to get as close to the source as possible. The historical sites are all in China and it would take time and great effort for the Western scholars and historians to travel from their countries to China, in order to find more evidence and information. Talking about valuable journals, of course they originate from China. It's the same point. The history books of America originate from America. The history books of Singapore originate from Singapore. This goes for all the countries.

I don't think China is disregarded by the Europeans. Of course, who wants to travel out of home soil to research about another country while you can actually switch fields and research about your own country? Honestly, there is nothing to be disappointed. Some translations that I have read are actually quite good (but I would still prefer the Chinese version, of course) and no, some Europeans are interested in China History too. I'm sure we have some cool Europeans members here, is it not?

But, trust me, usually for books in China History written by Europeans, they usually get the sources from some other books or historical sites or evidence, and then they rewrite and add their own points too. And some books are also expressed very well. Honestly, this is from the bottom of my heart. One more reason why the Europeans scholars don't translate everything is because China really have a super long history, and it would take a lot of time and effort to do so. Plus, most of the records are in classical chinese and not baihua, so that makes the task more challenging!

Liu Bang

I read that before. Not really a very good reference, honestly, if you ask me.

There are vast swaths of primary documents and archaeological info from all countries that are little explored and largely untouched by modern scholars, but the situation of documenting and analyzing all of this stuff improves drastically with each passing decade. That's why I can't wait to be a full-fledged professor one day, with tons of potential primary source material at my fingertips. For what's already been published, the quality of Western sources depend on the team of researchers and authors; some are good, and some are bad! Everyone tends to idolize Needham as the 'Godfather' of sinology yet often neglect to mention Timothy Brook, Morris Rossabi, Nancy Steinhardt, Patricia Ebrey, and Edward H. Schafer.

Eric (En Rui)

From personal experience trying to translate some passages, I believe the Chinese in the past themselves relied heavily on commentaries made by various scholars when studying the 24 Histories, as the original texts in classical Chinese usually gave rather terse descriptions.

This in turn slows down the translation work into non-Chinese languages a lot, since the commentaries have to be checked out as well as the original texts.

Another challenge is the reconciliation of the dates and years mentioned in individual historical volumes.

Such a project require major commitment from any institution, not to mention generous sponsorships.

At the moment, I think the critical mass of demand for English translation of the 24 histories has not been reached for any party to feel the investment is justified.

In all fairness, simply translating the classical texts, or even simplified texts, into English, will not a good product make.

It has to be said that there is some work done. eg Burton Watsons books and Richard Davis' Historical Records of the Five Dynasties. But as the Western scholars all read Chinese there is less incentive to translate.

i think because some of important chinese history sources written in ancient chinese script. something like seal script 篆文 , right? this will make even hard for historian to do their job. also i wonder in what style and form it was written. i mean if like poetry form it will require the translator to know like chinese phrases,idiom to get through it. also what about document written in other language like mongol or jurchen or manchurian.

i wonder, are most of chinese research today come from 1st hand resources or 2nd hand resources (translated) ?

I think the main problem is the funding since the workload will be enormous if all historical documents in China are being translated into other languages authentically. There are only two possible major investors I can see: one is China, another is United States. In either case, it will be an international project. I don't know whether US has foreseen this possibilty to shift the centre of Chinese history study to its homeland. It will take massive tax payer's money but the impact to history will also be shocking then.

I totally agree with your statements. I think people need to translate the commentaries first before translating the actual texts though.

China still has strong advantages in terms of archival materials, archaeological sites, language ability, and the simple fact that its people have more reason to study their own country's history and it will therefore always produce more specialists in Chinese history than any other country (for a parallel example, how many non-Americans do you find studying US history?).

But the relative weakness of the Chinese academic system/environment compared to the US one is also a major factor in the current situation. Historians trained in China tend to be strong in knowledge of the sources, but weak in analytical depth and originality, more willing to reaffirm and build on the work of past authorities than to question and challenge it. They are also much less willing to take a sceptical or critical eye to the ancient textual sources, and more prone to assume that "if it was written into an official dynastic history, then it must be true". Add to that the fact that Chinese academia is only just emerging from the ideological straitjacket imposed by Marxist ideology, while still clinging to certain positions that are essentially based on a subjective nationalistic agenda (as seen, for example, in the current enthusiasm for 'proving' through archaeology that Fuxi, Shennong, Huangdi, and the other sage-kings were all real historical figures). That is one reason why the truly cutting-edge and groundbreaking research on Chinese history is mostly being produced by historians trained in the US, and not in China, despite the much smaller total volume of research produced by the US-trained historians.

Chinese historians are also usually unable to communicate effectively (whether in spoken or written form) in other languages, and those few who are able to are likely to do their PhDs in the US (or Britain or Canada) and not return, simply because academics in China are so miserably paid and many would much prefer to migrate and teach in a foreign university if they had the chance. The sad truth is that a PhD in history from a Chinese university is still mostly a ticket to a life of relative poverty, with little room for career advancement, and with no employability as an academic outside China. It is little wonder that the top Chinese universities still have so much less prestige than their US and British counterparts in the historical field (as well as many other fields), and so few American or European students choose to study history or literature in Chinese universities except on short research trips.

