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China History Forum, Chinese History Forum > Chinese History Topics > Ancient Chinese Arsenal
Jimayo
I've been looking for information on the origins of the sword in china. Wiki says about 1600 B.C. but then they say 1300 B.C. for europe and that's way off.

So I was wondering if anyone has any good sources on that.
General_Zhaoyun
According to http://www.xici.net/b12679/d11377799.htm, the earliest chinese green-bronze sword was forged around the Shang dynasty era.

The earliest chinese sword 'discovered from archaeological excavation' sofar was the short green-bronze sword (Qing tong Jian 青铜剑) from the Western Zhou period. This was based on archaeological excavation at the Western Zhou tomb excvation, Shan'xi Province Chang'an County Zhang Jiapo, where a liuye Shape Short Bronze sword (柳叶形青铜短剑) was excavated.

But, according to http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/8929643.html?si=1, most scholars regarded that the short chinese sword was not a unique invention by the chinese. Instead, it was influenced or could have originated from the northern nomadic tribes in northern and north western part of China.

If you can read chinese, you can refer to the following chinese source:

《史林杂识》 "Shiling Zhashi" by Gu Jie 顾颉
《说剑丛稿》 "Shuojian Conggao" by Ma Mingda马明达
《青铜剑的渊源》 'Origin of Bronze Sword' by Li Xueqing 李学勤

In chinese records, there was a chinese legendary sword "xuanyuan Golden Sword 轩辕黄金剑" from the Xia dynasty.
Altaica Militarica
QUOTE (General_Zhaoyun @ Mar 10 2008, 10:20 PM) *
In chinese records, there was a chinese legendary sword "xuanyuan Golden Sword 轩辕黄金剑" from the Xia dynasty.


Regarding to the researches of late Prof. Vyatkin, the swords of Zhou Wu-wang in "Shi ji" (which he used to behead Yin Zhou Xin) are the latest addition and modernization of text made by Sima Qian. So in this case we should assume that Xia swords are legendary things.
Altaica Militarica
News about the topic:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-01...ent_6399567.htm
Kenneth
QUOTE (Jimayo @ Mar 10 2008, 12:15 PM) *
I've been looking for information on the origins of the sword in china. Wiki says about 1600 B.C. but then they say 1300 B.C. for europe and that's way off.

So I was wondering if anyone has any good sources on that.

Although there is a Shang character for dao (knife) the Shang "swords" should not really be called as such in English as the word is used less precisely in Chinese (both dao & jian) when most would be called daggers at best. The earliest Shang 'swords' are either like a curved single edged knife which looks like a utility blade more than a weapon or a more fearsome broad/heavy cleaver. These are short weapons around 30cm long at best. The Shang 'dao' is not really a sword to my eye nor are the charioteers knives 'jian'. The Shang 'dao' was a dead end, not used after this time and not related to the swords that appeared later.
This period would not be considered the origin of the sword although linguistically the character for dao sword (as in short handled weapon) exists at this time there is no functional comparison in the weapon.
In the West Zhou short double edged daggers also called 'jian' appear, and some are certainly influenced by steppes style knives (as where some Shang weapons too). While these are double edged the weapons are not much more than 30cm at this time. The more unique West Zhou/Chinese style is the double edged knife with a short tang to attached to a hilt.
While the Shang weapons are a dead end, and go nowhere, the West Zhou weapons gave birth to true swords.
The West Zhou jian should not be called 'swords' in English since it suggests a size of weapon rather than just a blade type (double-edged jian).
In the late Spring and Autumn period this is where rather more commentators suggest (and I agree) a sword appears in China. By the late 6th & early 5th century BC a form of double edged jian appeared which was an excellent cut and thrust sword with a cross gaurd and a integral hilt. While many are less than 50cm there is enough weight and the design is good enough to be considered a true short sword as opposed to a knife. These are double edged and roughly similar to the gladius. The heavier versions with broad blades or the longer (50 to even 65 cm) East Zhou swords are of a size to kill with a cutting strike and are well designed.
The Warring States period is the first time where the sword becomes an important weapon as opposed to a self-defense or secondary blade (like earlier 'jian'). Iron long swords, and then bronze longswords, appear at this time too.
While people talk of earlier 'jian' there needs to be a consideration of form and functional rather than entomology.
It remains a fact true swords have a longer history in the West (bronze rapiers and longswords)and Wiki does not give a good account of swords evolution in China. I would knock back the swords appearance to the East Zhou period.
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