Are modern day Miao, Yi, and Korean the descendants of ancient Dongyi of northeastern china? I know that the modern day Miao ethnic are descended from ancient Dongyi because Jiuli Kingdom is in Hebei of northeastern china and Liaoning, Heilongjiang, Jilin, Beijing, Tianjing, Shangxi, etc...are the areas where they settled and they have a history of coming from the north, but what about the modern day Yi ethnic? I'm not sure about them because they don't have a history of coming from the north and many articles and scholars say that they have always been living there in Yunnan. Also the modern day Yi ethnic are known as the Man tribe of southwest china to the Miao people. Koreans on the other hand could be descended from ancient Dongyi because after the fall of Jiuli Kingdom, the Jiuli tribes desperse and moved to various places. Any thoughts on this?

The Dongyi tribes are related to each other just like the huaxia tribes are related to each other. Dongyi tribes aka Jiuli tribes or nine eastern tribes were Tai hao shi, Shao hao shi, and later Chiyou's people who's totem is of bird and ox so they are related. The miao ethnic did not exist at that time because they were only known as the Dongyi tribes or eastern tribes who's homeland is in northeastern part of china that includes Hebei, Liaoning, Heilongjiang, Jilin, Beijing, Tianjing, Shangxi, etc...The word Miao only came to existance after the fall of Jiuli Kingdom and the establishment of Sanmiao Kingdom. As far as history of Jiuli tribes goes...after the death of Chiyou and the fall of Jiuli Kingdom, Chiyou's three sons split the tribes into three groups and moved north and south...the second son's group who did not move became part of huaxia...that's why han ethnic today consists of mostly huaxia-dongyi. Chiyou(Jaoji Hwanung) was also said to be the 14th emperor of of Baedalguk of Kuryeo. Interestingly, translating Jiuli into korean means Kuri, which is the nine eastern tribes and the origin for Korea. Also Shinshi or Baedal aka Jiuli in Korea means the city of spirits. In miao language, Jiuli also means the city of spirits.

The following is a bit of info. on Chiyou and his kuryeo people.

Shinshi (Hangeul: 신시, Hanja: 神市) or 'Baedal (Hangul: 배달국, Hanja: 倍達國) in Hwandangogi' was a semi-legendary ancient Korean nation that preceded Gojoseon. Shinshi literally means The City of Spirits where people live together in a protected area or The Fair of Spirit where people come together and exchange their goods.

Samguk Yusa
Hwanung with a group of 3,000 people came down to the shindansu and Hwanung taught the people how to live as a human. Hwanung named the place shinshi.

Gyuwon Sahwa
Gyuwon Sahwa says that Hwanung is same person with Shinshi. Shinshi was the ruler of a nation that succeeded by Gojoseon. He made the manners and cultures of marriage, In addition, he ordered the people to engage in farming and exchange their necessities. Chiwoo, Goshi and Shinshi became the rulers of the nation in turn. The nation continued until Dangun founded Gojoseon which is the first state of Korean.

Shindan Minsa
Shinshi was the era before Baedal-guk era and lasted about 120 years. Baedal-guk era was the same as Gojoseon, which was ruled by Dangun and lasted over 1000 years.

Budoji
After Dangun established Gojoseon, the 6 tribes opened the Shinshi, a kind of feast during which they saluted the sky and sang together in the forest every 10 years. They also opened the choshi(朝市), the market for visiting and the haeshi(海市), the market facing the sea.

Hwandan Gogi
Shinshi state (BC 3898 ∼ BC 2333) was established by Hwanung or Geo Bahl Hwan[1], [2], [3].

Founding of Shinshi State
The founding of Shinshi State is described in somewhat different ways according to the records.(see #Description of Shinshi in Historical Records). Hwandan-Gogi says that Shinshi state had been founded at the area of Baekdu Mountain and Amur River for giving a maximum service of benefit to the people. The capital city was called Shinshi. The legend says that Hwanin (환인,桓因) gave three presents of Cheon Boo and Ihn to Hwanung (환웅,桓雄), and three thousand people had descended from heaven with Hwanung to the area of birch trees. Shinshi state was also known as Guri, and its borders were said to have reached the Shandong Peninsula in modern-day China. The greatest and most renowned of the Shishi state's Emperors was Jaoji Hwanung of Baedal, known better as Emperor Chi-Woo, who was described as a brilliant military leader and strategist. It was during the time of Emperor Chi-Woo that the empire reached its greatest extent. The Shinshi state most likely disintegrated due to internal struggles, and probably fell to neighboring nations.


Government Structure
In addition, there were three imperial families in the Shinshi state, which were Sinsi, Gosi and Chiwoo. Thus, these three families became emperor in the Shinshi state alternatively. The descendants of these three families, thereafter, were divided into nine tribes, which is so called Kuhwan (Gu means nine in Korean). Kuhwan means the nine tribes from Hwanguk, which was a legendary nation of Korea. The word of Kuhwan is sometimes transliterated into other words such as Kuryeo(구려,九黎), Kuyi(구이,九夷) and Koryeo (고려,高黎 or 高麗). Eventually, the words of Kuryeo and Koryeo are the origin of "Korea." There were three representatives of Shinshi state who are Poongbaek , Woosa and Woonsa. The Shinshi state assigned Five Ministers; Wooga managed agriculture, Maga managed the life of people, Guga managed a penalty, Jeoga managed disease, Yangga managed good and evil. These designation names of Five Ministers were quoted from animal names, and they are used as designation names of Ministers in Gojoseon and Buyeo.