When I told people in Singapore that I was going to study Chinese history in the USA, their first reaction was almost always: "Why don't you go to China for that?" Then I would tell them that in an ideal world that might be the best option, but in the world of today, a PhD from a Chinese university is worth next to nothing outside China, even if it is in Chinese history, and even the best young Chinese graduate students in history are actually leaving China after their Masters to pursue a PhD in Chinese history in the USA, Canada, or Britain. I know some who are even doing their PhD in Chinese history in Singapore, because a Singapore PhD is worth more in China than an average Chinese PhD.

So while it may be true that the PRC is still the centre for the study of Chinese history in terms of quantity (with Taiwan probably in second place but nowhere close), the US is already the centre in terms of the quality of research produced. And that disparity between quantity and quality may actually be part of the problem too.

This reminds me of some common mistakes of Chinese History shown in western documentaries....

Even for reputated broadcasters like National Geographic,Discovery channel and BBC....

I am always amazed to see their misinterpretation of some facts ......

Yeah, what's with that? You should certainly add History Channel to that list. They can be so accurate when they want to be, but it's painful to hear the narrator say something incredibly ignorant and stupid.

Honestly, as Yun explained, Chinese history can be studied at a very high level, in the west, and from western publications. If you have a good university library, just look at the academic journals, published in Europe or America, and you'll probably notice that the level is very high. It is, however, a very specialised field, as chinese (or asian, or in fact non national) history is not taught in middle school or college, and not even to students majoring in history. Chinese history, in the west, is a branch of sinology, which is taught to students who major in chinese language.

This has two consequences.

First, the general public is not very aware of chinese history, and, whereas you can easily find decent basic histories and very good specialist work, the west lacks intermediary level works. This is certainly a problem for the 'serious amateur'.

Second, as those who specialise in chinese history are first taught in chinese, and especially in classical chinese (here in France, you start classical, ie excerpts of the Shiji, of the Lunyu, in your second year of chinese... ie very very early), there is little demand for translation of sources, like dynastic histories, and especially the many commentaries of classics. This, again, is typical of academia, everywhere I think. You can't really specialise in roman history (or even medieval history) if you don't know latin, you can't study greek history without being proficient in greek (actually, in some cases, you are supposed to be proficient, ie "be able to write an essay ..." in latin and/or greek to become a high school teacher of litterature...).

This focus on language, as an important aspect of foreign (or ancient) historical studies explains the lack of translations. As others have noted, it is a result, not a cause.

Back to Chinese history in the west, I would say that inaccessible is too big a word. It is quite possible to learn a lot without learning in China. At some point, some knowledge of classical chinese becomes a must, and I would suggest that this is best taught to westerners in the west (the process of learning classical is very different for a chinese, who already knows the modern, and for a westerner, who doesn't) but I think knowledge of modern chinese is relatively optional (up to a certain point...)

Francois

I agree with Francois.

I am fairly proficient in Classical Chinese, enough to write an essay in Classical Chinese (I did recently in the Chinese portion of CHF), and I have been reading Classical Chinese texts since I was 7 or 8 years old. However, even I have problems with some parts of the ancient Chinese text and definitely have problems to translating them into English (and I am also fairly good in English as well, being trained in a major U.S. University and live in U.S. for the last 29 years as well as having to write and edit and fight pen wars in English for the last 24 years professionally with other IT professionals and Management in Fortune 500 companies!) Some of my efforts in translating some of the Classical Chinese texts are in CHF's Chinese Literature subforum as well as in CHF's Projects subforum for translating Zhangguo Ce. There are also discussions and questions posted in those threads. Those were just 1/1000,000,000,000,000 of the effort we would need to translate completely one of the 24 Shi (formal dynasty records) and all of its commentaries!!! In addition, I think I am probably missing a few more 0's there!!!

Well come on !!!! whats keeping you ? ? ? I slaver at the thought of all the info that is still unavailable to me....

It is also very painful to me that I have to go to a U.S. University to study Chinese history!!! Especially, I kept on hearing the very wrong terms or informations from Professors and Instructors who should have known better!!! (I am talking about the Chinese historical details that even a young Chinese girl would have known -- at least, my friends and I did when we were about 10 years old!!!) I have actually dropped a few Chinese History classes because my Western instructor(s) from some very (extremely famous) Universities in U.S., like UC Berkeley or Harvard, had told us certain really wrong facts in Chinese history while trying to support his claims about certain Chinese Historical theories -- I am NOT talking about anything relating to politics, and I am talking about little facts like a person is the Emperor's wife and NOT his concubine!!! These instructors have Master degree or PhD's in Chinese History and were teaching in UC Irvine and Cal State Long Beach and other nearby colleges!!! I generally could tolerate my professors' dragging the Chinese history and Chinese Philosophies into comparisons to the Western Greek and Roman philosophies and histories, like one of my professors in UCI who came from Harvard Universities, as long as they did good jobs about them (and NOT make mistakes on facts). However, I would walk out of any class where the instructor or professor made more than 3 major factual mistakes in Chinese historical. That is why I am seriously considering to take my graduate school studies in areas other than Chinese history so that I won't decide to do serious bodily harm to my Chinese history professors who have done serious bodily harm to Chinese historical facts!!!

