Looking at today's world map, Russia, with its power base in Moscow in Europe, dominates the whole of northern Asia.

Why didn't the Chinese colonise northern Aisa / Siberia like they did the west (Xinjiang, Tibet etc)? Did Chinese dynasties send explorers to these part of Asia?

Despite the hostile climate and the inhospitable conditions which made these territories unappealing, why wasn't China interested in territorial expansion unlike the Russians, who were much farther away and arguably more alien to this part of Asia?

The north was bounded by mongolia and manchuria which were both trying to conquer china.

Furthermore, the extreme cold is a real turnoff for the han chinese who are more comfortable with the temperate climate.

Anywhere above the Heilongjiang river is considered inhospitable in ancient times due to lack of technology unlike the present where we have railways, planes etc.

Most Chinese were never interested in areas outside the great wall. Those areas were never suitable to our rice growing culture. All we were interested was trade. Try growing rice in the Altay Mountains, you get a desert in 10 years.

Somehow our northern neighbours from Mongolia and Manchuria always wanted to invade us probably because they heard we had good seafood . They even did the territorial expansion for us thus Tibet, ET, NM and Inner Manchuria came under our realm. But if not for their conquest of us and assimilated, most of us cared little about the grasslands of Central Asia. We rather face our warm south sea

The emperor Kangxi once planned an abandonment of Taiwan simply since the Chinese there were not easy to levy tax. He wanted the people there to be immigrated into mainland China. This plan was called off by fearing the abandoned Taiwan island would be the base of Dutch once again to molest and loot the coastal areas. This is just one case to show how different the Chinese think with their western counterparts.

Exploration and colonisations are different things. Exploration and commercial expansion often takes place along trade routes (ie long distance trade routes), in China those trade routes went westwards and southwards, but there never was significant long distance trade through Siberia.

As for colonisation, it depends how far back you look. Actually, a point could be made that the northern steppe was colonised by chinese before the south, ie at the end of the warring states. After that, most demographic expansion happened southwards, so I don't think there was any need to expand to the west or north, which had rougher climates (and restive and violent locals...)

I don't think it can be said that there was colonisation in Tibet and Xinjiang, until very recenly, and then, there is also a fast growth of chinese communities in the Russian Far East.

Francois

By which area did you mean by the northern steppes?

The areas corresponding to modern northern Shanxi and Inner Mongolia, inside the northern walls of Zhao and Qin. Those correspond to an expansion of China during the late Spring and Autumns and early Warring States, and were most certainly settled by colonists, as the presence of the walls imply.

Francois

You mean Shaanxi and not Shanxi? Because the Shanxi walls run along its border with Inner Mongolia. But the Shaanxi walls also run almost along the Inner Mongolia also. Inner Mongolia as it name implies are not historically considered part of Han Chinese settlement area.
BTW, I thought the walls were meant as a deterrence which can help slow down the attacks of the northern nomads. They are not meant as a boundary line.

Anyway, the reason Cnina did not colonise Siberia is because it's so cold! Chinese people likes warmer climate where one can grow wheat or rice and land free of frost. Ask any northern Chinese whether they like the cold weather of Dongbei (or Manchuria) an area not even as cold yet as Siberia. You almost always get the uninanimous answer: No!

Exploration and commercial expansion often takes place along trade routes (ie long distance trade routes), in China those trade routes went westwards and southwards, but there never was significant long distance trade through Siberia.

Why is it for the Russians, who are based in Europe, have the interest in territorial expansion into the whole of northern Asia through to Alaska, if trade (god and gold) were not the primary objectives? Is it everywhere else were colonised by the Portuguese, Spaniards, Dutch, British, French, Germans, Belgians, Italians etc, and the Russians were slow starters?

I tend to agree that the Chinese never were interested in the lands north of the great wall as suggested. But were there any Chinese explorers to these parts since antiquity?

I'm no specialist in russian history, but my impression is that northern Asia was, for the Russians, just like southern china was for the Han (or the West was for the USA): an area where demographic expansion could happen. Not all countries could do this, of course, Spain, Portugal, France, Britain, etc... had no such "frontier" they could push away, to provide room for their demographic expansion. hence the colonies...

Personally, I would suspect that colonialism is not a "cultural trait" of some nations, but rather a very obvious consequence of geography. (And of course, I understand many nations which are, rightly, proud not to have a colonial past would disagree with me... but still!)