Legacy
Shinshi state was succeeded by Gojoseon. Someone assumes that another major legacy of the Shinshi state is the Goguryo. As mentioned earlier, Shinshi was also called Guri, and the word "Goguryeo" can be broken down into Go-Guri, meaning Go(high), Guri. Thus, Goguryoe means "the Higher Guri nation." In addition, Goguryeo is also interpreted as the nation of Guri or Guryeo governed by the family of "Go" because "Go" is the family name of Goguryeo. Indeed, It is written in Samguk Sagi that Goguryeo recovered most of the lost territories previously lost.

This report on mtDNA of Hmong-Mien population is base on the Hmong-Mien population living in Northern Vietnam and other Southeast Asian countries where they are mixed with the Southern tribes for centuries and is not base on the Miao-Yao population living in China. Also throughout the centuries since Hmong people have moved into Southern China and Southeast Asia, they have adopted litterly dozens of childerns from the Southern tribes who were given up for adoption, are orphans, or poor, etc...to become part of there own family. As far as I can remember...Hmong were the only asian ethnic group who actually cared for other asian ethnic groups as they were the only asian ethnic group since the earliest time who have adopted orphans or poor children from other asian ethnic group to become part of there own family. Hmong-Mien maternal DNA is of Southern tribe and Paternal DNA is of Northern tribe. This is due to the han expansion and pushing Miao ethnic Southward where they became mixed with the Man aka Yi tribes and other Southern tribes. Miao ethnic are originally from the north...around Hebei and other northeastern territories to be exact. Take Southern Han for example...there maternal DNA is of Southern and there paternal DNA is of Northern just like Miao ethnic because they moved southward where they married into Southern tribes. This mixture with the Southern tribes for centuries will cause one to have maternal DNA of Southern and Paternal DNA of Northern.

I wonder why they don't do or haven't done DNA analysis on the Hmong people who are born with the recessive gene yet? It would be great if they could do that ASAP. I would really like to know that results.

Chihuangyan, please learn to vary your topic to avoid being labeled. It's a big forum, branch out.

Hound Cry...you TOTALLY walked into that one! (Sorry, sorry. Couldn't resist.) I think you need to practice your arguing skills. The use of large, bold, colored fonts to emphasis your points really only weakens them. It's clear to us all that you have a working brain, now hone your skills. You would be an asset to the forum if you could ratchet it back a lot.

This is your prove on H-M population and their mtDNA? As I have said before thier maternal lineage is of southern and paternal lineage is of northern so it's nothing new and this is due to H-M population moving southward and intermixing with the southern tribes and combining or incorporating southern tribes into H-M population to fight against han expansion. As for proof of Hmong people adopting childerns from southern tribes as they migrate southward...you can ask any Hmong person and they will tell you exactly what I stated above. Also this study shows that H-M population mtDNA consist of 50% of southern, which means that the other 50% is of northern so their mtDNA is not entirely of southern tribes(S. Han, STB, Daic, Zhuang) They also have mtDNA that is of Northern tribes(N. Han, NTB, Altai)as shown by this study. BTW I find this study to be bias as they did not include S. Han and STB in a few of the studies when they cluster 50% H-M with southerners. They stated that S. Han and STB are a mixture of north and south, but so is H-M population. H-M are also a mixture of north and south and they fall between northerners and southerners as shown by this study. This explains the history of Chiyou's Dongyi tribe having conflict with HuangYan's Huaxia tribe in the northern part of china. This also explain H-M population having conflict with Han population and migrating southward where they intermixed with the southern tribes. H-M bare closer affinity with SEAs is mainly due to its similarity to Daic and S. Han as stated in this study, but note that Daic, Zhuang, Dong, Yao, Yi, etc...who are the southern tribes have adopted and assimilated into Miao culture so to say that H-M bare closer affinity with SEAs is due to it's smilarity to Daic and other southern group is kinda bias.

You have done nothing but complain about research that fall short, yet all your arguments appear to be based on your own opinions. So rather than repudiating his sources, cite some of your own. Tell us why these articles are bias and show us the material that have formed your views. Do the work necessary to convince us.

this study only describes the history of hmong/miao who had already moved into the southern areas over 5000 bp after the battle of zhoulu, which took place in the hebei-liaoning area. Thier homeland is in Hebei and other northeastern areas as they were called Dongyi and not Miao at that time so they were of northern origin and moved southward due to han expansion. This study is not base on the entire history of hmong/maio as the scholars assume that the hmong/maio population moved northward from sanmiao kingdom, but in fact they moved southward from Hebei and other northeastern areas and then established sanmiao kingdom in central china. They were again pushed further south into Yunnan and other southern areas after the fall of sanmiao kingdom. There are many articles out there done by chinese and non chinese scholars who agreed and stated that hmong/maio are of northern origin from northeastern china and were pushed southward after the conflict between Huaxia and Jiuli aka Dongyi in the zhoulu mountain area of northeastern china.