I was also tearing my hair out by the roots when I saw that they used Qing dynasty Emperors' paintings for the paintings of the Ming dynasty Emperors on programs in the History Channel!!! You probably know already that those Qing dynasty Emperors were blood enemies of those late Ming dynasty Emperors and had ordered their generals to kill some of the late Ming Emperors!!!

I am waiting for you to learn the Classical Chinese so that you could help me in translating some of these stuff!!!

And yet if you look at Greek or Roman history, Thucydides, Herodotus, Tacitus, Polybius, Ammianus Marcellinus, Procopius, and so on have long been available in full English translations done by credible scholars. And good, well-written and well-researched English-language books on Roman history (especially military history) are likely to sell well at the non-academic level too. But that is not true of translations or books on Roman history in China, because the interest and expertise is not there (there are some translations, but they are fairly old and inaccurate ones).

Likewise with the glut of popular-level books on ancient Chinese history in China, as well as translations of selected passages from the histories, e.g. Shiji or Zizhi Tongjian, compared to their near-invisibility in Europe or America. There is a lack of both market and manpower, and yet some really interesting books and translations could actually generate a market and attract manpower (in the form of graduate students who take up Chinese history) in the long run, if someone qualified were willing to make the commitment and take the risk. Unfortunately, the writers making attempts right now are mostly unqualified opportunists who have no desire to let the facts get in the way of a good story.

I am guessing these were undergrad-level general history courses, such as "Chinese history up to 1300" or "Chinese history from AD 1000 to AD 2000". Many fresh graduates from PhD programs, when holding their first teaching job, tend to struggle with teaching such courses, because their PhD research has been so narrow and specialized in comparison that they are quite out of touch with Chinese history outside their chosen topic and period. And yet these are the kinds of history courses required in colleges that are predominantly undergraduate.

But it might be the case that the professors you heard at Irvine or Cal State were quite experienced, and not fresh PhD graduates. In which case they could just be lazy with preparing for lectures.

I have seen the same problems. That is why I want to be that bridge for the popular and the scholarly. I have been collecting information and training myself to be able to do so. Joining CHF is actually my last stage of training toward my goals in this area. I am trying to write historical facts better and more interesting than something coming out of a computer technical manual!!! I think I am almost there. My next step is looking for a literary agent in the West and one in Taiwan to advise me in publishing my books in both Chinese and English.

Actually, I probably have less of a problem in Taiwan because most of my father's, mother's, and brother's friends are in either Chinese scholarly or publishing businesses. I could also walk into a few of the major Taiwan publishers' offices and pull some guanxi due to my uncle Miao, the Chinese Literature Professor in Taiwan Normal University and a Classical Chinese editor in several very prestigious Taiwan publishers (I am sort of trained informally by uncle Miao in my Chinese literature and classical Chinese).

In addition, I could probably try to find uncle Miao's son-in-law, a Chinese professor in University of Hawaii and whose daughter was my good friend in childhood, and he probably knows something of publishing in U.S. However, Hawaii is a bit far even though I am in California, and there is only half of the Pacific ocean between us!

Anyway, I think I am going to hang around the Humanity Department in UC Irvine and see if I could get some connections somehow over there. They do have a fairly good (I heard) Chinese History department over there, and they do have a very good English Writing Department for sure -- The English Department had given me enough trouble when I was there as an undergraduate student. Because of my bad experiences at that time and my even worse grades for my College English writing, I actually went back to a local Junior College to re-take all my college level English writings a few years ago just to make sure my English writings would be OK at the college level when I apply for my graduate school in History. Well, I would have to say that my English writing abilities have definitely improved since my UCI days in the early 1980's!!! My English Instructor gave me A's for all my essays and used them as examples in classes -- I guess I am pretty much there with my English writings (when I remember to check my English grammars and spellings)!!!

I have been preparing for this day since I was about 7 or 8 years old. I hope I could really do it before I die.

The reason for this is simple : greek and roman history, and language, are in the curriculum of western middle and high school. I was trained in maths, yet studied latin and greek. My grandfather, who was a car salesman, told me once that in middle school they were supposed to play a full tragedy, in ancient greek... As such, people were introduced to Tacitus, or Thucydides, by their latin and greek lessons. The same is true for china, where classical is taught as part of chinese language study, since middle school...

What I am trying to say is that latin and greek are (or maybe were) for many europeans, just like classical is (or was) for chinese, something you'd learn in school, and vaguely remember. This spurs a market for translations, which doesn't target specialists but amateurs. Such a demand doesn't exist for chinese history in the west, or roman history in china... for the same reasons.

Francois

Im working on it...but don't expect anything too soon.

But isn't that what makes it extremely entertaining?

My goodness, Fireball, they had a PhD and were slipping up that badly? I guess Yun's emphasis on their specialized and narrow focus is the only explanation for this. Although still in the embryonic phase, I'm building up my knowledge of Chinese history bit by bit and perusing through scholarly online journal articles (at JSTOR using my university login) and second source book material that I own. Narrowing one's focus to a specific area of Chinese history is the desired goal, but one must know the entire fabric and frame in order to thoughtfully narrow down one's field or topic of research in the first place.

Very good point. I would like to include that the culture and literature are equally important to learnto understand some of the underlying reasons why things were done.

If Empress Lu (呂后) was Liu Bang's (劉邦) concubine and NOT WIFE in any time of her and his life, then I am wrong and he is right! I would not walk out on some historical facts that I am unsure of, even I am only unsure a little bit! I hate to be wrongfully accused by others, so I try NOT to wrongfully accuse others.