Francois

It was the natural direction that Russia would expand in. Remember Russia did not have access to the Atlantic Ocean so you are right in your speculation. Russia had always wanted to get a warm water ocean facing port. Vladivostok is as close as it had got and that was arguably taken from our Manchu Qing conquerors. 80% of Russia's lands east of the Urals can be arguably described as occupied. Rather like China's outside the Great Wall and up to the Tibetan plateau.

Does this now give you a hint why Russia and China are such strategic partners?

Its the Giant Bear teaming up with the Croc in fur coat. Gobbling everything up in its way. ;-)

Its the Giant Bear teaming up with the Croc in fur coat. Gobbling everything up in its way. ;-)

Ah, to the Americans, Russia selling Alaska to the US is probably one of the best real estate deals of all time..........


but my impression is that northern Asia was, for the Russians, just like southern china was for the Han (or the West was for the USA): an area where demographic expansion could happen

We talked about the hostile climate and the inhospitable environment. Would it be more of a strategic and territorial expansion rather than demographic?

We talked about the hostile climate and the inhospitable environment. Would it be more of a strategic and territorial expansion rather than demographic?

Yes and somewhere in this get a nice warm water ocean facing port. Russia is having problems even populating its European based citizens into these lands. Therefore, you have probably heard lots of Chinese moving into these areas. This is because Russia sees these migrants that it is importing will dilute the native population of these occupied areas more. These migrants won't go against Russia. Thus it helps to democratically deny possibility of these regions seeking independence even if they ever allow a regional referendum on self determination.

Are you saying Russia welcomes Chinese migrants to places like the Russina Maritime? I thought they are quite uncomfortable because they are worried the place will become more "Asian" rather than "European". You hear Putin complaining that the place will be speaking Chinese, Korean and Japanese instead of Russian and is trying hard to convince "European" Russian into the Maritime region.

That's the Ming wall, which ran south of the Ordos desert. The Zhao wall, which was later incorporated into the Qin wall, ran north of the great loop of the Yellow River, past present-day Baotou and Hohhot.



Again, that is the function of the Ming walls, but scholars now increasingly see the Zhao and Yan walls as products of encroachment into the territory of nomads, since Zhao and Yan originally did not control the areas in which the walls were built.

Anyway, the Great Wall should not be relevant to this topic at all. There were numerous periods in Chinese history when the Wall was irrelevant and allowed to crumble, and did not demarcate the northern frontier - for example, the Tang and Qing empires.



I would argue that economics is the main issue here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Siberia

There was a big market in Russia for furs with which to make coats and hats. The Chinese did not have such a high demand for it, and could get the furs they needed through trade with Manchurian tribes.

Su Wu spent many years herding sheep on the shores of Lake Baikal. But he wasn't there by choice! The Xiongnu were detaining him there.

Actually, the Xiongnu factor brings up another important point. Most Chinese empires that weren't built by nomadic peoples were not able to even colonize the Mongolian steppe, because their administrative structures were built on the registration and taxation of sedentary populations, and not suited to controlling nomads. So how could they get any further north than the steppe?

Off course Russia would prefer to settle its European citizen into these lands. However, its not as easy as that especially in these times. People like Putin knows what he must show in public. But he and Russia knows what is it best options strategically.

The presence of Chinese migrants to Far East and Siberian Russia was completely the decision of Russian government.

I think the native locals in these areas have the most grievances towards their presence because they know these migrants have come to dilute their indigenous population and are likely to be pro-Russia.

You can't colonize an area you can't conqure, china was not militarily strong enough back then to conqure and hold manchuria and mongolia let alone siberia.

As before, the problem is not military strength but economics. Han and Tang expeditionary armies were able to go deep into the steppe and inflict heavy damage on nomadic empires, driving the nomads to retreat westwards or northwards. But holding the captured steppe territory with forts or cities and garrisons would have been extremely expensive, since the soil is not suited to farming and any supplies have to be transported from a long distance away. The nomadic empires didn't have this problem because their control of the steppe was not based on territory but rather on securing and retaining the loyalty of the tribes who used that territory for herding. That is why the Eastern Han and Tang empires could only exert some control over the steppe indirectly through Xianbi and Tiele tribes that were allied to them (or officially vassals of the emperor).

The case of Manchuria is a little different from the steppe. From the Liaodong region one has two possible directions in which to expand: northwards into the northeastern plain of Jilin and Heilongjiang, or eastwards into north Korea. Both areas have arable land suited to agrarian settlement, but for some reason, the Western Han, Sui, and Tang empires chose to expand only into Korea. I am not sure why; maybe someone could offer an explanation?