Citation needed.

A term that is overused; like, 'black' people. So I think all 'black' people were descendants from native Africans unless they enjoy being 'bleached' black.


I am uncertain Dongyi are from Liaoning and Jilin area; do you have any suggested proof that they are from Manchuria area? And also, from Liaoning to Beijing to Shangxi, that is a very, very, large spread. Do you have other proof to suggest that?


If there are people who live in a cold environment, it is logically understandable if they began migration to southern, more 'welcoming' weather.


Are you saying 彜 people? I thought if they are related, a simple genetic test would point to where they are similiar and when they began to become separate [thus no longer intermarried] genetic pools. Also, archeology would be beneficial. In fast, it is a good PR for CCP, they have some fetish to claim all these people belong to HuaXia group.


Em. Koreans legend do no really follow that. Then, Chinese thinks Koreans are a mix b/w survivors from Shang Dynasty and local natives. So, were that true, they have nothing to do with Jiuli.


You know, when America expand west, we actually expand. That is, we took land from Mexico and Indians who have enough system for me to recognize them as some sort of political entries.
The Han Expansion you are talking about, are almost non-existent simply because most Han doesn't like to leave their home unless they have no choice and when they do, it is generally into land that are farm land and in general empty. Local natives [or if you insist they are your people] either got assimilated or at least place under somewhat autonomous rules but still part of whatever dynasty it was. What ever migration you are talking about are non-government induced. That is to say, Chinese really don't have a Trail of Tear.
At the same time, intermarrying local people expand your gene pool, it doesn't get rid of who you are or what you are. That is why people can trace their lineage all the way up. For that matter, all the way to Eve.


Are you suggesting other culture doesn't adopt children? There are plenty of people [famous or not] who were adopted children.


After I read the article that was posted, I believe that either was not the entire article or a poorly done article if it is the whole thing. However, you can't pick and use what suites your purpose.
For example, 45% (MHN) to 90% (YDB) belong to S.E.A category. So, no, not 50% of population belong to southern; in different groups that are uniquely independent [if they are not uniquely independent, then they shouldn't get their own marks] the largest southern group are 90% southern and the smallest is 45% southern. That suggests some migration movement from N. to S. but I think many people migrated from N. to S. due to several reason ranging from pre-historic reasons to nomadic reasons to agriculture reasons to technological advances.
In fact, I don't think this study support either side of the arguments.


No, this study clearly states, in multiple areas, [it does not imply its correctiveness nor its unbiasedness] that H-M are southerners; they are not at all N. Which leads me to the question of why the hell are we using 'southerner' and 'northerner' as these two words are so ambiguous that who so ever use these terms in even informal academic discussions should be berated at best.



What? Does Homo sapiens's migration from Africa indicates some sort of conflict? How does migration of any kind tell you anything? You may suspect, until you have proof, you can only suspect.


I am quite certain that I couldn't tell the difference b/w a Miao and a Zhuang or a Yi, for that matter, I might not even tell a Han from them. I am quite certain to tell you that they are not assimilated into Miao, and they are not Miao.

i remember that Kong tzu learn a lot from the Dong yi culture.One of the most important teaching ren 仁。Someone said he absorb this idea from Dongyi.And one of the famous official name jizi 箕子。was expelled to korea

Actually Dongyi first appeared in Chinese History only to describe barbarian people in the East (in Eastern China only) and did not include tribes in Korean peninsula and Japan islands.

Hua culture intermingled / interbred with Dongyi culture. A good discussion on Dongyi culture inherited by Han Chinese has taken place in CHF a few years ago.

Refer here in CHF :

Dongyi culture inherited by Han Chinese

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1635

Great post and information here. If you ever find any more info on the highlighted part, please share with us.

Did Dongyi people build the Shang Dynasty?
Did Dongyi people build the Qin Dynasty?

Definitely not the Qin dynasty, as Qin was on the Western side of the Sinosphere in its day. Dongyi were on the eastern side.

The Shang were supposed to be from the east too, so a relationship between the Shang and some DongYi is more plausible. I say "some" because there was no unified DongYi entity; just various non-civilized tribes called DongYi among other names because they lived to the east of the peoples who called them by that name.

The Shang people called themselves Shang, never say that they were Dongyi which is a term invented later in history.
Shang people called tribes in the east or south-east China the Yi or Yi Fang. They themselves with other Yi people ( nine tribes of them) had these similar myths that their ancestor got born from a woman who had eaten an egg dropped by a black bird. Black bird is Yi peoples' totem. Shang as a Yi people reside at the down stream area of Yellow river .


The Qin people although was from west China also had this Black Bird totem myth. The people or the ruling class may had links the Yi people from the East.