When the instructor made a few (Oh, I guess, about a handful of very simple, but deadly) mistakes in his historical facts with the kinds of the attitudes that "I am right because I have a PhD, and you are wrong because you do not!" I decided that he is NOT a historian or even a good instructor.

It is one thing to make an honest mistake and change when one found out that he/she was wrong. It is entirely different when one stays with one's mistake when it is a very easily verifiable historical fact. I tried to let him know (with careful and respectful attitude) that he has his facts wrong. After 3 corrections, his attitudes were forced politeness. I decided to swallow his next 5 or 6 mistakes of the similar scales. When his conclusions of Chinese history got further and further away from what should be (I gave very wide allowances for others' historical interpretations, especially if the person is a professional historian) due to his very false historical facts, I decided to drop the class -- I can stand differences of opinions based on the correct historical facts, but I can't stand (and can't watch) someone uses his/her professional title of PhD/instructor/historian to distort and spread wrongful Chinese or non-Chinese historical facts whether he/she is/was purposefully doing so or just innocently unaware or refuse to be aware. My historian (without the official title, but ...) sensibility can not let me sit around to watch such things going on.

I might have stand and fight him (offending my history instructor in a college very close to my home and in a safe area and thus would cause me to have to go to another less convenient and unsafe location to complete my undergraduate history requirements) if I thought he was doing so on purpose -- I love history more than my official degree and would not let such person stay to teach the wrong information to others if I can help it!!! However, I believe he was just innocently bad about his facts -- probably trust too much of one or more of his professors' published work, and did not check their facts -- I have seen most of the Western Professors got at least one or two (most of time a lot more) Chinese historical facts wrong in their published research books, especially the professors in North America and West European countries. I actually found the Italian History Professors seem to have better grasp of Chinese historical facts among all of the Western European and North American History Professors -- It was not scientifically proven, but when I found 9 out of 10 history books from West Europe and North America had problems and 9 out of 10 history books from Italy didn't, I had to come to that conclusion – I did not read enough history books from East European and Russian authors, so I am not sure about their work, and I found the Indian and Middle Eastern (and Middle Asian) authors are generally very good in their understandings in China and Chinese history. My samples were from my own readings of historical research papers on professional magazines and journals in historical or related subjects as well as published research books from the past 30 years in U.S. I like to go to the book sales of UC Irvine's library as well as many public libraries in Southern California. One of my pastimes is to drive to used bookstores and libraries within 50 miles radius of my home to get interesting books in such sales -- $1 for one shopping bag of books!!! I do read things very fast (about 1 or 2 professional Chinese research books per day, and about 1 or 2 English professional research books, science or humanities subjects, per week or half week depending on whether the author writes clearly or love to use complicated and unclear sentences) so I am forever lacking things to read and trying to find more things to read. Sometimes, I read through a newly published research book in a subject of my interest within one afternoon.

Anyway, I decided to walk away from that class and from some of the other similar situations because I don't want to cause this guy or others like him to lose faith in his own abilities (I am hoping he will one day find and correct his mistakes, but I really doubt that) and I don't want to offend history professors whose letters of recommendation I really need for my transfer to a 4 year University and for my graduate school applications.

I did find an excellent professor, from another equally good and probably better school, in the same school to get my undergraduate history requirements in the area of European history. However, he specializes in European and America Continents' histories (he is a Hispanic)! For that reason, I am seriously considering doing my undergraduate requirements in the history of America Continents or Europe instead of Asia. I am quite OK for the American history professors to mangle the historical facts in their own heritages -- who am I to correct them since I am not European descent? I stopped taking history classes to regroup myself and to think about which direction I want to go into, European or American? To me, I prefer the European history because I really get bored with the U.S. and Canadian histories and I have great trouble in names in the central and South American nations, especially the ancient ones -- I found that problem out when I was taking the Intro to Anthropologies in UC Irvine!

I got into the same dilemma when I am planning my original history career in Taiwan. I actually decided to choose the Taiwan Normal University's history major as my number 1 choice and NOT the University of Taiwan even though I had a pretty good chance for the University of Taiwan. One of the reasons was due to my very strong feelings about certain current and past historical issues, and I had heard from my father's friends and our other family friends (Professors and students at both Universities) at the time that the University of Taiwan were full of professors who might have different opinions about certain things from my understandings (and might have the attitudes and other stuff influencing their methods of approach, and scholarly or factual considerations might get lost in all those noises). Anyway, I didn't think my historian sensibility would allow me to survive in THAT politically charged environment of University of Taiwan, so ... Taiwan Normal University's history department was my top choice -- solid professors, family friends could help me get more out of my University life in term of getting more detailed knowledge and instructions (like a apprentice to some good masters), free of tuition, free of living expenses, getting a government allowance, and having a guaranteed job after graduation, away from politics -- what more could I want!!! Anyway, I really regretted that I did not stay in Taiwan to try out the College Entrance Exam due to political reasons!!!

