Hello everyone! Sun Tzu's Art of War is no doubt among China's greatest works. One of the ironies of The Art of War is how often Sun Tzu emphasizes winning without fighting. Although he does show the reader how to fight if he or she must, you still get a sense that the result one should strive for is peace. I call it "finding balance in the midst of chaos." One can even argue that Sun Tzu teaches us more about how to achieve peace than how to conduct war. What do you all think?

Yes! One needs to use good strategies to achieve peace more so than to win wars!!!

It's a philosophy of winning without putting a fight. The 'peace' that we talk in this case is an ideal case of avoiding direct conflict. Thus the trick is to win but yet avoiding any form of direct conflict at the lowest cost as possible. How you achieve that is the wisdom shown in Sun Tzu's Art of War. If winning is not possible, escape will be the best strategy.

The trick to keep peace, one must give your enemy a way to accept his loss and still be able to save face.

If you give your opponent no way out he will be forced to attack.

Thank you all for your replies

I personally find too many readers of Sun Tzu's Art of War emphasize the deception aspect while failing to comprehend the reason behind the deception: to end the war as quickly as possible. This subtlety escapes many readers but I'm glad you all here understand the real art of war. Bravo!

ThomasHunyhn,

I'm glad to have you as one of our members in CHF.

Btw, I think deception is only one of the 'methods' of Sun Tzu. The ultimate objective of Sun Tzu's Art of War is to win a war in the shortest time and at the lowest cost (the ideal case is without even fighting).

This is shown in Sun Tzu's words:

不战而屈人之兵，善之善者也！
(Winning a war without even fighting, this is the best among the best)

That's why you will see that in Sun Tzu's Art of War, siege warfare (i.e. attacking a city by force) is always placed as the last resort (least encouraged) since siege warfare would incur a higher cost of casualty and dragging a longer time in war. The upper most strategy (most encouraged) used by Sun Tzu is for one to attack the enemy's strategy (上兵伐谋）, since that will help to outwit the enemy's strategy, forcing the enemy to be in a losing position. The emphasis on "速战速决" (quick war quick outcome) is what characterized Sun Tzu.

Before formulating a strategy, you will have to do some form of calculation (as emphasizing in Sun Tzu's 1st Chapter Calculation 计篇). It's like doing a research and collecting as much intelligence as possible so that you can 'calculate' or predict the outcome of war when comparing yourself against the enemy. Only by knowing your enemy, intelligence and surrounding information, you will then be able to come up with a more effective strategy. This was what is emphasized in Sun Tzu's 知己知彼，百战不殆 (know thy enemy and yourself, fight a war without tiring).

The stategy used should aim to outwit the enemy (deception being only one of the methods). It includes psychological (mind) warfare, using spies etc.

If a war can even be ended without even fighting, then it is the best art of war.

You will realize that cold war is the best classic example of how US uses Sun Tzu's Art of War to end it without fighting, and forcing communism to collapse. Ultimately, US wins the war without putting a 'real fight/battle' with USSR and is a classical example of the wisdom shown in Sun Tzu's Art of War.

Welcome and congratulations ThomasHunyhn!

I will definitely go over and take a look of your website. I am a Sunzi fan. I think his ultimate goal is a win-win situation for all around because it would be better to have friends and allies than to have enemies. However, if pressed, he would rather NOT to resort to war at all because that would cause a lot of damages on resources of one's own country. The best method to win the battle is to prevent the battle or war in the first place. A nation should be strong enough or at least appear to be strong enough to scare away any attackers or would be attackers. A nation should be unified under one clear goal and one clear leadership (be it a king, an Emperor, a President, a Premier, a Prime Minister, or a Congress) and a unified voice/opinion from people for a specific policy -- It should not be one voice in a tyrannical way, but one voice in a democratic way -- When people are not forced to say the same thing against their wills, the foundation of the nation would be much more solid and not easily shaken!!!

When a nation has a clear leadership, clear goals, one voice among the people and the government, it would be very hard to attack such nation even if it is small and seemingly weak. Taiwan was like that at one time, same as China. Taiwan became one of the 4 little dragons of Asia, and China (although due to the early problems, a bit later) became strong as well. Both cases were the classical examples of what Sunzi had talked about.

I am currently reflecting on my own family history in the last 100 years (my father was born in 1909) and have done a lot of thinking in this area (of Sunzi, Chinese governments, Chinese politics, Chinese people, Chinese history, and Chinese culture in general). My thought is that Chinese should learn more about our old wisedom tested through thousands of years of time and trial -- They are definitely not as backward or out of fashion as many younger generations have thought and definitely very useful in the modern world in many areas of politics, international relations, corporations, business, finances, even Computer Science. Personally, I used a lot of Art of War methods and other methods and wisdom taught by Chinese old masters in my profession of System Engineering in very large scale projects for various Fortune 500 companies, like Walmart, United Airline, Fedex, DHL, Hudson's Bay Company, etc. I found, in my close to 20 years of System Engineering and Western Corporation experiences, that the old Chinese wisdom like Art of War had been extremely useful and helpful for my personal career (and my husband's after I gave him some advices), both of my personal and professional relationships (family, friends, professional peers, bosses, and clients), as well as my own emotional and psychological well being. I found myself saner with these old Chinese teachings than if I am without!!!