The whole NE area is not really rice growing territory, its OK for corn which is what they grow a lot of in Jilin. The winters up there are very cold. In fact the whole of China above the Yellow river really freezes.

The Korean penisula approach from the Southern coastal side has slightly more temperate climate because of it smaller land mass and coastal region but its still cold.....

The NE China area can be considered as Inner Manchuria. Outer Manchuria which is now Russian occupied, the environment is even less suitable for our style of agriculture.

The core section of explorers who attempted to conquest Siberia were the Cossacks. They were initially in dispute with both Tsarist authority and Polish monarchy. Apart from waging wars against these two enemies, many Cossack community sought to develop their relationship with Tsar and even cooperated with the monarchy to obtain peace. One of their solution was to plunder into far-reaching Siberian expedition. The Cossacks themselves were already steppe nomads, thus their lifestyle helped Russians to counter-attack the constant harassment of Siberian tribes. The thriving profit attracted other people such as the Yarmuk, and so the conquest comes into view.

China did not have such a social force.

There was actually a very systematic process of colonization in Xinjiang that began in the Western Han around 100 BCE. Several colonies were set in Lun Tai, and served as a rest stop for Han armes and envoys. Several posts were then created later; the protector general, the Mao Yi Xiao Wei(in charge of agriculture), and the Xi Yu Zhang Shi. The Former Liang was the first to turn Turfan into a Commandery, and the Tang also made Turfan into a prefecture. The rest of xinjiang was not directly incorporated into the bureaucratic administration, but were supervised by agricultural colonies and garrisons near them.



Interestingly, the Yuan was the first dynasty which colonized Mongolia by establishing a military garrison in Karakorum. As Arthur Waldron points out, if a China based regime really wants to spent its resource to control the nomads, they could do it and the Yuan is a great example. Yet the Ming resorted to the old Chinese mentality of securing China first instead of wasting resources on the steppe. Even though Hong Wu established 8 garrisons in inner Mongolia, Zhu Di withdrew most of them.
Other than the Yuan, the Han was the first dynasty which made the attempt to turn Outer Mongolia into a province, when the Xiongnu rebelled in 10 AD Wang Mang declared that their entire state be made into a province and mustered a force of 300,000 to march north and destroy them. But before that army could move, rebellion broke out and the entire army disintegrated. The Tang did make Outer Mongolia into a jimi protectorate, briefly establishing the pacified north protectorate in Otugen, capital of the former Tujue empire, and even established a road that channeled the place with Chang An where Tang envoys would be sent north of the Gobi periodically to collect tribute. The Qing dynasty was the most successful regime in regards to the control of Mongolia. It zoned the entire region into banners and forbid each tribe to move beyond their designated banner. The Qing's success might have a lot to do with the changing social structure of Mongolia itself when Lamaism was introduced.



Manchuria might have some arable lands, but they are far too few. Jilin and Heilongjiang have lots of woodlands and wetlands. They are also too cold for any large amount of farmlands. Other than a few population centers, like in Haerbing and Mudang river, most of the vast territory of these two provinces were uninhabited. It wasn't until the Jin that heilongjiang gained any significance in international politics. Dynasties prior to that might have simply neglected it because it was not worth the effort.

What tempted the Cossacks to venture deep into Siberia? What were the "thriving profits" that the Chinese didn't see that make this economic viable. And were Cossacks numerous? Because one of the reasons why the north beyond Manchuria was untenable for the sedentary Chinese empires, besides the harsh climate, was that it was costly to defend and maintain control over such a massive territory. How were the Cossacks able to do it, and with that ensured that the Russians are owners of the huge territory that overshadows northern Asia?

I have already explained. They sought to escape from Russian monarchy. Their growing tension with Tsar is the core reason. The thriving profit is their liberty, and fur trade, which is something had long been restricted in the area of Ulkraine and the so-called Belorussia. Economic structure in a Cossack communities was indeed self-sufficient due to the isolation from Tsarist regimes. They were also constantly threatened by the Turkish clans, as well as other small armies groups of Ottoman Empire.