Btw, the bad history instructor was from UC Berkeley and an ABC from Hawaii. I think his family was probably in U.S. for a few generations because he is totally assimilated into the American society. He was an OK history instructor in all other aspects, but it was too bad that his attitude and his facts were so very wrong in his chosen profession!!! I half suspect that he thought too highly of his Berkeley degree and forgot that the University degrees would only make half of his reputation. After his PhD, he would need to prove to others all his life that he deserves that PhD from Berkeley!!! I grew up among Professors and in a very University kind of environment, and I know this circle -- The true scholars would always be truly respected, and the scholars who only depend on their own high and mightily University degrees and their own high and mighty positions without the proper backing of their own very real knowledge and capabilities would only get laughed at behind their backs by other professors (and/or students) of equal or higher caliber!!!

Many of my father's friends (my father included) who were University Professors would laugh at such people and such incidences when they came over to chat with my father and when my father chatted with me. They did these sorts of things both to show off their own knowledge as well as to caution each other (especially me or their other students) that false pride should really NOT be there in the arena of knowledge and in the attitudes of true scholars!!!

fireball, I am wondering if the instructor of whom you speak has the family name Guo?

I would also like to suggest that the really good and accurate books on Chinese history written by Western European or North American historians within the past 10 years tend to be really expensive (because they're published by such high-end publishers as Brill and SUNY), and therefore cannot be found in cheap book sales or public libraries. You should look for them in UC Irvine's library, or try borrowing them from Professors Pomeranz and Wasserstrom (if they're willing to part with such valuable books!).

Well, I have not read the whole thread yet, but I can say I agree with the OP in that Chinese history is still underrepresented in the US. I believe that this will change as China and the west become closer and more universities will add more to what they teach already, for there will be a demand. This is why I will be a prof at the college level, there will be a market for more teachers of Asian history and culture.

I think apart from Chinese History, Chinese Archaeology also seems to be a bit minor in academic discussions of many venerable archaeologists. The most popular place for Archaeology is Egypt, Western Europe, Middle East. Is this also true? Are there many special laboratories in China to carry out Archaeological Technology like dating?

I would also walk out on any Chinese Professor's history lectures if he/she has given the wrong history information -- ESPECIALLY IF HE/SHE WAS FROM BEIJING UNIVERSITY OR TAIWAN UNIVERSITY BECAUSE THEY SHOULD REALLY KNOW BETTER THAN THAT!!!

I have questioned my father and his friends on their statements if I think they were wrong. When my father told me that he held legal court in territories that were supposed occupied by Japanese soldiers at the time in WWII, I asked how it could be? Then, he told me that the Japanese soldiers only held the cities, but NOT the country sides. He was about 65 years old, and I was about 15 years old. I know he went through WWII in person, and I didn't, so I believe he was probably correct when he first made his statements. However, I did not take that at the face value just because all those reasons. It did not sound logical to me, so I questioned his statements. Then, he was able to explain to me why it was so. I would not have learned that additional information if I had not questioned his statements.

I have seen people unquestioned accepting information and opinions spoon fed to them by Professors, teachers, parents, religious leaders, or political leaders. Just because they seem to know more than you, it doesn't mean that they are always correct. People make mistakes and remember the wrong details and only see one part of the stories. When I was reading the autobiography of the linguist Zhao Yuan-ren, he would state certain incidents and his wife would correct him on the dates and times and people's names and even the incidents themselves. Mr. Zhao was a brilliant man and a world famous scholars as well as a Professor for many years. He also held several PhD's and NOT just one!!! However, he was human and could be wrong as well.

I have always held the belief that people should always question things that does not sound logical or does not sound right. Also, people should not just accept the first answer. I think we should always think about the answers and consider them carefully and see if they only partially answered the questions. Sometimes, the answers themselves were wrong as well. After my father had answered my questions, I went ahead to verify his answers through other sources and found that his answers were correct. This person is my own father, so I should trust his answers, shouldn't I? I believe that I shouldn't, especially if it has anything to do with the true knowledge or real facts. I have seen too many other people hide the real truth or real facts from their loved ones "for their own good"!!! I love and respect my father, but that fact should not matter in the face of my search for real truth or facts. Furthermore, "I" should not matter in such pursue either. I found and heard many stories that some older scholars and famous professors (all over the world) let their egos get in front of the act of seeking truth and caused frustrations and some very real troubles to younger scholars in many situations. That was also the reason I did not pursue a graduate degree the first thing after I got my Bachelor's degree. I sort of wanting to find out more before I jump into the very murky water of the "supposed pure but actually NOT really" professional life of scholars!!!



Yun, I have seen people come to hasty conclusions without reading the whole posts or finding out all the facts many times, including myself. I learned over the years to be more patient and more tolerant for such people, but thank you for coming to my defense.



I am not sure. It was a few years ago.



Although they were cheap, they were good quality books. The authors were all Professors from major (recognizable) universities all over the world (uh, from the western world). Basically, I would not get anything from people below the Professor level from major universities in these English books. For the Chinese books, I would get anything I could get in U.S., but if I am getting my history books in Taipei or China, I would also get books with authors who were at least with a Master degree or the books showing obvious (I mean extremely) good scholarly knowledge -- I could easily recognize those in Chinese books because I grew up with enough of those books.

Most of the psudo historical books I got were for fun reading and to stimulate my imaginations, but I wouldn't consider them as the valid historical books. Any new and wild historical claims have to have at least 3 or 4 other professors from major universities supporting them and no serious oppositions from other leading professors before I would even consider that the claims were probably valid. There would also be the test of time. I generally would not consider any new historical claims as solid until they were around for at least 15-20 years without serious oppositions from other professional scholars.