I dunno if it's the best example, the US was put into deep deep debt that it still hasn't escaped from. Yes, direct war was avoided, but you still had proxy events like Korea and Vietnam. Though I guess any outcome other than 'nuclear holocaust' is a good one heheh




Taking a class that covers the canons of East Asia, it's very modern, really. The basis of western modern philosophy can be seen as them obtaining the learnings of Chinese philosophers.

I have a few thoughts.

First, I think Sun Tzu when talking about war, he is talking about war in the sense above mere fighting soldiers on the field, deploying armies on the map, positioning generals in the court, but war as a philosophy. Thus, he is a master of conflict, as one expects of a 兵家, as one expects of a 纵横家. They thrive on conflict, they thrive on nations not at peace. When there are peace, Sun Tzu will be unemployed, and as all philosophers in China, that is one thing they hate.

I always thought that when pointing out the cost of war, it was not his intention to say that peace is greater war, but rather the price of failure of war is far greater then the price of a failed peace. He points out many times the expense one need to field an army, [a Roman once said the rich man is only rich if he can filed an army for 3 month, I suppose Brutus was indeed the richest man in Rome...] the necessity of preparation and requirement of mentality. But I find it difficult to find a 兵家 not promoting his school of thoughts; we already have 墨家, and since Sun Tzu was never considered one, we can safely assume he is interested in war and winning a war and not favoring peace over war.

From his time when wars were as constant as daily tea, it is hard to find a situation when one can find peace without using force. There are many cases where 纵横家 have done more then any military man could ever achieve; thus I think in Art of War, he mention that before resolving to use of arms, 上兵伐谋，其次伐交，其次伐兵，其下伐城。I do not think he is implying we should be trying to find peace before all else, since all of these 谋 involving beating your enemy. They are not about resolving conflicts, but resolving conflicts by either beating your enemies using 谋Trickery ［阴／阳, I find that 阳谋would be more like trickery that was meant to be see while 阴谋was more of trickery not meant to be see］,or diplomacy [not by resolving conflicts with your enemies, but reaching alliance with your enemies' enemies], then it is beating their armies, then it is taking their cities.

Conflict of weapons are often the weakest form of strength. I always find that 兵家 prefer to win a battle without drawing blood. It, I think, was more of beating your enemies without shedding blood [by either means of trickery of bleeding your enemy to death, or provoke wars amongst your enemies' enemy and spread fire to your enemy] rather then reaching a peace by resolving conflict b/w two nations.

US was no longer in debt by the time Clinton leave office.

Welcome to CHF!

Is it better to know Sz AoW or the entire set of the seven classics?

I will certainly be buying your book Thomas Huynh.

Welcome to CHF. I hope you'll have the time to share your insights on topics here.

Best wishes

Hi WangEnlai.

It depends on what the knowledge is going to be used for, and what the stakes are.

I agree with Master Ghost Valley. However, I always believe that more knowledge would make a person have better understanding of what he/she has known.

At this moment, I want to know how to use Strategy principles in a complete way.

Instead of these general answers that everyone gives, I want detailed answers. In previous entries, our great leader General Zhaozi told us that Sunzi Art of War was all we need. My readings tell me that we need a balance of all Seven Classics and a few others. Who is right and who is wrong. I am so confused. Can anyone tell me?

Hi WangEniai

I can only speak for myself. But "to know how to use the strategy principals in a complete way", one has to earn that ability by expending time, energy, and whatever else it takes to learn, study, and learn some more.

What little knowledge I have gained has been through just plain hard work. I have read and compared more than seven different translations of Sun Tzu, Have studied the thesis written by General Sam Griffith which serves as the base for his translation, I study Han Fei Tzu, I sent away for and study and compare graduate school dissertations on Master ghost Valley (four of them) and I communicate with others on this forum who have extensive and more complete knowledge than I. And more often than not, feel as confused as you say you are.

WangEniai, if I knew how to accomplish what you seem to want to accomplish by any other way, I would, in an instant do it.

So if you want to learn the answers to your questions, I know of no better way than to start reading, do not be discouraged, many times when I wonder why I seem to have such a hard time learning I think of the following observation made by a very wise man:

" There are in All -Under-Heaven three truths: first,that even wise men find unattainable tasks: second , that even strong men find immovable objects: and third that even brave men find invincible opponents."...........so saith my virtual councilor Han Fei Tzu.

So good luck......and if you find a better way, please let me know.

After spending time surfing our site and his site, seeking the essence of strategy. I learned a lot from him. Since he is here, I want to learn from ThomasHuynh, the real expert from Sonshi, I want to know the similarities and differences between Sunzi AoW and the Seven Miliatry Classics of Ancient China.

I would suggest reading all seven. However, without spoiling it for you, you'll quickly learn after having read all seven why exactly Sun Tzu's The Art of War is the most popular and still relevant today.

Thank you all for your comments and warm welcome. I'm happy to be part of China History Forum; what a terrific place. If you have any questions for me about Sun Tzu's The Art of War, feel free to ask, and I'll do my best to answer them.