Harsh climate in Siberia was not encumber to the Cossacks. Their traditional living places were already harsh enough. They was raised just like other steppe nomads. Their self-sufficiency was the key to quick adaption. Russian poets were inspired by their endurance, thus now you could find various verses in Kazakhstan, Uzebekistan and other former Soviet constituents. Perhaps, you could do some homeworks upon studying how the Cossacks managed to control the vast area such as Ulkraine and Belorussia, I don't know since most documents were in Russian. The combination of both Russian Boyars and Cossacks provided each group ventured in each expedition the advantage of flexibility in their military planning, as well as their constant contact with Moscou. Furthermore, the lifestyle of Cossacks and Siberian tribes were not too different. Intermarriage happened quite often after the first expedition. In fact, assimilation is what happened to Cossacks and Yarmuks who attempted to extend to Siberia. Boyars were those who were loyal to the Tsarist monarchy. They thus ensured the Russian control over such a huge territory. It must be said that the policy in exploring the Siberian lands was unlike Chinese. No ensurance that Russian Tsar would had the lands conquered by Cossacks. However, in order to maintain a good relationship, Cossacks still became the Russian "Subjects". They indeed enjoyed political freedom for a long time, before some reforms of Catherine The Great occured, which unified the whole country together.

In some senses, Russian expedition was quite similar to the Spanish invasion to the New World. But for most cases, they were essentially different due to the motivation.

Between Siberia and China lived for thousands of years China's strongest enemies. Asking why China never colonized Siberia is like asking why Germany never conquered Spain.

Hah! Good one. Also, what would the Tang, Song, Yuan, Ming, and Qing have seen in a vast region with unknown benefits in resources beyond immediate timber (although one should keep in mind that a large part of Siberia is also barren tundra)? With the necessity of conquering northern nomads, who are by definition incapable of being besieged as they are constantly on the move and prone to evade invading forces by simply moving to another pasture for the time being, I'm sure the Chinese court in all these dynasties were content with the sedentary regions they already had difficulty in administering.

Forgive me if I am ignoring any lengthy and detailed passages given previously by other members, as this is my first post in this thread.

Eric (En Rui)

One more important point which is easily overlooked by the modern mind: ideology.

Chinese courtiers must have looked down on Siberia as an uncivilized, barbarian place, that is as no place to live for Chinese. Kangxi was contemptuous of Taiwan, as he was of the opinion that living on an island was deeply un-Chinese.

The ideology was no need to walk 1000 miles to stand in -40 celsius whether it was civilised or not ;-)

The reverse ideology was lets go somewhere warmer where we can grow some food and settle down. For centuries groups of people from Siberia (Xibe) and Tibet (Tubo and Qiang) have drifted towards the central middle plains and warm seas rather than the other way round.

But when some of the Siberics invaded us, they got us into Tibet. Probably because they rode their horses up there and saw, hey isn't this like our ancestor's home lets take it. These ancestors of ours then melted into our people. Made us even more ugly and scary. Like an alligator with a wolf's head. This legacy means we will never leave Tibet.

I think majorly because the weather's too harsh there

Manchuria is the coldest region of the same latitude in the world. Manchuria is also one of the most fertile region in the world because of its Chernozem earth. Now the three northeastern provinces have 1/6 of farm land in China and produce about 16.6% agricultural products. But the mass immigration to Manchuria（闯关东） started only from Daoguang and Jiajing's(1840s and 1850s) rein in Qing.

The reason, I think, may be three
1. It's extremely cold, life is not easy for new immigrants there.



2. There were always better place to go before late Qing, like the mass immigrants to Jiangnan in Tang or Sichuan in Ming.

3. The major crops grown Manchuria are corn and potato. These crops are imported to China from America only after 16th century.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is Chernozem soil?

I thought Boyars were land owners - petty nobility if you like. Am I wrong here? What was their exact role in facilitating this expansionism?

From Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem

Much obliged. I have learned something.

Siberia probably is too "cold" and the land isn't suitable for farming. That's why the chinese have no interest in the land.

Is there a book of *Chinese descriptions* of the peoples of Siberia?

Apologies for using this thread to ask a question that is only somewhat tied to the thread topic.

Is there a good anthology of Chinese sources on /observations regarding the peoples of Siberia prior to the 19th/20th century ? I know that there are several Qing texts that discuss the peoples and culures of Amurya but I also wonder whether there is something that is a little more comprehensive in its scope.

I ask this question for a friend and it would be especially helpful if the text is also available in English or another modern European language, including Russian. I do know this is a very long shot but thought I would ask here anyway.

Its probably becuase Chinese explorers really never venture that far. So they probably didnt even know it existed (I'm guessing here). Plus China was surrounded by hostile tribes (like from Mongolia).