Many of the historical books I got were before 1980's. Some were even before 1950's or before WWII. Even the new books after 1980's had a lot of problems!!! Some of the problems had something to do with understanding Chinese characters or keeping the Chinese names straight without the actual traditional Chinese characters!!! The way I kept the names and events straight were to either know the exact names of the historical people involved or to know clearly the exact facts or events surrounding the persons. When these authors had to keep track of a lot of Chinese names in English, translated words with similar sounding names, they quickly lost tract of people and events!!! However, it was NOT that they could not keep it straight. Some of the Italian authors seemed to have done so, and their books were as thick and filled with research information as these other professors. The difference is that these Chinese history books written by the Italian Professors seemed to have a lot less errors and mistakes than the rest of the Western Professors. I have no idea why!

Now, regarding the Indians and the Middle Easterners and other Asians, I have met people who are NOT professional historians or scholars, but Engineers and Scientists, and they are more knowledgeable about very detailed Chinese history than I am in their national histories!!! I feel ashamed of the lacking of my own knowledge because of these people. Since these people DO NOT speak or read or write Chinese, I would have to think that they had many accesses to the very accurate Chinese history books in their own mother tongue in their own countries and probably written by their own scholars -- Yes, these people are ALL first generation immigrants and were educated in their own countries, especially in the areas of world history!!!

I have a lot of trouble finding good and detailed and professional information on Chinese archaeology in U.S. From time to time, I might find one or two articles or books about some new findings. However, I usually see a very brief article about a new finding without any details. For example, I have read about the tomb of the noble woman of the Shang dynasty for quite a few years. She was a royal consort to the king of Shang dynasty, a warrior and a military commander that had won battles against Shang's enemies, a lord of a fiefdom, and a priestess. However, only when I went back to mainland China about 2 years ago, I found some information about this noblewoman that she might have belonged to a special clan of women who held those positions from one generation to the next. Therefore, the archaeologists found a record that she was supposed to be the royal consort to a few of the previous kings of the Shang dynasty. Now, this particular claim was fairly recent. However, I doubt that I would even hear of it if I was in U.S.! Actually, before I left Taipei in the late 1970's, I knew the Western scholars did not think the Xia dynasty existed. Then, in 1990's, I found that there would be international conference (in U.S.) for the discussions of the possibilities of Xia dynasty's existence from an article in Taiwan. By mid 2000, I found in mainland China, some scholars not only thought Xia existed (maybe just as an era and NOT a dynasty), they also concluded which sites were the Xia era sites and which sites were the later Shang dynasty sites. Again, if I wasn't in mainland China, I wouldn't know for a long time in U.S.

And yes, China also has special laboratories that could carry out archaeological tests, experiments, and other functions, like dating!

I have a feeling that, may be given by Military History Only, that for some reasons Chinese artefacts did not come to close attention of archaeological people. I don't know why? Perhaps the barrier of language and politics always comes into view as the last factor. In my class, I am proud of being the only person who know a Dagger-Axe (Ge) image when my teacher showed one in World History Class in 9th grade.

This is partly true. The main reason is that most (if not all) digs are done by chinese teams who publish their results in Chinese, sometimes relatively late after the discovery. So a western archaeologist not specialised in China, and therefore not speaking chinese, would need to wait until recently published material is written about in a western journal.

Inside specialist (ie sinology) circles, there are good specialist of ancient chinese artefacts in the west. As a matter of fact, some of the best specialist of oracle bones and bronze inscriptions are in North American universities.

In recent years, there have been quite a few criticism from western academia to some archaeological research in China, which all revolved around the impression (deserved imho) that many chinese scholars tend to consider that archaeology is there to confirm the official records (whereas a typical western position would suppose the opposite). A typical case was the Three Dynasties (sandai) project, a big attempts to provide a definite ancient chronology, from the Xia to the Zhou.

But again, Chinese archaeology, like chinese history, is a very specialised subject in the west, which is generally not touched by "traditional" historians (language being the main barrier).

Francois

I bet it would take someone a lifetime to translate all the classical chinese texts into English...or maybe he or she might not even finish....

I agree with this. Almost all the work I have seen done is by the Chinese themselves. I think many people here in the west are still fearful of China, it's the only explaintion I have, even though they are willing to go to places like the Middle East (religiuos reason I would guess) so many are unwilling to travel to China. I do no understand this.

Actually, the fears are/were both ways. Due to the colonial robberies of the Westerners and a certain Asian nation in since the late 19th century, China and Chinese people no longer trust the non-Chinese to go near our cultural heritage at all!!! This view was told to me by a few mainland Chinese scholars and professors from Beijing and from several Southern Universities in Shanghai, Suzhou, Hangzhou, Guangdong, and Hong Kong. The general and current (for the last 30 years) attitudes and views among Chinese scholarly community and the government officials are that we rather kept our cultural artifacts buried in the ground until China has developed advanced technologies to be able to preserve the artifacts once they got digged out than to have Westerners or non-Chinese to come in and take control of any digs!!!

In addition, because of the unspoken views and attitudes of the Chinese scholarly community and the Chinese government and due to the very difficult process of dealing with the Chinese bureacrates anywhere (including in Taiwan and Hong Kong) plus the original Chinese language problems, most Western scholars have a lot of trouble to get to know more about the Chinese digs. When the archaeology sites involved pre-Qin items, it would be even worse. This is due to the fact that the language and sentence structures and the usage of the Chinese words before Qin dynasty or before the Spring and Autumn era were very, very different from the later Chinese in the Classical eras (or the so-call Classical Chinese). Sometimes, they seemed to be another language altogether IMO!!! Not only the non-Chinese scholars have problems with them, I have problems with them, and I have dealt with classical Chinese and some of these pre-Qin writings since my teenage years (more than 35+ years ago)!!! I am currently studying the language of the Oracle bones in preparation for my later studies in the pre-Qin era histories!!! It's going very slow because I don't have the necessary books to help me. I will be buying those books in Taipei this spring, and I will be visiting those professors in Taipei to ask for their advices in how to approach my studies in this area.

Many of the Chinese scholarly sites had no money and no experties to have the English version of publications or websites, so the spread of any such news or discoveries would be even slower. However, you really could not blame any one. Who would want to waste their lives in dusty old libraries or old tombs for very low salaries when they could get higher pay and easier jobs than being such scholars??? Even if the young people want to do it, their parents and friends would really laugh at them and call them stupid. I love the stuff and wouldn't have minded, but even I caved under the pressure of having to support my old parents in their old ages!!!

Once again economic problems have arised as the major barrier for this issue. Strangely, the tiny neighbour of China, Viet Nam, has its History Book in my country even more than China itself. Most of them are written in French, but I must say it is very delightful to read (I learning French).

About cooperation between American and Chinese projects, are there any?

The question is who would these be for?

Historians will want to see primary sources in the original state, not translated later 'standard' histories. Sinologists look at the originl textswharever possible (in the same way that histrians of the Late Bronze Age in the Middle East use the cuniform tablets, not translations of them, or those studying the Roman army in Britain will read the Vindolanda tablets in the original latin).

The primary use of translations is to bring the past to non specialists. People interested but without the language skills. Actually I do think that there is a market, Rihard Daviws' recent translation of Ouang Xui's Historical Records of the Five Dynasties sold well. As Prof Davis is a firm believer that there is a need for English translations of and has the necessary influence with those who posess the required skills in history, classical Chinese and English it may yet happen.

If Chinese becomes such a huge barrier for Westerners to learn seriously about Chinese History, Culture and Archaeology, then is this because the "arrogant" attitude of Western schollars (those in US or UK) and is this because Chinese schollars also feared that once they co-operate with Western Historians, they shall be called "Sinocentrists"? Raw materials have been extremely scarce (Shiji of Ssu Ma Chien, The Chronicle of The Tso) in Europe generates difficulties for Eastern schollars to study Chinese History. The only powerful language that could translate several collections from Shiji is Russian (in Eastern academia), with its complex grammar (Still not very satisfied since they have been commented by misleading claims of Marxism during Soviet Union times).

Perhaps one of you comes to Eastern Europe may feel extremely offended since there are many "doctor, PHD" in Warsaw university who claims like: "Chinese History is not very resplendent since there have not been much found of Gold like those in Ancient Egypt" (They don't even know Shang culture is the most advanced civilisation on Bronze, even the method has been proved much less flawless than that of European Renaissance).

In Europe, particularly in Poland, we also feared that those Russian schollars might take all parts of our research since they are supplied much better in terms of finance.

Ah yes, Lady Fu Hao. Using an article from JSTOR, I wrote a paragraph about her and her tomb in the Wikipedia article for "Shang Dynasty".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shang_Dynasty

Plus, you should like the picture in this link of her tomb:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_Fu_Hao

It's always pleasing to see old Shang bronzes.
Eric (En Rui)

Thank you, Eric!

I always love to look at those old bronze items, especially those wine cups -- Shang people really loved their wines (and, I think, their food)!!! When I am seeing those items, I could almost hear the sounds of their ancient parties of 酒池肉林 (jiu3 chi2 rou4 lin2 - wine lakes and meat forests)!!! One of these days, I want to be a history advisor to some large films (preferably Holliwood films due to big money, or mainland Chinese films due to nice scenics and great food) about Shang dynasty, and I would really love to help them setting up those nice wine lakes and meat forests and help placing those nice looking half or totally naked actors and actresses among the wine lakes and meat forests in strategic locations and positions in the tradition of the movie, Conan the Barbarian (one of my favorite film)!!! I will bet with you that I could do a better job than the person who did the orgy scenes in Conan -- I will definitely be historically accurate and visially pleasing to the 色女 and 色鬼 (people of lustful nature) of the world!!!

Btw, designing movie and theater sets is my passion since childhood, and I can also do fashion design in both modern and ancient styles (I go for historical accuracy first and pleasing to the eyes second, for Chinese/Asian styles as well as the European/Western or other ethnic groups' styles, including Roman and Greeks and Middle Eastern and Native American styles), and I have designed a lot of those for myself and my friends over the years -- I do know a few people who are involved in this area both in U.S. and in Taiwan, and I and my family members and friends love to stage plays for ourselves and for our community groups. Both my mother and I could dress up and play the male roles very, very well (we know how to walk, behave and speak like men or boys), and my mother had dressed my elder half brother up as a girl (with pictures to show) when he was very young -- My elder brother was a beautiful girl in my mom's home made dresses!!! He was more beautiful than me in my childhood (and much, much cuter)!!! :cry^ My brother would deny all knowledge of such things even with pictures in front of him!!!

I am not sure about why you said the Chinese scholars feared to be called "Sinocentrists" -- I am not quite sure about this term and how it is used in your part of the world!? I know a lot of the Western scholars accuse/accused Chinese scholars in both Western Universities and Chinese Universities to be too bias due to their Chinese heritage, especially when the Western or non-Chinese scholars were losing battles in certain scholarly debates due to the non-Chinese scholars' lack of accurate historical or cultural knowledge in ancient (or modern) China or lack of accurate language skills in the classical Chinese or the ancient writing styles, expecially the Oracle bones writings!!! I heard and read of enough of such politically charged (academics also have a lot of school politics!!!) and unfair accusations, and I and many of my fellow Chinese scholars (especially my father's professor friends in Taiwan and their peers) are/were very angry about it, but we could not do anything about it because, as Chinese, we are the suspects of being bias without the real evidences!!! It is why I always make sure I engage in such discussions anywhere I encounter it -- I will/would NOT let such inaccuracy of Chinese historical facts be spread in main stream Western academic and non-academic world!!!



I have encountered a lot of the similar problems with the interesting Marxists' claims in modern historical research books published from or by mainland Chinese scholars!!! I have learned to ignore such claims that show up at the end of each chapter in earlier (prior to 1995) books or show up at the end of the whole book (after to 1995 or so)!!! I have no problems if the Marxists' claims are really relevent in the lay out of the theories in these books, but I really do NOT like it when the Marxists' claims really interfere with the real scholarly researches!!!



I am very glad that you know that. One could really NOT help those, who insist on coming to hasty conclusions based on very inaccurate and limited facts, to come to more accurate conclusions. It has nothing to do with one's intelligence or knowledge or formal trainings or professional degrees or social/academic status or reputations, and it has everything to do with one's attitudes towards history or facts or fairness, etc. I am really not saying this with an attitude of judgment because I DO understand where those attitudes are coming from -- The last 100 years of Chinese (or world) history really taught us why.

Personally, I believe a person could and should change his/her own attitudes when he and she learns better facts or better way or better attitudes. In addition, I sincerely believe that truth, facts, fairness, equality, and unbias (or try to be as unbias as possible) opinions and attitudes should be more important than one's own pride, ego, status, reputation, career, future, life, family, (and race, ethnic pride, ethnic group, nation, and national pride), etc. However, that is my own opinion and my own standard as a historian and a scholar, and I DO NOT hold such standards besides my own self (I DO, however, respect very much others who hold the same standards for themselves).



Do not fear such things. When one has a will, one has a way. Many historians in Chinese history did not have the backings of big money nor powerful people (government or large academic organizations), but they became great historicans in Chinese history. Among them, there was Sima Qian and his Shi Ji of very controversial writings about Han Emperors' and powerful Han nobilities' behaviors that were border on treason and could have gotten him and his whole family killed horribly!!!

In my understanding of Poland and Polish history and Polish people, you have NEVER bowed down to any outside power or influences throughout the history, so why should that attitude change now that you are an independent nation again -- just like Madame Curie and her peers had wished so many years ago!? Btw, because of Madame Curie and her biographies, I totally admire the courage of Polish people and have felt great happiness with Polish people when you became an independent nation again (away from the Soviet Union)!!! I thought it was all worth it for Madame Curie and her teachers and friends who hid their teachings and studying of Polish language and history away from the Russian principals and officials!!! I thought of Chinese under the occupations of Japanese government and the many sacrifices of Chinese underground soldiers and fighters and government officials and civilians (my own parents and many of my friends' parents, grandparents and great grandparents were among them), and I totally associate Chinese with the Polish people and hope that we will have as much of a happy ending as the modern day Polish people -- NOT in the sense of getting rid of the current governments (Taiwan's, Singapore's, or mainland Chinese) in any form, but in the sense of able to have our people to vote freely for their leaders free of ANY inside or outside interferences!!!

I really did LOL at that! Well, you certainly know how to blackmail him for anything, huh?

Eric (En Rui)

He did a very wise thing -- He always ignore such blackmails! Since he is 6' tall while I am 5'4 and NOT very athletic and he is about 250 - 280 pounds of solid muscle and was trained in Kungfu and has a black belt in Karate or Judo (I am not quite sure which) as well as 9 years older than me and has an extremely serious and sensitive and easily offended nature ..., I really would NOT push it or him with those excellent photos and blackmailing materials even though I am the bratty younger sister with Wenzhou pirates' (or mountain bandits') heritage -- just in case I could be killed, literally -- He was also army trained (the Taiwanese policy of drafting, you know)!!!

I apologise first, Fireball, for saying Chinese schollars fear to be called Sinocentrism. By that I mean while valuable Chinese schollars who have (some nearly all their lives dedicate to their respectful researches) receives that unfair title, perhaps in return for the call of eurocentrism. In England and France, I think we respect Chinese culture since powerful understandings have been shed light. Yet in Russia,...